[Daemon review] HQ.

[Vassakov]

The Kipper will rip up Tac Squads, Crisis suits, and the like. The sort of things Daemonettes have trouble killing and Bloodletters have trouble getting to.

 

I would disagree on the sort of things Bloodletters have trouble getting to point - I had a unit of 4 survivors shred a 10 strong DA Tac Squad. Crisis Suits are more of a pain though, I'll give you that.

[Captain Malachi]

Ok, so ideal target is anything with a good save but bad CC abilities? Seems a little bit specific, let's just say anything without lots of high strength attacks yeah? Which I've actuallu already mentioned, so that doesn't need editing to add.

 

So any good advice on ways to not use the keeper?

[Seahawk]

I was lucky in my recent game, but probably don't send it against land raiders and monoliths and expect it to smash. More often than not, it probably won't.

 

Don't send it alone against large CC oriented squads, as even it might have trouble...might.

 

 

 

and more do's, because I can:

 

Do send it against dreadnoughts. Easy as pie to kill, easy to reduce it to 0 attacks if nothing else. Keeps the Keeper safe too.

 

Do send it against regular vehicles if in assault range in one turn.

 

Do send it against other MC's, but not gribbly ones. Tyrants, Wraithlords, maybe Talos, and Avatars are good targets. Clawed Carnifexes are not.

[Captain Malachi]

Ok, I've updated it slightly, but after ==Me=='s update I think we should leave it and move on to the bloodthirster, so here it is as it stands.

Keeper of Secrets:

As a monstrous creature this guy packs a mean punch in close combat, not as much as the bloodthirster, but more than the great unclean one and the lord of change. But a lot of the daemon army is good in close combat, so what makes it special? Initiative ten is very nice and combined with aura of aquiescence means you always go first, but that alone isn’t worth 200+ points. Fortunately, the keeper has other things going for it, though they do require you to buy upgrades.

 

The first upgrade worth looking at is soporific musk, hit and run on a greater daemon? Yes please! One of the main things this does is allow you to avoid protracted combats, and escape from units that have a large number of high strength attacks. Another upgrade to look at is transfixing gaze, not always helpful, but against walkers and powerfist unit leaders it can be pretty good, any way to reduce the amount of high strength attacks is usually worth it. Unholy might is often useful in that it helps with tank busting, and hurting toughness 5 units, not always essential though. The other upgrades are pretty useless to be honest.

 

However, there are a few downsides to the keeper, with only a 4+ invulnerable save, massed fire will take you down, and since it’s such a large model it’s very hard to get a cover save. It’s also not as good as many comparable monstrous creatures from other armies in a one to one fight.

 

Tactics:

Aside from the normal run up and smash that all monstrous creatures use, our very own ==Me== has provided us with this tactic. “I use ==My== Keeper with Musk and Pavane. When it drops, Pavane or run as needed. The Keeper will get stuck in, kill 4-5 MEQs on the charge, effectively crippling a squad while taking <.5 wounds. Then, in your turn, use Musk to hit and run away, giving you effectively an extra 2D6" of movement. This can be used to get closer to enemies down the line, catch up with vehicles and give it a better position. This gives the Keeper a 30" threat range, a full 12" more than a bloodthirster, though it requires him to be in combat beforehand. Pavane you have as insurance, either using it to draw enemy units closer to your lines or bunch up for templates. All this for the base cost of a bloodthirster is none too shabby.” Aside from this, there are other simple tactics. Dreadnoughts and most tanks make good targets, land raiders and monoliths not so much, though if you have nothing else able to take them down go for it.

It's a little long, but at least it covers all the bases.

 

Anyway, begin discussion of everyones favourite red monster :ph34r:

[Raptor1313]

Looks good to me on the Keeper.

 

Big Red

 

Pros:

-WS10 (amazing defensive measure; WS4 and lower need 5's to hit you)

-Can get S8 (instant death for a lot of characters), and on charge auto-pens most vehicles

-3+ armor save

-WINGS. Can run down targets readily

-Can get a 2+ save vs. psychic powers; generally it means he's not going to get mind-warred.

-Pretty much base cost is 275 for Blesing of the Blood God and Unholy Might.

 

Cons:

-Bloody Expensive; 250 base (or 275 for the good stuff)

-Only average MC durability for the price

-No shooting (...a BS4 plasma pistol does NOT count.)

 

Do

-Use it to kill tanks, though it has trouble against ones that move 12"+

-Use it to kill off smaller, weakened units

-Abuse its ability to insta-kill T4 or lower multi-wound models

-Hunt large targets that you can maim on the charge (like Wraithlords, maybe...Dreadnoughts? Considering they're a PAIN for the rest of the army, yes. This is your dreadnought-killer)

 

Do not

-Throw it into the largest killy units without backup. (IE: always remember the most you'll kill on the charge is 6. You'll average four wounds, though, against pretty much everything outside of Wraithlords, C'tan, and T7 carnies.)

-By this is mean numbers of Genestealers, PK-heavy nob units (even if they're needing 5's to hit you, each PK hit has about a 50/50 shot of knocking off a wound)

-Leave yourself open more than you have to with regards to shooting. The enemy knows, because you're Khornate, that he needs to stop you dead before you get into assault. Despite your price and killy capabilities, you are still only AVERAGE in terms of your durability. Lootas, Scatter Lasers, even massed heavy bolters are not your friend.

-Also, doesn't have the attacks to kill a squad with a buried S8 weapon or two. While that weapon won't be accurate at 5+, it's still a threat to MCs.

 

Overall:

Bloodthirster is a 275pt unit best suited for killing tanks, multi-wound T4 or lower units, or other Monstrous Creatures. (Very possible, for example, to kill the average Carnifex on the charge...).

 

The best I can say is that he's point 'n' click.

 

The worst I can say is that while he's 275, he still dies to all the things that MCs fear. I'd say he's got competition with the Keeper of Secrets, so you need to look at what you him to do, and choose accordingly.

[minigun762]

you are still only AVERAGE in terms of your durability. Lootas, Scatter Lasers, even massed heavy bolters are not your friend.

 

 

I wouldn't say they are average in durability, infact they're probably above average. A 3+ Armor Save, 4+ Inv save and 2+ Inv against psychic powers is fairly durable I'd say.

The 3+ Armor save helps to combat the Loota/Scatter Laser spamming you might see, allowing for a solid 3+ save.

 

 

As for everything else, I think its spot on.

We talked about it before but while I think Unholy Might is an AWESOME power but its not mandatory, just a very smart buy.

Running him with some Fleshhounds seems like a good plan. 10 naked Flesh Hounds would provide the bulk of attacks needed against Orks or Gaunts and the 'Thirster provides the real hit.

[Captain Malachi]

Pretty much with you on it all Raptor, though as Minigun said, hardly average, at least above average, especially with eternal warrior in the mix. However, Minigun, might is the single most important buy on the 'thirster, more so than blessing. Instagibbing marine characters and helping with tank, and therefore dread killing is essential, seeing as how that's what the 'thirster does best. I agree that he really needs a supporting unit though, or a lot of finesse, being in combat with a large ork mob turn after turn is not fun, especially when his deff dreads run around killing off your bloodletters.....

[minigun762]

Pretty much with you on it all Raptor, though as Minigun said, hardly average, at least above average, especially with eternal warrior in the mix. However, Minigun, might is the single most important buy on the 'thirster, more so than blessing. Instagibbing marine characters and helping with tank, and therefore dread killing is essential, seeing as how that's what the 'thirster does best. I agree that he really needs a supporting unit though, or a lot of finesse, being in combat with a large ork mob turn after turn is not fun, especially when his deff dreads run around killing off your bloodletters.....

 

Yeah I don't think I'd ever run a 'Thirster without Might, I just have a hard time saying that its mandatory.

Mostly because I'm cheap ass when it comes to upgrades haha.

[Captain Malachi]

Yeah, it is a little expensive, but the 'thirster already costs 250, an extra 20's no big loss :lol: Far as I'm concerned, 'thirster costs 275 base. I'll write up an entry and post it up tomorrow, once I've got ==Me=='s section for the keeper.

[minigun762]

Yeah, it is a little expensive, but the 'thirster already costs 250, an extra 20's no big loss :D Far as I'm concerned, 'thirster costs 275 base. I'll write up an entry and post it up tomorrow, once I've got ==Me=='s section for the keeper.

 

So can we move onto the Great Unclean One or do we have more to say with the 'Thirster?

[Captain Malachi]

I think it's only fair to give everyone else a chance to voice their opinions, besides, I'd like to write it up before we move on, you may all be able to move so fast but I have a little more to do :D Although now I think about it, we really should have done the GUO first, if we're following the codex....not that it really matters or anything.

[Captain Malachi]

Sorry for double post, but I didn't want people to miss it.

 

Bloodthirster:

Like the keeper, this guy is your simple close combat monster, in no way subtle, he gets the job done and doesn’t even bother sticking around to ask questions. Weapon skill 10 puts him in a class shared by only one other unit in the game, the eldar avatar, unfortunately for the eldar, in a one to one fight the bloodthirster will beat the avatar hands down. His wings enable him to get in to combat quick, give him a longer threat range and basically make him better at what he does best, combined with a 3+ save standard and toughness 6, he should be getting in to combat safely. Now let’s take a look at the upgrades available.

 

First up, we have death strike, now you may be thinking “great, I can make my bloodthirster a threat at range”, well, you’d be wrong. A single strength 7 shot at BS4 is not going to make him a threat, best bet is to leave this one at home. Next we have blessing of the blood god, a 2+ save against psychic powers for 5 points? Always take this, one of the most cost efficient options in the codex. Unholy might is another must have, base strength 8 means you instant kill marine characters, and have a better chance of tank and dreadnought busting, also don‘t forget that thanks to furious charge it means you auto penetrate most vehicles on the charge. Instrument is a points filler, you really shouldn’t be tying with your bloodthirster, so I’d leave one.

 

However, as with all units, there are some downsides, first off his a very high cost, 250 base, though most players count his cost as 275 for might and blessing. With no real shooting to speak of, as death strike doesn’t count, he’s not much of a threat if your enemy can avoid close combat, and since he’s fearless he’s very vulnerable to tar pitting.

 

Tactics:

As a greater daemon of the least subtle god in existence, it’s pretty obvious how to use this guy, run up and kill. However, there’s a little more to it than that. Really, you should be using the bloodthirster to take out what the rest of your army has the most trouble with, namely walkers and tanks, as well as toughness 4 characters.

 

Thoughts? I'd like a more in depth tactic like we have for the keeper, but I'm aware that the bloodthirster is far from subtle enough for such things.

 

Total side note- Anyone else noticed we haven't had a single thread closed in the liber malificorum? Makes me proud :P

 

Edit- So who's gonna take care of the army overview? We can't have a review without an opening section for the army as a whole, or am I writing that as well? :( (if you guys want me to write I will by the way)

[Raptor1313]

I'd be happy trying to throw down an intro.

 

The reason I say it's average durability (T6, 3+ save) is about like this. The 2+ save vs. psychic stuff happens pretty much only for Mind war and the like. You shouldn't even worry about Force Weapons.

 

I'll admit that immunity to instant death is nice, but there are only a few things that T6 worries about Instant Death from...force weapons (long odds) and Wraithcannon come to mind.

 

Vs. Shooting?

Lootas.

 

Lootas (and autocannons) fire S7 shots. Wound on 3+. Get through your save on 3+.

So, each loota hit averages about 0.22 wounds, which means you need 18 loota hits (on average) to kill your Bloodletter.

 

On a good turn, Lootas can one-round your 'letter as easy as they'd one-round a carnifex. On a bad round, they do nothing. Carnie, though, is likely about 115 points, maybe 150 for a heavy support choice.

 

Scatter Lasers need 25 hits to do it, which is still not that hard for Eldar to crank out, but they might not be able to bring it all to bear at once.

 

My main point is that against a LOT of things, they're no more durable than other MCs. They are a bit more resilient vs. plasma, melta, and powerfists, though. But against massed fire, that 3+ only goes so far.

[minigun762]

Thoughts? I'd like a more in depth tactic like we have for the keeper, but I'm aware that the bloodthirster is far from subtle enough for such things.

 

Well its only really used in 1 way, maximum killing power.

The 2 big things to comment on will be target priority (Kill that Dreadnought over there first, not the Tactical squad) and support for horde units so you can't be bogged down with sheer numbers (30 Guants would take awhile to chew through even with Fearless saves working for you)

 

If there is anything else you need help with, let me know. I usually have slightly more time during the work week (oddly enough)

[Raptor1313]

Second Minigun.

 

The Bloodthirster (...and indeed pretty much anything Khorne) really isn't more complex in use than 'Go That Way, Kill That'. Target priority is really the only major thing you need to account for with Khorne, and what the unit can't harm.

 

About the only thing the Thirster has issues with is running down Fast vehicles and hitting them. 6+ to hit makes Bloodthirster a Sad Panda if it's skimmer-hunting.

[djkest]

Don't forget furious charge- didn't see anyone mention it yet.

 

Remember at STR 8 you can instant-kill nobs or marines on bikes always... they are T4(5).

 

So strengths- against other MCs, this is the best you can get. WS 10 means you always hit on 3s, opponents will be hitting you on 4+, 5+ if they are WS 4 or lower (fist sergeants, nobs!). Also better (than the KoS) at shrugging off massed fire. On the charge with unholy might, only needs to roll a total of 6 on 2 dice to pen a land raider. (average roll is 7)

 

Bloodthirster. No tricks, no sneaky tactics, just face-smashing vehicle crushing character killing goodness.

[Raptor1313]

Yeah, no one has mentioned Furious Charge on the 'thirster.

 

At least with wings, he'll get it reliably, with the whole 18" charge range in a turn. However, he's only S8 ON the charge. If he doesn't totally route the enemy that one time, you'll still want instant-death capability (...because believe me, if you go into a nasty mob of something like Nobs and survive round one, you want to make SURE they're dead in round two) and it helps with MCs and Tanks and the like. Note with a unit of Nobs, though, a Waagh! banner puts them up to WS5, and therefore hitting on 4+.

 

That's pretty much what Unholy Might is all about.

 

The Bloodthirster is basically a brick with wings that you throw at the other guy's army. It can kill the stuff that pretty much the rest of your army cries about (Dreadnoughts, other walkers, tanks, Land Raiders...) so if those are present, get them first. Then, use the wings to put it where it needs to be for the four wounds it'll inflict a turn.

[Captain Malachi]

Fortunately I mentioned furious charge in the first draft :P Though admittedly it was only in passing in reference to unholy might. Thanks for taking over the intro Raptor, throw it up whenever you're ready, no rush though :D On the durability issue though, I don't think it really needs to be looked in to in so much depth for a review, besides, how many armies can put out that many S7+ shots? Not many to be honest, and the ones that can pay for it.

 

Anyway, I say we give everyone one extra day to say anything they want, I'm sure ==Me== has something to say on the matter, and after that I'll post up a final copy, we can all agree it's fine and move on to the big bloated pus ball.

[==Me==]

I'm trying to figure out what sort of theme we want for the review, will it be pure game-wise or a little fluffy additions. I was thinking of doing it from the POV of some Inquisitor translating a heretical text but if you guys want to stick with just the info I can work that too. Apologies for the delays once again.

 

As for the BT, I think you guys have pretty much nailed it. He's a brick to throw at your opponent's army, a big mean death machine. Unholy Might for the S8 and Blessing for its cost-effectiveness is all you need. Drop him in and proceed to smash things.

[Captain Malachi]

I figure we'll do fluff and modelling separately at the end, just rules and tactics for now.

[Raptor1313]

I think a format of gamer-wise with some Inquisitorial notes interspersed could be interesting.

 

For the introduction...here goes. I'm mentioning special rules and giving a brief overview of the gods in game and fluff terms. Should be enough to get people pointed to where they want to go.

 

The Daemon Army, an Introduction

This guide is a group effort from the daemon fans of the Bolter 'n' Chainsword. It's based on experience and conjecture, and aims to give the average person interested in the Daemon Codex a place to start learning about the wonder that is the Daemon Codex.

 

Daemonic Special Rules

The Daemonic army benefits from several special rules that set it apart from other forces.

 

Daemonic Assault

This is the hallmark special rule of the daemonic codex. Prior to deployment, you split your force into two lots, roughly equal in terms of the number of units in each. You designate one of these as your 'chosen' half, and on a d6 roll of 3+, you get that as your first wave.

 

Once you've got your half of the army, you deep-strike in on your first turn. Thus, it's often to our advantage to go second, as we deprive the enemy of a turn of shooting. It also allows us the second move towards objective-grabbing. The remainder of our army deep-strikes in per the reserve rules.

 

We deploy this way, regardless of scenarios like Dawn of War. This means our army plays incredibly reactive. It is to our interest to focus our force on part of the enemy, rather than try to fight their entire army with a portion of ours.

 

By now, though, you've noticed the randomness inherent in the Daemonic codex. This is simply how it works for us; we are random and sometimes unreliable like that. One way to combat the randomness in our deployment is to build as much redundancy into the army as you can by taking multiples of units that you want to see. Relying on a Soul Grinder or unit of Fiends to show up after your initial wave? Take several.

 

Also of note is that our troops and Heralds can take Icons. Icons cost 25 points a pop, but you may deep-strike without scatter within 6" of them. Some people swear by them, some do not.

 

Eternal Warriors

The entire army is immune to instant death. Considering that a fair number of our units are multi-wound, this is rather nice.

 

Invulnerable

All our units (save for our one vehicle) have invulnerable saves. Some units also have armor saves or can purchase them, as noted in their entries. The bulk of our units, though, have a 5+ invulnerable save, which means that they need cover. On the bright side, per the rules we can take invulnerable saves against dangerous terrain tests.

 

The Chaos Gods

There are four major Chaos Gods in the Warhammer 40k universe. They are embodiments of for primal forces: experience, death, change, and decay. None of them particularly like each other in principle, but there is fluff justification for both pure-god armies, and mixed armies. Mixed armies are justified in the sense that the individual minions of each god likely have their own agendas, and might find it convenient to work together from time to time.

 

In terms of rules, heralds (an HQ choice) may not join a unit of daemons of a different god. Khornate heralds just won't join anything other than a unit of Khornate Daemons, for example.

 

Khorne

Khorne is the god of bloody war-like death, in terms of separating someone's head from their shoulders. Khorne is also known as the blood god, hence the chant 'Blood for the Blood God! Skulls for the Skull Throne!' Khorne's minions exist primarly for spilling the blood of the enemy in glorious battle.

 

In terms of fluff, Khorne's opposite is Slaanesh. Khorne also hates Tzeentch, as Tzeentch isn't keen on straight-up battles and hand-to-hand combat. Khorne has no particular problem with Nurgle beyond the fact that Nurgle is not Khorne.

 

In game terms, Khorne's units are not particularly fast, but they excel at butchering infantry in close combat. They have to go it on foot, but will harm things when they get there. Most Khorne units ignore armor saves, and some Khorne units actually have 3+ armor saves of their own. Most Khorne units have an invlunerable save of 5+, aside from their Greater Daemon, whose is at 4+. Khornate units also boast higher-than-average weapon skill.

 

Slaanesh

Slaanesh is the hermaphroditic deity of excess, experience, and pleasure. Slaaneshi daemons will still kill in combat, but they are known for making an art of it and taking their time. This is typically very painful for those on the recieving end. Slaanesh is all about the self-indlugence. Slaanesh actually came about due to an event that the Eldar will, as a rule, refuse to discuss with anyone.

 

In terms of fluff, Khorne is Slaanesh's opposite. Slaanesh has no particular problem with Nurgle and Tzeentch aside from the fact they are not Slaaneshi.

 

On the tabletop, Slaaneshi daemons are among the fastest units in the codex. All have Fleet of Foot minimum, and some are faster still. Most of them have rending as well as high initiative values and high base attacks, but only average weapon skill. Slaaneshi daemons are also the most fragile of the codex, as they all have a 5+ invulnerable save. Their toughness is also on the lower end.

 

Tzeentch

Tzeentch is the god of change and sorcery. Tzeentch plots for the sake of plotting, and loves nothing more than a convoluted plan that confuses the enemy.

 

In terms of fluff, Tzeentch is the opposite of Nurgle. Khorne also has a hatred for Tzeentch because Tzeentch does not particularly care to meet you on an open battlefield.

 

Tzeentch daemons are the primary source of ranged combat, and reliable ranged anti-tank, in the daemon codex. Tzeentch daemons have average levels of toughness, but the best invulnerable saves of the codex, as most of them take a 4+ invulnerable. Tzeentch daemons are shooty to the exclusion of close combat prowess. If Guardsmen or Fire Warriors were of a mind to assault, they could probably beat down most Tzeentch daemons in a fistfight.

 

Nurgle

Nurgle is the chaos god of entropy and decay. Nurgle loves pestilence and filth, and is apparently quite paternal as well. He's the closest Primeval to having a sense of humor, though it involves rotting flesh. Your rotting flesh, to be precise.

 

In fluff terms, Nurgle isn't fond of Tzeentch, because Tzeentch changes things while Nurgle rots them. Nurgle has no real angle on Slaanesh or Khorne.

 

On the tabletop, Nurgle's units stick out for being slow and durable. Most of them have the Slow and Purposeful special rule. Most of them have above-average toughness, and a 5+ invulnerable save to deal with before they get Feel No Pain. Nurgle units also tend to have poisoned weapons, low weapon skill, and low initiative.

 

EDIT: completed the edits on this section.

[Captain Malachi]

Pretty good Raptor, only thing I'd add is to mention feel no pain in Nurgles section, and I'm fairly sure Khorne is the god of war and anger more than death, otherwise nice job, now to save it in to word...........

 

On the topic of inquisitorial notes, if someone wants to write some up and tell me where they should be, go for it, but I'm a very factual guy and am not very good at writing up things like that. However, let's keep the rules the focus for now at least, this is supposed to be a guide after all.

[Raptor1313]

I'll tweak the Khorne section shortly to include that. Khorne, though, seems concerned chiefly with killing the other guy, where Slaanesh enjoys the torture. The guy just dies at the end. That seems to be the root of the conflict, but I'll leave the major philosophical discussion out of it.

 

Good catch on the FnP in nurgle; only Nurglings and DPs don't get them, but we'll cover these exceptions in their relevant sections.

 

I feel that a bit of a nod at fluff early on isn't out of line, as it really DOES give you a good baseline for what to expect out of the various god-troops.

[==Me==]

I like a good mix of fluff in with the gameplay stuff, but I don't see why we can't separate them. Raptor's got a good start there, I'll see if I can add anything to it and get back to y'all.

[minigun762]

Unless we're going to discuss it later on in a tactics section, I'd flesh out the point about Icons and when/where/how many to use.