Is Loken alive?

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

Does raise an interesting thing though. With Loken alive and well and having a way off Istvaan, what was being held in that hanger? Garro's lot didn't even go there. Odd, ain't it?

 

True, but they didnt even mention them, which may means that Tarvitz, Rylanor et all may not have made it back YET. Guess we will just have to wait and see.

 

I too was hoping there would be mention of the ultimate fate of Tarvitz, Rylanor and co. When they were not mentioned by name i was disappointed. After listing to it again though i think there might be some hints that are hard to spot. It revolves around things Garro and Varren say.

 

In tracks 2 and 3 of Legion of one, first Varren then Garro, talk about the events of Istavaan III war with in detail. "We know Full Well what happened here." says Varren, to Rubio as he gets a reading on the dead spirits. Garro talks about how His brothers fought his Primarch.

 

Garro left the system as the Virus bombs were falling, how could he know for sure what happened afterward? I think he was told by Tarvitz. Also the fact that Varren is in the story at all is a hint. When Varren first appears in the fluff, it was in a story that named Tarvtiz and Garro. They escaped the Istavaan system together. I think that Varren was one of the confused looking World Eaters that was with Tarvitz at the end of GiF/ Fulgrim. I think when we get to hear Varren's story we will hear how Tarvitz, Rylanor and he escaped. Also it makes sense to me that Garro would bring some one with him that was apart of the war and had first hand knowledge, when he retured to Istvaan. Another thing is that Tarvitz and Garro are close friends. So close that they make a Oath of moment to meet on Terra. If his close friend was still unaccounted for, i would think he would be more interested in what happens to him. That this is not even touched on implies to me that the issue has been resolved.

 

Why do you want so bad for this thread to be closed? Just because now it is clear that Loken survived Istvaan III? Or you don't like reading why people think it's interesting? If you don't want to read what people think about it, you don't have too. People have been asking that threads that even talk about Loken be closed for years. Back when it was because we Loken survivalist, were just "crazy" fan boys. Now its because the issue has been over done?

Yeh i think it is just overdone - the threads normally start off well enough, people speculating if he is alive and such, then someone toddles along like Abnett saying "yes he is alive". That is definative, and should be the end of it, but then the thread rolls off course and ends up being a "i wonder what loken will be.." or a "i wonder how he escaped" type of thread.

 

If your going to do that, why not make a new thread and leave this to die? Makes sense. :yes:

 

Don't most threads wonder a bit off the point made by the OP? To close them just because some one goes of on a tangent is a overreaction i think. When some one makes a new thread on a old topic Ive seen people give them a hard time because they did not bother to do a search for old threads. Why make a thread called "Loken is alive now what?" when we have a "Is Loken alive?" thread ready to go? It might be just me but i get the feeling that the reason some people want this thread closed is because they don't like the fact that Loken lives. I can understand that but you don't have to read what other people say. No one is making you post. If you ignore the thread maybe it will go away.

[Pulse]

If you ignore the thread maybe it will go away.

I can only hope. :)

[Lord_Caerolion]

Does raise an interesting thing though. With Loken alive and well and having a way off Istvaan, what was being held in that hanger? Garro's lot didn't even go there. Odd, ain't it?

 

Well, they have to have some red herrings in the novel, otherwise every single little thing has a deeper meaning behind it. Personally I really hope they don't bring back Tarvitz, as otherwise we'll basically be having every named character on Istvaan surviving, which detracts from the tragedy of the event. People don't feel sad when nameless mooks die, if you want to make an audience feel sad about a tragedy, actually sad, kill off a main character. As it is it's starting to seem like this orbital bombardment didn't really kill anyone, despite utterly annihilating the city.

[Tutteman]

Well I never felt that Loken should survive, but if they do let him live somehow they better make sure they do it in a way that doesn't stink of Deus Ex Machina.

[KnightCommander_Almaric]

Well I never felt that Loken should survive, but if they do let him live somehow they better make sure they do it in a way that doesn't stink of Deus Ex Machina.

 

SPOILER:

 

 

BL AudioBook Garro: LEGION OF ONE has the answer

 

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

As it is it's starting to seem like this orbital bombardment didn't really kill anyone, despite utterly annihilating the city.

 

Yup, now if i could just get some people to help figure out /why/ this is. Got any Ideas? Even though you might not like it maybe you could give a guess. Mine is the first manifestation of the "Shrouding"

[Dinks]

Not to try and put a downer on things but it is actually pretty plausable that many people could survive an orbital bombardment, it depends on many factors like where they are when the shells start falling etc etc etc.

[lee265]

Does raise an interesting thing though. With Loken alive and well and having a way off Istvaan, what was being held in that hanger? Garro's lot didn't even go there. Odd, ain't it?

 

Well, they have to have some red herrings in the novel, otherwise every single little thing has a deeper meaning behind it. Personally I really hope they don't bring back Tarvitz, as otherwise we'll basically be having every named character on Istvaan surviving, which detracts from the tragedy of the event. People don't feel sad when nameless mooks die, if you want to make an audience feel sad about a tragedy, actually sad, kill off a main character. As it is it's starting to seem like this orbital bombardment didn't really kill anyone, despite utterly annihilating the city.

 

But I like the Idea that the Heresy is a comedy. It's rare to see fantasy war comedy. Why does everyone have to be so depressing with there we want a tragedy rant?

[Lord_Caerolion]

As it is it's starting to seem like this orbital bombardment didn't really kill anyone, despite utterly annihilating the city.

 

Yup, now if i could just get some people to help figure out /why/ this is. Got any Ideas? Even though you might not like it maybe you could give a guess. Mine is the first manifestation of the "Shrouding"

 

They're inside the city though, and if the city is annihilated it therefore means they were caught in it. This is especially true regarding Tarvitz and his men, who left cover to stand proudly as the bombardment fell. Even so, the Shrouding doesn't give inherent protection like a shield, it just means you aren't as likely to be seen. It gives no protection against the saturation of fire that would have existed during the bombardment. If it were a psychic shield that blocked bullets, then you could be right. Sadly, it isn't. It's a mental "shroud" that gets placed in the minds of enemies, making it harder for them to recognize the Grey Knights, something that doesn't mean much at all when things more powerful than nukes are landing all around you.

 

Secondly, a manifestation that size of the Shrouding would require a hell of a lot of psykers down on the surface, so unless every single Marine down on the planet was once a Librarian, it's just not possible, and even then, the chances of them all manifesting the same powers.

 

Now, I can accept Loken surviving if he was under lots of cover, and his area of the city wasn't hit as hard, but Tarvitz was inside the city, and outside of cover. He and his men would have been particles as soon as the lances hit. Too many people surviving the Massacres cheapens the whole thing. "Look how sad it is, all these Marines died in the name of righteousness... it's such a tragedy... LOL J/K!! They're all still alive! U mad, Horus?" And then Loken runs off into the distance, waving his arms like Trollface.

[gil galed]

Seems pretty clear to me that Loken was killed and was the resurrected by the Emperor/Malacador. Given the way he speaks of death it seems like he has died but was brought back and simply cannot now die.

 

Food for thought.

 

~Gil :jaw:

[Dominicus]

In "Galaxy in Flames, they leave no doubt really as to whether Loken is alive or not. He in half-dead already, in the open, when an orbital bombardment comes down. A normal Astartes with full battle plate and helm (Loken had no helm) would find it extremely difficult to survive that, so no, it is extremely unlikely that Loken is alive, let alone able to get across the galaxy in time to board Horus' battle barge and be killed.

 

Tarvitz is believed to have died in the Warsingers Temple (see "Galaxy in Flames") with the small remaining force of loyalists Marines who survived Angron's brutality, the virus bombing, and Lord Eidolon's breakthrough as a result of Lucius turning his shiny purple sports car down Eight-fold Avenue. The bombs are targeting the Warsingers Temple and the Precentor's Palace, so there is very little room to suggest any of those Marines survived the bombardment.

 

As for Ancient Rylanor, if you read the book "Fulgrim", you will find he dies during the virus bombing on Isstvaan III, a tiny crack in his armour allowing the virus to seep in and feast on his cadaverous body, leaving a hulking war machine sitting there with no pilot.

 

And I have a belief that Loken did not board the Vengeful Spirit to fight Horus, nor did Saul Tarvitz. I think it was Horus Aximand. In "Galaxy in Flames", Abbadon sees the remorse and regret Aximand has after slaying Torgaddon, his Mournival brother. He decides that Aximand would have to be watched in the coming times of their new Crusade. It would make sense, and would fit the story better, if Aximand suddenly had a change of heart and turned on his own primarch, who he, coincidentally, looks almost exactly like, giving us "Little Horus". Ironic... Horus, killed by Horus.

[gil galed]

In "Galaxy in Flames, they leave no doubt really as to whether Loken is alive or not. He in half-dead already, in the open, when an orbital bombardment comes down. A normal Astartes with full battle plate and helm (Loken had no helm) would find it extremely difficult to survive that, so no, it is extremely unlikely that Loken is alive, let alone able to get across the galaxy in time to board Horus' battle barge and be killed.

 

Tarvitz is believed to have died in the Warsingers Temple (see "Galaxy in Flames") with the small remaining force of loyalists Marines who survived Angron's brutality, the virus bombing, and Lord Eidolon's breakthrough as a result of Lucius turning his shiny purple sports car down Eight-fold Avenue. The bombs are targeting the Warsingers Temple and the Precentor's Palace, so there is very little room to suggest any of those Marines survived the bombardment.

 

As for Ancient Rylanor, if you read the book "Fulgrim", you will find he dies during the virus bombing on Isstvaan III, a tiny crack in his armour allowing the virus to seep in and feast on his cadaverous body, leaving a hulking war machine sitting there with no pilot.

 

And I have a belief that Loken did not board the Vengeful Spirit to fight Horus, nor did Saul Tarvitz. I think it was Horus Aximand. In "Galaxy in Flames", Abbadon sees the remorse and regret Aximand has after slaying Torgaddon, his Mournival brother. He decides that Aximand would have to be watched in the coming times of their new Crusade. It would make sense, and would fit the story better, if Aximand suddenly had a change of heart and turned on his own primarch, who he, coincidentally, looks almost exactly like, giving us "Little Horus". Ironic... Horus, killed by Horus.

 

Have you actually read this thread? Because Loken is quite clearly

alive

 

 

~Gil :huh:

[Torvak Kyre]

I think it would be awesome if Loken was alive!

When you think about it, he was trapped in some rubble so ,maybe, the virus didn't get to him . Anyway, he is astartes so would be able to cope with mortal wounds like a stab by a power sword. maybe

[Jim Shady]

As for Ancient Rylanor, if you read the book "Fulgrim", you will find he dies during the virus bombing on Isstvaan III, a tiny crack in his armour allowing the virus to seep in and feast on his cadaverous body, leaving a hulking war machine sitting there with no pilot.

 

Rylanor is alive. It was a Death Guard dread in Flight that was killed by a crack in his armour.

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

As it is it's starting to seem like this orbital bombardment didn't really kill anyone, despite utterly annihilating the city.

 

Yup, now if i could just get some people to help figure out /why/ this is. Got any Ideas? Even though you might not like it maybe you could give a guess. Mine is the first manifestation of the "Shrouding"

 

They're inside the city though, and if the city is annihilated it therefore means they were caught in it. This is especially true regarding Tarvitz and his men, who left cover to stand proudly as the bombardment fell. Even so, the Shrouding doesn't give inherent protection like a shield, it just means you aren't as likely to be seen. It gives no protection against the saturation of fire that would have existed during the bombardment. If it were a psychic shield that blocked bullets, then you could be right. Sadly, it isn't. It's a mental "shroud" that gets placed in the minds of enemies, making it harder for them to recognize the Grey Knights, something that doesn't mean much at all when things more powerful than nukes are landing all around you.

 

I agree that they were caught in the bombardment but

if the Building that Loken was in survived some what intact then others could. In Legion of One most of the buildings are laid flat but a few are still partially intact.

 

 

Now when you say " Tarvitz and his men, who left cover to stand proudly as the bombardment fell". i have to disagree. They did not leave cover to watch the bombs drop. They were in a ruin when the bombs started to fall and did not run for more cover. They knew it would not mean anything as the Warmaster was thorough. They did not lay their head on the chopping block but they did not turn their back in fear. The Shrouding Dose give the Grey Knights an "inherent protection". Deamonhunter Codex Pg 8, The Shrouding: "The combined psychic prayers of the Grey nights are focused in battle to constantly confuse and wrong-foot their enemies, blinding their corrupted senses with the shining light of their faith and resolution." If that dose not describe to a T, the situation the Loyalists were in i don't know what dose (other then the Word "Psychic"). Also you say "It gives no protection against the saturation of fire that would have existed during the bombardment." If you are right then why dose the same codex go on to say "Guess range weapons and ordnance weapons fire as normal but double their scatter distance if the Grey Knight targets are outside the spotting range rolled." a x2 scatter distance seems to be a very effective protection against the fire they were taking. Now if you add in the "In(accuracy" of a orbital strike. Deamonhunter Codex Pg 31, "Even for ships in low orbit, precision fire is extremely difficult. An Orbital Strike scatters just like ordnance weapon but if a miss is rolled the distance scattered is double the nubler scored on the d6. If a hit is rolled, the template deviates by the distance shown on the dice...." That means if you fire a Orbital strike at a Grey Knight you at minimum you Double and at worse you x4 the distance. This is only for shots that would otherwise hit them. That to me says GOOD LUCK hitting a GK from orbit. That all this information is in the same codex.....

 

 

Secondly, a manifestation that size of the Shrouding would require a hell of a lot of psykers down on the surface, so unless every single Marine down on the planet was once a Librarian, it's just not possible, and even then, the chances of them all manifesting the same powers.

 

Now before i read the new GK Codex i would have agreeed with you however the Dex has some new information of the Shrouding. Now it is a Psychic power cast by a single Librarian that gives him and any unit he is with protection. To me that says that maybe a single, or small number, can protect many.

 

 

Now, I can accept Loken surviving if he was under lots of cover, and his area of the city wasn't hit as hard, but Tarvitz was inside the city, and outside of cover. He and his men would have been particles as soon as the lances hit. Too many people surviving the Massacres cheapens the whole thing. "Look how sad it is, all these Marines died in the name of righteousness... it's such a tragedy... LOL J/K!! They're all still alive! U mad, Horus?" And then Loken runs off into the distance, waving his arms like Trollface.

 

 

Tarvitz was in the same city as Loken. They were fighting together until Loken went to meet his Mornivoul Brothers. He had to walk there so it could not be all that far. It seems that the City was not whipped off the map as Horus ordered. I do understand that a mariene can walk a long distance in a short time but there is no evidence that they were is different city's. They both saw bombs dropping. I think it's safe to assume they were in different parts of the same big city.

In Legion of One, the city Cerebus is in is described as Dead, with deep impact craters. I don't think he lived because he was at a safe distance. His survival is because of something else.

 

 

To say they are all alive is a bit over the top. One hundred out of the tens of thousand is safely under 1 %.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Not having listened to the audio-books though, does it actually mention taking in other survivors? If not, then Tarvitz didn't survive. "Yep, we're here to rescue you! No, not you, or you, or any of you, just this one guy. You guys... just sit around, there's this new group of guys called the Inquisition who'd like to talk to you".

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

Not having listened to the audio-books though, does it actually mention taking in other survivors? If not, then Tarvitz didn't survive. "Yep, we're here to rescue you! No, not you, or you, or any of you, just this one guy. You guys... just sit around, there's this new group of guys called the Inquisition who'd like to talk to you".

 

 

 

Quite frustratingly, no. No mention of Tarvitz or any other who was with him at the end of GiF. No mention of Rylanor either. Loken was the only one who Garro and Co, were looking for. This dose not mean that Tarvitz didn't survive.

Garro and Tarvitz were close friends. So close that they made a Oath of Moment to meet up back on Terra. If Tarvitz fate was unknown i can't see Garro not searching for any sign of him.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Surely though if Tarvitz survived he'd have been included amongst the 8? Finding another living Astartes on Istvaan is something they would have mentioned, really, so I can't see him having survived, or Rylanor for that matter...

[Artein]

They left Istvaan after finding Loken.

[Brother Rathul]

Isn't there a story of some Space Wolf fighting a fire worm or something where he was crushed by this massive building but the citizens there pulled him out and he was alive???? If a Space Wolf could do it, Loken could.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Except that Loken didn't just have a building fall on him, he had numerous bombs as powerful, if not more, as nukes fall around him. That's like saying "well, this one guy survived being punched, so this guy should survive being hit by a car".

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Isn't there a story of some Space Wolf fighting a fire worm or something where he was crushed by this massive building but the citizens there pulled him out and he was alive???? If a Space Wolf could do it, Loken could.

 

yes, yes there is. the story you are referring to is Thorgir and the Bladed Dragon. he brought the building down upon himself and his opponent to kill them both, only he managed to walk away. probably due to his terminator armor.

 

what would be a better analogy (perhaps) would be the short blurb that was published in 3rd ed when termie armor was given the 5+ invul we now get standard.the story tells of a blood claw pack see its wolf guard pack leader get stepped on by a titan...only to emerge angry and still in one piece, berating the claws for thinking he perished.

 

WLK

[Lord_Caerolion]

Except that, again, Loken had far, far more happen than just have a building collapse on him, and he was only wearing power armour, not Terminator armour, so it isn't a fitting analogy at all. Noone argued that Loken should have died because a building fell on him, we argued that he should have died because he had a building fall on him and nuke-equivalents flattened the city he was in.

If you're going to make comparisons, at least attempt to have them on the same scale of damage. As I said above, it's equivalent to saying people can survive getting punched, so therefore he should survive getting run over by a car. An impact is involved in both, so there's some amount of common ground, but one is far, far worse than the other.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Except that, again, Loken had far, far more happen than just have a building collapse on him, and he was only wearing power armour, not Terminator armour, so it isn't a fitting analogy at all. Noone argued that Loken should have died because a building fell on him, we argued that he should have died because he had a building fall on him and nuke-equivalents flattened the city he was in.

If you're going to make comparisons, at least attempt to have them on the same scale of damage. As I said above, it's equivalent to saying people can survive getting punched, so therefore he should survive getting run over by a car. An impact is involved in both, so there's some amount of common ground, but one is far, far worse than the other.

 

 

okay, okay, i apoligize and officially recognize Loken's marty stu-ness.

 

WLK

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

Except that, again, Loken had far, far more happen than just have a building collapse on him, and he was only wearing power armour, not Terminator armour, so it isn't a fitting analogy at all. Noone argued that Loken should have died because a building fell on him, we argued that he should have died because he had a building fall on him and nuke-equivalents flattened the city he was in.

If you're going to make comparisons, at least attempt to have them on the same scale of damage. As I said above, it's equivalent to saying people can survive getting punched, so therefore he should survive getting run over by a car. An impact is involved in both, so there's some amount of common ground, but one is far, far worse than the other.

 

 

okay, okay, i apoligize and officially recognize Loken's marty stu-ness.

 

WLK

 

Where dose it say that Horus used atomic s? I've heard it said that orbital strikes where used and that there were large impact craters but i think you might be over stating the magnitude of ordinance. Either way, what ever was used missed the target and/ or were small enough in magnitude that

Even had Loken not been under a ton of rubble he still could have lived. Thats what i get from Legion of one.

 

 

If you have not heard Legion of one, i think you're thoughts of the deal would be changed a bit.

 

Again "he had numerous bombs as powerful, if not more, as nukes fall around him" is just over stated as far as i can tell.