Is Loken alive?

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

ohh yeh, sory. Guess that is just another of my hair brained assumptions. I feel that he showed this ability when he beat Lucius in the sparing cage, in Horus rising pg 377. I'm sure many will disagree though.... prescience if i had to guess. Just one of the abilities that the Emp had supresed in his Astartes.

 

I would definately have to disagree with that. I mean if Loken had that ability he should have forseen Horus's fall not to mention every other calamity that befell the Luna Wolves/Sons Of Horus. I read it that in that fight instead of fighting with swords like Lucius was expecting Loken just jumped on top him and beat the crap outta Lucius, Luna Wolves style. :) But to each there own.

 

 

"I've been watching you, of course, the attacking strokes. I can read you"

"you wish"

" I can read you. Come for me"

Lucius lunged at Loken. Loken side- stepped, blade down, and punched Lucius in the face. Lucius fell on his back, hard.

 

 

 

 

As far as Swordsmen go and fighters Lucius is the best of the best. Loken was better. Seems to me he had an advantage....

[Lord_Caerolion]

Wow... so now not only can Loken survive imenent death, he's also secretly a psyker too... The levels of Loken-love are getting overly high here.

 

And yes, since we've had one quote added about the death of Loken, let's add another:

A bomb slammed into the Precentor's Palace, finally blasting what little remained of its great stone flower into flame and shards of granite. The Loyalists did not throw themselves into cover or run for shelter - there was little point.

The Warmaster was bombarding the city, and he was thorough.

He would not let them slip away a second time.

Towers of flame bloomed all across the palace, closing in on them with fiery inevitability.

The battle for the Choral City was over.

 

So there we have it. This bombardment was blasting the stone people were stating woud protect Loken into shards. Any meagre protection the rubble would grant him would be gone in seconds.

 

Lastly, just because someone says "I can read you" doesn't make them a psyker. Have you done martial arts, Walkier? I can tell you now, people who are very good at fighting can learn to read body-language, see when/where you're going to attack. I can also tell you that you can get a highly trained fighter, and throw them in a fight against something they don't have experience against, and they won't know what to do. I've seen it happen. Highly trained martial artists fight against another person trained in a totally, utterly different art, and get their butt handed to them. That's what happened with Lucius.

 

Yes, he's a good fighter. However, his one major flaw is his pride. He thinks, along with all other Emperor's Children, that their enemies are going to fight honourably, fight in the standard image of a duel. The one thing he wasn't expecting to happen was Loken drop his sword and punch him. How can you fight what you don't expect? Let's just watch what would have happened in a rematch, where Lucius is ready for it, Loken would be utterly smashed.

 

Seriously guys, don't just attribute super-powers to Loken every time you come across a situation that isn't explicitly stated outright.

[Badaboom]

Actually, the thing I like the most about Tarvitz, Loken, Demeter and Garro is their lack of superpowers, they´re just very professional warriors with an unmatchable sense of honor and iron will; does it mean they will win? Of course not, but it makes many of us fall in love with them. Btw, has anyone else realized that all the main heroes of the HH books have Hebrew/Biblical names? Garviel, Saul, Solomon and Nathaniel, while most of the bad guys have daemonic/pagan names: Horus, Abaddon, Eidolon...

[Grand Master Tyrak]

I'm really starting to think you just don't like the idea of brothers who belonged to Legions who turned traitor forming the founders of he Grey Knights. Anything that kills them off would be OK with you. :P

 

:huh: ^_^ :yes: :yes: I like my Grey Knights as they are, with the pure gene-seed of the Emperor. I could live with Garro and Qruze though.

 

Lastly, just because someone says "I can read you" doesn't make them a psyker. Have you done martial arts, Walkier? I can tell you now, people who are very good at fighting can learn to read body-language, see when/where you're going to attack. I can also tell you that you can get a highly trained fighter, and throw them in a fight against something they don't have experience against, and they won't know what to do. I've seen it happen. Highly trained martial artists fight against another person trained in a totally, utterly different art, and get their butt handed to them. That's what happened with Lucius.

 

Yes, he's a good fighter. However, his one major flaw is his pride. He thinks, along with all other Emperor's Children, that their enemies are going to fight honourably, fight in the standard image of a duel. The one thing he wasn't expecting to happen was Loken drop his sword and punch him. How can you fight what you don't expect? Let's just watch what would have happened in a rematch, where Lucius is ready for it, Loken would be utterly smashed.

 

Agreed. Indeed, anything to do with picking up body language, tone, stance etc. is 'reading' someone without them explicitly stating it.

 

However, some distinction has to be made. Loken is psychic in the sense that all humans are psychic to a degree (apart from Pariahs of course). What he is not is psychic to the level where that psychic capability can be manipulated and put to use as a Librarian. In a way, you could say that the ability to read someone's patterns and moves is a crude form of prescience, which proper psykers learn to master to a much greater degree.

 

Btw, has anyone else realized that all the main heroes of the HH books have Hebrew/Biblical names? Garviel, Saul, Solomon and Nathaniel, while most of the bad guys have daemonic/pagan names: Horus, Abaddon, Eidolon...

 

Oh yes. GW takes a lot of ideas from biblical sources.

[deftech]

I would love for Loken to have survived the bombardment but i think the chances of that happening would have been slim to none. When it comes to The Luna Wolves my favorite by far has to be The Half Heard. When i read the book i had no impression of Loken being a psyker. And the duel between Loken and Lucius has to be one of my favorite fights in all of 40k

[Skyhawk]

Loken is DEAD. Get over it.

Killed by the orbital barrage following the scouring.

Just as Saul Tarvitz is dead.

 

.......The kids these days. :cuss

[Castlerook]

They might be genetically engineered supermen, but honestly, can they survive a vastly outnumbered battle then a severe beatdown from Abaddon and an extremely accurate and methodical orbital bombardment, and then, against all odds get up, dust themselves and leave a planet with no means of interstellar travel?

 

Garviel Loken is dead, in tiny little chunks on a dead planet.

 

 

(And yes, I am biased....I do not like the character)

[Storm Hunter]

Loken is DEAD. Get over it.

Killed by the orbital barrage following the scouring.

Just as Saul Tarvitz is dead.

 

.......The kids these days. :lol:

:lol: well said m8 Simple but effective :D Saul didn't die though he survived using his magical teleportation device strapped to his rite eye and mystically disappeared which is y they neva found his body. ;)

[DaemonPrinceDargor]

Loken is DEAD. Get over it.

Killed by the orbital barrage following the scouring.

Just as Saul Tarvitz is dead.

 

.......The kids these days. :)

 

 

 

Ah,no...The right answer is we don't know.The writers left it open and they can go in either direction with it.To be honest,i'd put my money on them(Tarvitz at least)not being dead,what with McNeil putting that secret hangar part in Fulgrim...

 

 

Cheers!

[Lord_Caerolion]

As again, they didn't leave it open. The characters got caught in a thorough and methodical orbital bombardment, intended to leave nothing standing. This hangar is buried under tonnes of rubble, if it even survived, and Loken is now free-floating particles.

[DaemonPrinceDargor]

Right,so mr McNeil who even in his own web page says that he was hard pressed to fit all his thoughts in the given page count,was simply wasting lines with the hangar story...In any case,imho,everyone is speculating and only time and the writers themselfs will prove who is wrong and who is right!

 

 

Cheers!

[Lord_Caerolion]

Well, just because he includes something that is written as second-hand hearsay doesn't mean it's true. We don't even know for certain that it was a hangar, only that Rylanor was supposedly guarding something. Just because something is vaguely suggested doesn't make it true.

 

Guys, remember the bombardment. Unless this hangar was very, very far away, it got hit. As such, what do you think this would do to the exit bay of said hangar? You can't fly through solid rock.

 

Lastly, how can Tarvitz survive? Here's the quote about what happens to him:

A bomb slammed into the Precentor's Palace, finally blasting what little remained of its great stone flower into flame and shards of granite. The Loyalists did not throw themselves into cover or run for shelter - there was little point.

The Warmaster was bombarding the city, and he was thorough.

He would not let them slip away a second time.

Towers of flame bloomed all across the palace, closing in on them with fiery inevitability.

The battle for the Choral City was over.

 

Please note that Tarvitz was one of said Loyalists caught in this particular salvoe. They were in the open pretty much when this salvoe hit, with no cover whatsoever, and these are bombs designed to destroy cities. He's gone.

[Solid Zaku]

Actually, there's a chance ole Loken's still kicking. There's some material in the Horus Heresy artbook that summarizes the Istvaan Massacre, and at the end says that, although Horus did indeed pulverize the area, he himself knew that there would be survivors. He also knew, however, that they had no way of returning to give him any problems; any transport off-world was either gone or destroyed, they had no means of interplanetary communication, and any rescue efforts by the Imperial Fists splinter would be met with four entire Space Marine Legions' worth of resistance.

[Lord_Caerolion]

However, which was printed later? It states "he would not let them get away this time" in the later publication.

 

Still, I do agree that in the one-in-a-trillion chance that someone did somehow survive, it would only be a matter of time before they die anyway. They aren't getting off the planet.

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

Well, just because he includes something that is written as second-hand hearsay doesn't mean it's true. We don't even know for certain that it was a hangar, only that Rylanor was supposedly guarding something. Just because something is vaguely suggested doesn't make it true.

If you can agree that Rylanor was guarding something i can't see how you could let that something be anything less the the most important thing there could be, a way off planet. Maybe you would ask your most valued asset to guard some unimportant underground death hole but i think Loken was smarter then that. I think we can know it was true also. Lucius I'm sure can be called many bad names but one i don't think fits him is a liar. Nor was Loken a liar, even if he did not totally trust Lucius at this point he certainly still trusted him enough not to lie to his face. Because something is vaguely suggested dose not mean it is true however the fact that the time was taken to include it in a book means to me it is foreshadowing.

 

Guys, remember the bombardment. Unless this hangar was very, very far away, it got hit. As such, what do you think this would do to the exit bay of said hangar? You can't fly through solid rock.

Again.... What is the point to building an underground hanger on a planet that did not have any environmental reasons to do so? it is no small undertaking to build a hanger underground. The only reason i could think to do so..... in a galaxy of total war..... is to survive a bombardment. This is not the first time I've brought this up but i feel it will be over looked again. Good thing I'm a optimist. And if you are going to go through the trouble to build a underground hanger to survive said bombardment why do so if you do not also build a exit bay that could also survive a bombardment? Furthermore if theses theses qualities where not in place why would this place be important enough to require Rylanor to guard it?

 

Lastly, how can Tarvitz survive? Here's the quote about what happens to him:

A bomb slammed into the Precentor's Palace, finally blasting what little remained of its great stone flower into flame and shards of granite. The Loyalists did not throw themselves into cover or run for shelter - there was little point.

The Warmaster was bombarding the city, and he was thorough.

He would not let them slip away a second time.

Towers of flame bloomed all across the palace, closing in on them with fiery inevitability.

The battle for the Choral City was over.

 

Please note that Tarvitz was one of said Loyalists caught in this particular salvoe. They were in the open pretty much when this salvoe hit, with no cover whatsoever, and these are bombs designed to destroy cities. He's gone.

Here again is the quote as to the How there could be any survivors.

'Why not just bombard them?' asked eidolon. The sudden silence that followed his question was defening.

Loken waited for the Warmaster to reprimand Eidolon for daring to question one of his dicisions, but Horus only nodded indulgently. 'Because these people are vermin, and when you stamp out vermin from afar, some invariably survive.'

The men in question are the Emperors finest, a grade above vermin i think. So to give them no chance of survival is short sighted.

[Lord_Caerolion]

So you're ignoring the direct quote stating that Tarvitz was in the open, without any cover, against bombs turning buildings to shards, in favour of a quote from a second-hand source to what happened on the ground? They were hit by the full force of blasts designed to topple cities. Power armour doesn't save you from that.

 

As for the hangar, I'll state again that the exit would be affected. Either this hangar has an exit bay very far away, at which point it'd better be very reinforced, escaping falling rubble, or the launch bay was within the range of the detonations, at which point it is a prime target for falling debris, and other structural damage. As I'd said before, it doesn't matter that the depths of the hangar itself might survive. The whole point of an underground hangar is that it reaches the surface. If this surface point is within range of the blasts, then it would be affected.

[DaemonPrinceDargor]

Agreed,the entry point must be somewhere inside the city and near the palace(a place that i agree didn't survive the bombardment) but nobody said that the exit of it is near the city or in it.Or the actuall size of the hangar.I dont think that Horus would waste ammunition bombing unihabited areas of the planet.But as i said earlier,we are speculating.When more info on the subject will become availiabe then we'll be able to say for sure "yeah they bought it" or "the gits survived!".

 

 

Cheers!

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Again.... What is the point to building an underground hanger on a planet that did not have any environmental reasons to do so? it is no small undertaking to build a hanger underground. The only reason i could think to do so..... in a galaxy of total war..... is to survive a bombardment. This is not the first time I've brought this up but i feel it will be over looked again. Good thing I'm a optimist. And if you are going to go through the trouble to build a underground hanger to survive said bombardment why do so if you do not also build a exit bay that could also survive a bombardment? Furthermore if theses theses qualities where not in place why would this place be important enough to require Rylanor to guard it?

 

You are assuming the Imperials built the hangar. This is the end of the Great Crusade. The Isstvaan system was liberated not so long ago - that hangar could easily have been built by the planet's original inhabitants, who had no knowledge of the Imperium's bombardment capabilities. Don't assume that because it is underground it was built to withstand bombardment. Look at the London Underground - built underground not to withstand bombardment (indeed parts of it didn't during the Blitz) but because there is no space above ground. If the planetary leaders needed to flee the city why have a hangar miles away? Why not have one built close by, but underground where an invading force will find it hard to access?

[jubei124]

Currently the U.S. and other nations, have built underground bunkers designed to survive multi-kiloton nuclear blasts that are city killers. I personally think that an underground bunker/hanger even if built in the far future by the imperium or by Istavaan's inhabitants would be able to survive something similar. I agree that the enterance would most likely have been destroyed but I think the hanger would remain intact. Now for the exit, anyone with half a brain would have built the exit far enough from the city to escape damage from orbital bombardment, or to build it onto a cliff face (think Star Wars) then camoflage it from detection. From what I understand the armorments(sp) used it orbital bombardments were designed to do their damage to the planets surface not to penetrate objects and be bunker busters. I really have no idea if Loken is alive, I just thnk this idea the hanger would be destroyed also is absurd.

[Dyp100]

Maybe the titan squashed the rocks under him, making an air tight barrier?

 

The stone then melted onto his skin, and he become near dreadnought, and then got saved along with the others mentioned in the other books, and become a dreadnought?

 

OH, btw...Garro AND Saul was invented before.

[Lord_Caerolion]

We aren't debating whether Garro was invented before or not. We're debating whether Loken was, and whether he survived the bombardments.

 

And as for your "semi-dreadnought" suggestion, lets look at it this way. If the stone did melt onto his skin, then it either A) covered his head, completely enclosing him and wouldn't protect him from the bombardment (quoted to blow buildings into shards, so rock ain't going to do diddly), and even if it did, would cut off his air flow, smothering him to death, or <_< it miraculously leaves a gap for him to breath through, at which point his rock covering would still be blown to smithereens, an even if it didn't, he then has a way for the flames to reach him.

And thats the last thing, if these rocks are hot enough to fuse to his skin, he's not going to have any living tissue left. His brain would be melted by the sheer heat, as well as receiving absolutely massive burns all over what would be left of his body.

[Marshal Rohr]

Point is, like the rest of the Horus Heresy stuff, it doesn't matter. In the end Horus dies, the Emperor craps out, the Traitors are driven into the Eye and 10,000 years later nothing has changed. Sure it would be nice to have some closure about Loken as you inevitably grow attached to him over 3 books, but those were big bombs, Abaddon did just hand him his rear end, and he was pinned under something. Sure he could have survived, I hope he does, but in the end it doesn't really matter. If Loken was saved and did something great we would have heard about it. Personally, I hope we do. I dont like not knowing about the two lost Legions or where the GK's came from, I want a fully expanded universe.

 

 

Don't apply the whole 'fictional universe' argument either because I am speaking in the context of the Universe.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

I dont like not knowing about the two lost Legions or where the GK's came from, I want a fully expanded universe.

 

:P But we do know where the GKs came from, they use the Emperor's gene-seed.

[Xavier Targhost]

Humm id have to agre with the part of the hangar remaining intakt and there is nothing that says that Loken is dead :tu: and that Traviz is still out during the imenent blast.. he could have found Loken and be draging him with himself and as he is about to enter the bunker complex the bombs starts to rain down on the city in the distance... so id guess that Loken survives and that they have some form of transport down in the hangar... ;) but well have to wait i guess.. I do hope to see more of him and saul in the end.... cant wait for the "Battle for Terra" to be honest.... ;)

hehe i still thing Loken could kick Lusius a*s if the moment came once more :P

[Dyp100]

We aren't debating whether Garro was invented before or not. We're debating whether Loken was, and whether he survived the bombardments.

 

And as for your "semi-dreadnought" suggestion, lets look at it this way. If the stone did melt onto his skin, then it either A) covered his head, completely enclosing him and wouldn't protect him from the bombardment (quoted to blow buildings into shards, so rock ain't going to do diddly), and even if it did, would cut off his air flow, smothering him to death, or :D it miraculously leaves a gap for him to breath through, at which point his rock covering would still be blown to smithereens, an even if it didn't, he then has a way for the flames to reach him.

And thats the last thing, if these rocks are hot enough to fuse to his skin, he's not going to have any living tissue left. His brain would be melted by the sheer heat, as well as receiving absolutely massive burns all over what would be left of his body.

 

Ohhhh....I got owned. xD

 

But I meant the lava face after the explosions, or the second fire storm, or whatever.

 

I mean, hes an Astarte's, and it's 30k, fiction, as well. As, remember, Cassius has only half a face, his skull visible every second of the day, and yet he lives, I'm sure there is some way Loken could survive.