How to Use Vanguard?

[Ethrion]

While the IC's remain joined in the Vanguard squad, it counts as a single squad.

It's not a Vanguard squad with two separate IC squads attached. THe IC's become part of the Vanguards.

As a single squad, it benefits from Shrike's special rule.

Except the Chaplain is still considered an IC - even when joined to another unit. As such, he is bound by the 'Special Rules' limitations outlined in the section about IC's joining other units.

 

So if you join the Chaplain to the unit as well, Shrike and the squad lose the ability to infiltrate. Shrike's special rules allow him to confer the ability only to the unit he joins and he can only join a single unit at a time.

Yeah, the only way I have found Chaplains to be a great success is if they are attached to assault terminators or vanguard and assault out of a land raider. That seems to be the only really effective way of utilizing them now.

[Cedric]

While the IC's remain joined in the Vanguard squad, it counts as a single squad.

It's not a Vanguard squad with two separate IC squads attached. THe IC's become part of the Vanguards.

As a single squad, it benefits from Shrike's special rule.

Except the Chaplain is still considered an IC - even when joined to another unit. As such, he is bound by the 'Special Rules' limitations outlined in the section about IC's joining other units.

 

So if you join the Chaplain to the unit as well, Shrike and the squad lose the ability to infiltrate. Shrike's special rules allow him to confer the ability only to the unit he joins and he can only join a single unit at a time.

 

Yes, the Chaplain is still an IC, but an IC that is part of the unit it joins.

It is generally accepted that an apothecary gives FNP to an attached IC (or so I believe).

The rules for Nartheticum also uses the words "models in the squad".

By your logic, a commander wouldn't be part of his command squad, since he is an IC.

[Bannus]

Yes, the Chaplain is still an IC, but an IC that is part of the unit it joins.

It is generally accepted that an apothecary gives FNP to an attached IC (or so I believe).

The rules for Nartheticum also uses the words "models in the squad".

By your logic, a commander wouldn't be part of his command squad, since he is an IC.

Look at "Special Rules" in the section about ICs joining other units. It will explain all. The problem is that the Chaplain - while attached to another unit - is not really actually part of that unit. Shrike can only confer the ability onto the unit he has joined - ICs can only join a single unit at any given time.

 

Basically it means:

 

Shrike=infiltrate

 

Shrike+Squad=infiltrate

 

Shrike+another IC=infiltrate

 

Shrike+Squad+another IC=cannot infiltrate

[lucifer light bearer]

All this is good to know but..... I was looking for advice on how to use them without special characters like Shrike, and with jump packs

[Blitzkrieg861]

Well... something big can provide a cover save or maybe block them completely... You could do the train tactic. I haven't tried it personally (because I don't have a raider) but I heard about it from some guys last time I played at GW. Check it...

 

Obviously you want to keep them out of sight of shooters or at least minimalize their potential through hiding the unit and/or keeping them constantly in cover. If you have a couple of rhinos, go up with the rhinos. You can both move at the same speed and two rhinos should block most LOS and provide a cover save for the ones that can see you

 

The train would be doing this with a Raider too. Put one or two rhinos out in front (with or without troops, doesn't matter I guess) With a Raider right behind and your choice of troops beind that. The raider gets a cover save from the rhino, the troop gets a cover save from the raider. The rhino is out in the open, yeah. But it's a rhino... they're cheap. Everything can move 12" and the raider can still drop a 1 weapon shot on a target. Mix it up a bit... if you have 3 rhinos, put one on every side of the raider and maybe even by the troops. I think that using Vanguard is like using Assault Marines, only they're more precious (not more fragile though). Keep them away from being shot as much as possible, or get a cover save if possible. With so much armor with you, you ought to be able to cut apart a unit before the mop up with your Vanguard. In addition, if you have troops in those Rhinos... oh man... move with the rhinos, drop out 20 Tac Marines then charge anything thats left with a unit of Vanguard? It's dead... I don't care what it is... its dead. With so many vehicles around you like this you can really protect them against higher AP attacks on your way to your target, but not neccisarily lots and lots of low AP shots.

[HERO]

I like taking Vanguard with Shrike because of the turn #1 assault (if you go first). Infiltrate 18", Jump 12" and you have 1D6 + 6" Assault range. You can also tag on some Melta-bombs for easy to pick dead vehicles if you so desire.

[Cedric]

Look at "Special Rules" in the section about ICs joining other units. It will explain all. The problem is that the Chaplain - while attached to another unit - is not really actually part of that unit. Shrike can only confer the ability onto the unit he has joined - ICs can only join a single unit at any given time.

 

Basically it means:

 

Shrike=infiltrate

 

Shrike+Squad=infiltrate

 

Shrike+another IC=infiltrate

 

Shrike+Squad+another IC=cannot infiltrate

 

I've read it and must confess that I remain unconvinced.

It still appears to me that Shrike, Chaplain and the Vanguards are a single squad, as long as the IC's are attached. They, move, shoot, gets shot and assault as a single squad. IC's may be singled out in CC, but otherwise, the models behaves as a squad.

 

To me, "joining a squad" is to become part of it, until the IC leaves. With all benefits and penalties it may incur.

 

Shrike gives his rule to all models in the squad. Likewise, the Chaplain allows Shrike to reroll when charging.

[Koremu]

Look at "Special Rules" in the section about ICs joining other units. It will explain all. The problem is that the Chaplain - while attached to another unit - is not really actually part of that unit. Shrike can only confer the ability onto the unit he has joined - ICs can only join a single unit at any given time.

 

Basically it means:

 

Shrike=infiltrate

 

Shrike+Squad=infiltrate

 

Shrike+another IC=infiltrate

 

Shrike+Squad+another IC=cannot infiltrate

 

I've read it and must confess that I remain unconvinced.

It still appears to me that Shrike, Chaplain and the Vanguards are a single squad, as long as the IC's are attached. They, move, shoot, gets shot and assault as a single squad. IC's may be singled out in CC, but otherwise, the models behaves as a squad.

 

To me, "joining a squad" is to become part of it, until the IC leaves. With all benefits and penalties it may incur.

 

Shrike gives his rule to all models in the squad. Likewise, the Chaplain allows Shrike to reroll when charging.

 

If an IC joins a squad with an asterixed ability, then the Squad loses that ability until they leave, as per p74 BRB. Infiltrate is asterixed.

 

Also, bannus is I believe slightly wrong. Shrike + Another IC = No Infiltrate.

[Cedric]

If an IC joins a squad with an asterixed ability, then the Squad loses that ability until they leave, as per p74 BRB. Infiltrate is asterixed.

 

Also, bannus is I believe slightly wrong. Shrike + Another IC = No Infiltrate.

 

 

This has NOTHING to do with Infiltrate being an asterixed USR.

The asterix only comes into ply when an IC joins, for example, Scouts.

Since Shrike specifically gives infiltrate to models in his squad (all models, I assume), even a second IC will benefit from it.

[Koremu]

If an IC joins a squad with an asterixed ability, then the Squad loses that ability until they leave, as per p74 BRB. Infiltrate is asterixed.

 

Also, bannus is I believe slightly wrong. Shrike + Another IC = No Infiltrate.

 

 

This has NOTHING to do with Infiltrate being an asterixed USR.

The asterix only comes into ply when an IC joins, for example, Scouts.

Since Shrike specifically gives infiltrate to models in his squad (all models, I assume), even a second IC will benefit from it.

 

You are stretching the definition of "squad" there.

 

ICs might join a squad, but it's a steep call to consider them an actual part of the squad for the purposes of Shrikes rule, IMO.

 

At which point, it being an asterisked USR is relevant.

[Cedric]

Define squad, then.

 

To me, a squad is a bunch of models moving while maintaining coherency that is targetted and attacks as one.

This would include ICs as long as they remain in coherency with the squad.

 

Look at the Independent Character section and consider the words there.

 

Independent characters are allowed to join other units

To me, that says the IC becomes part of the squad it joins, until it decides to wander off elsewhere.

 

While an independent character is part of a unit,

he must obey the usual coherency rules

There we go again, the IC is a part of the unit.

 

Now, what is a unit?

My guess is that it is an interchangeable description of one or several models on their own, such as a squad.

[Bannus]

A unit is defined on page 3 of the BRB.

 

However, the rules concerning IC's joining other units is defined on page 48. And it clearly states that while the IC may be joined to the unit, he does not "inherit" that unit's abilities.

 

In fact, it gives infiltrating as its example.

 

Basically, you can no more infiltrate a Chaplain with Shrike's squad than you could if you joined the Chaplain to a Scout Squad. Simply put - you cannot infiltrate.

[Cedric]

A unit will usually consist of several models that fight as a group

-BRB p.3

Page 3 only defines a unit vaguely. However, a IC that has joined a squad will most definitely "fight as a group". The rules for how joined IC's behave specifies this.

 

I'm not saying IC's inherit abilities of their squad, they don't. That is very clear.

 

What I am saying is, that Shrike, because of his special rule, confers Infiltrate to ALL models in the squad he joins.

Since the Chaplain has joined the Vanguards, he is part of the squad until he leaves and thus benefits from See but remain unseen.

[NemFX]

The best way isn't gonna be cheap.. But.. The tactic sure is. I'm not sure if this is legal with the new rules, so you'll have to double check this but:

 

Shrike + full Vanguard squad. Each VG has 2 power swords. The sgt also has a teleport homer.

 

Shrike infiltrates them, and if they are out of range it's okay. Teleport in a full terminator assault squad with lightning claws, use the terminators as cover.

 

Next turn: Unleash hell itself.

 

 

Terminators: 30 attacks first turn (you can have heavy flamers if you want, I'm just using the number system)

 

Shrike and co: 18 power weapon attacks from the squad, whatever attacks Shrike has.

[Blitzkrieg861]

You don't need to waste points on two power weapons for each Vanguard, having a bolt pistol in the other hand still gives you your second attack. You only ever need to double up for Power Fists and Lightning Claws.

 

You can get a ridiculous number of attacks on this unit. Well over 30+ power weapon attacks with a full unit of 10 with power weapons. Plus a Chappy and Shrike. It's almost not fair if you ask me. At that rate, it might be better to take the lightning claws just so you could re-roll failed hits and wounds. Your potential is greatly increased with the chance to re-roll your failed ones.

[Blood Scorpion]

Does anyone think a unit of 5 Vanguard with Jump Packs, Fist/T'hammer and 4 Power Weapons would be worth taking?

 

They are roughly the same points as a 10-man Assault Squad with Thunderhammer and Flamers. If you can hide them well (behind Land Raider and Rhinos) then they can jump out and assault with 16 Power Weapon Attacks and 3 Thunderhammer Attacks.

 

I would probably run a Jump Pack Chaplain with them too for more Power Weapon Attacks and the re-rolls.

[Blood Scorpion]

Actually, just done a bit of calculation and the Lightning Claw is as good or better than a Power Weapon, even without the extra Attack for 2 Close Combat Weapons.

 

That said, I am thinking a unit of 5 Vanguard with a Lightning Claw each is something to consider. They are the same cost as a 10-Man Assault Sqaud with Fist and 2 Flamers (235pts). Against Hordes they will not do as well, but against MEQs they will kill about 40% more than a regular Assault Squad.

 

On the charge with a Chaplain they will cause 10 Power Weapon wounds on average. I am thinking that they could be a good unit to "Clean" opposing MEQs off an Objective.

[Imperator Mos]

I run a pod list, so Vanguard are a great option for me. My Sternguard/Kantor unit draws a lot of heat, so I usually send the Vanguard to rescue them, and Kantor gives them another attack... Yeah. Also, another tidbit I "discovered" and used in my last Batt-Rep is, take a full squad and you can combat squad them. Now you have two heroic interventions to bail out your other units. Works very well.

[HERO]

Leave a few bodies without power weapons if you're taking an IC with them that already has a power weapon. You want those extra wounds just in case some die prematurely or by some unlucky rolls.

 

7x Vanguard with 3x Power Weapons and a Thunderhammer = 295 points.

 

Take him with Shrike (my own personal Shrike's wing) and you'll have Shrike hitting at I5 WS6 with 5x MC LCs with Rending before your Vanguard hits with 12 PW attacks, 12 normal attacks and 3 TH attacks. No squad of MEQ should live past that assault.

[DerekLee688]

How about 5 vanguard with Jump packs, PW's, and melta bombs. You get 20 PW attacks on the charge, and you get five melta bombs at the same price as a PF without the loss of initive. Trust me, I've taken on a ven. dread with an assault squad with just a srg with a PF. Only having one guy swinging last really sux.

 

All in a 260pt. package. You can hide them behind a landraider or heroic intervention to your heart's content and have every model be a danger to vehicles/infantry.

[HERO]

You need extra bodies ;)

[Vissah]

I found out by meself that 5 is to little.

I use 8 Vanguards, Sarge with Relic Blade and the rest with PW I know its expensive but it just looks so cool and I wanna in a assault in one round so I just want to be sure everthing they charge will go down.

I also attach Shrike with them to infiltrate and use the fleet roll.

[DerekLee688]

Then you either shed the packs for a few extra ground pounders, or use the JP's mobility, higher priority targets, or even the squads small size to hide them until they strike. I'm just giving a option for under 275pts. More bodies may draw more fire. Granted, it will add more durability.

[DerekLee688]

I guess the question is what do you want to rely on them to do? If you want them to jump a full squad of whatever, then yes you need as many bodies as possible. However if you want to kill a lightly escorted terminator lord, finish off a squad that's been pecked at, or kill a vehicle/dread; then maybie five guys with jump packs, PW's, and melta bombs is all you need.

[lucifer light bearer]

I need them to kill meq's