[Daemon review] HQ.

[Captain Malachi]

Oh, we'll start on the heralds in a day or so, once I've written up Kairos' entry.

[Captain Malachi]

Ladies and gentlemen, I give you Kairos Fateweaver.

 

Fateweaver:

Tzeentchs favourite lord of change is an odd character, he has all the powers a regular lord of change can get, plus some, for only a couple of extra points. On the other hand, all but his save and ballistic skill are knocked down by one over his generic counterpart. What makes him so special though, is his oracle of eternity power. It lets all friendly units with a model within 6” to re-roll all their saves, making them a lot more survivable, this ability also includes fate weaver himself. However, the drawback is that if he suffers a wound, he has to take a leadership test on the lowest leadership value in the army, though admittedly it’s still 9. If he fails, well, goodbye Kairos.

 

He costs a lot, but has an enormous influence on the game, drop him in with a few units close by and you have a very solid core of troops that just won’t die. He also has about as much close combat power as your average chaos marine lord, not impressive for a greater daemon. He’s an amazing bonus to your army, but requires a lot of care in his use, not recommended for beginners, but if you want a tough, shooty greater daemons who’ll help you out a lot, take him.

 

Once we've finished this we can start on the herald of Khorne.

[djkest]

Herald of Khorne is an interesting fellow he is (obviously) very powerful in close combat, rivalling the scariest marine characters in HTH prowess. The real downside I see to the HoK is, sometimes they aren't a whole lot more powerful than the rank and file khorne troops in combat: A Herald on a Juggernaught is only slightly more scary than a bloodcrusher, for 3 times as many points. Mounted on a chariot, he's a surgical scalpel for slicing up enemy troops. Heralds of Khorne come with a power weapon. In a unit of Bloodcrushers, a herald could be useful to take psychic caused wounds, help with unit allocation, and help concentrate power (since bloodcrushers have huge bases)

 

The Skulltaker is an enhanced Herald of Khorne with a better statline, all the upgrades, and a to-wound roll of 4+ means instant death to the enemies. At 175 points on a Juggernaut, he's not terribly expensive, and he can really slice and dice rank and file troops.

[minigun762]

Ladies and gentlemen, I give you Kairos Fateweaver.

 

Fateweaver:

Tzeentchs favourite lord of change is an odd character, he has all the powers a regular lord of change can get, plus some, for only a couple of extra points. On the other hand, all but his save and ballistic skill are knocked down by one over his generic counterpart. What makes him so special though, is his oracle of eternity power. It lets all friendly units with a model within 6” to re-roll all their saves, making them a lot more survivable, this ability also includes fate weaver himself. However, the drawback is that if he suffers a wound, he has to take a leadership test on the lowest leadership value in the army, though admittedly it’s still 9. If he fails, well, goodbye Kairos.

 

He costs a lot, but has an enormous influence on the game, drop him in with a few units close by and you have a very solid core of troops that just won’t die. He also has about as much close combat power as your average chaos marine lord, not impressive for a greater daemon. He’s an amazing bonus to your army, but requires a lot of care in his use, not recommended for beginners, but if you want a tough, shooty greater daemons who’ll help you out a lot, take him.

 

Once we've finished this we can start on the herald of Khorne.

 

I'd emphasize the fact that it requires more than alot of care to use him, in alot of ways you have to build the army around him and his powers to get the most out of him. He's like Epid in that way, you build an army with him as a focal point. I think his point cost and his drawback is too much to warrant adding him into a normal list.

Having said that, imagine him within 6" of a Bloodthirster and 3 Nurgle Daemon Princes... You'd be so hard pressed to effectively kill those 5 MCs before they wrecked half your army.

[==Me==]

Agreed, Fateweaver needs a very specific build to get the most out of him.

 

Khorne Heralds can kick the snot out of any equivalent HQ for significantly less points. Unholy Might and Blessing are standard upgrades, but beyond that the real choice is Jugger or chariot. If you put him on a Jugger, why not just get Bloodcrushers instead? On a chariot, your Herald has comparable stats to a DP with iron hide for free and a lot cheaper.

 

Chariot Khorne Heralds are basically discount DPs and totally worth their miniscule price tag. 105 points of win.

[minigun762]

Khorne Heralds can kick the snot out of any equivalent HQ for significantly less points. Unholy Might and Blessing are standard upgrades, but beyond that the real choice is Jugger or chariot. If you put him on a Jugger, why not just get Bloodcrushers instead? On a chariot, your Herald has comparable stats to a DP with iron hide for free and a lot cheaper.

 

Chariot Khorne Heralds are basically discount DPs and totally worth their miniscule price tag. 105 points of win.

 

Agreed, 105 points for a ghetto Daemon Prince. You can fit almost 3 of these guys in for every Bloodthirster, though the 'Thirster still has a big advantage in speed. The only negative of the Herald is he's going walking speed.

 

Oddly enough, I think the Skulltaker works best buried in a squad of Bloodletters, functioning as their "Aspiring Champion" so to speak. The Juggernaut options means he needs a Bloodcrusher escort, but those guys are tough enough already and the Chariot doesn't give him the speed he really needs.

[Raptor1313]

Heralds on BLoodcrushers are still independent characters, and can still join units.

 

I'd say they've got three basic uses:

 

Aspiring Champs:

Might, Iron Hide, Blesing

105

 

Goes in with 'letters, smites things a little harder than they do.

 

Juggernaut

same 105, same buffs as the aspiring champion, pretty much.

In exchange for the larger base, you get another wound, and another 5 gets you the Blessing. PLus, you can go up to S6.

 

Herald Chariots are mini MCs, pure and simple. Slow, lumbering, and absolutely killy.

[Captain Malachi]

Just a quick thing, we're doing Skulltaker later, so don't worry about him yet.

 

Here's the updated version of Kairos' section.

Fateweaver:

Tzeentchs favourite lord of change is an odd character, he has all the powers a regular lord of change can get, plus some, for only a couple of extra points. On the other hand, all but his save and ballistic skill are knocked down by one over his generic counterpart. What makes him so special though, is his oracle of eternity power. It lets all friendly units with a model within 6” to re-roll all their saves, making them a lot more survivable, this ability also includes fate weaver himself. However, the drawback is that if he suffers a wound, he has to take a leadership test on the lowest leadership value in the army, though admittedly it’s still 9. If he fails, well, goodbye Kairos.

 

He costs a lot, but has an enormous influence on the game, drop him in with a few units close by and you have a very solid core of troops that just won’t die. He also has about as much close combat power as your average chaos marine lord, not impressive for a greater daemon. This is not the sort of model you can just add in to your list, he requires some serious care to use effectively. You really need to build your army around him to get your moneys worth.

 

Also, my thoughts on Khorne heralds. I think they can do well in a big unit of bloodletters to make a solid core to your battleline, but are best either on a jugger in some 'crushers, or on a chariot. On a jugger you get a very strong character who can have a high enough strength to enable the unit to fight dreads, and win. That alone makes the 'crushers so much more powerful, think about it, what advice do we always give other people to stop 'crushers? Throw a dread at them, if that's taken away then the unit becomes very powerful.

 

As for the chariot, well you guys have covered that bit. Just a thought though, since the chariot changes his use so much, I'm thinking I might do the section for each herald in two parts, a normal section, and then a section for the chariot. These won't be really long sections, just a way to keep them separate, they'll still be in the same entry of course.

[Raptor1313]

@ Mal

 

Concur with the Fateweaver write-up. Not much else to add; he takes care to use and can't just be slapped into your army.

 

I think a chariot section would be decent for the heralds.

 

Personally, I'd almost rather ALWAYS field my heralds in chariots, but I tend towards either Tzeentch chariots or MCs as my army leaders.

[Vassakov]

I don't really see the point of a Khorne Herald in a Chariot to be honest. The only real difference, beyond the points is 1 Wound and the loss of IC. Personally, I see him more in a unit of Bloodcrushers - say 4 Bloodcrushers with rending, icon and instrument plus the Herald. 335pts for a unit that can go through just about anything, is hard as nails and has to take 6 wounds before they even THINK about nailing one.

 

Skulltaker I plan to hide with some Bloodletters. The thing is, how many IC's or things that are multiwound and not immune to ID to you see on their own? Nobz Mobs, Wraithlords, Fexes if they're out of synapse? Anything else? Everyone else worthy of Skulltakers attentions will be hidden, often with a couple of Fists for backup. Even on a Chariot, T5 and a 5+ isn't that good, and chances are he'll be sitting there going through 5-10 mates before the big guy gets clobbered. By which time Skulltaker will either be dead, or nearly there. On the other hand, back him up with 9+ Bloodletters - anything Skulltaker doesn't kill, they will.

[Captain Malachi]

This is my first section for the herald, I haven't given him a separate tactics section since he's just too varied in his use depending on what you give him.

 

Herald of Khorne:

On foot: This guy is a buff character, stick him in a unit of bloodletters and watch them carve their way through just about any unit they can catch. In this incarnation, the best upgrades to choose are blessing of the blood god, unholy might and iron hide, this gives you the ability to pass additional wounds caused by psykers to your herald, and to help block a couple of wounds that would otherwise kill a bloodletter, the unholy might makes your attacks more powerful. As said, the best way to use this guy is to simply point him and his unit in the direction of the enemy. The problem is his slow speed, a fast opponent will be able to avoid your unit.

 

On a juggernaut: Put him in a unit of bloodcrushers and you have partially mitigated the bloodcrushers main weakness, dreadnaughts and other walkers. With unholy might, blessing of the blood god and fry of Khorne you have a decent chance to take out a dread that attacks you, which your unit would otherwise have serious problems with. Again, his main downside is speed.

 

On a chariot: Put your bloodletting fiend on a chariot and you have a cheap little mini daemon prince. He loses the independent character rule, but gains a whole lot of wounds and other nifty little bonuses. With blessing of the blood god and unholy might you have a solid unit for hitting the enemy hard. However, he is still slow, and without the independent character rule, he’s vulnerable to getting shot up on his way to the enemy. Despite this, this loadout is still considered the best options for heralds of Khorne.

[minigun762]

I wouldn't worry about Iron Hide if he's footslogging. He should have 10+ ablative wounds to help him survive and he still can't be insta-killed.

Its not a bad upgrade, just not really needed in my opinion. In essence he's really playing like a Sarge or Champion, you're paying 90 points for a S5 Power Weapon. Actually when I say it like that, it doesn't sound nearly as good haha.

[Captain Malachi]

Actually that's a good point, gonna go edit that now. To be fair though, you aren't paying for a S5 power weapon, you're paying for more S5 power weapon attacks, a 2+ save against psychic powers, 2 more wounds etc.

[==Me==]

I don't like Heralds on foot. Bloodletters do the same thing only you get more and they score. A Herald with Iron Hide costs the same as a Herald on a chariot and I know which I'd prefer.

 

The chariot Herald is an optimal build because with might and blessing he weighs in at a meager 105 points. A Daemon Prince with Iron Hide and Unholy Might costs 130 points and you don't get blessing in exchange for extra BS and WS. The biggest downside to the chariot Herald is his lack of mobility and taking up 1/2 of an HQ slot.

[minigun762]

The chariot Herald is an optimal build because with might and blessing he weighs in at a meager 105 points. A Daemon Prince with Iron Hide and Unholy Might costs 130 points and you don't get blessing in exchange for extra BS and WS.

 

Agreed, Chariot Khorne Herald is probably the best bet. Look at it this way, you could spam 4 of them for less than the price of 2 'Thirsters and thats alot of MC equivalents charging around.

[Captain Malachi]

Mostly agree with you, chariot's best, but the foot and jugger heralds are still valid options.

[Raptor1313]

Jugger's good to hide in a unit as a champ type, but I agree that you're basically paying about 3 times the price for a basic troop with an extra wound and slight stat buff.

 

The real meat is in what his other options offer.

 

And you have to compare the Khorne herald to Skulltaker. Skulltaker's rending on 4+ means he deals with armor much more handily.

[Captain Malachi]

I figured it would be better to compare Skulltaker to the herald, like we did with the GD characters, rather than the other way around.

[Vassakov]

Skulltakers rending only works on non vehicle models. Best use for Skully is hide him in a Bloodletters unit, then use him to clobber an IC. Or an entire unit of Nobz... that would be fun - as all the Biker Nobz are made in Tournies to be seperate, he has to stick them on different ones - wounding and Insta-gibbing on a 4+, striking first. Oh, they wouldn't like that.

[Captain Malachi]

So not a single one of you actually thinks having a decent chance to take out dreads is a good thing in a 'crusher unit?

[Vassakov]

So not a single one of you actually thinks having a decent chance to take out dreads is a good thing in a 'crusher unit?

 

Oh no, I think a Jugger mounted Crusher is better than a Chariot. You get the hiding in a unit, and a S6/7 Rending guy is a lot of use. Also, it looks awesome.

 

http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii189/vassakov/Crusherlord1.jpg

[djkest]

Really though, 135 points for Unholy Might, Blessing, Rending. In the end, it would be better to take 2 bloodcrushers for 80 points, wouldn't it? That's my biggest issue with khorne heralds, they do the same thing that the rank and file does, just a little better, for a lot more points. I guess it would be a bigger deal if heralds had power weapons and the rank and file did not.

[==Me==]

S6 and rending is not very reliable against Dreads. While a rending hit guarantees a penetrating hit, you have to hit on a 3+ and get a 6 for the rend. It's an outside chance, and definitely not a good enough reason to throw them against a Dreadnought. Send Fiends or MCs after them instead.

 

I don't normally field Kheralds outside chariots because for the points you pay, and HQ slot you take up, it is usually better to just field more Bloodletters and Bloodcrushers. You lose out on a wound, some WS and attacks, but you make it up in numbers and protection against shooting and free up 1/2 of an HQ slot.

 

Now Skulltaker, that's one mean mother.

[Captain Malachi]

4 attacks, S6, needs a 6 to rend. That's just over 1/3 chance of getting the rend, and it's an auto-pen, add in the rending from the other 'crusher and I'd hardly call that an outside chance. I'm not saying it makes dreads a prime target for them, I'm saying it takes away their main counter-unit.

[==Me==]

Well, charging that's going to be 5 attacks.

 

Hits on a 3+, so 10/3 hits

 

Rends on a 6, so 10/18 = 5/9 penetrating hits

 

5,6 destroy, so 5/27 destruction results

 

So, even charging, the Kherald has a roughly 19% chance of destroying a Dreadnought. 4 Fiends, on the other hands, get 24 attacks, 12 hits, 2 rends, 4/3 penetrating hits, and 4/9 destruction results. 44%, more than double of the Kherald. Plus, they have cavalry movement.

 

Please note I did not take into account glancing hits and multiple "weapon destroyed" and "immobilized" results, because I'm lazy and didn't want to :P

 

Not trying to be an ass or anything, but I really don't think you can list "Dread busting" as one of the Kherald's main selling points. He's tough, cheap, and hits hard in assault, but Dreads are not his forte. He does better than Bloodcrushers and Bloodletters, but that doesn't mean he's great at it.