Is Loken alive?

[eyescrossed]

Wait - I'm only up to False Gods...

Loken dies?

:whistling: :( :( :)

[Grand Master Tyrak]

someone, please give me a logical way for him to survive ALL THAT

 

Well, knowing the Black Library, plot armour or deus ex machina. Not exactly logical, but it's how they would do it. :)

[Axel Slice]

someone, please give me a logical way for him to survive ALL THAT

 

Well, knowing the Black Library, plot armour or deus ex machina. Not exactly logical, but it's how they would do it. :)

 

True, it is quite possible that black library will bring him back in such a manner. It does not mean they should, and it would not make it any less stupid. It was written so that he is dead. while it was done with enough styleisation for it to be a little grey it is still a death. In the 40k universe there is always a way to Dues Ex Machina a character back to life. if someone wanted they could write an M41 story with any number of the Primarchs as key characters, because most of them have some ambiguity to their exact fate and quite how dead they are. It does not mean that their published ends were not meant to be like deaths. It does not mean 'ressurecting' them would be a good idea.

 

I guess my argument now is 'Loken is dead, but the writers get to play 'god', so he could appear again. He shouldn't though.'

 

I doubt however that he is the marine that horus kills on his battlebarge. It would just be too convinent. I personaly like the idea of it being Aximand, even though that is kinda doubtfull to. He showed so much remorse about having to kill his freinds, i hope we see him again. its just to much of an interesting story to not follow up on. That said, only gotten up to Eisenstein so far, so if he is emntioned again in current works, i don't know about it.

[Lord_Caerolion]

And for those who doubt the power of what Exterminatus does, in the Tyranid Codex we have a description of a planet which is hit by cyclonic torpedoes, and as such has its surface reduced to free-floating ash. No structures, just ash. Admittedly, a Carnifex does manage to somehow survive, but this is said to be the only recorded instance of any being surviving a bombardment.

[eyescrossed]

No, the Carnifex was Cyclone Torpedoed AFTER it was found.

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

Too true. Just because we have a quote from somebody in orbit using a metaphor, when we have actual quotes from on the ground of the bombardment decimating everything it touches, and that he's being very thorough for where this bombardment touches, doesn't mean he's alive. Loken is covered in stuff that won't give protection, and the only thing saying he could survive is someone who has no idea what's happening on the ground.

The quote is from Lucius. The one who knew all people in question and who had been with them planet side. Lucius believes that there is no way anyone could survive what Horus unleashed on the planet an so there for all must be dead. What is funny here is that he is not alone. People here agree with him.... Lucius the Eternal, The arogent overconfident jerk. What is the point of the author going through the effort of having Elidion ask about Loken, Tarvitz and Rylanor and having Lucius believe they are all dead, if not to later show how he was wrong? Theses are Dramatis Personae, all other like that who died where confirmed kills. Just some how Tarvitz and Loken's deaths are left open to debate?

Well, nothing has ever been written about survivors, and we've already had Loyalists turn up in the Istvaan system after the bombings, with no mention of survivors. If anyone did survive, they didn't let anyone else know. And seeing as the Istvaan system has no strategic use after this, noone will be back there for a long, long time.

 

You are wrong, I do think there was something written about the survivors.....

 

With regards to the origins of the Grey Knights, there is an important source to be found in Horus Heresy: Vol. IV Visions of Death. Although it doesn't state explicitly that those mentioned are the Grey Knights, the text certainly implies this to be the case.

 

 

Malcador gestured to the [twelve] hooded figures behind him, as he did so four of them stepped forward and knelt before the Emperor. The Emperor nodded an acknowledgement of their show of fealty to him.

 

'Sire, these others are known to you. Each of them is a Space Marine. They have cast aside their allegiance to Primarch and Legion who have sided with Horus and pledged themselves anew to you, their Emperor and father. I have chosen these eight since allied to their unflinching loyalty, they are each blessed with paranormal skills, kept dormant in respect of your previous commands. However these skills are most apt in combating the horrors that have recently emerged from the warp and I know that they will be needed in the coming years.'

 

'Malcador you have judged well, these eight Space Marines do indeed have a vital role to play in the future of the Imperium, though veiled in secrecy will they be.'

 

 

Oh snap.

 

Oh snap is RIGHT!!! hmmmmmmm. Ok i'm going to be the first to name these eight Space Marines, and four others.

 

1) Saul Tarvitz Captain, 10th Company, Emperors Children, III Legion.

 

2) Garviel Loken Captain 10th Company, Luna Wolves, XVI Legion.

 

3) Nethaniel Garro Battle-Captain 7th Company, Death Guard, XIV Legion.

 

4) Iacton Qruze, 'the Half-heard', Captain 3rd Company, Luna Wolves, XVI Legion.

 

5) Zahariel, Dark Angels, I Legion.

 

6) ??

 

7) ??

 

8) ??

 

9) Amendera Kendel

 

10) Kyril Sindermann

 

11) Mersadie Oliton

 

12) Euphrati Keeler

 

Who could theses Survivors be if not those who i name?

 

Yes, Space Marines can enter what is basically a coma. But they can't get out of it themselves, AND my main point is this means that there is no way Loken could be the nameless warrior who interupts Horus and The Emperor's little heart to heart talk. Plus, show me something that tells us Loken is alive. There is NOTHING that says he is alive and a huge amount to suggest he is very dead. Sure it is possible that somehow survived. But it is also possible that every single oxygen particle in this room is about to crowd up in one corner for a few miliseconds. Is this discussion only going to be solved by a big neon sign on the next book saying

"LOKEN IS DEAD"

Nothing suggests he is alive, and if he is then he is stranded on a barren planet, with no transport and nobody is coming to help him. Hell, I wouldn't be suprised if the newly formed Inquisition went back and virus bombed the planet again. Just to purge it. Like I said, I liked Loken, but the writers decided to be sensible and kill him off rather than have the series focus on him. It freed them up to move around.

 

The only things that realy seem to be in debate here are weather Lokens 'blackout' was him dying or simply slipping out of conciousnes, and wether the bombardment would have destroyed his body. Now, even if he has merely become comatose AND the bombardment manages to pass him by (which i find doubtfull) he is still in a poor position. His protective bone plate (i forget its name) over his lungs is SHATTERED. not broken, shatterd. he cannot feel or move his legs (which takes some doing for a space marine) and

 

"He coughed up clots of blood with every breath and he was sure each one would be his last as the will to live seeped from his body"

 

this sounds to me like he has some serious internal bleeding, and that the clotting mechanism isn't healing the wound like it was intended to. more than that he knows he is dying, he can feel it, and is slowly giving up the fight to live. in that condition, regardless of what effect the bombardment has, there is no-one else around to help him as the only ones in the vicinity were Aximand and Abbadon, and neither of them are going to help him, the chances of there being other marines on the planet able to come find him AND bring him to a state where he is able to move freely etc is all but impossible so the 'he might have hid in the bunker' idea is pointless, he could not get there. in the end, there is no way he could have survived, because he is too badly wounded and trapped to survive. maby if there was an apothacary with a fully equiped medical supply and a few more marines to dig him out and an extraction vessel to get him to a ship for propper treatement he could have survived those wounds, but there wasn't.

 

he was close to death, and he knew it. no-one who might want to help him knew where he was. he cannot help himself. even if he survives the bombardment, with those well described wounds he would not last very long at all, even as a space marine. even if by some amazing twist of fate they don't kill him, he is stuck on the planet with no supplies, no way to call for help, nothing. all he can do is sit there and rot.

 

If Loken ever comes back, it will be a sad day for 40K fluff. i loved the character, but he is dead. what exactly killed him can be debated till the Grox comes home, but i can see no way for him to survive all the different things that were conspiring to end him. greivous battle wounds, trapped under piles of rubble, all alone on a dead planet that has been orbitaly bombarded on a huge scale. someone, please give me a logical way for him to survive ALL THAT (i can see perhaps the bombardment but the wounds would have him) and i will concede there is a chance. but i simply cannot see one. that said, of the horus heresy series i have only read the initial trilogy and Eisenstein, so i might have missed future details.

 

wall of text ftw.

 

Well the point really i think you both are missing here is not that Loken was in bad shape and unable to help himself. It was that he was not the only survivor. Those who did some how survive would be very keen and able to find other survivors i think. Loken and Tarvitz where both close to BFF, Both Honored by the Emperor and at that point had been through the hardest WAR we could dream of. If Tarvitz survived i think Loken has a way he could have done also. You are right that "There is NOTHING that says he is alive and a huge amount to suggest he is very dead." There is also NOTHING that says he is dead.

 

Wait - I'm only up to False Gods...

Loken dies?

:D :o :( :)

 

That is a matter of opinion at this point, thus this thread.

 

And for those who doubt the power of what Exterminatus does, in the Tyranid Codex we have a description of a planet which is hit by cyclonic torpedoes, and as such has its surface reduced to free-floating ash. No structures, just ash. Admittedly, a Carnifex does manage to somehow survive, but this is said to be the only recorded instance of any being surviving a bombardment.

 

What dose Exterminatus have to do with this thread? Horus did not unleash an Exterminatus level event. This was a Orbital Bombardment. You know like the =][= can call into play on the 40k TT..... sure it might have been a STRONG one but no Exterminatus. I can tell you one thing about Orbital Bombardment. from some one who uses it in 40K. You don't ever kill what you where aiming at. The word Inaccurate comes to mind. The Virus Bombing Horus stated the War with was much more cataclysmic then the Final Bombing anyhoo. look how many Survived that...

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Who could theses Survivors be if not those who i name?

 

Well, IF we make the major assumption that they become Grey Knights, there are 68 survivors who fled on the Eisenstein. They are first in line to be these eight because they actually got off the planet.

 

If you think Tarvitz is coming to help Loken, Tarvitz isn't even bothering to take cover from the bombardment.

[Tutteman]

This like the 2+2=5 sum. It is POSSIBLE.

If you make HUGE assumptions. Right, Loken is half dead already and being bombed and you want me to believe that he somehow survived and BUT can't get off the planet so HOW ON EARTH (or terra) could he ethier the unknown warrior or form the Grey Knights.

 

IF HE IS ALIVE HE IS STUCK ON THE PLANET AND CANNOT LEAVE THE SYSTEM.

[Heru]

they are each blessed with paranormal skills, kept dormant in respect of your previous commands. However these skills are most apt in combating the horrors that have recently emerged from the warp and I know that they will be needed in the coming years.'

That means the eight were Psykers. Loken wasn't a Psyker.

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

they are each blessed with paranormal skills, kept dormant in respect of your previous commands. However these skills are most apt in combating the horrors that have recently emerged from the warp and I know that they will be needed in the coming years.'

That means the eight were Psykers. Loken wasn't a Psyker.

ohh yeh, sory. Guess that is just another of my hair brained assumptions. I feel that he showed this ability when he beat Lucius in the sparing cage, in Horus rising pg 377. I'm sure many will disagree though.... prescience if i had to guess. Just one of the abilities that the Emp had supresed in his Astartes.

 

I would definately have to disagree with that. I mean if Loken had that ability he should have forseen Horus's fall not to mention every other calamity that befell the Luna Wolves/Sons Of Horus. I read it that in that fight instead of fighting with swords like Lucius was expecting Loken just jumped on top him and beat the crap outta Lucius, Luna Wolves style. :P But to each there own.

 

 

"I've been watching you, of course, the attacking strokes. I can read you"

"you wish"

" I can read you. Come for me"

Lucius lunged at Loken. Loken side- stepped, blade down, and punched Lucius in the face. Lucius fell on his back, hard.

 

 

 

 

As far as Swordsmen go and fighters Lucius is the best of the best. Loken was better. Seems to me he had an advantage....

 

Loken was "blessed with paranormal skills, kept dormant"...... Dormant and suppressed. I know you will say that is just my imagination but what ever. Loken was a Psyker... So is Lucius.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Link

 

You tried that argument before, being in a fight and knowing someone is going to try to hit you is not supernatural prescience. Studying someone's style of fighting and working out the flaws is not supernatural prescience. Even I can work out that an somewhat arrogant swordsman who fights by a code of honour is likely to leave himself open to a kick in the balls. :rolleyes:

[Heru]

blessed with paranormal skills, kept dormant in respect of your previous commands.

Is actually a reference to the fact that the use of sorcery (psychic powers) was banned at the Council of something or other. It doesn't reference hidden abilities that they don't know about, it references abilities that are intentionally suppressed. They didn't just execute the Librarians afterall.

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

blessed with paranormal skills, kept dormant in respect of your previous commands.

Is actually a reference to the fact that the use of sorcery (psychic powers) was banned at the Council of something or other. It doesn't reference hidden abilities that they don't know about, it references abilities that are intentionally suppressed. They didn't just execute the Librarians afterall.

 

So you are saying that all of the ones who had thier abilities suppressed knew it? If so where do you get that? Because the Empire is such a nice place that they are above brainwashing their soldiers? I think not.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

So you are saying that all of the ones who had thier abilities suppressed knew it? If so where do you get that? Because the Empire is such a nice place that they are above brainwashing their soldiers? I think not.

 

Yes, they are above it at this point. This is not the Age of the Imperium, remember. This is still the enlightened age of the Great Crusade - grimdark as we know it does not exist yet. Besides, if the psykers were brainwashed, did they just accidentally forget the Thousand Sons Legion?

[Heru]

blessed with paranormal skills, kept dormant in respect of your previous commands.

Is actually a reference to the fact that the use of sorcery (psychic powers) was banned at the Council of something or other. It doesn't reference hidden abilities that they don't know about, it references abilities that are intentionally suppressed. They didn't just execute the Librarians afterall.

 

So you are saying that all of the ones who had thier abilities suppressed knew it? If so where do you get that? Because the Empire is such a nice place that they are above brainwashing their soldiers? I think not.

 

 

In respect of your previous commads.

The "in respect" part means they were knowingly doing it, not because they were ignorant.

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

blessed with paranormal skills, kept dormant in respect of your previous commands.

Is actually a reference to the fact that the use of sorcery (psychic powers) was banned at the Council of something or other. It doesn't reference hidden abilities that they don't know about, it references abilities that are intentionally suppressed. They didn't just execute the Librarians afterall.

 

So you are saying that all of the ones who had thier abilities suppressed knew it? If so where do you get that? Because the Empire is such a nice place that they are above brainwashing their soldiers? I think not.

 

 

In respect of your previous commads.

The "in respect" part means they were knowingly doing it, not because they were ignorant.

 

 

Well even if you feel that Loken or Saul were not psykers you cant think Garro was not do you? Did it seem like he knew he was or that he was feeling his way through it? If he did not know his abilities and they were suppressed then i think others where in the same boat. I don't think the Emperor would command that all who had abilities suppress their own. I think Malacore had some testing of new recruits and then if they tested positive they would be given special treatment with out their knowledge. Maybe the Primarcs new. As for the Thousand sons, they were not listing to the Emperor on this point as to it seems were the Dark Angles. Why and how this was i don't know but maybe we will find out.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Well even if you feel that Loken or Saul were not psykers you cant think Garro was not do you? Did it seem like he knew he was or that he was feeling his way through it?

 

No. :rolleyes: Garro did have strengths the others did not though, called Faith. The Sisters of Battle manage to perform superhuman acts perfectly well despite not being psychic, Garro is simply exhibiting an earlier example of this.

[Tutteman]

If Loken was a Psyker then, no don't tell me, he magically made a interstellar ship appear from thin air and the he grew a third eye and navigated the ship to Terra....If Loken was a psyker he is still dead! :rolleyes: And dead people don't walk into the Emperor and Warmaster's heart to heart chats and don't form Inquistions! LOKEN IS DEAD.

[Simonius]

I am rapidly becoming of the opinion that all Marines are potentially psychic, its just that it only openly mainfests in those that become librarians - in the rest it is latent, sub-conscious and/or suppressed. Upon occassion it assists Marines in battle etc. with "gut feelings" that are much stronger than the rest of us normal humans.

 

Think about it - Emperor (the most powerful human psyker ever), creates the Primarchs from his own genetic material, some are openly psychic, but I'm sure I read somewhere that they all are. When they are lost he uses the remaing genetic material to create the first space marines. I think it would be sensible to assume that even the amount of manipulation of the material that takes place in this process doesn't weed out the psychic potential stuff from his Nibs.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

@Simonius - all humans are psychic (apart from Pariahs, who are few and far between). However, most do not have the capability to actively use those psychic talents. Those who do are the ones we refer to as "psykers". Same deal for Marines.

[Castlerook]

Ok, well, if we're going to go for the "Magically-coming-back-to-life-,-escaping-from-a-dead-planet-and-throwing-yourself-onto-Horus'-weapon-to-help-the-Emperor" arguement, lets bring back every other dead character from the 30K-40K Universe.

 

Horus, hes dead, lets bring him back to life. Oh no, wait....Horus is DEAD!

Sanguinius had his heart ripped out, thats nothing....Whats that? Can't come back from the dead? Oh well, nevermind.

Ferrus Manus, ah, his head got chopped off, we can stick that back on with some superglue. Oh, sorry, he died, guess that won't happen then!

 

There are major characters who shaped the galaxy and whose influence extends 10000 years who have died, and have not come back. Ask yourself this then;

Loken was, to all intents and purposes, a minor player in the Heresy, he just provided the everyman view of the galaxy and the events before and leading up to the Heresy. Why should he get the God-Mode cheat when so many other characters are far more deserving of it? Why should Primarchs be so easy to kill, when one marine should survive so much devastation and death? The true purpose of Loken, Tarvitz, Torgaddon and the other marines who died on that world, was to show that the Humanity in the Traitors was dead, they cut out the small voice in the back of their collective mind, telling them what they were planning was wrong and against everything they swore and stood for.

Loken and Co. represented all that was good in the Traitors, and their death represents the fact that the Legions are now beyond redemption.

[JEFF4i]

Poor horsey, he can take no more!

[TheNightHawk]

Horus, hes dead, lets bring him back to life. Oh no, wait....Horus is DEAD!

Sanguinius had his heart ripped out, thats nothing....Whats that? Can't come back from the dead? Oh well, nevermind.

Ferrus Manus, ah, his head got chopped off, we can stick that back on with some superglue. Oh, sorry, he died, guess that won't happen then!

 

I doubt loken would have survived the orbital bombardment, even if he did survive the Virus bomb and the inferno that followed.

The only survivors of that planet that I could see are MAYBE Tarvitz, and most likely the Dreadnought of the Emperors Children, if only because he was seen decending into the underground levels of the city, into a Airbase hanger of some kind. Which tend to be built to survive a serious amount of punishment. And Saul was last seen trying to find him I believe...

 

And Horus was cloned at one point I think... by Fabius Bile, trying to create a new primarch, but Abbadon came and killed it before it was finished, but yeah other than that Horus is dead, as are all the others. And not coming back. Some, i say SOME here are brought back as dreadnoughts. But Loken is unlikely to be one of them.

 

I still think that Ralynor is most likely one of the few survivors of that planet.

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

There are major characters who shaped the galaxy and whose influence extends 10000 years who have died, and have not come back. Ask yourself this then;

Loken was, to all intents and purposes, a minor player in the Heresy, he just provided the everyman view of the galaxy and the events before and leading up to the Heresy. Why should he get the God-Mode cheat when so many other characters are far more deserving of it? Why should Primarchs be so easy to kill, when one marine should survive so much devastation and death? The true purpose of Loken, Tarvitz, Torgaddon and the other marines who died on that world, was to show that the Humanity in the Traitors was dead, they cut out the small voice in the back of their collective mind, telling them what they were planning was wrong and against everything they swore and stood for.

Loken and Co. represented all that was good in the Traitors, and their death represents the fact that the Legions are now beyond redemption.

 

Strong words about "Legions are now beyond redemption.", coming form a player of the "Unforgiven" ;) I guess you missed this lil tidbit so ill repost it.... AGAIN. Seems to me maybe the "small voice" is still yappin.

Malcador gestured to the [twelve] hooded figures behind him, as he did so four of them stepped forward and knelt before the Emperor. The Emperor nodded an acknowledgement of their show of fealty to him.

 

'Sire, these others are known to you. Each of them is a Space Marine. They have cast aside their allegiance to Primarch and Legion who have sided with Horus and pledged themselves anew to you, their Emperor and father. I have chosen these eight since allied to their unflinching loyalty, they are each blessed with paranormal skills, kept dormant in respect of your previous commands. However these skills are most apt in combating the horrors that have recently emerged from the warp and I know that they will be needed in the coming years.'

 

'Malcador you have judged well, these eight Space Marines do indeed have a vital role to play in the future of the Imperium, though veiled in secrecy will they be.'

 

One thing i still don't understand is why you all are ready to write off theses men when they are ONLY being hit with an "Orbital Bombardment". Looking at the Version that the =][= gets at best it would be Str 10 Ap1, Dot a STR D. With Inaccuracy that there is no reason to assume Horus would not have. Even If the Bombardment was x20 or more you cant tell me that would kill a 100 Marines in cover, i don't care if you only give them 5+ because the" did not bother to seek shelter". I think being on the bad end of this stick would suck big time but to agree with Lucius and think no one could survive through it is short sighted.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

One thing i still don't understand is why you all are ready to write off theses men when they are ONLY being hit with an "Orbital Bombardment". Looking at the Version that the =][= gets at best it would be Str 10 Ap1, Dot a STR D. With Inaccuracy that there is no reason to assume Horus would not have. Even If the Bombardment was x20 or more you cant tell me that would kill a 100 Marines in cover, i don't care if you only give them 5+ because the" did not bother to seek shelter". I think being on the bad end of this stick would suck big time but to agree with Lucius and think no one could survive through it is short sighted.

 

Well, putting Exterminatus in the game might just take the point out of it. ;) It even specifically says in the unit entry for Orbital Strike that it is a "more limited strike".

This is not some kind of half-measure by Horus because he feels like toying with the survivors in a typical evil stereotype manner (<insert evil laugh here>).