[Daemon review] Troops.

[Captain Malachi]

Well, now we're done with the elites, we can move on to the troops, I'm just off to bed so I'll leave it up to you guys for a bit.

 

Anyway, bloodletters are up first, shouldn't be too hard.

[Raptor1313]

Bloodletters...

 

Not hard at all. WS5, S4, I4, 2 attacks base, power weapons. Pros? If they can touch it in melee, they'll kill it, especially with the charge. Three S5, I5, WS5 attacks on the charge? We're talking power similar to a marine HQ or other high-end melee type of troop. On the charge, these guys can think about trying to wax T5-6 targets. A unit of ten of these guys WILL whipe those feared TH/SS termies on the charge. (30 attacks, 20 hits, ~15 wounds vs 3+ invlunerables = 5 dead TH/SS termies, which is usually what you see them in.).

 

The downside?

Slow. They move 6", and have no Fleet. They will not get into combat quickly. They very well might not get the charge, but most people would rather rapid-fire into them than tap pistols and charge in.

 

They are ALSO dependent on cover or distractions. T4, 5+ saves in the open? At least they get that 5+ all the time.

 

Ultimately, the unit suffers from their fearsome reputation. If you are going to bring these, bring a LOT.

 

Additionally, if you want slow power weapons, for just under 3 of these guys you can get a Bloodcrusher. 2 T5 wounds with a 3+/5+ vs. 3 T4, 5+ (4+ w/ cover) wounds. Same speed, better power weapons, better durability.

 

I just feel like if you're going to take Bloodletters, take a LOT of them. They'll come down, get shot up. They'll move, maybe charge, and probably kill whatever they hit. Then, they'll get shot up more.

 

If you want troops that survive, I'm not sure Bloodletters are where its at. If you want to take 'em, take 'em en mass. I'm not sure I'd try to hide an icon in here, either, unless we're talking a large unit. Why? Someone will open fire on them. If they manage to put a wound on the icon-bearer, there's a 50-66% chance you'll lose your icon. If you want to use them but not in numbers, bring some things that are scarier-looking.

 

I like the models, but if I want slow power weapons in my army, I'll take Bloodcrushers. Still vulnerable to dreads, but I'd rather get my guys into the fight and take as much fear factor as possible.

[DuskRaider]

Ahh, Bloodletters. For a devoted Nurgle player to build a Daemon army centered around these guys, let alone Khorne, you know they have to be awesome.

 

These have to be hands down the best assault troop in 40k, if there's a better one I have yet to see it. They all have power weapons, a good WS & Initiative. They have Furious Charge, giving you a S5 (thanks for the correction Raptor!) on charges, so they can drive it home. Really, I feel confident that when I DS a unit of Bloodletters, they WILL make their points back easily.

 

I regularly use 2 - 3 units of Bloodletters in any given army, mainly because they are great at sweeping the board clean. The thing is, you need to make sure you bring proper numbers and bring them in to get to melee fast. I know some people tend to use cover and such, but I feel much more confident that if I drop a group of 10 Bloodletters close to an enemy unit, they may take out some, but even a unit of 5 Bloodletters SHOULD take out a group of 10 MEQ on a charge.

 

The bad side to them is, you cannot rely on them for really anything other then assault. Don't drop a unit of Bloodletters on an objective and expect them to hold it, because they won't. They may be able to survive a round of enemy fire, but that's really about it. As I said before, I prefer to use mine as sweepers... drop them in areas where enemies are either harassing you or holed up in a building and let them take out the opposition to allow your other troops (read: Plaguebearers) to take objectives.

 

No, they're not as fast as Daemonettes. No, they're not as resilient as Plaguebearers. But they are amazing at their main task... absolute slaughter. So crank up that Debauchery album, drop down some of Khorne's children, and let them kill your friend's (Insert Army Here).

[Raptor1313]

@Duskraider

Letters are S4 base, S5 on the Furious Charge.

 

The biggest problem Bloodletters have, though, is dealing with mechanized troops. You can utterly eradicate whatever's inside the transport without much question. However, it's GETTING to the meat inside.

 

What's your experience with them vs. mechanized enemies? How do you get the meat out of the Rhino or Wave Serpent? It's a bit of an army-building question, but our options are somewhat limited unless we want to do it with a hand-held can opener. On the bright side, massed S5 hits to the rear are at least passable on a vehicle.

 

I'm kind of surprised that a unit of just 10 bloodletters is only taking 50% casualties in the open. What kind of armies do you play against that can't nail 10 T4, 5+ save guys in one round of shooting? Ten guys with a 5+ save is 15 wounds on the unit.

 

If folks are taking static gunlines without Mystics, I can see 'letters doing more, but I'd honestly rather pay the points for Bloodcrushers.

[DuskRaider]

I usually just assault the tank if my Soul Grinder, DPs or Bloodthirster is otherwise unavailable. I find with a unit of 10+ Bloodletters, it's just a matter of time before I score a good hit on it.

 

I regularly play Tau and Space Marines. Maybe the Gods are on my side... but I lose 50% or less in the open, and I usually take the risk of DS close to my enemy to only give him one solid round of ranged before I'm on him.

[Raptor1313]

Well, with other targets, I can see 50% or less casualties.

 

Though most of hte time, I'm worried about cracking open the tank, and dealing with what's inside. A unit of marines rapid-firing into the 'letters (unless you can focus TWO bloodletters into a transport such that one can try to KO the tank and the other, the unit inside).

 

Let's say it's a basic 10-man marine unit with sarge, a flamer, and a missile launcher. They'll kick off 8 rapid-firing bolters, a flamer, and a pistol from the dude with the heavy weapon. Figure a good 6-8 guys from the flamer for a total of 11.22 S4 hits. 5.61 wounds, 3.74 dead.

 

Ok, probably not as bad as I thought unless there's backup nearby.

 

I guess I'd have to amend my statement to 'either back them up or they gonna die', and at the end of the day, they're expendable troops.

 

But, if they're expendable, then occupying the 'troops' slot is irrelevant, isn't it? So, since scoring with 'letters isn't an issue, then maybe you can look at the Elites.

 

I guess that's what I'm not much into 'letters.

[Wing_Knight]

one thing to consider is that while they may be expendable troops one reason for me at least to take bloodletters over crushers is that most (by most i mean all i have seen after 5th ed) of the tournaments i play in elite choices are 2 kill points vs troops being 1. If you happen to have fateweaver near by they are decently survivable, score, can kill, and if you take them in squads of 14-15 they survive decently on their own anyway just by the fact they can afford to loss a few guys before hitting CC. Granted i havnt seen super gun line lists where i live Guard is not very popular (yet) and tau is much more mobile then gunline like.

[Raptor1313]

@Wing Knight

 

Weight KP totally changes the way the game's played. You're less likely to take elites in general, as a result. I think that's not necessarily a fair way to play the game, as it gimps armies. It's the kind of thing I'd like to know before I go into a tourney, as that might change the way I roll.

 

Fateweaver next to anything beefs up its durability. I'll guarantee you that T5 with 3+/5+ is more durable than a heap of T4 with 5+.

[Wing_Knight]

True but weighted KP is about all i see if i am playing seriously and your right about fateweaver i guess i still like letters because they are troops so in the off chance they survive that might be able to take an objective. That and crushers are very expensive $ wise while letters are $18 a box on ebay... heh they also are in my opinion the best troop choice if you want to kill anything, though granted you don't necessarily need your troops to kill things if you are maxing out on elites etc.

[==Me==]

Weighted KP isn't very widely used so I don't think it bears much relevance to a general guide.

 

I'm going to second what Raptor said about Bloodletters. They hit extremely hard, but are slow and none too resilient. They will draw a lot of attention and can be blown away by basic weaponry. Even then though, 6 Bloodletters charging will still seriously injure just about anything, getting 8 MEQ kills.

 

You have to use other units in conjunction with the Bletters to get the most out of them. Fiends in particular help alot, tying units down and bouncing away to hunt vehicles and faster units while the Bletters mop up.

[minigun762]

I think Bloodletters are one of the 2 standard choices for Daemon troops, the other being PlagueBearers.

 

They're killy, somewhat durable and effective against most targets that aren't AV11 or better.

 

As for the 'Crusher vs "Letter thing, to me it comes down to scoring units. I could spend 160 points on 4 'Crusher or 10 'Letters and against most targets they're probably about as killy as each other. If your army needs scoring units, go with 'Letters, if not, 'Crushers are probably better.

 

Personally, I'd spam Bloodletters and leave the Bloodcrushers at home, as I like troop heavy armies.

 

Don't forget that they can handle more armor pretty well since they're S5 on the charge, that means they're penetrating AV10. Fast movers and skimmers are their bane, but those things are the bane of all Daemons outside of Tzeentchian DPs, Heralds and Soulgrinders.

[Raptor1313]

@==Me==

8MEQ kills is impressive, but wiping out 8 orks out of a large mob still loses you the 'letters, and that kind of carnage on Guard or Tau or the like involves being out in the open next turn...

 

I do agree on the weight KP thing. I don't see it where I am, and it's not necessarily a widespread thing. It's something of an artificial limitation on the game.

 

@Minigun

I'll agree with PBs being a standard troop choice, but I'd rather take Horrors as my other standard troop choice.

 

The big difference I see between 4 crushers (which, in reality, should be taking an instrument and Fury of Khorne to play wound allocation games) is the durability. I mean, when I'm throwing melee troops at the enemy, I fully expect a lot of them to come back to the Warp in body bags.

 

I'm also a bit iffy about trying to go 'horde' with a trooper that costs 16 a head. I think that's a bit of a weakness of our codex, though, in that so many of our troops NEED to be taken en masse but they cost so #$@ing much per head.

[Vassakov]

Personally I see Bloodletters as a Catch-22 unit for the enemy, especially with the preponderance of HW's now based in Troops squads. If you include a unit of 10-12 in each wave, then make sure that there are fiends/flamers/crushers/MC's in the waves as well - where's your opponent going to shoot.

 

Use them agressively, and ensure the opponent has multiple targets to fire at. And don't get them to objective watch normally, use them to force a breach in your opponents lines, then drops Horrors/Plaguebearers there to hold them.

[==Me==]

I was more referring to the carnage that even a decimated unit (6 out of 10 or 15) can cause, making them a priority target.

[Captain Malachi]

:) I thought this was gonna be a quick discussion. I'll post up the entry later on this evening.

[DuskRaider]

Vass has the right idea. If I drop down 2 units of 10 Bloodletters, a Bloodthirster, 2 DPs and a unit of 4 Bloodcrushers, what are you going to worry about more? More often then not, I find my opponents tend to judge their priority based on the actual model. "Cripes, that Bloodthirster is a foot tall! I better kill it quick!" whilst my 20 or so Bloodletters will probably kill more in a round then my Bloodthirster (just due to squad size).

 

That's the redeeming quality of playing Daemons, and they're quickly becoming my main army (sorry Death Guard!). They have weaknesses and a lot of risks involved, but there's just so many hard hitting troops and such that they more then make up for their short comings.

 

I'll be sitting back now until Plaguebearers are discussed.

[Captain Malachi]

Bloodletters:

These guys are our primary assault troops. With a decent strength, good weapon skill and power weapons, coupled with furious charge, they will basically kill anything they can catch in combat, except dreadnoughts. They’re even good at hunting those nasty thunder hammer terminators you see so much these days.

 

However, they have a rubbish save and only toughness four to protect them. This means that they are heavily reliant on cover to stay alive during that trek to the enemy. The fact that they’re slow doesn’t help. You will be taking a good few casualties on the first turn drop, so make sure you have numbers on your side. Thankfully, even a weakened squad is a serious threat to most units. If you want troops that will survive, or hold an objective, look elsewhere.

 

How's that?

[Vassakov]

Personally, I don't agree with some of that. They are a solid option for assault, but only really against MEq's - hordes will laugh off the Power Weapon attacks, and then eat through T4/5++ easily. They don't really have the attacks to dent bigger units at reduced strength - which is what they will be. You can't guarantee getting more than 6 in against a competant opponent. Vs MEq's, that's 8 dead which is good, but Vs Orks it's unlikely to scare them. Also, off the charge they are mediocore at best. I think more than perhaps any other unit in the Daemons Dex, they need some kind of support or distraction to achieve their full potential. Without it, they're a sitting duck lacking the speed of Slanneshi Units (such as a large unit of 'Nettes) the flexiblity of Tzeenctch Units or the resiliance of Nurgle.

 

Basically, 'Letters are fodder. Extremely nasty fodder, but fodder none the less.

[minigun762]

Personally, I don't agree with some of that. They are a solid option for assault, but only really against MEq's - hordes will laugh off the Power Weapon attacks, and then eat through T4/5++ easily.

 

And I don't quite agree with Vass's disagreement :P (Sorry Vassakov!)

 

We ran the numbers earlier and Bloodletters are the most killy of all the basic troops in close combat. The Power Weapons is the most obvious bonus but remember you're also getting WS5 and S4/5. The only other choice for an assault trooper is Daemonettes and they're weaker against GEQ and MEQ and might have a slight advantage against Orks depending on if they can get the charge in.

 

I think it depends on if we're going to compare troops to troops, or troops to the other FOC choices.

 

Troop to troop, Bloodletters are the premier assault unit, however compared to other choices they are not quite as killy as we'd like.

[Captain Malachi]

I'll edit and post up a new version in a little bit.

[Raptor1313]

I submit that also vs. Mechanized hordes (IE: orks) you're not getting the charge. A troop that moves 6" + d6 run gets to charge something that's not interested in CC anyway.

 

Here's what it looks like when you get charged by a Trukk of orks:

Nob w/ PK (4 attacks) and 11 Boyz w/ Slugga/Choppa (4 attacks each for 44)

10 Bloodletters: 20 attacks. 13.3 hits. 6.67 dead orks. Say, 7

 

That leaves the PK Nob and four Boyz.

Boyz swing 4x4=16 times, hit 8 times, wound 4 times. Nob swings 4x, hits 2x, wounds 2x. 6 wounds.

5 dead 'letters.

 

Orks lose by 2, might have to Bosspole them back into line when they fail the morale check.

 

Now, if it's a Pair of Trukks, or a Battlewagon of 19+Nob? You lose. 7 dead Orks means 12 orks + PK Nob, which means 48 attacks, which means 24 hits and 12 wounds. That's 8 dead letters, and another 1-2 from the PK on average.

 

Vs Genestealers (average unit of 8. WS6, I6, S4.)

W/o feeder tendrils: 24 attacks > 16 hits > 8 wounds > 5.33 dead 'letters.

the average 5 letters left get 10 attacks, hit 5, kill 2.5 stealers. Letters lose.

 

W/ Feeder tendrils: 24 attacks > 20 hits > 10 wounds > 6.67 dead 'letters

The average 3 left swing 6x > hit 3x > kill 1.5 stealers

 

Vs. Harlequins (which will also get the charge)

say 8 Harlies, all rending. Each good for four WS5, I7, S4 attacks.

32 attacks > 16 hits > 8 wounds > 5.33 dead 'letters

5 letters swing 10 > hit 5 > wound 2.5 > kill 1.6 Harlies

 

I mean, 'letters do fine when charging something that doesn't want to be in melee, but if something ELSE wants to charge them, a lot of the melee troops in the game will do a fine job of maiming them up. Without Furious Charge, they're a bit less scarier because they ARE crunchy.

 

They're the most killy melee troop we have (...to be honest, Daemonettes are the only competition they've GOT, though, for troop slots). 'nettes rely on rending, which means the dice can flip you off hardcore.

 

If you want to bring a heap of melee troops in, though, letters let you do it. I just dispute the viability of this tactic vs. other melee troops we're likely to see. Unless you bring a LOT of bloodletters and are really good at getting the charge with something slow vs. slightly-faster troops, then you're not in good shape.

[Captain Malachi]

Bloodletters:

These guys are our primary assault troops. With a decent strength, good weapon skill and power weapons, coupled with furious charge, they will basically kill anything they can catch in combat, except dreadnoughts. They’re even good at hunting those nasty thunder hammer terminators you see so much these days. Just be wary of hordes, they don’t have the attacks to kill enough of them in a lot of cases.

 

However, they have a rubbish save and only toughness four to protect them. This means that they are heavily reliant on cover to stay alive during that trek to the enemy. The fact that they’re slow doesn’t help. You will be taking a good few casualties on the first turn drop, so make sure you have numbers on your side. Thankfully, even a weakened squad is a serious threat to most units. If you want troops that will survive, or hold an objective, look elsewhere. Also remember that without the charge bloodletters are a lot less powerful, and it isn’t hard for the enemy to take the charge away.

[Raptor1313]

Looks good to me, save for one thing.

 

I'd note that unless it's a horde choice, a weakened squad is still a threat. Even a depleted unit of 4-5 still threaten Terminators and stuff that relies on an armor save, but a horde just laughs and pounds face, unless it's a high-invulnerable-save unit.

[Vassakov]

Raptors hit the nail on the head. Bloodletters, whilst being generally fairly lethal do not want to go up against the sorts of units mentioned - big Ork/Gaunt mobs, High I units or mobile assualt armies. There, they get crunched. Compared to the other Troops, they're great for CC chopping. But you cannot rely on Power Weapons, even at S4 I4 and WS5 vs anything except MEq, Guard, Tau and Necrons. Most other armies can pull out a decent counter. I'm trying to emphasise the synergy required of them.

[Captain Malachi]

Bloodletters:

These guys are our primary assault troops. With a decent strength, good weapon skill and power weapons, coupled with furious charge, they will basically kill anything they can catch in combat, except dreadnoughts. They’re even good at hunting those nasty thunder hammer terminators you see so much these days. Just be wary of hordes, they don’t have the attacks to kill enough of them in a lot of cases.

 

However, they have a rubbish save and only toughness four to protect them. This means that they are heavily reliant on cover to stay alive during that trek to the enemy. The fact that they’re slow doesn’t help. You will be taking a good few casualties on the first turn drop, so make sure you have numbers on your side. Thankfully, even a weakened squad is a serious threat to most units. If you want troops that will survive, or hold an objective, look elsewhere. Also remember that without the charge bloodletters are a lot less powerful, and it isn’t hard for the enemy to take the charge away.

 

Raptor, I did mention that. Unless your point was to mention that this is not true against hordes, in which I think we've made it clear enough that hordes = bad.