[Daemon review] HQ.

[Raptor1313]

I'd note one more thing, Malachi (tempted to shorten it to 'Mal' as a firefly reference every time I see it.)...

 

As a Monstrous Creature, he has Move Through Cover so he's not QUITE as slow as you'd think with Slow 'n' purposeful.

 

He's the bargain-bin greater daemon, and you get what you pay 165 for.

[minigun762]

As far as tactics, I would add something about moving him through cover to get to enemies, since he has grenade equivalents and rolls 3D6. It won't slow him down much, it denies enemies the use of that cover and provides for a decent cover save all at the same time.

[Captain Malachi]

@Raptor: Feel free to shorten it, I love that show B)

 

You both make good points, I'll edit them in in a little bit.

[Captain Malachi]

Right, I've sorted out the GUOs entry, so on to the big bird. The reason I like him is probably due to the way I use him, yes he's expensive, but take out 2 battle tanks with him and he's made his points back, and with bolt and 4 MC attacks on the charge, there's a good chance of that happening. I use him in my 2k daemonzilla list with we are legion only, and use him as my primary tank hunter, we are legion allows him to add a bit of anti-infantry fire, and lets him bust open a transport and hit the unit inside as well. He's expensive, and could use a cost reduction, but overall I like him because he can fight in CC, while also being good at range.

[minigun762]

Right, I've sorted out the GUOs entry, so on to the big bird. The reason I like him is probably due to the way I use him, yes he's expensive, but take out 2 battle tanks with him and he's made his points back, and with bolt and 4 MC attacks on the charge, there's a good chance of that happening. I use him in my 2k daemonzilla list with we are legion only, and use him as my primary tank hunter, we are legion allows him to add a bit of anti-infantry fire, and lets him bust open a transport and hit the unit inside as well. He's expensive, and could use a cost reduction, but overall I like him because he can fight in CC, while also being good at range.

 

I think the rest of us are done with the bird brain, since we skipped ahead.

[Captain Malachi]

Yeah but I'm the only one who disagreed :) Besides, Raptor wanted to know why I like him so much.

[minigun762]

Yeah but I'm the only one who disagreed :) Besides, Raptor wanted to know why I like him so much.

 

Its not that the Lord of Change is bad, he's just the worst of the 4 Greater Daemons.

Then again its the same thing with anything thats a hybrid unit, they're hard to like for some people.

[Captain Malachi]

Well, here's my draft for the LoC, of course I'm a little biased so you'll probably disagree.

 

Lord of Change:

Tzeentch’s greater daemon, this one is your fire support, something daemon armies generally lack in. Unfortunately, for less points you can get two heralds on chariots with the same weapons and more wounds. However, I still like this guy, I’ll explain why in a little bit.

 

First, we’re going to look through the upgrades. First up is we are legion, this lets you hit two enemies in the same turn, and since the weapon you start with really don’t work well together, this is often a must despite it’s high points cost. Master of sorcery on the other hand, is often better left at home, since you can already fire two weapons, to use master of sorcery you’d have to buy breath of chaos as well. Speaking of which, breath seems like a nice upgrade, though often you want to stay away and it costs a lot, so I’d leave this one too. Boon of mutation is just too expensive and too situational to be any use in a competitive game, take only in fun games. Instrument will rarely help, you don’t really want to be in close combat with units that can cause enough to wounds to force a draw.

 

Tactics:

A lot of people like to use their Lords of Change as a long range fire support unit, which is a valid tactics, but it doesn’t make full use of it’s abilities, and if you’re going to that you may as well take a pair of heralds for a lot less points. My personal tactic, I say personal but I’m sure others use it as well, is too use him as my primary anti-tank, by hitting the unit tank with bolt and then charging with four monstrous creature attacks, few tanks can stand up to that kind of punishment. I only take we are legion on mine so that I can hit other units with his daemonic gaze ability.

[djkest]

Being a monstrous creature, can he automatically fire 2 shooting attacks without an upgrade?

 

Man, if Bolt of Change was STR 9 or 10, I think it would be better. Look at tau, they get str 10 AP 1 shooting attacks on broadsides and hammerheads. BoC is only really good against light and medium vehicles. Gotta roll a 6 / 6 to destroy a land raider or Monolith.

 

Almost 300 points for a shooty monster who has a tiny chance to take out the big tanks... ? Could potentially do more damage in HTH combat, but at that point you'd be better off w/ the other 3.

[Captain Malachi]

Yep, he can fire two guns. You're right, going raider hunting is dumb, but I have my bloodthirster for that, things like leman russes though....well, thanks to daemonic flight it's pretty easy to get side shots off, and then if that doesn't work, you can crush them in CC.

[minigun762]

I would mention the 3+ Inv save, as thats the best save of any kind of Greater Daemon. Against high S weapons like Missiles or LasCannons, he's the most survivable and 2nd only to the Great Unclean One for everything else.

 

Also, you don't have to copy the whole entry but I think mentioning that he comes with Gaze and Bolt would be appropriate. You reference the powers without actually saying it though.

 

One last thing that the Lord of Change can do well is snipe transports. Bolt @ BS5 is a fairly reliable way to bust a Rhino or Wave Serpent and if you can open it up in the shooting phase, that means you can assault the unit in the next phase. Using this 1-2 punch can rid you of nasty units like Fire Dragons/Falcons or Plague Marines/Rhinos in 1 turn. This allows the Lord of Change to function as that hybrid shooty/assault unit.

[Captain Malachi]

Thanks Minigun, not quite sure why I didn't mention that use for him, considering I often use him that way.

 

Lord of Change:

Tzeentch’s greater daemon, this one is your fire support, something daemon armies generally lack in. Unfortunately, for less points you can get two heralds on chariots with the same weapons and more wounds. However, I still like this guy, I’ll explain why in a little bit. A point worth mentioning is that the big bird comes with daemonic gaze and bolt of change as standard, both of which are fairly good ranged weapons, not as good as those of other races, but two of our best.

 

First, we’re going to look through the upgrades. First up is we are legion, this lets you hit two enemies in the same turn, and since the weapon you start with really don’t work well together, this is often a must despite it’s high points cost. Master of sorcery on the other hand, is often better left at home, since you can already fire two weapons, to use master of sorcery you’d have to buy breath of chaos as well. Speaking of which, breath seems like a nice upgrade, though often you want to stay away and it costs a lot, so I’d leave this one too. Boon of mutation is just too expensive and too situational to be any use in a competitive game, take only in fun games. Instrument will rarely help, you don’t really want to be in close combat with units that can cause enough to wounds to force a draw.

 

Tactics:

A lot of people like to use their Lords of Change as a long range fire support unit, which is a valid tactics, but it doesn’t make full use of it’s abilities, and if you’re going to that you may as well take a pair of heralds for a lot less points. My personal tactic, I say personal but I’m sure others use it as well, is too use him as my primary anti-tank, by hitting the unit tank with bolt and then charging with four monstrous creature attacks, few tanks can stand up to that kind of punishment. I only take we are legion on mine so that I can hit other units with his daemonic gaze ability. Another use for the Lord of Change is to snipe transports, you can bolt the transport, and then gaze the unit inside and assault them, meaning you can often rid yourself of that annoying tactical squad threatening your home objective in one turn.

 

Not much of a change but still thought I should post it anyway.

[==Me==]

The Lord of Change is too expensive for what little he does and when you're off getting all these upgrades, you may as well field Fateweaver. I'll take the 2 chariots any day.

 

Cap has an interesting way of using the big bird, but I don't think it justifies the massive cost. For those points you can field those chariots and have points towards Soul Grinders, Fiends, Screamers, and the like. As much as I love him, the Lord of Change is easily the worst of the Greater Daemons. I know you're a big fan, but don't let it color your write-up too much.

[Captain Malachi]

I've tried to remain as neutral as I can, unfortunately I'm very opinionated :P I'll agree that normally it doesn't justify the points cost, but the guy fits my army. How's this?

 

Lord of Change:

Tzeentch’s greater daemon, this one is your fire support, something daemon armies generally lack in. Unfortunately, for less points you can get two heralds on chariots with the same weapons and more wounds. However, I still like this guy, I’ll explain why in a little bit. One major thing the lord of change has going for it, is that it comes with a 3+ invulnerable save, making it more survivable than both the keeper of secrets and the bloodthirster. A point worth mentioning is that the big bird comes with daemonic gaze and bolt of change as standard, both of which are fairly good ranged weapons, not as good as those of other races, but two of our best. Generally though, the Lord of Change is considered the worst of the greater daemons due to it’s high points cost.

 

First, we’re going to look through the upgrades. First up is we are legion, this lets you hit two enemies in the same turn, and since the weapons you start with really don’t work well together, this is often a must despite it’s high points cost. Master of sorcery on the other hand, is often better left at home, since you can already fire two weapons, to use master of sorcery you’d have to buy breath of chaos as well. Speaking of which, breath seems like a nice upgrade, though often you want to stay away from the enemy and it costs a lot, so I’d leave this one too. Boon of mutation is just too expensive and too situational to be any use in a competitive game, take only in fun games. Instrument will rarely help, you don’t really want to be in close combat with units that can cause enough to wounds force a draw.

 

Tactics:

A lot of people like to use their lords of change as a long range fire support unit, which is a valid tactic, but it doesn’t make full use of it’s abilities, and if you’re going to do that you may as well take a pair of heralds for a lot less points. My personal tactic, I say personal but I’m sure others use it as well, is too use him as my primary anti-tank, by hitting the tank with bolt and then charging with four monstrous creature attacks, few tanks can stand up to that kind of punishment. I only take we are legion on mine so that I can hit other units with his daemonic gaze ability. Another use for the Lord of Change is to snipe transports, you can bolt the transport, and then gaze the unit inside and assault them, meaning you can often rid yourself of that annoying tactical squad threatening your home objective in one turn.

[Raptor1313]

Looks decent to me, though I'd seperate the 'why folks don't like him' into one piece, then proceed to discuss what you can get out of the guy.

 

I'd also note that Fateweaver is competition for the points in addition to the chariots

 

Beyond that, I can see the tactics, but the only real thing I see him bringing is that IF he kills the transport, he MIGHT do ok in assault vs. the targets.

 

Vs AV 11

BS5, S8, AP1

83% of the time you get a hit.

Penetrate on 4+, kill 50/50 then. 20% chance of a penetrating kill

Glance on a 3, kill on a 6. 2% chance of that happening.

Daemonic Gaze need not apply here, as it can only immobilize, and does so 1/6 of the time.

 

So about a 1/4 chance of actually popping the transport.

 

With 4 attacks on the charge at WS5, you hit on 3's and likely wound on 2's.

 

The real question whether or not the unit in the transport is worth assaulting with the Lord of Change, IE: can he clear them off in a round, and can they hurt him back?

 

Against Fearless troops, he'll kill 2-3, and be stuck in for a while, and not shooting.

Against non-Fearless troops, he'll kill 2-3, and make them take a morale test at -1 to -3, assuming they can't hurt him.

 

If they have a powerfist or rending, then there's a chance you'll take wounds on your big bird.

 

Vs AV12,

83% chance to hit

Penetrates 1/3 of the time, kills 1/2 the time, so opens up an AV12 transport with bolt a little more than 12% of the time.

 

While the big bird CAN conceivably get into range to open up a transport, it's still letting the enemy throw a LOT at the big bird. You can try to get stuck in to assault, but then you're not really that scary; basically a slightly-tougher marine captain.

 

Pretty much, I'd run the Big Bird in a for-fun game, but not necessarily competitive.

 

Then again, I'm not sure how competitive I trust our codex to be...but that's another matter, and I think I've covered that in the intro.

[Captain Malachi]

I'm not sure about giving him a section on why he's bad, noone else got one and it just seems like a way to convince people not to take him, which I don't agree with, and isn't what we want to do with the guide. Or, it isn't what I want to do anyway. Oh, and you should be working out the chances against AV10, since with only a little positioning you should be able to hit the rear armour of the transport.

[minigun762]

I'm not sure about giving him a section on why he's bad, noone else got one and it just seems like a way to convince people not to take him, which I don't agree with, and isn't what we want to do with the guide. Or, it isn't what I want to do anyway. Oh, and you should be working out the chances against AV10, since with only a little positioning you should be able to hit the rear armour of the transport.

 

I wouldn't give a whole separate section on why not to use him.

You've already mentioned the 2 main negative points.

1) Chariot Heralds and cheaper and just as good

2) Worst Greater Daemon because he's too expensive

 

I wouldn't try dissuading anyone from using him, because honestly he's not that bad (not like Spawns in the CSM army ;) ). He's just the worst choice of the 4 big guys.

[Captain Malachi]

So is what I got alright? 'cos I'd quite like to move on to Ku'gath.

[minigun762]

So is what I got alright? 'cos I'd quite like to move on to Ku'gath.

 

I'm happy with it personally.

[Captain Malachi]

Cool, well then I'll let you start on the plaguefather, I would but I'm a little busy.

 

Edit- On second thoughts, I'm just going to quote my earlier thoughts from the thread we had a few days back on Ku'gath.

Ku'gath, imo, is worth it only in mono-Nurgle, with Epidemius on the field. His large blast template really helps rack up the kills, and when the tally's done he's still a MC with 6 wounds and a lot of attitude :P In multi-god armies there are just better choices though I'm afraid, a bloodthirster is better in CC and faster, while a LoC is better at shooting, and faster. One thing that really bugs me about Ku'gath though is that his ranged weapon can't even touch a landspeeder, no strength value and only 1D6 for armour penetration (well, highest one of two) means no way to hurt vehicles, even opentopped ones.

In addition to that, I also pointed out the fact that nurgling infestation is optional, meaning that in KP missions you can forego it to deny the enemy a KP, and in objecitve missions you can get up to 6 free objective contesters/one-turn tarpits.

[==Me==]

Ku'Gath:

I'd rather have 2 GUOs :tu:

[I AM THE AWESOME]

I kind of like Ku'gath, and while I agree 2 GUOs are better, basically his main use is in Mono-Nurgle. He's so expensive for just so little effect in any other build.

[Raptor1313]

Just pointed out math-hammer on why the pop-transport-and-charge-the-goodies isn't always the best trick. Felt it was necessary, since that trick is useful IF it goes off...

 

As for Ku'Gath...I agree, but I'd add that if you want a Pavane template list, he can go in there as well.

[minigun762]

I think we might have already covered the big green blob in that previous topic. Atleast enough for his article.

[Raptor1313]

I would agree on that. We've pretty much hashed him out.

 

So, I'll cover Skarbrand, a favorite of mine.

 

Skarbrand, the Exiled One

It's a bloodthirster, minus wings, plus fleet. He has the requisite 3+ armor save and 4+ invulnerable. He has Unholy Might, Fleet, an extra attack, the same furious charge we love, and a few extras. First up is the Breath of Chaos, which lets him soften up his targets (or leave them out of charge range at times), and an Instrument of Chaos.

 

Most important, though, is his Rage Embodied special rule. As it's stated, everyone (friend or foe) within 24" re-rolls missed to-hit rolls in close combat.

 

Let's stop a moment. Skarbrand himself has six base attacks at WS10, I5, and S8 base. By his lonesome, he can and WILL win combat against anything short of a heavy-duty Nob Biker squad, or a large unit of Thunder Hammer terminators. Not much in the game takes 5-6 S8-9 wounds well. It just doesn't happen. Now, let's take a look at the Daemon list as a whole. This list lives and dies in assault.

 

Better yet? Skarbrand's ability is not 'preferred enemy', Skarbrand's ability is 're-roll misses in close combat.' This means that when we try to hit a vehicle's rear armor, we re-roll it. Consider that we're usually trying to smack a vehicle enough to kill it, Skarbrand buffs our anti-tank capability as well.

 

So how do we use Skarbrand's ability? The answer is kind of simple. Swing before the other guy and kill him. What does the other guy re-roll, then?

 

Between this and his 300pt price tag, it means that Skarbrand is a centerpiece unit for a larger army. You must bring high-initiative units (Slaanesh) and high-durability units (Nurgle troops, Soul Grinders) to minimize the edge you're giving your opponent.

 

Skarbrand is abjectly brutal in close combat, and makes your assault-oriented army extra-killy in melee as well. However, you must build around him, and he's not necessarily easy to protect either. He hides best in melee, but rarely stays in assaults long. He is, though, vulnerable to tar-pitting. Consider getting him STUCK into a tarpit it keeps you out of lascannon/plasma/rail gun fire, but only if you can afford to solve the problems he's not.