sexiest_hero Posted February 24, 2009 Share Posted February 24, 2009 It's less beating the dread than holding it up or simply springboarding off of it. Even if you shake is count your self lucky and bounce to the Dev unit a8" behind it. thats what I was getting at. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/159089-daemon-review-hq/page/9/#findComment-1895312 Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted February 24, 2009 Share Posted February 24, 2009 The nice thing is that you don't have to worry about the Dread getting an insta-kill off on you. The worse you'll do is lose 2 wounds if you fail to shake it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/159089-daemon-review-hq/page/9/#findComment-1895449 Share on other sites More sharing options...
==Me== Posted February 24, 2009 Share Posted February 24, 2009 That makes more sense, and since Dreads can't do much damage on their own they make for a good springboard. I think a Kherald might be better than popping Dreads than a Sherald :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/159089-daemon-review-hq/page/9/#findComment-1895452 Share on other sites More sharing options...
sexiest_hero Posted February 24, 2009 Share Posted February 24, 2009 The worst you will lose is one wound with tranfixing gaze, it's only 5 points :). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/159089-daemon-review-hq/page/9/#findComment-1895472 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raptor1313 Posted February 24, 2009 Share Posted February 24, 2009 I'm not particularly inclined to take Transfixing Gaze, just on principal. It works against a single melee threat. That means you're dancing with a large target (Dreadnought, Wraithlord, Monstrous Creature) or a squad with just one melee threat (IE: Powerfist Sarge in tac squad). To be honest, I don't usually see much in the way of powerfist sarges, as regular marines aren't suited to CC and should avoid it. Chaos folks have plenty of attacks, and most other races have a dedicated shooty squad (IE: Fire Warriors. Big whoop, you cost them one attack...) or dedicated assaulty squads (...ok, that Thunder Hammer termie squad has 9 attacks instead of 10. Big deal.). I just don't see a lot of impact, but I suppose at 5 points it's tolerable, unless you had another option in mind for the Herald, since they're limited to three. One of those should, by default, be Unholy Might. One of them is Soporific Musk, to get your hit and run on. I'd be thinking about Pavane, except I'm reasonably certain that the herald is BS3. @==Me== I'd still not rely on a Khorne Herald taking out a dread. S6 or so attacks on the charge mean you're still hoping for the rend, and any combat walker is going to end you something fierce. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/159089-daemon-review-hq/page/9/#findComment-1895570 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Malachi Posted February 24, 2009 Author Share Posted February 24, 2009 Herald of Slaanesh:Like the others, there are three ways to use the herald of Slaanesh, foot, mount and chariot. On foot: This can be effective, in that you get a cheap HQ that can bolster the strength of a daemonette unit. The downside is that it’s a strength and toughness three HQ with no real combat prowess. You can add unholy might to get to strength four, but really there are better options than this. On mount: Like the foot herald, this can be used to bolster another unit, seekers in this case. The problem is, you’ve only gained one attack, and a longer charge range. You still need to get unholy might for strength four, and the seekers hit plenty hard enough as it is. In a chariot: Now this is where the fun begins, when put in a chariot she gains two attacks, three wounds, you go up to toughness four, get an armour save and furious charge. All for 15 points! The toughness four, extra wounds and the armour save mean you’re suddenly able to actually take a few bolter rounds and live, while the extra attacks and furious charge mean you hit like a freight train. Generally you’re still going to need unholy might for base strength four, but it’s also worth picking up soporific musk so that you can use the ping pong tactic described in the keeper of secrets section. If you’re taking a herald of Slaanesh, put her in a chariot, it’s also almost always a good idea to take more than one, since she needs backup. That good? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/159089-daemon-review-hq/page/9/#findComment-1895608 Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted February 24, 2009 Share Posted February 24, 2009 Looks good to me, only thing I'd maybe add is that the basic Sherald on Chariot is dirt cheap. Roughly 1/3 the price of the Keeper Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/159089-daemon-review-hq/page/9/#findComment-1895635 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raptor1313 Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 Looks good to me. Slaaneshi Chariot ends up faster than a Keeper (since it's Cavalry) but doesn't hit nearly as hard, since those are S4 rending attacks Vs S7 power weapon attacks. I don't think you can really compare the Keeper and the Slaaneshi herald. One's a nasty slaughtering machine in melee (six WS8 base S7 attacks that always go first and ignore armor saves) and one's a nasty ping-pong ball (six WS5, base S4 attacks that hit at I7 and rend). Keeper is additionally tougher, with the whole T6 and 4++ vs. T4 and 4+/5++. Mostly, my point is that while the Slaaneshi herald is cheaper, you'll still spend about as many points on bringing one and keeping it supported, since a lone chariot doesn't have the combat prowess to inconvenience anything past craptastic melee opponents. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/159089-daemon-review-hq/page/9/#findComment-1896420 Share on other sites More sharing options...
==Me== Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 @Raptor: I know, I was poking a little fun is all :) Cap put up a good write up, Sheralds are only really useful in chariots, and it never hurts to have multiples of them. They aren't a killer HQ on their own, but they support your army by disrupting the enemy and dragging them in assault quickly. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/159089-daemon-review-hq/page/9/#findComment-1896754 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Malachi Posted February 25, 2009 Author Share Posted February 25, 2009 Well if we're all happy with that let's move on to the Masque (this should be fun). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/159089-daemon-review-hq/page/9/#findComment-1896828 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vassakov Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 Well, she's T3 but has a 3++. Not fast, not very good in Close combat, but has the ability to use Pavane thrice. Quite good for bugging the enemy, but beyond that fairly pointless. A Chariot Herald with Pavane, or just a buried Herald is probably better given the short range of Pavane and it's general innaccuracy. She does have Legion, but you have to declare targets first. So if you really want a unit to move, have 3 cracks at it. On the other hand, the chances of achieving anything particularly useful are low. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/159089-daemon-review-hq/page/9/#findComment-1896912 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raptor1313 Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 You bring the masque for three reasons: Pavane, Pavane, and Pavane. No more, no less. She is NOT an independent character, so she cannot hide. If the enemy wants her to die, they'll direct a small unit at her and shoot her up, or at worst, assault her. I had a buddy that experimented with her in mono-nurgle as a way to get people closer to his slow Nurgle units. He ditched her after a bit, since 100pts was a bit much to pay for moving a couple units d6 inches before they shot her to death. There are simply more durable places to get Pavane. Between the perception that she can really influence the game and the fact she's easy KP (on average you need to put six wounds on T3 with a 3+ to kill it...) I'd expect her to get shot up without having that major of an impact. A tactical squad can easily mulch her in rapid fire range. (Say, oh, 7 guys with bolters, 3 with pistols 17 bolter shots, 11.22 hits, 7.4 wounds, 4.88 past her 3+. Buh Bye, Masque). The build she really has a place in is a themed pie-plate-party build. Beyond that, I'd not take her. Pavane can flub too easily with just a couple inches of movement, and once the enemy notices you're trying to move him around? So long, Masque. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/159089-daemon-review-hq/page/9/#findComment-1897101 Share on other sites More sharing options...
==Me== Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 The Masque is all about the Pavane, but she is fairly fragile. If you think 2 Pavanes before death is worth the points, go for it. I'm not a huge fan of her unless I have Fateweaver working his magic nearby. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/159089-daemon-review-hq/page/9/#findComment-1897486 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Malachi Posted February 25, 2009 Author Share Posted February 25, 2009 It's about time I actually said something. I think she's great in theory, but she's just too expensive. If she kept her indenpendent character status, she'd be worth taking, she might even be over-powered, but without she needs a serious cost-cut, 50 max I'd say, certainly not 100. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/159089-daemon-review-hq/page/9/#findComment-1897490 Share on other sites More sharing options...
I AM THE AWESOME Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 Echoing the others here, she sounds very nice until you actually field her. The only two ways she'll survive the battle are if 1) Your opponent is playing poorly or distracted by other targets or 2) She tags along with Fateweaver If the case is 1, then that's your opponent's fault and you definitely can't count on being successful like this. If the case is 2, you severely limit Fateweaver's mobility as you restrict him to "bodyguard duty." She just doesn't have enough durability. What would be really nice is if she were an independant character. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/159089-daemon-review-hq/page/9/#findComment-1897622 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raptor1313 Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 Fateweaver's not even a guarantee. It just means you need to put 12 wounds on her instead of six. That's 24 bolter hits, or just over a tac squad pumping fire into her. Or, it's some angry Dire Avengers deciding she needs to die. Or the dice crap on you anyway, Fateweaver or not. I'd say that she's best skipped, or at least that the Masque needs to have some friends around to draw fire. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/159089-daemon-review-hq/page/9/#findComment-1898609 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Malachi Posted February 26, 2009 Author Share Posted February 26, 2009 The Masque:In theory this gal is pretty awesome, three pavanes a turn mean you can pretty much dictate where your enemy will go, and if you have other units with pavane in your army it just gets better. However, she has one huge drawback- She can’t join units. She gets a boost to her save to try and make up for it, but she still only has two wounds, she isn’t going to survive long under any kind of concentrated fire. We feel that she simply doesn’t do enough to justify her points cost. Note though, that in a themed pavane list with a lot of templates and large blasts she can be useful. how's that? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/159089-daemon-review-hq/page/9/#findComment-1898842 Share on other sites More sharing options...
==Me== Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 That'll work, she's very useful but very fragile. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/159089-daemon-review-hq/page/9/#findComment-1899030 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raptor1313 Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 Sounds about right to me. You get three Pavanes with the Masque, then someone sneezes hard at her, she dies, and you're out 100pts. Considering what you can get for other heralds in terms of either speed, lethality, or both? Just use the others. at least she'd do more than a Nurgle Herald.. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/159089-daemon-review-hq/page/9/#findComment-1899032 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Malachi Posted February 26, 2009 Author Share Posted February 26, 2009 Well, on to Skulltaker then. I gotta say the Masque went a lot easier than I expected, when the 'dex first came out there was so much controversy over her it was unbelievable. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/159089-daemon-review-hq/page/9/#findComment-1899079 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vassakov Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 Well, on to Skulltaker then. I gotta say the Masque went a lot easier than I expected, when the 'dex first came out there was so much controversy over her it was unbelievable. Well, that's because when the Codex first came out we all thought ":cuss?!! Lash three times? golly - Broken!" Now we all know Pavane < Lash. Anyway, Skulltaker. Personally, this is one Kherald who shouldn't be in a Chariot. He should have backup, as to get the most out of him you want to hit the enemy HQ's and multiwound nasties. They'll usually be backed up by buddies, so Skulltaker should have mates. He's especially good with Wraithlords, who he insta-rends on a 4+. Backed up by some Bloodletters, he's basically devastating. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/159089-daemon-review-hq/page/9/#findComment-1899186 Share on other sites More sharing options...
djkest Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 Skulltaker could could be mounted on a Juggernaut and ran with some bloodcrushers. It would make him tougher to kill and harder hitting in combat. Skulltaker on a Juggernaut is a lot of power for the points, and give most people serious pause about taking him on in combat. Just about any special character, monster, multi-wound creature should rightly fear him. The real think he might run into is that again he is weak against armor and dreadnaughts. A smart opponent is going to try very hard to feed a dred to him and keep the unit busy for a long time. Giving him a bloodcrusher with rending MAY help you, or may not. Skulltaker should be pretty decent at chopping up NOBS too, since they each have 2 wounds, it would be a worthy cause for him. High strength, Initiative, Weapon skill, power weapons, high probability of instant death causing wounds, 3+/5++ save, T5... yeah, he rocks. On a juggernaut. Downside to him is that juggers and footslogging is kind of slow. Chariot is fast but unsupported. Can die to shooting like anything else. Doesn't have a ton of wounds so nasty stuff that can survive the charge might cause him issues. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/159089-daemon-review-hq/page/9/#findComment-1899219 Share on other sites More sharing options...
I AM THE AWESOME Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 Skulltaker could could be mounted on a Juggernaut and ran with some bloodcrushers. It would make him tougher to kill and harder hitting in combat. Skulltaker on a Juggernaut is a lot of power for the points, and give most people serious pause about taking him on in combat. Just about any special character, monster, multi-wound creature should rightly fear him. The real think he might run into is that again he is weak against armor and dreadnaughts. A smart opponent is going to try very hard to feed a dred to him and keep the unit busy for a long time. Giving him a bloodcrusher with rending MAY help you, or may not. Skulltaker should be pretty decent at chopping up NOBS too, since they each have 2 wounds, it would be a worthy cause for him. High strength, Initiative, Weapon skill, power weapons, high probability of instant death causing wounds, 3+/5++ save, T5... yeah, he rocks. On a juggernaut. Downside to him is that juggers and footslogging is kind of slow. Chariot is fast but unsupported. Can die to shooting like anything else. Doesn't have a ton of wounds so nasty stuff that can survive the charge might cause him issues. Chariot is still normal speed, ironically. But other than that, pretty much agree. @Raptor: 18, not 12. But yeah, still. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/159089-daemon-review-hq/page/9/#findComment-1899358 Share on other sites More sharing options...
==Me== Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 Skulltaker: Awesome /review Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/159089-daemon-review-hq/page/9/#findComment-1899366 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raptor1313 Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 Skulltaker's nasty with friends. One on one, he's going to KILL just about anything. The worst I can say about him is that he's pricy. On a jugger, he's 175, which is in the high-end Daemon Prince category. He's not quite as durable, but he is MUCH more killy. But, for that combat prowess? Put him in a unit. I'd kick around either footslogging or on a Jugger, as you don't really want to let the enemy pick him out and shoot him down. I'd keep him on foot or in a jugger with some bloodletters, or on a jugger with fellow Bloodcrushers. He also has a decent time vs. vehicles, since he rends on a 4+. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/159089-daemon-review-hq/page/9/#findComment-1899507 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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