Captain Malachi Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 Ok, as I said in the other thread, we should basically follow the codex. This thread is a discussion topic for the HQ section on the codex. I suggest we start with the keeper, since it's the first unit in the codex (not including special characters), so here's a little list of pros and cons: Pros: Faster than a lot of MCs, Grenades, can instagib eldar and guard characters, pavane, always hits first, hit and run. Cons: Slower than some MCs, limited shooting, high cost. I've never used the keeper, so I'm opening this one up to people with a little more experience, so discuss. We'll move through unit by unit until we're done with the HQ, then I'll start a new thread for the elites and so on, other sections, such as sample army lists, whole army tactics and a hobby section can be done later. I'll try and keep track of what's been said and write the whole quide as we go, I'll think of a way to keep you all informed of what it's like as we go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron_Chaos_Brute Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 KoS: Bad model, awesome rules. It's basically a poor man's bloodthirster, but one that always goes before things that might possibly hurt it. No 3+ save hurts, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djkest Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 This is how I see it, you are free to disagree. The real strength of the GD of slaanesh is the speed an initiative. It's not quite as fast as a Bloodthirster, not quite as nasty in CC. Think about this- if you break a unit in CC, you will pretty much always catch them. You also will pretty much always go first. The addition of offensive and defensive grenades is nice, even if you get charged you are at no disadvantage. A common way to dispatch of an MC is massed attacks or a fist champion in a big unit. This demon is especially good at dealing with this. With defensive grenades, you would probably only get 2 fist attacks against you, and a 4+ invuln against it. Against rank and file troops, you will go first and shoot beat them down pretty good. Against MCs, you go first, I'd like to talk for a moment about upgrades. Pavane of Slaanesh. While this looks good, I would say do not take it. If you shoot this power, you can't run. You should be running to get into combat. While pavane has a little more utility, overall it is kind of a waste of points. I'd recommend just running and then using fleet to assault if you can. The more rounds of combat this thing sees, the better. Soporific Musk. Hit and Run. Could be useful to keep from getting tied up too long. I probably wouldn't take it. Could be very useful to advance to your next target, since you can move through the unit you were fighting, and move 3D6".... Transfixing gaze. This is interesting. I would probably take this, this would be incredibly useful against dreadnaughts, MCs, ICs, or many other types of units. While providing little protection from massed attacks, this could reduce some dreadnaughts down to 1 attack... wow... (when they assault you!) Unholy might: Better at killing tanks and wounding T5 and up models. I'd say worth it. Demonic Gaze: Tempting, but it will slow you down. With a BS of 4, this won't amount to much anyway. Instrument: On this GD, I don't think it would be worth taking. So for me, I'd be running my GD of slaanesh with Unholy Might and Transfixing Gaze.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 I also agree with pretty much everything djkest said. My recent favorite bit is the I10. Unless the broken force is I6 and rolls a 6 (or 7 and 5), nothing will ever get away and thus be slaughtered. Move + Fleet + assault has worked just fine without the need for wings; I've never been too far to not assault the 2nd turn it's on the table. I suppose a con for it is that it's not great for land raider hunting. S7 max + an average roll of 7 is only a glance...though with regular vehicles, the sheer amount of attacks more than makes up for it. I'd take Pavane if it wasn't so expensive... I'd take Hit & Run if combats lasted longer than one round... I'd take Instrument if I somehow missed or didn't wound with those 6 attacks...but sometimes I take it anyway. I personally love the model, though I definitely sprang for the last edition's model with the more animal head; it's more streamlined and "attractive" I guess, as that's what Slaanesh is all about. Bondage head kinda detracts from the overall image. But it's lightweight and easy to fit in a carry case, unlike a Bloodthirster with those huge wings. Now, Skarbrand is a different kind of thirster that's comparable to the KoS. No wings (fleet), higher WS, lower I, same attacks, reroll attacks! Combining the two in a 2000 game has been pretty effective, ensuring my three points on upgrades above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Malachi Posted January 30, 2009 Author Share Posted January 30, 2009 djkest, if I did take the keeper, I'd likely take the same as yours but add musk, so I can flee from things like termies that could actually take me down (so many power fists....), ==Me== has an interesting musk-pavane combo, but I'll leave that for him to explain. @Seahawk, some interesting points, but the model aspect should likely be left for the modelling section at the end (don't want to go off topic), and I figure Skarbrand will be done in the bloodthirster section. I agree on the raider hunting issue, though with 7 attacks odds are you'll go higher than 7 at least once on 2D6. Edit- Actually, you're right, Skarbrand is more similar to a keeper than a bloodthirster, who thinks we should discuss him now in relation to the keeper rather than later in relation to the 'thirster? Or should we discuss him entirely separately? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
==Me== Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 I'd treat Skarbrand as a unit all his own. I think the Keeper is ==My== favorite Greater Daemon (not including SCs). It's got speed, extremely high I, a ton of attacks, and some nasty combos all for a very attractive price tag. With grenades and I10 the Keeper is going first always and with such a high WS, S, and A it will do damage. While other Slaanesh units can go after MCs with rending, the Kipper is all about mauling infantry units. S6 isn't going to cut it against other MCs, so go after heavy infantry and the like. I use ==My== Keeper with Musk and Pavane. When it drops, Pavane or run as needed. The Keeper will get stuck in, kill 4-5 MEQs on the charge, effectively crippling a squad while taking <.5 wounds. Then, in your turn, use Musk to H&R away, giving you effectively an extra 2D6" of movement. This can be used to get closer to enemies down the line, catch up with vehicles and give it a better position. This gives the Keeper a 30" threat range, a full 12" more than a BT, though it requires him to be in combat beforehand. Pavane you have as insurance, either using it to draw enemy units closer to your lines or bunch up for templates. All this for the base cost of a BT is none too shabby. The other gifts I don't find nearly as useful. Unholy Might is great for going after tanks, but there are better picks in here and S6+2D6 is usually sufficient. Enrapturing Gaze comes out as a nice pick, but I find it most useful against other MCs, which the Kipper is not the best at killing off (Fiends on the other hand...). Powerfists won't do much anyway thank to their recent nerfing. Daemonic Gaze is a weak shooting attack better put elsewhere, and it keeps you from Pavaning. Instruments are cheap, but you really shouldn't be tying anyway so use it for points filler. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Malachi Posted January 30, 2009 Author Share Posted January 30, 2009 Ok, anyone got any other tactics for the keeper? As it stands we have the simple run and smash tactic, and ==Me=='s musk-pavane tactic, really I'd like to give more to our readers though. Edit- This is pretty much what the keepers section looks like at the moment, but it is in no way set in stone. Keeper of Secrets:Greater daemon of Slaanesh, terror of many a battlefield, but why should you take one? Well, let’s see. As a monstrous creature this guy packs a mean punch in close combat, but so does a lot of the daemon army, so what makes it special? Initiative ten is nice, very nice in fact, and combined with aura of aquiescence means you always go first, but that alone isn’t worth 200+ points. Fortunately, the keeper has other things going for it, though they do require you to buy upgrades. The first upgrade worth looking at is soporific musk, hit and run on a greater daemon? Yes please! One of the main things this does is allow you to avoid protracted combats, and escape from units that have a high number of high strength attacks. When combined with pavane of Slaanesh it just gets better. Another upgrade to look at is transfixing gaze, not always helpful, but against walkers and power fist unit leaders it can be pretty helpful, any way to reduce the amount of high strength attacks is usually worth it. Unholy might is often useful in that it helps with tank busting, and hurting toughness 5 units, not always essential though. The other upgrades are pretty useless to be honest. don’t go overboard on upgrades though, that I can’t stress enough, the keeper starts relatively cheap, try and keep it that way. Tactics: Aside from the normal run up and smash that all monstrous creatures use, our very own ==Me== has provided us with this tactic. “I use ==My== Keeper with Musk and Pavane. When it drops, Pavane or run as needed. The Keeper will get stuck in, kill 4-5 MEQs on the charge, effectively crippling a squad while taking <.5 wounds. Then, in your turn, use Musk to H&R away, giving you effectively an extra 2D6" of movement. This can be used to get closer to enemies down the line, catch up with vehicles and give it a better position. This gives the Keeper a 30" threat range, a full 12" more than a bloodthirster, though it requires him to be in combat beforehand. Pavane you have as insurance, either using it to draw enemy units closer to your lines or bunch up for templates. All this for the base cost of a bloodthirster is none too shabby.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
==Me== Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 We don't have to write a book for each unit entry. I'd say that's a a good framework, we can certainly flesh things out as needed. It's worth noting the downsides to a Keeper too. With only a 4+ invulnerable it can be gunned down by high RoF medium S weapons like Deffguns, Autocannons, and Heavy Bolters, and it is not all that great against similar MCs or heavier vehiclers. It also has to be in combat for its super movement burst to work, and getting there can be a problem. If you want a GD, why pick the Keeper? It's cheap relative to other GDs, has some potentially nasty surprises (the super speed, I10+grenades, enrapturing gaze), and murders heavier infantry other units with similar speed have trouble with. And maybe it's just ==Me==, but that model is nice :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djkest Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 Against WS 3 your opponent will need 5+ to HIT your keeper. This makes it very nasty against anything that is big and beefy but low on WS... only units I can think of off the top of my head would be Soul Grinders and Defilers... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted January 31, 2009 Share Posted January 31, 2009 I mentioned Skarbrand for two reasons: first because yes, he is very similar to a Keeper, and second is for synergizing. But if we're keeping that kinda stuff out for now, my bad :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyescrossed Posted January 31, 2009 Share Posted January 31, 2009 I wonder why GW didn't make a SC KoS. Maybe they couldn't think of any ideas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djkest Posted January 31, 2009 Share Posted January 31, 2009 Next up- the Bloodthirster. This is the dude. WS 10, STR 7, wings, and a bad attitude. Comes with furious charge as well. The real benefit to this guy is melee combat. Like the Keeper of Secrets but less subtlety. Even better at popping vehicles and chopping lesser MCs into little bits. Wings give him a 12" move and 6" assault, which is very handy. WS 10 means that mere mortals with a WS of 4 or less will need 5+ to even hit him. That includes veteran sergeants with power fists. Unholy might- while expensive, this makes him great, auto glances most vehicles, instant kills most characters, wounds most everything else on 2+... or less. For the seasoned player, this is almost a mandatory upgrade. Blessing of the Blood God- Lets see, 2+ invuln on all psychic attacks and powers? For 5 points? Um... yeah. Suck it grey knights. Faster than a Keeper, flying over terrain without problems, and hitting harder on the charge, this guy is ready to rock your world. The only downside to the big BT is- he can be killed by focused shooting, and his Initiative is not that great (5), especially if he get's charged. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raptor1313 Posted January 31, 2009 Share Posted January 31, 2009 For the KOS, I pretty much agree. It's not a really complex unit; Bring Unholy Might. Pavane to taste; but deifinitely Soporfic Musk. Bloodthirster: -Only-decent I; goes simultaneously with nasties like Harlies and Genestealers -EXPENSIVE. At 270 for anti-mind-war blessing and S8 base, he costs. -No Grenades -Only average durability for an MC; four T6 wounds over a 3+ armor save. Dies to massed shooting (Lootas, anyone?) Armor Save isn't much vs. a lot of anti-MC weapons like plasma and melta. Pros: -Speed. 19-24' assault from initial placement, assuming a run on round one -Strength: Kills crap in melee. Kills it well. (Doesn't doa lot else...) -By far our best anti-armor option. -WS10 is an amazing defense vs. melee; average folks with WS4 need a 5+ to hit. (IE: Orks? Bugger it.) Problem is with a melee wrecking ball is that he comes in, smashes a unit, breaks it, sweeps it, and is then open to counter-fire. I like Mr. Thirster, though my gut is that he's expensive and fast. Mostly it's that for all his cost, his durability is only average for an MC...Moreover, I'd ave him busting it towards armor, then dealing with enemy units. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Malachi Posted January 31, 2009 Author Share Posted January 31, 2009 Hang on guys, we aren't done with the keeper yet! As said, I forgot to add in the downsides and its section needs to be smaller, I'll work on it and post an update in a bit. This is gonna take a long time anyway so we may as well take our time and get it right the first time round. Oh, and ==Me==, could you post a shorter version of your musk-pavane tactic, it's a little long as it stands. On a side note, we missed a rather important bit... a basic review of the army as a whole. Who wants to write up a section on daemons as a whole and how their special rules (eternal warrior, deepstrike and fearless) affect the army, and a little paragraph explaining why daemons are so unique in 40k? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
==Me== Posted January 31, 2009 Share Posted January 31, 2009 Righto, I'll get on that and see if I can't have something down by tonight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Malachi Posted January 31, 2009 Author Share Posted January 31, 2009 Cool, thanks. Right, I've tried to shorten it, but unfortunately, after I added in the bad sides it ended up longer, so unless you guys can think of some way to shorten it we might just have to leave it long. Here it is: Keeper of Secrets:As a monstrous creature this guy packs a mean punch in close combat, but so does a lot of the daemon army, so what makes it special? Initiative ten is nice, very nice in fact, and combined with aura of aquiescence means you always go first, but that alone isn’t worth 200+ points. Fortunately, the keeper has other things going for it, though they do require you to buy upgrades. The first upgrade worth looking at is soporific musk, hit and run on a greater daemon? Yes please! One of the main things this does is allow you to avoid protracted combats, and escape from units that have a large number of high strength attacks. Another upgrade to look at is transfixing gaze, not always helpful, but against walkers and powerfist unit leaders it can be pretty good, any way to reduce the amount of high strength attacks is usually worth it. Unholy might is often useful in that it helps with tank busting, and hurting toughness 5 units, not always essential though. The other upgrades are pretty useless to be honest. However, there are a few downsides to the keeper, with only a 4+ invulnerable save, massed fire will take you down, and since it’s such a large model it’s very hard to get a cover save. It’s also not as good as many comparable monstrous creatures from other armies in a one to one fight. Tactics: Aside from the normal run up and smash that all monstrous creatures use, our very own ==Me== has provided us with this tactic. “I use ==My== Keeper with Musk and Pavane. When it drops, Pavane or run as needed. The Keeper will get stuck in, kill 4-5 MEQs on the charge, effectively crippling a squad while taking <.5 wounds. Then, in your turn, use Musk to hit and run away, giving you effectively an extra 2D6" of movement. This can be used to get closer to enemies down the line, catch up with vehicles and give it a better position. This gives the Keeper a 30" threat range, a full 12" more than a bloodthirster, though it requires him to be in combat beforehand. Pavane you have as insurance, either using it to draw enemy units closer to your lines or bunch up for templates. All this for the base cost of a bloodthirster is none too shabby.” It will of course be altered to include ==Me=='s shorter version, so that will take some of the length off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyescrossed Posted January 31, 2009 Share Posted January 31, 2009 A little nitpick, the BT with Might and Blessing is 275, not 270. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djkest Posted January 31, 2009 Share Posted January 31, 2009 I think the keeper would be best at attacking the toughest infantry models you can find (expect perhaps TH/SS termies) since it will hit them on 3s and wound on 2s, always going first. If you look at KOS vs other MCs or the Bloodthirster, he isn't too hot. Also, without unholy might he's not really fit for tank busting or MC hunting duties. I did some mathhammer and if KOS fights a (naked) Bloodthirster, he loses every time, even if given unholy might and transfixing gaze. Then again, being less points I suppose that makes sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted January 31, 2009 Share Posted January 31, 2009 Sorry I haven't been able to chime in yet but it looks like you guys have a great start. Thats a very nice trick ==Me== One thing that I would use to describe the KoS is that its more balanced than the Bloodthirster and more killy than the other two. I say this because its easily the 2nd killiest of all of the Greater Daemons after the Bloodthirster but with Pavane, it has some added utility, bringing units in close to other daemons or moving shooting units around so they can't fire. Now in all fairness, Heralds are usually a better way to take it, but KoS also brings some killy power in the same package. Having said all that, I think the main advantage of the KoS is it's the bargain version of the Bloodthirster. Run it naked and you're saving 75 points over a normally equipped 'Thirster. Thats enough for a Slaaneshi Herald/Unholy Might/Chariot sexy missile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Malachi Posted January 31, 2009 Author Share Posted January 31, 2009 Ok, I've edited it slightly to include comments from miniguns post (trying not to lengthen it much), though I'm not sure I agree that tough infantry are the right target, I'd argue more that light infantry are the best targets with all those attacks. Fortunately, the correct target hasn't been discussed yet so everyone feel free to voice your opinion on this matter. As for length, to save my poor brain the effort can we agree that I don't need to shorten it any more? (other than ==Me=='s shortened tactics section) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raptor1313 Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 I think that if we're talking length here, the length needs to be 'long enough.' -Did you cover what the unit can/can't do? -Did you cover any neat tricks? -Did you cover good uses for this guy? -Did you cover how NOT to use them? If so, then it's long enough. For the Keeper... Utility is the big watch-word. You can build him as a cheaper beater (Unholy Might, Soporific Musk) that gets to ping-pong around the board with Hit 'n' Run. You can add Pavane, and bring utility into the board. Lasso people, draw them out of cover and/or into assault range. Do some neat tricks like making sure Mr. Powerfist won't get into melee (assuming you roll high enough). It gives you a lot of control. I wouldn't rely on Pavane to make your day, but I'd bring it as a supplimentary trick. It's not your primary weapon, but it's that trusty extra that might one-up the other guy, and be a nasty surprise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Malachi Posted February 1, 2009 Author Share Posted February 1, 2009 Right, ideal target for the keeper, what is it? And how should he most definately not be used? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djkest Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 Seems like the ideal target would be terminators or space marines, or any unit that relies heavily on it's armor save to survive. T4 or less models, or if you have unholy might, T5 or less would all wound on 2s. Preferably not a unit that could survive her attack and wound her greatly in return. If you take transfixing gaze, would work well at countering the "crouching tac marine, hidden fist" squad that you see a lot. Also good at taking out dreadnaughts in close combat, esp. with transfixing gaze and unholy might. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Malachi Posted February 1, 2009 Author Share Posted February 1, 2009 I have to point out, termies seem like a very bad choice of target, it's a MC, why would you throw it against a bunch of powerfists? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
==Me== Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 Assault Termies are definitely a no go, it's best to throw Daemonettes or Bloodletters at them to force a bunch of saves. The Kipper will rip up Tac Squads, Crisis suits, and the like. The sort of things Daemonettes have trouble killing and Bloodletters have trouble getting to. Apologies on the delay with the overview, went out to dinner with the family last night, I hope I can get it posted up before kickoff tonight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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