[Daemon review] HQ.

[==Me==]

@Cap: The Nurgle Herald bit is a rather wordy way of saying "this sucks" but I'll go with it :D

 

@Vassakov: Good run down. Tzeentch Heralds are cheap fire support that provide some much needed anti-tank and MEQ. The bolt, legion, master chariot is a steal considering its resilience, mobility, firepower and flexibility.

[Raptor1313]

I'm really down for the bolt-chariot buildout for the herald of Tzeentch.

 

It's pretty much our best bang-for-buck shooty HQ. Mobile anti-tank shot, and can dump some light anti-armor shots or decent anti-personnel.

 

It's vulnerable to high volumes of fire, as it's only T4 with a 4+ save.

 

However, if they're pouring that kind of fire into it, they're not shooting at other things.

 

Personally, if I'm not running an MC? I'm running a chariot-herald, and this one is my favorite.

[Vassakov]

A second point on Heralds of Tzeentch - whilst we agree on the chariot build for optimal damage:points if you're going to take a Herald on Disc only, is their any reason not to take the Bluescribes instead? I added up their options using the normal Herald and found them to be 40pts cheaper BEFORE adding the Pavane and AoD to them - which obviously they can't take normally.

[minigun762]

A second point on Heralds of Tzeentch - whilst we agree on the chariot build for optimal damage:points if you're going to take a Herald on Disc only, is their any reason not to take the Bluescribes instead? I added up their options using the normal Herald and found them to be 40pts cheaper BEFORE adding the Pavane and AoD to them - which obviously they can't take normally.

 

Other than the fact that you might often use 2+ Heralds, I don't see anything wrong with that idea at all. However I'm looking at the codex and I don't see where they can take a chariot, they might be jump infantry but they lack the number of wounds of a normal Herald.

 

 

A related question on this unit though, if a Herald joins a Horror squad, is he still able to use We Are Legion and target different units than the rest of his squad?

EDIT: Nevermind I read the last paragraph of Legion and it says they can, nice!

This means that a Herald without a Chariot buried in a Horror squad would also be useful, you just trade the extra speed on the Herald for lots of bodies in the squad.

[Vassakov]

A second point on Heralds of Tzeentch - whilst we agree on the chariot build for optimal damage:points if you're going to take a Herald on Disc only, is their any reason not to take the Bluescribes instead? I added up their options using the normal Herald and found them to be 40pts cheaper BEFORE adding the Pavane and AoD to them - which obviously they can't take normally.

 

Other than the fact that you might often use 2+ Heralds, I don't see anything wrong with that idea at all. However I'm looking at the codex and I don't see where they can take a chariot, they might be jump infantry but they lack the number of wounds of a normal Herald.

 

 

A related question on this unit though, if a Herald joins a Horror squad, is he still able to use We Are Legion and target different units than the rest of his squad?

EDIT: Nevermind I read the last paragraph of Legion and it says they can, nice!

This means that a Herald without a Chariot buried in a Horror squad would also be useful, you just trade the extra speed on the Herald for lots of bodies in the squad.

 

Heralds on Chariot lose the Indepent Character rule, so you can't bury them. Heralds on discs though...

 

The point about using the Bluescribes is more their flexibility, which we can cover in more depth. That, and the idea of two Blue Horrors on a disc, squabbling, and hurling random fireballs at the enemy amuses me greatly. Try DS'ing the Bluescribes in a unit of Flamers on Turn 1 and watch as they leap to the top of the enemy list of "Stuff to kill." And they're all Jump Infantry, so are faster than they look.

[minigun762]

A second point on Heralds of Tzeentch - whilst we agree on the chariot build for optimal damage:points if you're going to take a Herald on Disc only, is their any reason not to take the Bluescribes instead? I added up their options using the normal Herald and found them to be 40pts cheaper BEFORE adding the Pavane and AoD to them - which obviously they can't take normally.

 

Other than the fact that you might often use 2+ Heralds, I don't see anything wrong with that idea at all. However I'm looking at the codex and I don't see where they can take a chariot, they might be jump infantry but they lack the number of wounds of a normal Herald.

 

 

A related question on this unit though, if a Herald joins a Horror squad, is he still able to use We Are Legion and target different units than the rest of his squad?

EDIT: Nevermind I read the last paragraph of Legion and it says they can, nice!

This means that a Herald without a Chariot buried in a Horror squad would also be useful, you just trade the extra speed on the Herald for lots of bodies in the squad.

 

Heralds on Chariot lose the Indepent Character rule, so you can't bury them. Heralds on discs though...

 

The point about using the Bluescribes is more their flexibility, which we can cover in more depth. That, and the idea of two Blue Horrors on a disc, squabbling, and hurling random fireballs at the enemy amuses me greatly. Try DS'ing the Bluescribes in a unit of Flamers on Turn 1 and watch as they leap to the top of the enemy list of "Stuff to kill." And they're all Jump Infantry, so are faster than they look.

 

Oh yeah the Blue Scribes are fast, I was just saying they don't get the extra wounds of a Chariot, which is the big bonus for me.

For burying a Herald, I meant a walking one. Just Legion, Master and Bolt. Think it comes out to be 95 points for a mobile gun platform in your Horrors.

[Captain Malachi]

I'd say the walking herald is a good choice provided you have the horrors to guard it, but for the extra 15 points (or however many it is) I'd rather get the chariot version. Still, it's a perfectly valid choice.

 

And what is it with you lot and having to discuss units we're going to do later? ^_^

 

I've written up something for him, but I'll post it later.

[Raptor1313]

I'm not terribly sold on the Disc of Tzeentch, myself. 15 points for an extra attack and jump infantry status.

 

The extra attack is moot. Jump infantry means that your herald wants to join Flamers, as they can keep up. If I'm thinking about putting a Herald with flamers, I'm probably buying Breath of Chaos. At that point I've got a glorified 2-wound, T3 flamer that costs as much as 2-3 normal flamers.

 

I'd go with either the 'buried' Bolt + Sorcery + Legion for 95 points, or the chariot one. I'd go for the 'buried' one only if I felt like being cheap, but I feel that the Chariot one's mobility makes it a major asset to an army that, once on the ground, is fairly slow.

[Captain Malachi]

Thanks for reminding me about this thread Raptor, here's what I wrote up last night.

 

Herald of Tzeentch:

On foot: Hide him in a unit of horrors, give him we are legion, master of sorcery and bolt of Tzeentch and you have a solid anti-tank unit, with excellent anti-troop power, and a lot of bodies. This is a solid choice, and can be brutal if used right.

 

On a disc: Extra mobility and an extra attack seems pretty good, but the extra attack is wasted as these guys should be kept out of combat, and the only units that match him for speed are flamers, but they want to get close while the herald doesn’t. It does mean you can jump between horror units though, but generally I’d avoid disc mounted heralds.

 

On a chariot: The best option really, you get a ton of wounds, more speed and a stat boost, as well as furious charge. With bolt, legion and master of sorcery, you get the most cost effective ranged anti-tank in the daemon army. Furious charge is wasted though, as you don’t want to be in combat. Like all chariots, you lose the independent character special rule, so you can be slightly more vulnerable to shooting, but the extra wounds make up for it.

[minigun762]

Do you really get Furious Charge? I missed that haha.

 

I like it, all 3 choices are presented and its obvious which ones are better than others. You might just want to put up a small note before the 3 choices explaining that the Tzeentchian Herald should always be used as fire support with a main focus on anti-tank as Daemons as a whole lack solid ranged anti-tank (which is the main reason you're buyin him)

[Captain Malachi]

Good point, I'll add this in.

Like all Tzeentch units, the herald does best at range. He also fills up a gap in our army list in the form of ranged anti-tank, he is one of the few units in the codex that can reliably take out tanks at range, this is the main reason you're taking him.

 

Little bit wordy, but it'll do.

[minigun762]

perfect

[Vassakov]

Sounds good to me.

 

What next?

[Captain Malachi]

Slaanesh I guess, then the special characters.

[minigun762]

To me Slaaneshi Heralds are like Tzeentch, the best ones use their Chariots for the stat bonuses and extra speed.

 

My personal favorite is what I like to call "The Sexy Missile of Death"

Herald on Chariot with Unholy Might for 75 points

 

What you've created is basically a super Fiend, S5 on the charge with tons of Rending attacks, all at an initiative that would make Eldar seem troll-like. You also get a 4+ armor save which helps you from being total Bolter bait. You can get 4 of these girls for about the same cost as a single 'Thirster and I think it might even be more killy.

[Captain Malachi]

Agreed, the chariot is definately the way to go with these gals, though I might consider adding musk if points allowed. What lets them down though is the T3, it's just not good enough these days, eldar get away with it to some extent thanks to their crazy-ass psychic powers, but we don't have that luxury. Gerenally I'd rather take a different HQ, and even in mono-Slaanesh a keeper is usually better.

[==Me==]

Chariots get T4 and armor :)

 

I use Slaanesh Heralds exclusively in chariots. On foot and with a steed they don't have the T or save to stand up to anything.

 

==My== pick is the rubber ball chariot. Sopoforic Musk ftw here. Same plan as Fiends, DPs and the Keeper, engage the enemy and bounce around picking your fights. Thanks to H&R you don't need unholy might as with furious charge you'll get S4 anyway. If anything else I'll add Pavane as a nice trick, but BS3 and a high cost makes this a luxury one can rarely afford.

[Captain Malachi]

Sorry, before I posted the second half of that comment, there was a long train of thought where I started thinking about foot heralds, that's what I was talking with T3. Although, a chariot with T4 is still pretty low.

[minigun762]

Although, a chariot with T4 is still pretty low.

True but it what, T4 with a 4+/5+ save and what, 3-4 wounds? All for 65-75 points? I'd say thats a steal, especially in lower point games.

In a 1.5k game you can splurge on a Greater Daemon, but below that I think you're better off with a few cheap Heralds.

[Vassakov]

You see, with the exception of the speed, is there anything that a Slanneshi Herald is good for? The only real use I can see for them is the 75pt build suggested and using one or two in smaller games to harry units like combat sqauds/heavy weapons teams/Crisis Suits and the like. They might have 6/7 Rending attacks but they are indepentent units, and so if they hit anything that is any real good in CC then T4 and a 4+/5++ makes them little more survivable than SM Scouts. Admittedly H&R can mitigate this somewhat, but they still suffer from the typical Slannesh problem of being make of cracked glass.

 

So, a basic recap of the Heralds:

 

Khorne: Slow, but has the highest killing power of anything short of a MC.

Slannesh: Fast, both movement and I wise and can slaughter a small, lightly armed squad. However, is very fragile even with a Chariot.

Tzeentch: Excellent shooting power, provides much needed AT options. Can be very fast. Useless in CC.

Nurgle: Slow, can't kill much in combat, no shooting to speak of. Reasonably hardy.

[minigun762]

You see, with the exception of the speed, is there anything that a Slanneshi Herald is good for? The only real use I can see for them is the 75pt build suggested and using one or two in smaller games to harry units like combat sqauds/heavy weapons teams/Crisis Suits and the like.

 

I think thats the main use, though don't forget they make a decent HQ assassin unit as well as a good tank buster thanks to S5 and Rending.

 

Run them up, hit a Leman Russ from behind and there is a very good chance it will go pop. You've already made more than its points worth.

If you treat them as assassin units, taking out the weak or small squads then you'll do well. If you bog them down in a 30 Ork mob, well you'll learn your lessen shortly. ;) Hit hard, hit fast and hit often.

 

Its my personal opinion that the Heralds rank like this:

Tzeentch Chariot

Slaanesh Chariot

Khorne Chariot

everything else

If they're not mounted on a Chariot, then more of the basic daemon will probably be better point for point.

If they are on Chariots, they work like mini versions of their respective Greater Daemons.

[Raptor1313]

I submit that the Slaaneshi chariot-herald NEEDS soporific musk, badly.

 

S5 on the charge isn't bad, and with the speed, it should be able to get the charge.

 

However, past that? You're not really durable with T4 and 4+/5+. You really have to pick on weaker units with minimal CC capabilities to get the most out of the chariot. It zooms in, ties them down, lets backup get there, and either finishes the job or disengages.

 

Like a lot of slaanesh units, it just doesn't have the durabilty or stamina for a prolonged combat. It's got to win fast, or it'll die to attrition with its sub-par durability.

[==Me==]

Bingo. The Sherald isn't going to be going after Terminators, it's headed after Devastator Squads and Crisis Suits. T4 4+/5++ and 4 wounds isn't tough? Sure it is, especially for how little you're paying for it. If you're concerned about survivability, double up. Send a pair out and your enemy has to take on 2 separate units. They run in, dish out some rending pain (character sniping is a good idea) and bounce out to go after another juicy target, leaving a dumbfounded enemy to get reamed by whatever else is on hand. That's how the Slaanesh units work, death by papercuts.

[sexiest_hero]

The biggest point of the Slaaneshi herald is it's almost broken speed. d6" fleet 12"6" move assault means that she can safely land out of range of most non heavy fire power and still hit combat.

They work on surprise, jump in combat with a dreadnaught, bring his attacks down one, then next turn Hit and run, and all of a sudden you have a model zooming 30"+ across the board. One can use multiples to tie up MC's (I've managed to take a hive tyrant down 4 attacks). You can tie up a shootie dread or Carnifex, knocking them down to one measly attack while you rend away. If they bring backup or a counter charge Hit and run +move and fleet a half table away. Trust me, once you have 4 of these ladies bouncing around the table tieing up things, taking away attacks, then bouncing 30"+ to another target, the cries of broken won't be far behind. Add to the fact that they are really cheap and back to the future fast. My ping pong/tie them up combo never fails.

[Raptor1313]

I wouldn't expect a Slaaneshi chariot to bring down dreads.

 

Rending dreads? S5, needs to hit 6's to rend, needs to get a 3+ to penetrate.

 

 

6 attacks.

4 hit.

0.6667 rends

0.44 penetrating hits vs AV12

 

Not going to kill a dread. Might tie one up for a turn, but it can't reliably drop them on its own. If you really want to kill armor with Slaaneshi units, bring fiends. More attacks, and always at S5.

 

It's a guided missile, but not necessarily a high-strength guided missile. As ==me== said, it goes and messes with things it can beat in melee. It has the speed to do so, as well. I would always field them in pairs, minimum, given their need for backup.