[Daemon review] HQ.

[Raptor1313]

Good point on the Icons.

 

I think a discussion of them in-depth would probably work in the Troops section, or merit its own section.

 

My view on Icons:

I don't take them. The logistics of getting them into position and then using them is iffy, as far as I'm concerned. I'd rather accept my randomness and get on with buying more units, but I can see some use for them. I just don't think they're essential.

 

Icon Cons

The enemy can counter them

Unless you're taking a large unit, shooty armies can force you to take saves on icon-bearers, and with our saves, most anything other than a Plaguebearer isn't going to survive it.

 

Additionally, the Icon has a 6" radius where you can safely plant the incoming troops. Part of this can be covered by your own unit. The other part is that the enemy can plant a sacrificial unit where you want your guys to arrive. For example, I'm perfectly happy rolling up a heavy flamer-toting landspeeder on your icon squad and cooking some of them. If it's anything other than plaguebearers, I've dropped some of your troops. I've also robbed you of the place to deep-strike your unit.

 

Random Deep-strike arrival

If you want to have Icons in, you're going to do Icons in one of a few ways. First, you're going to take multiple Icons, as a given. One isn't reliable.

 

Then, you're going to determine how you want to split your forces. Let's say I've taken three troops choices. Each of them has an icon. So, do I put all three in one wave and use my troops to establish a foothold and harass the enemy? Or, do I spilt them up and have some in each wave?

 

Then, there's placement. Assuming you start with an icon-bearer in wave one, they have to scatter on impact. 1/3 chance they're where you placed them, more often than not they're about 7-8 inches away from where you wanted them to be.

 

Finally, there's the fact that your reserves are random as well. Will they come in when your icons are where you want them to be? If not, then are you going to gamble on a deep strike closer to position, or one you know is not going to land where you want to be? In this case, there's still a 33% chance of getting a 'hit' on the scatter dice, which is better than the 0% chance of getting where you want to be with an out-of-position icon.

 

Cost

Icons are also 25 a pop. They come on troops and Heralds. Assuming ~3 troops choices, that's 75 points on the icons. If you take four, 100. This assumes a larger game. In a smaller game with fewer units, you might very well want to skip the icons for more bodies, as 50-75 points is 3-4 more bodies easily.

 

Consider what you could get for the points you're spending on icons. Our units are pricey, and 75-100 points can get us something like another Herald, or a chunk of a Daemon Prince, or something else large and nasty. Or some Flamers or Bloodcrushers, for example.

 

Icon Pros

The only real pro Icons give you is that you may deep-strike on-target.

 

However, some things can seriously benefit from an on-target deep strike. Among these...

 

Flamers

Flamers of Tzeentch, if you have an icon close enough to infantry, are a fine way to annihilate people with Breath of Chaos. If you get them in the right place/time, then it can really make them an awesome single-shot weapon.

 

Soul Grinders

They're big. They take dangerous terrain tests that result in immobility when failed. They have no benefit to dropping into cover because of their sheer size. If you're running a Soul Grinder in wave 2, then Icons can be handy.

 

This goes for the naked melee Soul Grinder, and the shooty model. Shooty just wants to be within 24", and naked can deal with a slightly sub-optimal Deep Strike because they are Fleet.

 

Generally Fast Units

Some units have the speed to use a sub-optimal deep-strike position, especially if they can get cover. Flamers, if you don't want to alpha-strike them, are worth it. Similarly, Slaaneshi units can usually fit the bill here, as they're fleet and their fast attack and elite options have a 12" charge as well as fleet.

[minigun762]

My view on Icons:

I don't take them. The logistics of getting them into position and then using them is iffy, as far as I'm concerned. I'd rather accept my randomness and get on with buying more units, but I can see some use for them. I just don't think they're essential.

 

Interesting, my mind is still up in the air over their use but I am leaning in this direction as well. I'm sure they're nice and if it was 10-15 points I'd probably throw down a few, but at 25 points thats usually 3 extra Troops for every 2 Icons you take and I'd prefer more bodies.

 

Having said that, I think Horrors are one of the best units to put them in, they're a shooty unit so they can actually do something in the first wave (where you can't assault anyway) and a 4+ Inv save is moderately tough to kill (basically they're better Firewarriors).

As it is now, I see them mostly as point filler unless you have a good plan with them.

[Raptor1313]

One note about Horrors:

 

Everyone else is going to run and scatter anyway on deep strike.

 

Before you give into the urge to throw down a lot of dice in your run phase, look to see if the enemy has any blast or template weapons nearby.

 

If they do? Scatter instead. Otherwise I don't care how many horrors you have, you'll lose chunks of them to blast weapons.

[==Me==]

I'm going to agree re: icons. I find the points better spent on units.

 

As for a condensed Keeper article, here's ==My== part.

 

"Wanna see my ping pong ball trick?"

The Keeper has the potential to be the fastest Greater Daemon. Give it sopoforic musk and you're Keeper becomes a highly mobile killing machine. Hit & Run is 2D6" in any direction, and when combined with the Keeper's normal movement and fleet you get a assault range of up to 30", a full foot longer than the Bloodthirster's (maybe that's why Khorne's angry all the time :P). With such a huge threat range, nothing is safe from the Keeper's deadly caress. Use it to hop across the battlefield to catch enemy vehicles, drive deeper into enemy lines, and leave plenty of sloppy seconds for the rest of your army.

[minigun762]

and leave plenty of sloppy seconds for the rest of your army.

 

Only a Slaaneshi Daemon would think like that :P

[Captain Malachi]

Thanks ==Me==, I've edited that in. Now, before I post up a final version for the bloodthirsters part, I'd like to take a vote on something; who thinks we should put small fluff sections in each units section? I've been thinking about it, and while the rules should be the focus, a whole separate section for fluff might be a bit much, on the flip side, adding fluff to each units section means every choice will have a long section indeed.

 

Edit- Can we leave icons for now? I agree they probably need their own section, perhaps after elite but before troops. I just don't want to go off topic too much.

[minigun762]

Thanks ==Me==, I've edited that in. Now, before I post up a final version for the bloodthirsters part, I'd like to take a vote on something; who thinks we should put small fluff sections in each units section? I've been thinking about it, and while the rules should be the focus, a whole separate section for fluff might be a bit much, on the flip side, adding fluff to each units section means every choice will have a long section indeed.

 

Edit- Can we leave icons for now? I agree they probably need their own section, perhaps after elite but before troops. I just don't want to go off topic too much.

 

As for Icons, why not talk about them in the armory section. We're going to have to talk about which powers are worthwhile anyway, so lets do it there.

 

For the bit of fluff, I think it would add too much bulk to each entry and we don't want to try and rewrite the codex.

Maybe bulk up the individual god section with a little bit more, but anything more is outside the scope of this article (which is geared for beginner-intermediate players starting Daemons mostly)

[Captain Malachi]

I mostly agree with you Minigun, but I'll let everyone else have a say, I'm mostly just commenting to say Raptor, you forgot to mention the effects of fearless in your overview, it's an army wide rule, so if you want to write up a little thing for it I'll edit it in.

[Lord Eltor]

Icons and really slow Demons:

 

when you play Nurgle demons mainly I think you have 2 pros with Icons:

 

1. They cant be taken out when sitting in a unit of 14 Plaguebearer

2. A GUO shocking 7 inches into the wrong direction will not be able to really take part for one turn and just soak fire!

[Raptor1313]

I do think we should cover Icons in an armory section. (Don't know WHY an 'armory' section didn't occur to me...)

 

As Malachi said, I also forgot 'fearless'.

 

Here goes...

 

Fearless

All daemon units are also fearless. We're not the only army that can field a totally fearless army, but it's worth mentioning.

 

On the bright side, we never break from gunfire, and there are a variety of morale-related problems we can ignore that others suffer from. Everyone boasts leadership 10 for when that's actually relevant, too.

 

The downside? We never retreat from close combat. While most of our units will usually win close combat, it's a problem sometimes. The biggest issue is against dreadnoughts. This codex has a particular problem dealing with high AV walkers, as most units simply cannot scratch them. There's nothing quite like watching your 40-point Bloodcrushers throw S5 hits at an AV12 or 13 walker. It also means that when we lose said close combats, and sometimes we do, we face No Retreat! saves, and are particularly vulnerable to them as they are usually taken at a 5+.

 

Fearless makes it very important to be able to deal with Walkers reliably, and ensure that you don't lose melee combat in general.

[Captain Malachi]

Thanks Raptor, I've edited that in.

 

The bloodthirster's section:

Bloodthirster:

Like the keeper, this guy is your simple close combat monster, in no way subtle, he gets the job done and doesn’t even bother sticking around to ask questions. Weapon skill 10 puts him in a class shared by only one other unit in the game, the eldar avatar, unfortunately for the eldar, in a one to one fight the bloodthirster will beat the avatar hands down. His wings enable him to get in to combat quick, give him a longer threat range and basically make him better at what he does best, combined with a 3+ save standard and toughness 6, he should be getting in to combat safely. Now let’s take a look at the upgrades available.

 

First up, we have death strike, now you may be thinking “great, I can make my bloodthirster a threat at range”, well, you’d be wrong. A single strength 7 shot at BS4 is not going to make him a threat, best bet is to leave this one at home. Next we have blessing of the blood god, a 2+ save against psychic powers for 5 points? Always take this, one of the most cost efficient options in the codex. Unholy might is another must have, base strength 8 means you instant kill marine characters, and have a better chance of tank and dreadnought busting, also don‘t forget that thanks to furious charge it means you auto penetrate most vehicles on the charge. Instrument is a points filler, you really shouldn’t be tying with your bloodthirster, so I’d leave it.

 

However, as with all units, there are some downsides, first off his a very high cost, 250 base, though most players count his cost as 275 for might and blessing. With no real shooting to speak of, as death strike doesn’t count, he’s not much of a threat if your enemy can avoid close combat, and since he’s fearless he’s very vulnerable to tar pitting.

 

Tactics:

As a greater daemon of the least subtle god in existence, it’s pretty obvious how to use this guy, run up and kill. However, there’s a little more to it than that. Really, you should be using the bloodthirster to take out what the rest of your army has the most trouble with, namely walkers and tanks, as well as toughness 4 characters and other monstrous creatures. There is one thing that the bloodthirster is bad at though; getting fast vehicles. Not only does the old boy often have trouble getting to them (though with wings he will get there eventually), but when he get’s there he’s hitting on 6’s, with 6 attacks on the charge, you’ll only average one hit.

 

Everything seems fine to me but you guys might think differently.

 

For further discussion of icons, please go here.

[Raptor1313]

Looks good to me, Malachi. Once w're done, I'd be fine doing an overall grammar-check, etc. ::waves an English degree around.:: Grad school being what it is, though, I'd rather not commit to doing it now and flub up, since it's hitting test time.

 

And yeah...Mr. Fearless Bloodthirster actually has a hell of a time dealing with Nurglings. He might kill a base a turn. That's exactly what you want to avoid with him, and why he needs backup.

 

EDIT: That's ultimately kind of why I'm not such a BT fan. He's nasty, but there are ways to rob him of the best targets, and then just shoot him 'til he drops.

[Captain Malachi]

Cool, I sucked at english, so a grammer check would be good (I'm guessing I need it or you wouldn't bring it up ), well, better start on the GUO. Here's what I think of him.

 

He's a bullet magnet, he'e there so that the rest of your army goes up unopposed, he can be used to kill MCs, but most players will simply stay out of combat. He has some nice points, but ultimately I'd avoid him in favour of a GD that is likely to get in combat and actually do some damage. Though, he makes an excellent "cheap man's greater daemon".

[Iron_Chaos_Brute]

Cheap, slow, and tough. Works well as a complement to Epi in Mononurgle. Can be used ok at base cost, cloud of flies makes him tougher. You'll get 5 or 6 inch movement, as an MC he has move through cover. All those re-rollable 2+s to wound are nice, too. IMO, 2nd worst of the Greaters.

[==Me==]

The GUO is solid gold considering his cost. For about 100 points less than your average GD you get an extremely resilient killing machine. He's slower than the rest, but rolling 3d6 for S&P usually means you'll keep going at a decent clip. Noxious Touch will have him ripping apart enemy MCs with little effort.

 

Cloud of Flies is a no brainer buy, less attacks for the enemy and zero effect from terrain. I like Breath of Chaos as a throwback to the old Stream of Bile and because Breath is a wonderfully devastating attack. Aura of Decay is failsauce, Unholy Might is a big meh when he has touch and S6, and the instrument is always points filler.

 

I would rate him as 3rd only because the Kipper and BT are so freakin' good, but for the points you really can't do much better.

[Raptor1313]

I'm with you guys, for the most part.

 

He's cheap. He's durable. If you can't ignore FNP, it takes 20 wounds to KO him. Not easy to crank out, but he's as vulnerable to the rest of them to plasma, melta, and powerfists. Take Cloud of Flies, and be done with his gear.

 

Too slow to use Breath of Chaos.

Unholy Might seems odd with Noxious Touch, since you're re-rolling wounds on most MCs.

 

In a 1500+ pt game, him and a half-dozen or so plaguebearers on an objective mean it's more or less yours; then go and throw the rest of your army at the other guy.

 

Third place because the Keeper and Bloodthirster have the speed to get into combat, and more lethality. The GUO is cheap, which is his real strength. He's not AS slow as Slow 'n' Purposeful might seem, since he gets Move Through Cover by virtue of being a monstrous creature. He'll still need to run, though.

 

Third also because the Lord of Change is epic, epic fail.

[Captain Malachi]

Am I the only one who actually likes the lord of change?

[minigun762]

Am I the only one who actually likes the lord of change?

 

Yes :lol:

 

For the GUO, I think the key to using him well is to support him with fast moving units or bring units into his reach.

Rushing forward with fleshhounds, Fiends etc to hold a unit in place then pouncing on them with the GUO and using his bulk to finish the job (pun intended). Same idea as with Gaunts and Melee Carnifex.

 

Another version is to use models with Pavane to bring them towards the big guy so he can assault.

 

I think he's just too slow to be a main assaulter without assistance. The only other thing I can think of is to run him down the middle towards something important and basically force the opponent to engage him. With Cloud of Flies, he'll be cheaper than many squads you'll send against him to tie him up and be immune to most horde attacks.

 

I'd only ever use Cloud of Flies, Breath of Chaos on a walking model is too expensive and too unreliable. The rest of them aren't needed at all.

[Raptor1313]

Am I the only one who actually likes the lord of change?

 

Indeed. I used to, 'til I tried him once...

 

Since we've all pretty much summed up the GUO, I'm for moving on to Big Bird. I'm curious to see what Malachi likes in the guy.

 

Here's my take.

 

The Lord of Change

He's big, flying, and shooty, with passable melee capability. He's 250 base, and for that you get an excellent 3+ invulnerable save, Daemonic Gaze, and Bolt of Tzeentch. He can attack tanks in melee with four (on the charge) S6+2d6 attacks after a Bolt.

 

However, for a shooty-oriented Greater Daemon, he's not actually that shooty. For 250 points, you get three S5, AP3 shots to 18", and one S8, AP1 shot out to 24". Consider that you can get the same speed and slightly better mobility out of a Tzeentch Herald (takes a Chariot, Master of Sorcery, and Bolt) for about 100 points, and two of those in place of the Big Bird...his shooty potential doesn't look so good any more. He's harder to drag down with four T6, 3++ wounds, but they're twice as shooty as he is and leave you with 50 points to spare.

 

So, let's make the Lord of Change shootier. If we want to really kill enemy infantry, we'll need to buy Breath of Chaos and Master of Sorcery. Right now, we're at 290 and to get the most bang out of our buck, we have to close to template range. We have the speed to do so, but if we get locked in melee (which hordes can readily do, since we have all of 3 WS5 attacks...) we're not shooting.

 

If we want to get more efficiency out of the lord of change, we'd need to drop another 30-40 points on We Are Legion to multi-target. This means that if we've bought Master of Sorcery and Breath of Chaos (and cost 330) we can fly into 6" of an infantry unit, hit them with Gaze and Breath, and launch a bolt of Change at a vehicle. Then we can assault whatever we want in range, if we want to assault.

 

If you want to spend that much on a Lord of Change, Fateweaver's 333, has all the shooty gifts, and a neat ability. Check out his entry. If you want shooting on a mobile platform, take a Herald of Tzeentch on a Jetbike with an extra gun for 100.

 

The Lord of Change is honestly very expensive for what he can do (and can be upgraded to do), and has to get up close to get the most out of his monstrous creature status. But, the Lord of Change doesn't WANT to be in melee, as his statline's pretty much that of a Space Marine Commander with Relic Blade, Power Armor, and Storm Shield.

 

EDIT: added point totals to the various build-outs.

He competes with shootier heralds for the HQ spot. He's a fail.

[==Me==]

I love the Lord of Change fluffwise and modelwise, but for his points he's trash compared to the other GDs. Not only is he stupidly expensive, but for the "shooty" GD he isn't very shooty. When you get the good gifts you may as well just take Fateweaver and call it a day.

 

It's a shame, I really love the model and background, but the LoC will never see the light of day in a competitive list.

[minigun762]

If you want to spend that much on a Lord of Change, Fateweaver's 333, has all the shooty gifts, and a neat ability. Check out his entry. If you want shooting on a mobile platform, take a Herald of Tzeentch on a Jetbike with an extra gun for 100.

 

This is my major point. When is it better to take a Lord of Change than 2 Chariot Heralds with Bolt, Master and Legion? 2 Heralds are cheaper with more Wounds and can shoot at more targets.

 

If I had to use the Lord of Change, it would be because of its 3+ Inv save. Throw him at tanks (but not Land Raiders) or MEQ squads and he'll do a good job and be resistant to being knocked out by that hidden Power Fist.

 

The main issue is, Daemon in general are already good at killing non-AV14 tanks and MEQs so he lacks that special niche.

[Raptor1313]

Edited in points values and stuff into the LoC's bit.

 

I'm waiting to see what Mal says. He likes it, he's got to have a reason for it, and it's possible I've missed it.

 

If GW made the thing cheaper (like, 200-220ish base) I might consider it, but the daemon codex in general just isn't that shooty. Or if he had a soul-grinder like large blast attack.

[==Me==]

He needs a cost cut and Warpfire at the very least. That way he can actually put out some dakka. A small blast would be fine.

[Captain Malachi]

Hang up guys, we haven't finished the GUO yet, not until we've agreed on the section I write up for him......which I'm gonna go start on now.

[Captain Malachi]

Well, I've written up a GUO section, any thoughts?

 

Great Unclean One:

AKA, Nurgles big bruiser, this guy just never dies! With an extra wound over the other greater daemons and feel no pain, it takes a crazy amount of firepower to take the Great Unclean One out. Which is good ‘cos he’s isn’t all that great at anything else. He’s so slow that it’s usually pretty easy for the enemy to keep out of combat with him, and with no real ranged weaponry to speak of there’s not a lot else he can do.

 

On to the upgrades; first up, cloud of flies. Basically, you get grenades, so you can charge through cover without penalty and the enemy doesn’t get an extra attack for charging you, for 5 points? Take it. Aura of decay is a weak, short ranged shooting attack that costs a lot, against low toughness horde armies (think tyranids) you might get a few kills, but generally it’s not worth taking. Breath of chaos, while an excellent upgrade, is just too expensive, and the Great Unclean One is just too slow to justify it here. Unholy might, +1 Strength? No point, you already wound on a 2+, and against vehicles you hit plenty hard enough, leave it at home. Instrument is, as always, points filler.

 

Tactics:

Since it’s so slow, the Great Unclean One requires a bit of skill to use effectively. Best bet is to tie up a unit in close combat with something like plaguebearers or nurglings, and then have your greater daemon plow in to them and finish them off. Being so cheap, you can get this guy at pretty low points games, so in those games he can often create an area where the enemy simply won’t go, combined with a few plaguebearers you can pretty much guarantee an objective is yours. The best build for the Great Unclean One is the Epidemius build, but we’ll go in to that in more detail later.