[Daemon review] HQ.

[minigun762]

Sounds pretty good to me Raptor. I'd mention that while his "aura" is large, it doesn't cover the whole board. Smart positioning (like running up a flank) can help you minimize who gets the buff and who doesn't.

Even more than normal 'thirsters, I think the perfect match for this guy is Flesh Hounds.

1) They can keep up with him

2) They will almost always get the charge and that means Furious Charge

3) S5 I5 is enough to hurt damn near anything and with reroll to misses, you'll pile on so many attacks that even Terminators or MCs will start to fear you.

 

Just for poops and laughs, this is how 10 Flesh Hounds on the charge with Skarbrand would do against a Wraithlord

30 attacks @ WS4 = 22.5 hits @ S5 = 3.75 wounds @ 3+ = 1.25 wounds, not bad for dogs.

 

But the key with Skarbrand is to hit them first and hit them hard.

[Raptor1313]

Fiends. Daemonettes. Soul Grinders.

 

These are Skar's buddies. Plaguebearers and Nurglings as tarpits/scoring units.

 

Skar is VERY particular in his build. You have to build so that you don't CARE what the other guy is, you just have to smash him. His Aura is pretty hefty with the 24" radius, so it's not like you have a huge say who gets it and who doesn't. Anyone in hand-to-hand with him and his buddies gets it. So, you concentrate your list (as you should anyway, given Daemons don't do hordes like Orks can)

 

Flesh Hounds can keep up with him, but have no good way to charge into cover. (Then again, that's a general weakness in our list).

 

Plus, against heavily assaulty enemies, sometimes it's jsut going to hurt. (Like Harlequins, for example..). That's the risk of the builds you can do with him.

[Captain Malachi]

I'm afraid I'm not going to have a great deal of time tonight for the review, family issues, should be sorted by tomorrow. However, I just wanted to point that we're going to be doing some sample lists and an overview of the more common daemon builds, which includes the Skarbrand and his ladies build, so how much do we want to put in on it in his entry? We'll have the same problem with Epidemius as well.

 

Anyway, I'll write up a section for Ku'gath and post it up tomorrow hopefully.

[minigun762]

I'm afraid I'm not going to have a great deal of time tonight for the review, family issues, should be sorted by tomorrow. However, I just wanted to point that we're going to be doing some sample lists and an overview of the more common daemon builds, which includes the Skarbrand and his ladies build, so how much do we want to put in on it in his entry? We'll have the same problem with Epidemius as well.

 

Anyway, I'll write up a section for Ku'gath and post it up tomorrow hopefully.

 

If we're doing sample lists, I'd just post the kind of units that would be helpful with Skarbrand, namely high I, multiple attacks and fast moving.

[Raptor1313]

No worries on the family bit, Mal. Family > 40k, generally.

 

Unless it's annoying relatives. Then 40k > annoying relatives.

 

I'd just leave it at 'Skarbrand likes high initiative or durable friends' and Epe 'likes nurgle units' and have a note to see the sample builds around them.

[Captain Malachi]

Right, here's Ku'gaths section, I think it needs a little work to be honest.

 

Ku’gath the Plaguefather:

Essentially a bigger, badder and meaner great unclean one with a few nifty tricks. Ku’gath has an extra wound and attack over the regular great unclean one, making him a scarier prospect in close combat as well as making him even harder to take down at range.

 

His nurgling infestation ability essentially gives you a 50/50 chance for a free nurgling base a turn, which can come in handy in objective missions for contesting, but is a little less useful in kill point missions since it gives away free ones to the enemy. Fortunately, it’s an optional ability, meaning in kill point missions you can simply choose not to use it. His other little trick is his necrotic missiles attacks, this can be potentially devastating. It’s a large blast that wounds on 4+, meaning that enemy units in the open will take 50% casualties, pretty harsh by anyone’s standards. It has a few drawbacks though, for one, most enemy units will be in cover, so they can save half of those wounds, also, many units these days have invulnerable saves, another way to lower the amount of wounds they take. Finally, it has absolutely no way to hurt vehicles, meaning you have to get in combat with them to do anything.

 

Ku’gath, while powerful, has some serious down sides, not least of which is his exceedingly high cost, almost as much as two regular great unclean ones. He has a few decent ranged attacks, but can only use one a turn, though he does get aura of decay free, making him even better in close combat. Also, like all great unclean ones, he’s very slow, so getting in to close combat is hard, though his necrotic missiles at least allows him to affect the battle without needing to be in combat. Generally, we aren’t fans on this guy, his price is just too high for the effect he has, though in a large mono-Nurgle build he can be worth it, it really needs to be at least 2000 points though, preferably higher.

 

I'll work on Skarbrand later, after we've agreed on Ku'gath.

[Raptor1313]

On Ku'Gath

 

Being a monstrous creature, he can use up to two ranged attacks...or at least you'd think so, by the rules.

 

You could summarize Ku'Gath by saying he's a GuO that pays 140 for all the gifts, an extra attack and wound, and the two special abilities.

 

Nurgling infestation is a neat 'gimmick' ability in non-KP missions.

 

Necrotic Missiles is useful for its ranged attack [and we've covered the pros/cons there in-depth].

 

The real question is whether you want to pay 140pts for all those upgrades to a regular Great Unclean One.

 

 

So I think you could probably shorten his section to that. He really IS just a GuO with a bunch of costly upgrades, so we really only need to cover what sets him apart from the standard Fat Green Guy.

[Captain Malachi]

Forgot he could use two ranged attacks, changed that. I don't want to just say "he's a GUO who pays 140 points for some nice tricks", because that doesn't really help the readers, we need to give them a comprehesive review, I know it's a bit long, but these things always are, so it's not that big of a deal. I've edited a little bit, I have tried to just talk about what sets him apart.

[minigun762]

Ku'gath's entry just seems a little bit wordy.

I agree it shouldn't be quite as simple as Raptor put it, but as it is, I think the reader might get a bit lost and miss the point.

 

I'd break it up into 2 parts, the good things that set him apart from a normal GUO and the bad things.

 

Combine the first two sections as they're both good things.

With the NI ability, try making the section easier to read. Something like:

Nurgling Infestation gives you the option of generating a free Nurgling Base 50% of the time. This can be a real benefit in an objective based game but with Kill Points, it might be more trouble than its worth.

 

Same kind of idea with Necrotic Missile, you can simplify it by saying its a great ability to wound units outside of cover or without an Inv Save and its totally useless against any sort of vehicle. At the best it gives the slow guy a method to reach out and hurt someone while waddling up the board.

 

More than anything his single drawback is the cost. The question to the player is, is the fancy stuff worth another GUO almost?

[Captain Malachi]

How's this?

 

Ku’gath the Plaguefather:

Essentially a bigger, badder and meaner great unclean one with a few nifty tricks. Ku’gath has an extra wound and attack over the regular great unclean one, making him a scarier prospect in close combat as well as making him even harder to take down at range. Basically he’s a great unclean one that pays for 140 points for some nifty abilities. His nurgling infestation ability gives you the option of generating a free nurgling base 50% of the time. This can be a real benefit in an objective based game but with Kill Points, it might be more trouble than its worth. Necrotic missiles gives you a decent ranged attack that can decimate units outside of cover that have no invulnerable save, but is totally useless against vehicles.

 

While powerful, the big guy has some serious down sides, not least of which is his exceedingly high cost, almost as much as two regular great unclean ones. Basically what you need to ask yourself is whether he’s worth the price of almost two regular great unclean ones in your army. Generally, we aren’t fans of the guy, he only really has a place in a large points games, mono-Nurgle builds, and even then it’s often better to take a regular great unclean one. He has his uses, but often it can simply be done better by other units.

[minigun762]

I like it alot better, my only question is, what are the other drawbacks to him besides his point cost? We make it seem like there is others but don't say anything.

[Captain Malachi]

Well, what are the other drawbacks? Other than the ones that the regular GUO has. I edited that bit out 'cos you all told me too and now you want it back in? :)

[Raptor1313]

There's not really a drawback that sets him apart aside from the GUOs.

 

Same speed issues.

Same inability to really get a lot of use out of Breath of Chaos.

 

his real problem is the points cost, as you could put those 140pts elsewhere. It's an opportunity cost, to use the economics jargon. Excuse me, I have to go slam my head against a brick wall to expunge the memories of THAT class...

 

::Wanders back in bleeding from the forehead. But you should see the wall!::

I'd just suggest referencing the GUO section for the drawbacks, since we really DID cover those.

 

I just feel like he trades the cost advantage for the ordnance attack.

[Captain Malachi]

I've added this sentence to the end (I'm not going to post the whole thing again): "Otherwise, he simply has the same drawbacks as the regular great unclean one." That sound good?

[Raptor1313]

Sounds good to me. No need to re-write the whole GUO analysis when, in Ku'Gath's case, he really IS just a heavily upgraded one.

[minigun762]

I've added this sentence to the end (I'm not going to post the whole thing again): "Otherwise, he simply has the same drawbacks as the regular great unclean one." That sound good?

 

Perfect!

 

So whats next?

[Captain Malachi]

Well I'll start writing up Skarbrands section next, gotta work on the armoury bit first though. In the meantime if you guys want to work on Fateweaver be my guest.

[Raptor1313]

Alrighty.

 

Fateweaver

This one is, in a word, quirky-bird.

 

It's a 333 point Lord of Change. It takes all the shooting gifts, and gets them cheaper than the standard Lord of Change. what this means is that Fateweaver, or Kairos as he's sometimes called (read his entry to find out), can fire a Bolt of Tzeentch at one target, then fire off Daemonic Gaze and Breath of Chaos at two more targets. Then, if you're crazy enough to charge with Kairos, he can charge a fourth unit, as he has We Are Legion and Master of Sorcery on top of his Monstrous Creature ability to fire two ranged weapons a turn.

 

The other major, major perk that Fateweaver offers is the ability to re-roll ALL saves (cover, armor, and invulnerable) if you're within 6" of him. Considering our saves are, well, somewhat low (only a few units get better than a 4+, and most of ours need cover to get THAT) you can see how this is useful.

 

So, you have a big bird with a lot of guns and a localized buff. His daemonic flight lets you place him where your units can get the most benefit out of him.

 

However, this goodness doesn't come without a price. In addition to his 333pt price tag, Fateweaver carries two penalties.

 

First, his stat line: it's pretty much the same as a Lord of Change's, save that all stats are at -1 aside from his BS and his save. This means he's really nothing in close combat (WS4, I4, S5, power weapon? Marines can do better than THAT.)

 

It's the second penalty that catches the most notice. For each unsaved wound, Fateweaver takes a leadership test at his ld9, and if he fails? He runs back to the warp. Granted, they have to break a 3+ invulnerable with re-rolls, but he's also T5 and has only 3 wounds. Thus, he's highly vulnerable to massed fire.

 

Ultimately, Fateweaver has a lot of firepower, and buffs your army, but requires kid gloves in handling. Don't charge him in to 'finish off' a wounded enemy; he probably can't do it. He has the mobility to either hide or place where needed.

 

Basically, if you're going to use Fateweaver, make his ability a big part of what you're planning on with your list. He's big, shooty, and a durability booster. Give the enemy some distractions, and move Kairos in to buff them and shoot the odd unit or two, and you'll like him.

 

Run Fateweaver headlong at the enemy expecting his uber-shootyness to win the day, and you'll wonder what just happened to 333 points of your army as you watch a few feathers flutter down from where you SWEAR he was just standing.

 

He's quirky, but powerful.

[Captain Malachi]

Just a quick note, but you can't charge a fourth unit, you have to pick from the three you shot at. Usually this will be the one you breathed, but sometimes not.

[djkest]

So I did some mathhammer on the 4 greater demons, regarding their ability to survive different forms of attack, how good their defenses were, for the base cost. You might fight this interesting. I will tell you the number of attacks/shots needed to cause 1 wound, and then how many to kill the creature outright. I may do some mathhammer on their attacking as well.

 

Shooting:

Bolters, BS4. S2W/S2K (shots to wound, shots to kill)

GUO: 36 S2W, 180 S2K

BT, LoC: 27 S2W, 108 S2K

KoS: 18 S2W, 72 S2K

 

Analysis: It will take a ton of fire to bring one of these demons down, but the Keeper of Secrets is most vulnerable by far.

 

Plasma Guns/Pistols, BS 4

LoC: 6.74 / 27

GUO: 4.5 / 22.5

BT, KoS: 4.5 / 18

 

Analysis: Lord of Change can soak up the most heavy weapons fire, followed by Great Unclean One. Keeper and Bloodthirster are most vulnerable to this. These figures accuratley represent hits from Lascannons, melta weapons, and artillery also.

 

 

Close Combat:

Great Unclean One and Keeper can have defensive grenades, which is a huge help here, but we'll not use those for these calculations.

 

Charged by Khorne Berserkers

GUO: 24/ 120 (the great unclean one is very resistant to this attack. Would take 40 charging berserkers to kill him)

BT/LoC: 18/72

KoS: 12/48 (while being vulnerable here, the KoS would go first and kill a couple, denying their assault)

 

Sergeant with Powerfist, WS4

BT, LoC: 7.2 / 28.8 (yes, it will take over 7 attacks to cause 1 wound!)

GUO: 4.8 / 24

KoS: 4.8 / 19.2 (taking transfixing gaze is very important here!)

 

WS4, STR 4 generic attacks

GUO: 48/240

BT: 54/ 216 (having high WS and Iron hide comes in handy!)

LoC: 36/144

KoS: 24/96 (keep in mind, this thing is I-10!)

 

 

Overall: Lord of Change is very resistant to High Strength shooting and MC/Dread Attacks. Somewhat vulnerable to massed low strength attacks.

 

Great Unclean one is very resistant to being charged, low strength non-power attacks, and massed shooting. With 5 wounds, FnP, and Eternal Warrior, he's a pain to kill. Overall most defensive.

 

Bloodthirster: Decent survivability, excellent against WS 4 or lower oppenents in CC, only weakness is high strength/ AP shooting, and would be vulnerable to WS 5+ powerfist type attacks.

 

Keeper of Secrets is the most vulnerable to all types of attacks, and the most vulnerable to shooting. Keep in mind, with Initiative 10, Defensive Grenades, and (if you take it) transfixing gaze, you can really survive a long time in close combat. This one needs to get stuck in fast.

 

 

I think based on my analysis, the Great Unclean one is a little underrated for his points. I think his melee ability is actually slightly better than most people think. Bloodthirster is a little more survivable than most people think, and Lord of Change is surprisingly adept at shrugging off the most brutal attacks.

 

If you think about the shooting stats, it's quite apparent that greater demons can survive a round or two of intense, concentrated shooting more often than you would think. How many people can fire 18 plasma shots in 1 round?

[minigun762]

As for Fateweaver, I firmly believe that even more than Skarbrand, you have to build your list with him in mind.

He is a support unit, running him along side your other Greater Daemon and Daemon Princes will make for a hard hitting MC attack force but don't expect him to bring alot to the table, even with his shooting.

[==Me==]

Good deal on the big bird, very handy but surprisingly brittle and requires an army built around him.

 

With a 3+ invulnerable the LoC will laugh off heavy weapons and high S attacks, but medium S high RoF weapons like Deffguns will hurt him bad (same goes for the Kipper). His problem isn't survivability, it's doing enough damage to justify the massive price tag.

[Raptor1313]

I don't think you measure Fateweaver's use soley in the damage he doles out.

 

I think you measure it in what he does to the enemy's lethality.

 

Granted, shooting the crap out of him does work, what with the lower toughness. Any smart enemy will jump at the chance to kick off a lot of heavy bolter/deffgun shots.

 

However, put him near plaguebearer tarpits and watch the enemy just sigh and get stick before something big and nasty obliterates the stuck-in troops.

 

Fateweaver is definitely not someone you just shove into your build, that's certain.

[Captain Malachi]

Alright lads, first version of skarbrands section is ready.

 

Skarbrand, the exiled one:

He’s a slightly slower bloodthirster with a few neat tricks. He has no wings, but he gets fleet, so he’s still fast enough for most purposes. He has an extra attack over the regular bloodthirster, and comes with unholy might, making him a pretty scary prospect in close combat. He also has something a regular bloodthirster can never get, breath of chaos, this makes him pretty damn scary on the charge.

 

However, none of these things are what makes him special. No, what makes him special is his “rage embodied” special rule. Making everyone in 24” re-roll to hit, friend and foe alike, is one of those things that completely changes the game, and when used right, will win you the game. The important thing to remember when using Skarbrand is to maximise the attacks you get, while minimizing the attacks you opponent gets. There’s a specific build revolving around Skarbrand which we’ll discuss in more depth later on, but for now what you need to remember is that anything with high iniative works best with Skarbrand, since they will get lots of attacks out before the enemy, and therefore the enemy won’t get the bonus, they can’t re-roll their attacks if they’re dead.

[Raptor1313]

Looks like it gets the point across to me, Mal.