Is Loken alive?

[Castlerook]

Well then Loken is alive. As alive as someone who just got seven shades of power armour beaten out of him by Abaddon, then had a building collapse on him and then several very big city busting rockets fired at him from space, can be.

 

Your right though, its fiction, but remember, in fiction a character runs their course. Loken was just a means to the end. The authors simply no longer had any use for him, when you get to that stage, the only use a character like that has is to remind other characters of better times, not to take an active role in the story.

[Lord_Caerolion]

True, Cassius does on;y have half a face, but you know how he got that? Half his face got hit with acid, not his whole body with city-busting munitions. If a bit of acid can reduce a Marine to having no flesh where it hits, what are these bombs going to do? Most likely answer: leave them as free-floating particles.

 

As for Tarvitz dragging Loken to safety, I've already shown that Tarvitz got caught in the open by one of the bombs. He's not even dragging himself anywhere.

 

Also, I agree with Anarnaxe. Loken was a plot device, designed to make us hate the Traitors more when they went evil. He wasn't designed to be Super-Marine who can survive everything, just so he can come back and destroy Horus. He's there so we feel sad when he's gone, no matter how much we may have loved the character.

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

True, Cassius does on;y have half a face, but you know how he got that? Half his face got hit with acid, not his whole body with city-busting munitions. If a bit of acid can reduce a Marine to having no flesh where it hits, what are these bombs going to do? Most likely answer: leave them as free-floating particles.

 

As for Tarvitz dragging Loken to safety, I've already shown that Tarvitz got caught in the open by one of the bombs. He's not even dragging himself anywhere.

 

Also, I agree with Anarnaxe. Loken was a plot device, designed to make us hate the Traitors more when they went evil. He wasn't designed to be Super-Marine who can survive everything, just so he can come back and destroy Horus. He's there so we feel sad when he's gone, no matter how much we may have loved the character.

 

But what about Rylanor? you can say it was just hearsay but how about just answer this? What if it was true that he went to guard a hanger? You have not answered the question of what could be so important for him to do so. Or why he would guard something that could be destroyed in a bombing. I understand what you say about the Exit bay and all, but surely Rylanor understood this better than most. So if he felt that this hanger was still important there must have been a reason for it.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

But what about Rylanor? you can say it was just hearsay but how about just answer this? What if it was true that he went to guard a hanger? You have not answered the question of what could be so important for him to do so. Or why he would guard something that could be destroyed in a bombing.

 

That's just a little omniscient of Rylanor, no? How is he to know if the hangar can be destroyed in a bombardment before Horus tries it out?

[Lord_Caerolion]

But when he was sent to guard the hangar, did they know they were going to be bombed again? I think not. At that point in time, they were fighting a ground war against enemy troops, and sent Rylanor to protect something. Using your logic, why would they defend the city, it can be destroyed in the bombing?

 

Also, if this fortified hangar was so defendable, then why wouldn't they fall back into the hangar, creating a choke point at it's entrance for the Traitor troops, with the ability to fall back down the launch-bay if they need to? They'd be able to survive the bombings, and be able to better weather the ground assault. Why instead send just one dreadnought to guard something the enemy obviously doesn't know exists, and would survive anyway? What's the point of sending him down there? Is he going to fly the shp out with his dreadnought hands?

 

Sending Rylanor to guard a hangar makes no sense. Also, if the enemy did know the hangar exists, then Rylanor isn't going to be able to do anything, as the hangar would become the enemy priority, and the Loyalists barely have enough troops to hold their existing ground. Whatever he was guarding didn't benefit whatsoever from him guarding it. It'd fall or hold just as well if he wasn't there, and if it was defendable, they didn't take proper advantage of it.

 

Lastly, we have to remember that there has been a previous massive fire storm that engulfed pretty much the whole planet. Now, I'm fairly sure any hangar would have a large amount of (volatile) fuel around the place, to refuel the ships. Now, what happens when large amount of fuel meets flames? We get a massive explosion. Generally not good for whatever is around. You also have the problem of delicate ship parts, and hangar controls.

[Castlerook]

The problem is, a lot of people who have read/ are reading the series, know what happens at Istvaan III, and then transferring that knowledge to the characters. The characters don't know their going to be bombarded, until the first missile hits the ground. Its not like the Traitors were shouting at them "Time for us to go, theres a massive bombardment scheduled for 4pm, so we'll see you guys.....Never!".

 

All that could have been running through the loyalist minds is "we've driven them off, but they'll come back.", because ( a ) the loyalists were still thinking tactics of sane, rational Men, not the Chaos corrupted minds of their former comrades. ( b ) It never occured to them that Istvaan III was just a way to clear house and that Horus was just willing to obliterate them all, even if Tarvitz had gone down to warned the betrayed, he had no way of knowing Horus was going to drop hundreds of kilotons of explosives on their heads.

 

Whats written is written, and how it happened. You want to control the heroes' collective fate? Do it on the tabletop because the only survivors are on the Eisenstein.

[Lucifer Fellblade]

The problem is, a lot of people who have read/ are reading the series, know what happens at Istvaan III, and then transferring that knowledge to the characters. The characters don't know their going to be bombarded, until the first missile hits the ground. Its not like the Traitors were shouting at them "Time for us to go, theres a massive bombardment scheduled for 4pm, so we'll see you guys.....Never!".

 

All that could have been running through the loyalist minds is "we've driven them off, but they'll come back.", because ( a ) the loyalists were still thinking tactics of sane, rational Men, not the Chaos corrupted minds of their former comrades. ( b ) It never occured to them that Istvaan III was just a way to clear house and that Horus was just willing to obliterate them all, even if Tarvitz had gone down to warned the betrayed, he had no way of knowing Horus was going to drop hundreds of kilotons of explosives on their heads.

 

 

A. The tactics were still of rational sane men, they didn't suddenly become retarded just because they rebelled against the emperor.

 

B."That's what worries me. This probably all started when Angron slipped the leash, but the Warmaster could have just pulled his Legions out and bombed this city into dust. He would have lost some of them, but even so... this planet should have been dead long ago." Tarvitz then argues that it's because of the Primarch's pride to not be the first to withdraw, doesnt really matter for this discussion.

 

It most definetly occured to Loken at least, and he told Tarvitz this, and since both were effectively in command of the whole loyalist forces, I'd say you'd class that as knowing.

 

The whole discussion is rather irrelevant, unless it clearly states somebody is dead, they aren't dead, and it clearly says "everything went black", not "Loken died". Professional authors don't write things like that by accident. They could have survived, they might not have, they might have. You can't know until it's written that they did.

[jubei124]

The problem is, a lot of people who have read/ are reading the series, know what happens at Istvaan III, and then transferring that knowledge to the characters. The characters don't know their going to be bombarded, until the first missile hits the ground. Its not like the Traitors were shouting at them "Time for us to go, theres a massive bombardment scheduled for 4pm, so we'll see you guys.....Never!".

 

That last chapter read to me that the traitors were off Istavaan III when the bombardment came.

 

What news, Mai?' asked Horus. 'Have all surface units returned to their posts?'

'I have just heard from the Conqueror,' nodded Maloghurst. 'Angron has returned. He is the last,’

Horus turned back to the gnarled globe of Isstvan V and said, 'Good. It is no surprise to me that he should be the last to quit the battlefield. So what is the butcher's bill?'

 

So if All the traitors were off Istavaan III before the bombardment came wouldn't all the thunderhawks,stormbirds and other transport craft leaving the planet be an obvious sign that something 'bad' was going to happen.

[Castlerook]

My point was that the loyalists were perhaps thinking that their former comrades would use the tactics they always used, e.g. Luna Wolves would attack, fall back, attack with the time between each attack decreasing, it probably never occured to them that when the Legions pulled out that they were actually pulling out. I doubt that the loyalists would follow the traitors to the landing zones and continue attacking them, thats suicide for a smaller force, superior air cover would be the death of them.

 

I was trying to say that many of those marines had served with their legions since the start of the Great Crusade, over 200 years, in that instance, familiarity breeds a sort of ignorance. Most of the survivors on Istvaan probably knew what their Primarchs would do in a given situation, I wasn't saying the Primarchs had suddenly turned stupid, just that the survivors thought that if they were going to be killed, they could try and get the Traitors to keep fighting them until ( a ) Garro and the Eisenstein could make it to Earth and ( b ) the last Loyalist died on the planet.

 

The battle on Istvaan III lasted for 3 months (If I remember correctly) and during those three months, a few hundred loyalists did massive damage on four of the most experienced Legions of the Crusade. The loyalists probably thought that the longer they kept fighting, the more of a chance the warning would get through and the less Traitors the other loyalists would have to fight. They knew they were going to die, they just needed to make sure the Traitors paid the bill first.

 

Of course, all these views are based on what I've read, I'm sure other people have different ideas. But until the writers come up with definitive answers, all we can do is provide conjecture.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Actually, Lucifer, saying "and then everything went black" can mean they died. Also, as has been stated, do you really need to be told that someone dies when they get hit with an orbital bombardment? Seriously, these things destroy cities entirely, yet a bit of ceramite can protect you? Even when most of the buildings probably have ceramite? And funnily enough, these writers have thesaurus's, and use them to come up with different ways of stating the same thing, rather than boringly stating each time "And then he died. Then the bombs reached Tarvitz, and he died. Then Loken, and he died too." It's called variety. Please don't use it to claim that you need every single thing spelled out for you.

 

And about the Traitors pulling out, I'd say you'd start to notice when you see all Traitor forces pulling back towards dropships, including the World Eaters. When you see those guys leaving, you know they aren't doing it for laughs.

[Lucifer Fellblade]

Actually, Lucifer, saying "and then everything went black" can mean they died. Also, as has been stated, do you really need to be told that someone dies when they get hit with an orbital bombardment? Seriously, these things destroy cities entirely, yet a bit of ceramite can protect you? Even when most of the buildings probably have ceramite? And funnily enough, these writers have thesaurus's, and use them to come up with different ways of stating the same thing, rather than boringly stating each time "And then he died. Then the bombs reached Tarvitz, and he died. Then Loken, and he died too." It's called variety. Please don't use it to claim that you need every single thing spelled out for you.

 

It can mean they died, it can mean they didn't die. There's a difference between stating things the same way and not stating things at all. You can't know unless it specifically states it, as I've already said. All you know is that the from Loken's point of view the world went dark and he lost feeling, that could mean several things.

 

Gaunt gets shot in the heart with a bolt pistol and doesn't die. Seriously, these things are rpg launchers, yet a little bit of metal can protect you? Even when you've seen them shoot through walls?

 

Incase you missed it, I'll say it again. If it doesn't say they are dead, you cannot know and any discussion is pointless if you actually want a resolution to it, regardless of how likely it appears.

[Lord_Caerolion]

My point is simple though. In your example, Gaunt survives a shot from a weapon that should kill him. However, this is a shot from a weapon that hits from a single direction, and can be directed or blocked relatively simply.

 

Loken, however, gets hit from a weapon that comes from every direction around him, and is literally impossible to deflect on a personal level, which is the only thing he can hope for. His protection currently comprises of power armour that doesn't cover his head, and is broken in several places, as well as a chunk of rubble pinning him in place, and which we know won't stand up to the bombardment. His protection can't give him any cover from what is about to hit, leaving him at the mercy of the explosions.

 

Give me a way that he could actually survive, other than wishful thinking, and I'll give you that it's possible. As it stands, there is no way he could survive, no matter that it doesn't say he dies.

[Lucifer Fellblade]

Give me a way that he could actually survive, other than wishful thinking, and I'll give you that it's possible. As it stands, there is no way he could survive, no matter that it doesn't say he dies.

 

Do you know exactly what an orbital bombardment is? Do you know how destructive it is, other than an educated estimate of it levelling buildings? If it was so effective as to kill everything on the surface Horus would have used it straight away rather than resorting to the Virus bombing/firestorm.

 

Put simply: We have absolutely no idea of the effectiveness of an orbital bombardment.

 

Loken states that it would bring the city down, not that it would annihilate everything on the surface. As for single piece of rubble, he can just about see through a crack, sounds pretty much like there's a whole building covering him to me.

 

For a single ship, even one as large and well armed as the Vengeful spirit, it would take a long time to ensure that everything in the area was dead, before giving the order to bomb the city Horus makes exclamations on the way he doesn't have time to tarry any longer and that the purpose of the final Istvaan battle was psychological, not for the purpose of destroying the loyalists entirely. Loken also states that it's purpose is to leave no doubt as to who won the battle, there wouldn't be any doubt if there was going to be no survivors.

 

Following from the previous assessment that an orbital bombardment wasn't enough in the first place, the fact that it's stated several times there would be survivors even by Horus himself, it's a fair possibility that the bombardment may not have had a direct impact on Loken at all, possibly only shifting the debris around him enough to cause unconciousness/activation of his Sus-an Membrane, especially considering the fact that a whole building falling on him already didn't kill him. Make no mistake, if he was in an area that suffered a direct hit, he'd be splattered all over the floor in several pieces, but bombardment is usually a term reserved for throwing lots of explosives at something in a rough area to make the enemy duck for cover, or annihilate their cover, not something thats pin-point accurate to kill people.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Yeah, he could avoid being hit directly, but we have statements that this time the bombardment is being done thoroughly, and that it's turning buildings to shards. This time, Horus intends to destroy all traces of them.

 

As for why he didn't just do this the first time, this method is more time consuming, compared to the Life Eater, which should have killed all of them, except for Tarvitz' warning. He hadn't planned on that happening, so the original plan failed. We know this bombardment is destroying buildings, so a single wall on Loken isn't going to save him.

And who says it was only the Vengeful Spirit bombarding the city? If time was important, I'd have every ship I could bombarding them. And Loken said, "it's purpose is to leave no doubt as to who won the battle, there wouldn't be any doubt if there was going to be no survivors," so why would he leave people alive?

[Xavier Targhost]

I agree with Lusifer... nothing final states... and there is also the posibility of somone outside the fraim that could have found Talric T (cant remember the spelling for the moment) and then the unconsius Loken.. and posibly save him.. all outside of the frame... as for Tarvitz he could se the bombing begin in the distance while he is still outside... right befor he enters some cover.. there is a whole lot of possibilitys here and nothing final.. as Brother Lusifer states.. they are the Astartes afterall... ? ;) far superior to us in all things <_<

[Lord_Caerolion]

What? Tarvitz doesn't enter cover! It states that he just stands there, until the explosions hit him. As for someone rescuing Loken, he's under a pile of rubble. Noone knows he's there, and anyone who was there when everything "goes black" would be outside, as the bombs first begin landing there. He's not going anywhere, and him being an Astartes won't help with that. Yes, they're superhuman, but it doesn't make them immortal. A building-destroying bombardment is still going to kill him dead.

[Lucifer Fellblade]

Yeah, he could avoid being hit directly, but we have statements that this time the bombardment is being done thoroughly, and that it's turning buildings to shards. This time, Horus intends to destroy all traces of them.

 

Statements which are? He's already tried and failed to destroy all traces of them, releasing a virus that kills every living thing it touches and then turning the planet into a firestorm is a far far far more effective method than simple lobbing explosives at them randomly.

 

As for why he didn't just do this the first time, this method is more time consuming, compared to the Life Eater, which should have killed all of them, except for Tarvitz' warning. He hadn't planned on that happening, so the original plan failed. We know this bombardment is destroying buildings, so a single wall on Loken isn't going to save him.

 

It should have killed them all and it didn't, the Life Eater is far far far far more thorough than any bombardment could be, and it failed at killing them all, there's no reason to think the bombardment couldn't be the same.

 

He's completely covered to the point he can only see through a crack, it is not a single wall. Secondly, it might not even hit that building, you just can't know. Why would they bomb a building that's already demolished?

 

And who says it was only the Vengeful Spirit bombarding the city? If time was important, I'd have every ship I could bombarding them. And Loken said, "it's purpose is to leave no doubt as to who won the battle, there wouldn't be any doubt if there was going to be no survivors," so why would he leave people alive?

 

I believe I may have mistaken the events of the firestorm after the virus bombing for the orbital bombardment, where it states the Vengeful Spirit moved in to deliver the final killing blow in Horus' typical fashion.

 

Why would he leave people alive isn't the question, he couldn't kill them all, as the first 3 efforts show, the only reason to prove that he won the battle would be if there were survivors to prove it to.

 

At heart, it's only gonna kill him if it hits him, which again there's no evidence of it doing. I am only saying it is possible, not that it was definetly this way. If I was pushed I'd say that yes he probably did die, but you can't know for certain.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Statements which are? He's already tried and failed to destroy all traces of them, releasing a virus that kills every living thing it touches and then turning the planet into a firestorm is a far far far more effective method than simple lobbing explosives at them randomly.

 

Not when there are airtight bunkers around for them to hide in. This time the Loyalists aren't bothering to take cover.

[Lucifer Fellblade]

Statements which are? He's already tried and failed to destroy all traces of them, releasing a virus that kills every living thing it touches and then turning the planet into a firestorm is a far far far more effective method than simple lobbing explosives at them randomly.

 

Not when there are airtight bunkers around for them to hide in. This time the Loyalists aren't bothering to take cover.

 

The group in the precentors palace weren't at the time the bombardment started closing in. They could very easily change their minds before it reaches them if provided with another option of escape.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Well, apart from this quote:

The Loyalists did not throw themselves into cover or run for shelter - there was little point.

They didn't go into cover. They accepted that this time there was no escape.

 

And as for how the bombardment is more thorough than the Life Eater, the virus can only go where air can enter. If you're in an airtight bunker, you're safe. Even the firestorm isn't that powerful, merely scorching everything that it touches, not blowing it apart.

A bombardment is a different thing however. It detonates with powerful shockwaves, enough to blow building into shards, and enough to penetrate simple bunkers. You still fail to see the entirety of what this bombardment is doing. It's blowing whole buildings into shards, not just the rubble lying around. If this is blowing buildings apart, and the stuff on top of Loken is the same material, and not as structurally strong, then his covering isn't going to protect him. I'll repeat. The bombardment is blowing apart the very same stuff thats covering him, and stuff that is more structurally intact and with stronger bonds than what is "protecting" him. It won't help him.

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

Give me a way that he could actually survive, other than wishful thinking, and I'll give you that it's possible. As it stands, there is no way he could survive, no matter that it doesn't say he dies.

 

Here again is the quote as to the How there could be any survivors.

'Why not just bombard them?' asked eidolon. The sudden silence that followed his question was defening.

Loken waited for the Warmaster to reprimand Eidolon for daring to question one of his dicisions, but Horus only nodded indulgently. 'Because these people are vermin, and when you stamp out vermin from afar, some invariably survive.'

The men in question are the Emperors finest, a grade above vermin i think. So to give them no chance of survival is short sighted.

[NIGHT RIPPER]

ive seen too many arnie films to believe loken is dead

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Here again is the quote as to the How there could be any survivors.

 

(Galaxy in Flames)

'Why not just bombard them?' asked eidolon. The sudden silence that followed his question was defening.

Loken waited for the Warmaster to reprimand Eidolon for daring to question one of his dicisions, but Horus only nodded indulgently. 'Because these people are vermin, and when you stamp out vermin from afar, some invariably survive.'

 

The men in question are the Emperors finest, a grade above vermin i think. So to give them no chance of survival is short sighted.

 

Doesn't that mean that some invariably die? ^_^

[DaemonPrinceDargor]

But also that some invariably survive! ;) ;)

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Doesn't that mean that some invariably die? ;)

But also that some invariably survive! ;) ;)

 

This is all going to come down to rolling a D6 isn't it . . .