NIGHT RIPPER Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 2+ he is alive Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/158950-is-loken-alive/page/4/#findComment-1873803 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Tyrak Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 NIGHT RIPPER Posted Today, 06:02 PM 2+ he is alive 2+? Pah! Orbital Strike ignore armour saves, there are no Techmarines around to fortify the place, the best he can get is a 4+ Cover save. ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/158950-is-loken-alive/page/4/#findComment-1873819 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dyp100 Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 I think it's mean 3+, sure that was artificial during HH, also, everyone else had crap guns. XD Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/158950-is-loken-alive/page/4/#findComment-1873941 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castlerook Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 Doesn't that mean that some invariably die? ;) But also that some invariably survive! ;) ;) This is all going to come down to rolling a D6 isn't it . . . I think the AP value of any orbital missiles would negate any armour saves, and the templates would ignore cover as well. :) No save in that scenario. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/158950-is-loken-alive/page/4/#findComment-1874034 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucifer Fellblade Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 Doesn't that mean that some invariably die? ;) But also that some invariably survive! ;) ;) This is all going to come down to rolling a D6 isn't it . . . I think the AP value of any orbital missiles would negate any armour saves, and the templates would ignore cover as well. :) No save in that scenario. Main characters 2+ invuln save. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/158950-is-loken-alive/page/4/#findComment-1874038 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Tyrak Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 Main characters 2+ invuln save. And this doesn't happen for , oh I don't know, Ferrus Manus? Fulgrim? Horus? Sanguinius? The Emperor? Even Abaddon only gets a 3+ Inv, and he's already contracted for Horus Heresy: The Sequel. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/158950-is-loken-alive/page/4/#findComment-1874049 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castlerook Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 Main Characters whose life (and possible death) only serves to advance the story don't get a 2+ invun save! They get some girders and a couple of layers of ceramite, which is at best a 6+ cover, it would be more, but its been weaked through a Firestorm, several weeks of cityfighting and a titan doing its impression of Micheal Flatley. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/158950-is-loken-alive/page/4/#findComment-1874059 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Irwin Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 Is Loken alive? No, now get over it. Steve Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/158950-is-loken-alive/page/4/#findComment-1874095 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 Too true. Just because we have a quote from somebody in orbit using a metaphor, when we have actual quotes from on the ground of the bombardment decimating everything it touches, and that he's being very thorough for where this bombardment touches, doesn't mean he's alive. Loken is covered in stuff that won't give protection, and the only thing saying he could survive is someone who has no idea what's happening on the ground. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/158950-is-loken-alive/page/4/#findComment-1874333 Share on other sites More sharing options...
NIGHT RIPPER Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 anybody know when we are likly to find out what happens to any possible survivors,even if loken bites it there must be the possibility of a couple of survivors Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/158950-is-loken-alive/page/4/#findComment-1874382 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 Well, nothing has ever been written about survivors, and we've already had Loyalists turn up in the Istvaan system after the bombings, with no mention of survivors. If anyone did survive, they didn't let anyone else know. And seeing as the Istvaan system has no strategic use after this, noone will be back there for a long, long time. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/158950-is-loken-alive/page/4/#findComment-1874437 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tutteman Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 Ok, imagine a the situation. Loken and co have surivived an are at their "underground hanger". Yay, they think. Then they realise something. I believe it says somewhere that every void capable craft in Choral City has been destroyed. So guys, what shall we do now. Well, we could fly up and attack Horus' fleet. On our own. Hmm...maybe not a good idea. Sure they can get off the planet if, IF there is an underground hanger, but what then. By no void capable craft that means no craft capable of interstellar travel. So they COULD be alive, but would then die a slow painful death of starvation, or in a blaze of "glory" attacking a hugely bigger fleet. Face it, Loken is dead. I liked him too, but all good things must come to an end... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/158950-is-loken-alive/page/4/#findComment-1874551 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dyp100 Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 Dude, remember Astarte having the ability to survive without food or drink by sleeping for 100's of years?... YEAHHHHHH. If they did get into the bunker, then they would be fine, most likely. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/158950-is-loken-alive/page/4/#findComment-1874630 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tutteman Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 Yes, Space Marines can enter what is basically a coma. But they can't get out of it themselves, AND my main point is this means that there is no way Loken could be the nameless warrior who interupts Horus and The Emperor's little heart to heart talk. Plus, show me something that tells us Loken is alive. There is NOTHING that says he is alive and a huge amount to suggest he is very dead. Sure it is possible that somehow survived. But it is also possible that every single oxygen particle in this room is about to crowd up in one corner for a few miliseconds. Is this discussion only going to be solved by a big neon sign on the next book saying "LOKEN IS DEAD" Nothing suggests he is alive, and if he is then he is stranded on a barren planet, with no transport and nobody is coming to help him. Hell, I wouldn't be suprised if the newly formed Inquisition went back and virus bombed the planet again. Just to purge it. Like I said, I liked Loken, but the writers decided to be sensible and kill him off rather than have the series focus on him. It freed them up to move around. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/158950-is-loken-alive/page/4/#findComment-1874724 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jubei124 Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 Is this discussion only going to be solved by a big neon sign on the next book saying"LOKEN IS DEAD" Yes that is what it would take. :) I wouldn't be suprised if the newly formed Inquisition went back and virus bombed the planet again. Just to purge it. They don't really exist yet, but what is the point in bombing a dead planet when any threat would have been taken care of by the Imperial Fists when they arrive. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/158950-is-loken-alive/page/4/#findComment-1874755 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 But why would the Fists do anything? As far as they know, everything down there is dead. No reason to investigate. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/158950-is-loken-alive/page/4/#findComment-1874935 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Tyrak Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 Lord_Caerolion Posted Today, 09:44 PM But why would the Fists do anything? As far as they know, everything down there is dead. No reason to investigate. The Fists don't actually get to Isstvaan III, in Mechanicum they have been recalled (a plot device so Sigismund can lead the attack on Mars) before arriving. Dorn considers the plaent finished (p330). They won't leave Terra again, Dorn is waiting for the rest of the Loyalists to recieve his message and assemble at Terra, and as we know that doesn't happen before Horus turns up. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/158950-is-loken-alive/page/4/#findComment-1875005 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 Well, I was replying to Jubei, but you can replace the word "Fists" with the name of any of the other Loyalist Legions, and it would still be true. They have no reason to go there, and if the Sallies, Raven Guard and Iron Hands didn't pick up any distress signal, then noone did. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/158950-is-loken-alive/page/4/#findComment-1875017 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tutteman Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 I see the point about bombing an "empty" planet, but the Big I is hardly known for being moderate. And at the very least they would declare the system to be off limits to all. BUT the point remains that the loyalist of Istvaan are ALL DEAD. Nothing suggests otherwise (any info the says otherwise show me now. OR forever hold your peace :D ) IF Loken and co survived in an underground bunker the they can.. A. Enter a sus-an cycle and put themselves in a coma which they cannot awake themselves from. B. Starve to death C. Go on some wild charge at the Warmaster's fleet (and die) Some great options there. :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/158950-is-loken-alive/page/4/#findComment-1875771 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorb Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 I have the ultimate defense for Loken being alive. PLOT ARMOUR! Hey, it's helped the Ultramarines conquer the galaxy by themselves; why can't it save Loken's life? :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/158950-is-loken-alive/page/4/#findComment-1875837 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Tyrak Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 Gorb Posted Today, 04:57 PM I have the ultimate defense for Loken being alive. PLOT ARMOUR! Deus Ex Machina strikes again! :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/158950-is-loken-alive/page/4/#findComment-1875850 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tutteman Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 PLOT ARMOUR. How could I have been so blind. That made me laugh, thanks Gorb. I just may attach the Ultramarines bit to my sig. :D PLOT ARMOUR (shakes head disbelieving while chuckling) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/158950-is-loken-alive/page/4/#findComment-1875880 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Khammon Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 /Buzzes the intercom and leaves the message : "Garviel Loken is dead." Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/158950-is-loken-alive/page/4/#findComment-1879273 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castlerook Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 Garviel Loken - Now known as the Marine Flavoured Pancake. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/158950-is-loken-alive/page/4/#findComment-1879279 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axel Slice Posted February 14, 2009 Share Posted February 14, 2009 The only things that realy seem to be in debate here are weather Lokens 'blackout' was him dying or simply slipping out of conciousnes, and wether the bombardment would have destroyed his body. Now, even if he has merely become comatose AND the bombardment manages to pass him by (which i find doubtfull) he is still in a poor position. His protective bone plate (i forget its name) over his lungs is SHATTERED. not broken, shatterd. he cannot feel or move his legs (which takes some doing for a space marine) and "He coughed up clots of blood with every breath and he was sure each one would be his last as the will to live seeped from his body" this sounds to me like he has some serious internal bleeding, and that the clotting mechanism isn't healing the wound like it was intended to. more than that he knows he is dying, he can feel it, and is slowly giving up the fight to live. in that condition, regardless of what effect the bombardment has, there is no-one else around to help him as the only ones in the vicinity were Aximand and Abbadon, and neither of them are going to help him, the chances of there being other marines on the planet able to come find him AND bring him to a state where he is able to move freely etc is all but impossible so the 'he might have hid in the bunker' idea is pointless, he could not get there. in the end, there is no way he could have survived, because he is too badly wounded and trapped to survive. maby if there was an apothacary with a fully equiped medical supply and a few more marines to dig him out and an extraction vessel to get him to a ship for propper treatement he could have survived those wounds, but there wasn't. he was close to death, and he knew it. no-one who might want to help him knew where he was. he cannot help himself. even if he survives the bombardment, with those well described wounds he would not last very long at all, even as a space marine. even if by some amazing twist of fate they don't kill him, he is stuck on the planet with no supplies, no way to call for help, nothing. all he can do is sit there and rot. If Loken ever comes back, it will be a sad day for 40K fluff. i loved the character, but he is dead. what exactly killed him can be debated till the Grox comes home, but i can see no way for him to survive all the different things that were conspiring to end him. greivous battle wounds, trapped under piles of rubble, all alone on a dead planet that has been orbitaly bombarded on a huge scale. someone, please give me a logical way for him to survive ALL THAT (i can see perhaps the bombardment but the wounds would have him) and i will concede there is a chance. but i simply cannot see one. that said, of the horus heresy series i have only read the initial trilogy and Eisenstein, so i might have missed future details. wall of text ftw. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/158950-is-loken-alive/page/4/#findComment-1882220 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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