Capt. Liam Shaw Posted January 29, 2009 Share Posted January 29, 2009 Hey all, did a search on this and couldn't find exactly what I am about to post. I played a game kill points game against tau last night and on the final turn I was trying to do this to get the 2 extra kill points needed to win the game. He had a broadside (represented by B ) and 2 stealth suits (represented by S) and I had a 5 man squad of space marines (represented by M) ready to assault. ps each '.' represents 1/2 inch ____B____ __S....S__<almost 2 inches between the bases of the stealth suits> _M..M..M __M..M My opponent said that I could not assault the broadside since I had to go between the 2 stealth suits, so did 2 other people watching the game, I disagreed but chose to abide with what everyone else said. Later that night I looked at rule book and the movement phase and decided this... since the gap between the 2 stealth suits was Greater than the size of my middle marines base size and according the RaW on page 11 of the small rule book "A Model may not move into or through the space occupied by another model (represented by its BASE) or through the gap between friendly models THAT IS SMALLER than its own base size." The interpretation I get out of that is you can't say push a model out of the way to assault a unit behind them, but if the gap is large enough between the front units models BASES for at least one of your assaulting models (moving in a straight line) and assuming that model moves first, you can reach the back unit and by declaring an assault on both units you can successfully attack both... Anyone else agree that I should have been able to assault both units? Eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Souchan Posted January 29, 2009 Share Posted January 29, 2009 As long as they still manage to maintain coherency and you adhere to the "first model to charge a unit has to be the closest to the unit and must assault the closest model" rules for both units, it's all good. the only reason you can't charge between models usually is the 1" rule, which goes poof in the assault round during assaults. (Heck you could probably do this in 4th too as both units are targets of the assault, but thats just random trivia these days^^) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steelmage99 Posted January 29, 2009 Share Posted January 29, 2009 If able, you have to get into base-to-base with the unit you assault. There is no holding back. If a model can reach the Broadside, it can most certainly also reach the Stealthsuit. So in that case you have to get as many marines as possible into base-to-base with the Stealthsuits. Only when that is no longer possible, can you place a model within 2" of a friendly model (into base to base with another unit for example). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt. Liam Shaw Posted January 29, 2009 Author Share Posted January 29, 2009 Sorry re-reading my post I did not state clearly that 1- during the shooting phase I declared that I was shooting at the broadside 2- I declared the assault first against the broadside, thinking that since the gap between the stealth suits was wider than 1 in and that my first middle marine (with a powerfist) had a clear straight line view of the broadside I would be able to move through the >1 in gap between the stealth suits, the the rest of my squad would also be able to attack the sealth suits... so not clear on what Souchan stated... As long as they still manage to maintain coherency and you adhere to the "first model to charge a unit has to be the closest to the unit and must assault the closest model" rules for both units, it's all good. since I declared the assault against the broadside, but he wasn't technically the closest unit or model, so does that mean that I couldn't do this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted January 29, 2009 Share Posted January 29, 2009 As far as I can tell, your move should have been legal. There was enough room to pass through to get to the broadside. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LPetersson Posted January 29, 2009 Share Posted January 29, 2009 Your move would've been entirely legal. Big Rulebook Page 34 - Assaulting Multiple Units: The closest attacking model must be moved to contact the closest model in the enemy unit against which the assault was declared. Then remaining models can assault models belonging to other enemy units as long as they keep following the rules for moving assaulting models. The only way it could've been illegal is if all your models could've reached the Broadside. At least as per my interpretation of the movement rules also on Page 34... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Souchan Posted January 29, 2009 Share Posted January 29, 2009 Sorry re-reading my post I did not state clearly that1- during the shooting phase I declared that I was shooting at the broadside 2- I declared the assault first against the broadside, thinking that since the gap between the stealth suits was wider than 1 in and that my first middle marine (with a powerfist) had a clear straight line view of the broadside I would be able to move through the >1 in gap between the stealth suits, the the rest of my squad would also be able to attack the sealth suits... so not clear on what Souchan stated... As long as they still manage to maintain coherency and you adhere to the "first model to charge a unit has to be the closest to the unit and must assault the closest model" rules for both units, it's all good. since I declared the assault against the broadside, but he wasn't technically the closest unit or model, so does that mean that I couldn't do this? You misunderstand the nature of the quote I'm afraid. I'll explain now I have the rest of your information. Start of Assault phase-->Closest Marine must assault closest model in target unit by the shortest possible route while moving around or past other models(in this case the closest broadside)---> (1) 2nd Marine may continue to reach the broadside or (2)you may now start a multiple unit assault----> If (2) you now once again have to have the closest Marine assault the closest stealth suit by the shortest route as possible---> now on a model per model you have to decide if they assault the broadside(following the, first not yet b2b models, then as close as possible etc all that stuff from p34) or do so against the stealths(once again following the rules of p34). HOWEVER, the models need to remain in coherency with the models that have already moved and by this visual if you have the first assault the broadsides(he has too as this is the unit you shot at) and have the 2nd go the the stealths i think they wont make the 2"(as he has to use the shortest route possible), you would probably have to have one or 2 more assault the broadside first before one could go for the stealths. Hope this helps clarify. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt. Liam Shaw Posted January 29, 2009 Author Share Posted January 29, 2009 Thanks Souchan (and others), It is definitely clearer and I believe I could have pulled off the win now instead of just a draw ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Souchan Posted January 29, 2009 Share Posted January 29, 2009 Thanks Souchan (and others),It is definitely clearer and I believe I could have pulled off the win now instead of just a draw ;) You are very welcome. ;) Ironically after looking this up made me realise I did it wrong in my last game and where my opponent conceded he might have put up a firmer fight. I made the error of starting the two assaults but only ended in coherency, I have no doubt i could never have done the dual one no matter how big I stacked them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted January 29, 2009 Share Posted January 29, 2009 For future reference, in case the thing comes up again, this are the two rules that are important for the issue: Rulebook, page 11, Movement, "Models in the Way": A model cannot move so that it touches an enemy model during the Movement and Shooting phases - this is only possible in an assault during the Assault phase. To keep this distinction clear, a model may not move within 1" of an enemy mode unless assaulting. Rulebook, page 34, "Moving Assaulting Models": All of the models in an assaulting unit make their assault move following the same rules as in the Movement phase, with the exception that they may be moved within 1" of enemy models. This means that assaulting models may still not move through friendly or enemy models, may not pass through gaps narrower than their base, and may not move into base contact with enemy models from a unit they are not assaulting. In the first quote, from the movement section, it is debatable whether models are allowed only to move within 1" of enemy models they are actually assaulting, or whether they can move within 1" of any enemy models as long as they are assaulting something. The quote from the assault section sounds more like you are allowed to move within 1" of models, even those you are not assaulting, since it specifically says that your model may not move through them, through gaps that would be too narrow, or into contact with them. It seems to permit moving within 1" of enemy models, regardless of whether they are being assaulted or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DevianID Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 I concur with the last post. They specificly removed the limit on not being able to get within 1 inch of the enemy (any enemy, not just one you are assaulting) because in 4th edtion there was something called the 'unchargable' formation where you intermingle 2 different units such that, due to bases being less than 1 inch big, it is not possible to assault unit A because unit B is right behind them, and unit B can not be assaulted because unit A surrounds them. AAAAA ABBBA ABBBA ABBBA AAAAA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott-S6 Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 Some appalling rules-lawyer must have come up with that one.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steelmage99 Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 In the interest of clarity there is one more rule that has to be kept in mind. Rulebook, page 34, Moving assaulting models Assaulting units must attempt to engage as many opposing models as possible with as many of their models as possible - no holding back! So a model might be able to reach an enemy model of another unit and still remain within 2" of a previously moved model (thus engaging a new unit), but if the model in question can reach the originally assaulted unit it must do so. Pulling off an assault on two enemy units is not as easy as it sounds. It takes a bit of carefull placement in the movement phase and some brainpower allocated to which models to move after the first (closest) one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rat of vengence Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 Why must they assault the originally assaulted unit? The rule you quoted certainly doesn't say that. It just says they must all attempt to engage. If they can't reach the other unit you want to assault, then yes, they must go the nearer one. But otherwise? RoV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nighthawks Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 the asaulting models can move to either target (or any viable target) so long as it is in keping with the rules for assault moves. there's no rule requiring them to move toward the primary designated target first, only the first model to move (closest to the primary designated target) has this restriction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Souchan Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 I'm with rat on this, that clause is a rule that must be adhered to with regular assauting. Once one multi assaults the rule must be adhered to, but only to the units being assaulted, while assaulting them, you have to keep making sure all those rules are adhered to on the unit being assaulted. The only point needed to adhere to between the 2 units however is the maintaining of coherency. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DevianID Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 The only grey area with multiple assaults is if coherency overrides making base contact. Thus, if you have a unit in the middle, 6 inches to the left is unit A and 6 inches to the right is unit B. The assaulting unit has enough models to maintain coherency and still assault unit A and unit B, but this will result in less models fighting. So, maintaining coherency is the most important rule, yet we must have as many models fight as possible, what do you do? Start A------TTTTTTT------B Result 1 (cant charge B cause cant maximize models) ATTTTTTT------------B Result 2 (can charge both cause coherency overrides engaged models) AT--T--T--T--T--T--TB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Souchan Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 It's not grey, the rules are quite clear that coherency is the one rule that must be done, so you're example wouldn't be possible. It is also, by the way, the mistake I mentioned making earlier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DevianID Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 Which example isnt possible? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nighthawks Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 Which example isnt possible? AT-T-T-T-TB is not likely possible as the assault move MUST be in an effort to engage each model with an enemy. in this example the models bridging the assaults are moved in an effort to maintain coherency and not following the rules for assault movement. legally pulling off multiple assaults in what amounts to different directions is very difficult. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Souchan Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 Ah sorry, result 2 I mean. The first model to charge has to be the closest and the only way the example could work is if the first unit charged has a large build up of the models that when finally one charges the 2nd unit it ends up in 2" coherency. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 For future reference, in case the thing comes up again, this are the two rules that are important for the issue: Rulebook, page 11, Movement, "Models in the Way": A model cannot move so that it touches an enemy model during the Movement and Shooting phases - this is only possible in an assault during the Assault phase. To keep this distinction clear, a model may not move within 1" of an enemy mode unless assaulting. In the first quote, from the movement section, it is debatable whether models are allowed only to move within 1" of enemy models they are actually assaulting, or whether they can move within 1" of any enemy models as long as they are assaulting something. Legatus- at the risk of sounding contrary ><; its not debatable at all. Its grammatically solid. If you are assaulting you can move within 1" of an enemy model. There is no additional information that alludes to the prerequisite of assaulting of the unit you wanted to move within 1" of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 The only grey area with multiple assaults is if coherency overrides making base contact. Thus, if you have a unit in the middle, 6 inches to the left is unit A and 6 inches to the right is unit B. The assaulting unit has enough models to maintain coherency and still assault unit A and unit B, but this will result in less models fighting. So, maintaining coherency is the most important rule, yet we must have as many models fight as possible, what do you do? Start A------TTTTTTT------B Result 1 (cant charge B cause cant maximize models) ATTTTTTT------------B Result 2 (can charge both cause coherency overrides engaged models) AT--T--T--T--T--T--TB Just to echo what Nighthawks said, result 2 cant be done since your first move will be from "T" to A or B...and this is the rule that most people forget...the next move must be in coherency with the previously moved model. Additionally, that model must try get into base to base with a model if possible. Multiple charges are much more difficult in 5th i've found. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rat of vengence Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 Difficult, but fun. I took two full squads of Firewarriors with 8 scouts flanking. :o Then another time two phalanxes of Necron Warriors. Gotta love multiple combats and higher initiative! RoV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DevianID Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 Ah, here is a question... do you need coherency the entire assault phase, or only at the end? Thus, if I move a model, must the second model moved be in coherency with the first, or does it not matter as long as the unit is in coherency at the end of the turn? Forget about multiple charges for the moment, as regardless of how many units are assaulting you must be in coherency. I have always played that coherency is an end result, but you guys make me wonder if each model moved must be in coherency with the last, so that models must be moved in a particular order. AKA A= attacker D = defender Step 1, closest model moved into base -AAAAAA A_______ DDDDDDD Step 2, is this move illegal???, because the second model moved is not in coherency with the first, regardless that the unit will be in coherency by the end of the assault move when all rest of the models have moved. -AAAAA- A______A DDDDDDD What line describes this and what page? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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