It's just me...

[Grand Master Tyrak]

What does the INQ have wholly to itself, and is that *really* enough to fill out a 'dex? Inquisitors (two types), Assassins (Temple and DC) and a form of IG Stormtroopers.

 

You missed out the Chamber Militants. Whilst I agree that the Chamber Militants are armies in their own right, and should keep the ability to be fielded as such and their separate fluff, they are still irrevocably tied to the Inquisition. Indeed, the Chamber Militants are more part of the Inquisition than the Imperial Assassins, who belong to the Temples of the Officio Assassinorum.

 

That's why I agree with this:

Personally, I think GKs and SoBs make more sense in a well-defined INQ context - a SoB-only codex with just a paragraph mention that they are a militant chamber for WH doesn't cut for me.

 

For those who don't want the Sisters to be associated with the Ordo Hereticus, that's fine by me. But the Ordo Hereticus has to have someone as their Chamber Militant. Who else is there? The Frateris Militia? The Red Redemptionists? Frankly, neither cut it alongside the likes of the Deathwatch and the Grey Knights.

 

Also the non-SoB Ecclesiarchal units must fall under Hereticus jurisdiction (otherwise the Ecclesiarchy is breaking the Decree Passive).

 

Quite frankly, moving the Inquisitors into other people's 'dexes looks like a return to the days when they were just a unit entry in the Armies of the Imperium list in the 3rd ed. Rulebook. And that would be so much worse than what we have now.

[Brother Delias]

There is also the fact that you have to wonder, if they do in fact put them into the IG codex, will they end up being largely the same. For me I would have serious doubts on if my Inquisitor army would work, as it is a conjunction of a radical Inquisitor, and a renegade SM chapter. taking them and sticking them into a seperate codex would make their use now irrelivent in a sense. What I could see is if they made a seperate codex for inquisitors, making new units for their use, though who knows what that would to to the Inquisitors as such.

[Verythrax Draconis]

What does the INQ have wholly to itself, and is that *really* enough to fill out a 'dex? Inquisitors (two types), Assassins (Temple and DC) and a form of IG Stormtroopers.

 

...

 

The Militant orders are armies in thier own right, that can be fielded seperately to the INQ, and should be detailed as such.

 

 

That's what I disagree. They are the chamber militant of an Ordo, so they are part of that Ordo in enough extent to tie them together. It's not like SoBs and GKs have their own agenda out of their duty as a chamber militant, anyway. They have the autonomy to be fielded without and INQ supervising them, but they are 99% of the time working under their Ordos name.

 

But each one to his opinion :unsure:

[Gentlemanloser]

Of course! ;)

 

But I tend to agree more with;

 

While Grey Knights are not part of the Ordo Malleus, they are a Space Marine chapter permanently attached to the Ordo Malleus.

 

Although permanently attached to the Ordo Malleus they do not answer to the Ordo but work with the Ordo Malleus because of the similarity of their work.

 

The Inq cannot stand as an army on it's own. Unless you use Just Human Inquisitors, Servitors and Strom Troopers.

 

The GK and SoB can, and in the fluff are.

 

What I could see is if they made a seperate codex for inquisitors, making new units for their use, though who knows what that would to to the Inquisitors as such.

 

Why bother, when the Inquisitor can and will use everythign that's already available.

 

Want an Inq with Renegade Marines? Use current SM 'dex or CSM 'dex for the marines. Want an Inq with Deathwatch? Use Sternguard. Want an inq with Stormtroopers? Use IG. Etc.

 

There's nothing really defining enough for the Inqusition to warrant it's own 'dex (apart from detaling Inq's and Assassins *somewhere*), as they can grab bag every imperial (or radical) thing in the game.

[Dragons]

The Militant orders are armies in thier own right, that can be fielded seperately to the INQ, and should be detailed as such.

 

 

That's what I disagree. They are the chamber militant of an Ordo, so they are part of that Ordo in enough extent to tie them together. It's not like SoBs and GKs have their own agenda out of their duty as a chamber militant, anyway. They have the autonomy to be fielded without and INQ supervising them, but they are 99% of the time working under their Ordos name.

 

But each one to his opinion ;)

 

 

I'm going to have to dissagree with both you and Melissa here. I don't think the Chamber Militants are 99% working with OR 99% Working independantly. I expect it's been intentionally left vague to allow 'artistic license' with future authors/designers and us.. the players.

 

Personally I imagin 'm about 50/50.. Both the SoB's and GK being independant but VERY often called upon by their respective INQ 'masters' depending on the need.

 

I expect sisters field more 'pure' armies then GK's.. but that's because there are just so many more of them.. I expect there would be a lot more of them in inquisitorial armies as well.

 

Having the rules to support both is what we all want.. I think... and HOW they are going to do it is some good speculation.

 

I personally would like to see the Chambers Militant get their own Codexes and have the 'Codex Inquisition' be a 'mini dex' similar to what the old Codex Assassins used to be.

 

JUST the rules for Inquisitors and Inquisitorial forces.. and how to use/structure allies and the fluff.

 

-Dragons

[Gentlemanloser]

;)

 

But then including the mini 'dex into the IG 'dex is more win, isn't it? If you were going to purchase a mini dex anyway, this way you get a fully fleshed one, with possibly more options for your human Stormtroopers. ;)

 

And the GK and SoB still get their own 'dexes. ;)

[Verythrax Draconis]

@Dragons: Fair enough.

 

I personally would like to see the Chambers Militant get their own Codexes and have the 'Codex Inquisition' be a 'mini dex' similar to what the old Codex Assassins used to be.

 

Anything but this!

 

Not that a really mind about having SoBs and GKs "alone" in their own codex (I prefer to see them ia a aproppriante DH and WH codexes) but I usually use pure forces, anyway. But my idea is that having their own codexes is easily justifiable by including their own chamber militant together (like we have now).

 

I understand that INQ is "broad" enough to be added to any Imperial list, but a mini-dex is the way to make something irrelevant in the game - seriously, how much the assassins where took in account by the Imperial players of any army until they were added to DH/WH? Not much, I bet, otherwise GW would kept them in they own mini-dex alone, collecting dust in the shelf.

 

@Gentlemanloser: INQ + IG = way to go!

 

I personally don't like IST at all, but if they become a full-realized IG flavor, I bet they will be much more interesting to play, maybe enough to make me interested in try them - and will recruit more players to the Inquisition! ;)

[Twin .44]

Here's my opinion (whether you want it or not lol). When it comes down to inquisitors, what exactly are they? last i remember they were 'Second only to the Emperor himself' so therefore, exactly what is their Authority? Limitless is the answer folks. So Instead of this "By the authority of the Immortal Emperor of Mankind" crap, give Inquisitors a special PDF file that include the base heavy support, inquisitor capabilities, and Inquisitorial Stormtroopers. But, after they fill a different Compulsory, they are free to use any unit in any Imperial Codex to fill out the rest.

 

This represents an inquisitor's limitless capabilities. in other words, if you want to fill up your troops with Imperial Guard, but have your elites from Codex Space Marines with Baal Predators as heavy support, knowck yourself out!. Of course, there would be certain drawbacks, because this would be too broken. Limited FOC, or extra points to the inquisitor for every unit taken out of the codex, hence making this Inquisitor very important. although i came up with this sitting at work, it's sounds somewhat right when it comes to the fluff of an Inquisitor, and would need a LOT of working out. you can only truly play what an Inquisitor is capable of in Apocalypse, and you don't even need them.

 

Any additional ideas, or am i just aiming too high?

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Any additional ideas, or am i just aiming too high?

 

Yes - the love and devotion to the fluff that we get in a proper codex. It's not just the army list that comprises the Codex. If it was, why would BA players be moaning about their WD codex?

[Inquisitor Fox]

I actually have my Inquisitor fluffed (which I've been working on) as "assisting" a Guard Regiment for Cadian High Command...

 

in truth, she's actually observing them to ensure that there isn't something fishey going on.. but in large Apocalypse games I always end up fielding a combination of Imperial Guard, Witch Hunters (INQ and SoB) and Daemon Hunters units.. sometimes just Imperial Guard and WH Inquisitorial units (my favorite combo actually).

 

The real story is more complicated, and involves around the fact the commander of the guard regiment is the Inquisitor's brother, and a latent psyker. Not of any real great power, and weak enough to be missed by the psychic screenings, his abilities deal more with "gut feelings" and "battlefield intuition" (represented by the Macharian Cross in the current Codex). In short, he gets hunches, he goes with them, they turn out to be very effective, making him an excellent battlefield commander. His regiment seems to have bad luck in always tangling with nasty forces of Chaos and enemy pyskers though, but they keep surviving, thus the Inquisitorial attention and observation of an Ordo Hereticus Inquisitor :(

 

I.. would be essentially without an army if the Inquisition is seperated from the Sisters of Battle in a Witch Hunters codex redo. I LOVE the fact the Inquisition has ties that aren't exactly specified to the Sisters, it's a marvelous flufftastic bit of WH40K lore, going back to Sebastian Thor and Vandire and the Reign of Blood. I think it would be overall detremental to remove Inquisitors and relegate them the way of the Squat. I understand the purists and fans of the Grey Knights and the Sisters of Battle, but they don't lose anything by having the Inquisition forces in their Codex. Does it really detract that much from the Knights and Sisters to have a few extra entries in their Codex that they chose not to field? Having invested all this time, attention, painting, bits ordering for retinues, pouring over lore and fluff to build this army of mine though, to have the Inquisition pruned from the Codices because some people clamour for a "pure Grey Knight/Sister of Battle" book...

 

Yeah.. feel the hate :)

 

There are those of us who love the Inquisition and the Inquisitors as much as people love just the Grey Knights and just the Sisters. To assume that people would take just a wacky downloaded PDF list in tournements.. to not even have the models in a legitimate published Codex any more... that would be a blow much more damaging than leaving the Inquisitors and their retinue bands as is in a new Codex, and adding a couple more Grey Knight or Sister specific units to the existing Codices. It would take the Inquisition out of the Ordos, and well.. then who is there to call the Ordos in to battle?

 

Yes the Sisters are their own entity, but being as they were formed at the exact same time as the Ordo Hereticus, and are permanently tied to the Ordo by the Covenant of the Nephilim (sorry if I misspelled that) and the Sisters ARE a part of the Inquisition AS WELL as a part of the Ecclesiarchy AS WELL as being independant (talk about multiple hats! I love it ;)) they deserve to stay in the books.

[Twin .44]

how about we all agree that both Daemonhunters, and Witch Hunters need a new codex. in my opinion, before anyone else should get a new 'dex (CSM, ANY Space marines for that matter, Eldar, Tau, or any 4th edition dex) that the old 3rd editions should be redone first. I don't care what order, just they shoud have priority. I heard a Chaos player complaining that Chaos needed a new Codex because of the new space marines dex. Sometimes I wonder if GW forgot about the Inquisition as a whole......

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Twin .44 Posted Today, 06:44 PM

how about we all agree that both Daemonhunters, and Witch Hunters need a new codex. in my opinion, before anyone else should get a new 'dex (CSM, ANY Space marines for that matter, Eldar, Tau, or any 4th edition dex) that the old 3rd editions should be redone first. I don't care what order, just they shoud have priority. I heard a Chaos player complaining that Chaos needed a new Codex because of the new space marines dex. Sometimes I wonder if GW forgot about the Inquisition as a whole......

 

Well, there are some factions that need it even more than we do. Space Wolves, Dark Eldar and Necrons I would happily step aside for. The Chaos complaint comes from GW making such a dumbed-down botch job of the new Chaos Codex.

[Brother Delias]

No... it's just on a shelf... gathering dust...

 

What more do you really expect from GW?

 

<insert GW angst here>

[Melissia]

That's what I disagree.

And in the case if the Sisters, that is also where you are wrong. The Sisters have alwayd been very independant of the Inquisition, and they merely have an agreement to help the Witch Hunters when they are asked to do so. Ergo, they are an independant force (in this context anyway).

 

This is like saying that a Marine Chapter who agrees to help the Inquisition when called upon is now effectively no longer an independant force, but instead teid and slaved to the Inqusiition. A silly suggestion indeed; the Sisters are independant of the Inquisition for the vast majority of their actions have nothing to do with the Inquisition, much like the Marines (the differences between the Marines and the Sisters has more to do with the Marines being a fully independant force, while the Sisters are the military arm of the Ecclesiarchy).

[Grand Master Tyrak]

This is like saying that a Marine Chapter who agrees to help the Inquisition when called upon is now effectively no longer an independant force, but instead teid and slaved to the Inqusiition.

 

This is correct, they are tied to the Inquisition, for the duration of their service - they are under Inquisitorial command. Inquisitors just have the common sense to leave the tactics and strategy up to those who know their troops best. The same applies to the Chamber Militant, whilst they are attached as Chamber Militants they are tied to the Inquisition. Sisters are the only ones not permanently tied to the Inquisition, they are an Ecclesiarchal force that just have an obligation to serve as a Chamber Militant when needed. Grey Knights and Deathwatch, on the other hand, have no identity outside of being a Chamber Militant.

 

Besides, even if the Sisters were not a Chamber Militant, they will still be under Inquisitorial control in the same way that everything in the Imperium can be under Inquisitorial control. All that would be missing would be the treaty that ties them to the Ordo Hereticus. No one is independent of the Inquisition.

[Melissia]

You stated you disagreed with me then restated and agreed with my point, but in different words. I suppose I phrased it oddly, but yes, that's basicly what I meant.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Well then my question would be how could the Sisters change their position? They can't get any less tied to the Inquisition other than making the Hereticus requests an unofficial system rather than part of an official agreement.

[Eltnot]

Firstly, the Inquisition doesn't own any army. They are not allowed to have any fighting force under their command long term to help prevent corruption. The "Chamber Militants" of the various orders are no more then a convenient name for those forces that inquisitors are most likely to request/requisition for assistance.

 

If you have access to the 2nd Ed Sisters of Battle codex, you will know that the Sister's of Battle are actually the chamber militant of the Ecclesiarchy. You would also realise that the Ecclesiarchy in general HATES the Ordo Hereticus. Why? Because it is the task of the Ordo Hereticus to insure that the Chamber Militant of the Ecclesiarchy does not grow powerful enough to be able to start another war of faith.

 

A lot of people seem to overlook these facts. What you must realise is that the Ecclesiarchy is rather like the Church during the times of the crusades. They weild great power amongst the common people. SoB are the nuns of this church. Can you even imagine what these ladies would do in the name of their religion? If they believe you're acting against the faith, they'll use their prayer beads to pray for you only after they've finished using them to strangle you.

 

Since when has any religion liked other people controlling what they can and can't do in the name of faith?

[Melissia]

Actually it's the task of the Sisters as much as the Ordo Hereticus to police the Ecclesiarchy. If there is anything the Sisters hate as much as heresy, it is apostasy. THe Sisters were founded on the corpse of the greatest apostasy ever to exist, and their founder decapitated the man that ruled it. The Sisters despise any member of the church that desires power for power's sake.

[ripath]

I don't really agree with the whole Inquisitors are their own army thing, mainly because Inquisitors are the detectives of 40k. They aren't meant to be leading around armies except in extreme circumstances and even then not their own armies but what ever is available to them. As for not having fluff or getting sidelined I want everyone to take a look at dark heresy. An entire game devoted with great attention to detail to Inquisitors and your still saying that no longer printed with the chamber militants is too big a price to pay for that? :ph34r: Its true that Dark Heresy is not a table top game, its a role playing game. however with how much fluff people make for their inquisitors I think that GW made dark heresy so that all of that could be used, Instead of saying oh well same stats as IG only better shooting. It seems strange that they would tailor their designs so that everyone is happy right?

 

Also people looking for a good role playing adventure with pencil and paper are more common then you think. just visit a club that does stuff like DnD, white wolf, Vampire the masquerade and mage the ascension. I can almost guarantee that you will find enough players, and if not then your local 40k club should have enough people willing to play. Note that role playing games are meant for 4-8 players so its not like you need one person for every character.

 

Anyway if you factor in Dark Heresy it makes sense that GW would let the chamber militants become their own armies, because most Inquisitors want to be able to keep their fluff and most of the chamber militant players want a playable army that works well. Its almost like GW is secretly listening to us and our desires. ha what a preposterous notion. On a side note adding inquisitors to IG gives all INQ players a new army to make their own until the chamber militants get their own codex and so could be seen as something to tide us over and get us there.

 

Before you ask Dark Heresy is fun if you give it a chance and don't say well codex such and such was better. Its true you have one character, but even stuff like that characters homeworld gives in game benefits to your character! So I'd suggest that every Inquisitorial buff to play it. If your in the upper peninsula of Michigan and starting a new campaign pm me, I want to play again.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

I agree with the Dark Heresy thing (I use it to create my Inquisitors' backstories), but what I'm worried about is the Inquisitors being moved out of the codicies (leaving them as C: GK and C: SoB) and then not having the masses of love and fluff from Dark Heresy put in. They'll just have a token entry next to the unit, and be lost in the rest of the stuff they are attached to - like the IG codex.

[Verythrax Draconis]

If you have access to the 2nd Ed Sisters of Battle codex, you will know that the Sister's of Battle are actually the chamber militant of the Ecclesiarchy. You would also realise that the Ecclesiarchy in general HATES the Ordo Hereticus. Why? Because it is the task of the Ordo Hereticus to insure that the Chamber Militant of the Ecclesiarchy does not grow powerful enough to be able to start another war of faith.

 

You don't need the 2nd ed book, the 3th one have this info as well. I don't think nobody is overlooking this, it's just not that relevant as far as SoBs being tied to INQ or not goes.

 

It in fact just reinforce the non-independant status of the SoBs - No, their are not like a SM chapter, they owe direct obedience to 2 powers - Ecclesiarchy and INQ - but yes, they can act in they own as well. We are talking about the Imperium here. If the SoBs have an "agreement", they have the obligation to do so, always. SMs don't have this kind of agreement, but in fact they are "enslaved" by the INQ until INQ doens't require them anymore. The SoBs just exist because the Ecclesiarchy found that gap in the law and structured the sisters in a fighting force for their own profit. It's not like the SoBs "polices" the Ecclesiarchy. They are just a pet that's powerful (and righteous) enough to bit the hand that feeds if that hand goes to the "dark side".

 

But yes, you're correct, one of the reasons that INQ use the SoBs is to undermine the Ecclesiarchy a bit - if the Ecclesiarchy goes wrong, the INQ can use the SoBs against them, instead of need to destroy the SoBs together with them, if the worse happen.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

SMs don't have this kind of agreement, but in fact they are "enslaved" by the INQ until INQ doens't require them anymore.

 

Mmm . . . not really. The SMs can refuse an Inquisitorial request for aid as long as they can show a damn good reason for doing so. It's just that whatever the good reason is is usually what the Inquisition is asking for help with in the first place.

 

Once they have said "yes, all right", then you are correct.

[Twin .44]

Twin .44 Posted Today, 06:44 PM

how about we all agree that both Daemonhunters, and Witch Hunters need a new codex. in my opinion, before anyone else should get a new 'dex (CSM, ANY Space marines for that matter, Eldar, Tau, or any 4th edition dex) that the old 3rd editions should be redone first. I don't care what order, just they shoud have priority. I heard a Chaos player complaining that Chaos needed a new Codex because of the new space marines dex. Sometimes I wonder if GW forgot about the Inquisition as a whole......

 

Well, there are some factions that need it even more than we do. Space Wolves, Dark Eldar and Necrons I would happily step aside for. The Chaos complaint comes from GW making such a dumbed-down botch job of the new Chaos Codex.

 

 

Oh absolutely. That's what I meant as in "don't care what order." And actually, GW is on the move in created models for Dark Eldar, so they are next after IG (which, I believe, is almost no doubt at this point). But on the topic of space marines, SM don't really consider themselves a part of the "Imperium" and they also do not view the Emperor as a God, merely an extraoardinary man. They will agree to work with the Inquisiton (Blood Debt comes to mind) but are in no way shape or form under Inquisitorial Control, hence "Allied" Space Marines and "Inducted" Imperial Guard.

[boreas]

As much as I hate to say it, taking Inquisitors aways from WH/DH to put them into IG makes sense. I hate it because I love my inquisitorial retinue and having assassins in my WH/DH armies. But adding the Inquisitors, IST, assassins and allies makes the codexes messy.

 

I think the best move for GW would be to make Codex: Witch Hunters with sisters and ecclesiastic units and Codex: Daemonhuters with pure GKs. Add some units to both, take allies away (to many problems/complaints, etc), adjust unit costs, make some plastics for actual units and put some new minies for new units.

 

As for the Inquisitors, they will probably be into the Codex: IG as some advisors. I wonder where assassins will go. One thing seems to be on the horizon, though: Inquisitors won't be as present in WH40k as they are now...

 

Phil