[Daemon review] Troops.

[minigun762]

I'll buy that, so whats next?

[Captain Malachi]

I just wanna make sure I understood Raptor right. When he's confirmed that we'll do plaguebearers I think, they should be fairly easy. Of course I said that about the bloodletters and it's taken a whole page.

[minigun762]

Plaguebearers ARE easy though.

 

2 words, objective campers.

 

They're useless at anything else pretty much, but they fulfil the role of scoring unit perfectly.

[==Me==]

Plaguebearers = objective cappers and good for padding your waves out. Multiple units of 5 let you bring in more stuff in the preferred wave and can still hold their own for a while, especially in cover.

[DuskRaider]

I think if used correctly, Plaguebearers can be used for more then just objective holding. They can take a lot more punishment, and I look at them as the anvil to my Bloodletter's hammer. If placed in the right army, that is, Epidemius, a Great Unclean One, and 2 Nurgle Daemon Princes... the Plaguebearers can really do some damage. However, I will agree that they are perfect for holding an objective. Hard to displace and can be impossible to to uproot in close combat (read: VERY hard).

 

It's true that I would NOT take a huge abundance. I usually prefer 2 squads of 10 in unison with 2 - 3 squads of 15 Bloodletters. I drop my 2 squads in first wave as Icon bearers and to soak fire and get my enemy's attention. From there, it all depends on where my enemy place himself.

[Raptor1313]

minor brain fartage....was looking over the edits while hacking at a small mountain of paperwork.

 

I'm down with the BL entry.

 

As for Plaguebeaeres....

Pretty much agree. They're objective campers, and no more. MAYBE in numbers, WITH a good Tally up, they're passable in melee. (like, 10-15 or better).

 

that aside, take 8-10 or so as objective-campers. Unless the other guy brings power weapons AP1-2 weapons....Goin' nowhere.

 

They Go to Ground and are about as durable as plague marines without shooting.

 

I really don't see another way to use 'em.

[Vassakov]

They have no use beyond Objective Campers - almost anything else in the army will outshine them at any other role.

 

Drop them on an objective, with an icon, and laugh.

[Evil Homer]

my question about plaguebearers is this: Do they have an offensive role in an all Nurgle army, given that the Tally will rise or are nurglings a better offensive unit in the same list design?

[==Me==]

Nope, Nurglings and Beasts are much better. PBs don't dish out enough attacks and have a poor WS/I to go with it.

[minigun762]

my question about plaguebearers is this: Do they have an offensive role in an all Nurgle army, given that the Tally will rise or are nurglings a better offensive unit in the same list design?

 

Can they be used? Of course, they'll still gain the Tally's bonuses.

 

Should they be used? I'd say no, unless it was tactically prudent at the time.

 

A Tallylist is much better off going with some combination of Beasts and Nurglings, both who are non-scoring and allowing their Plaguebearers to camp objectives. The upside for the PB's is that when they do get attacked, they'll be more of a threat.

But a mono-Nurgle list has better offensive units then PB and a multi-god army has MUCH more choices.

 

Other then camping objectives, PB can be used as a tarpit unit but the issue there is getting a S&P unit into HtH combat with something. Difficult to say the least.

[Captain Malachi]

Yeah, nurglings are better. Anyway, I'm just off out for an hour or so, so I'll post something up when I get back.

[Raptor1313]

Vassakov made a good point, though. If you are going to use icons on your troops, take Plaguebeaeres. Even with a smaller unit and getting to actually wound the Icon-bearer, after a 5+ and FNP there's a 33% chance you'll lose the Icon. Compared to the 50-66% chance with other troops (or other troops in cover) I think it's worth mentioning.

 

in an Tally list...I think much of the Tally discussion should probably take place in the Army Section.

 

My 0.02 credits on PBs in a Tally Army:

take 2-3 hefty units (10-12 or so) with Icons. They are where you hide Epedemius and what you claim objectives with.

[Captain Malachi]

Plaguebearers:

Two words: Objective campers. These guys really do excel at holding objectives and just plain surviving, something our other troops choices lack. Toughness five with feel no pain makes them very hard to kill. If your opponent spams plasma or is able to get lots of power weapons in to combat with them you may be in trouble, but otherwise you can usually rely on them to live through the game.

 

However, don’t expect them to do any real damage, you might get lucky and kill a few models, but with a low weapon skill, initiative and only a single attack each, they have little in the way of killing power, plagueswords help but not by much. You can stick with smaller units with these guys thanks to their resilience, either a few units of five or a couple of units of ten to twelve. Finally, note that these guys are a great places to put your icons, since in other places there’s a higher chance the icon bearer will die from first turn shooting.

 

How's that?

[minigun762]

Sounds fine to me. We said what they should and shouldn't be doing and why.

 

I admit that I forget they're a straight T5, not T4(5) so I think S8 will get through FnP

[==Me==]

Works for ==Me==

[Raptor1313]

Only thing I'd note, really. Or, perhaps clarify.

 

Icons in units of 10-12. If you're going to TAKE icons, that is. You want 10-12 just to make it that much harder to dig it out. A unit of 5-6 can still see the enemy put wounds on the Icon-bearer, and let's all be honest...if we brought Icons, we want to use them.

 

that aside, I agree with the entry. Plaguebeaeres are damned good at taking up space, and we actually NEED that in troops.

[Rahveel]

good stuff, looking forward to seeing the write-up on daemonettes. Ive been tossing around the idea of including a big unit or 2 in my currently mono-Tz army.

[Captain Malachi]

I added this to the end: it’s best to use slightly bigger units if you plan to take icons in them though.

 

I figured this is was easier than posting the whole thing again. Anyway, horrors now?

[Raptor1313]

I agree with the addition. Better than re-posting that, and all.

 

As for Horrors...

 

I am a fan of them, so long as there are other things on the table to draw fire. I believe Horrors firmly fall in the 'hold objective' territory. They're not BAD at shooting, but not good either. Units of 8-10 can crank out 24-30 S4, AP4 shots. This looks cooler 'til we realize they are BS3. Still, vs. T4 targets, a squad of 10 can drop about 7-8 wounds, which isn't too bad.

 

The other thing that draws me to horrors is that they can pick up Bolt of Tzeentch for 10 points. Bringing 2-4 units as troops means that you can torrent down infantry units, and be able to fire on armored threats. You won't bag a Land Raider, but 6" move + 24" shot is about as solid as it gets in this army (notwithstanding winged/chariot units with bolt.)

 

The downside? They're fragile. T3 and a 4+ save means that it's not very hard to take them out. If you deep-strike in near someone with a template weapon (IE: plasma cannons, grenade launchers, flamers...um, pretty much anything more substantial than a grenade launcher) you should spend that first turn running into a formation other than 'group hug of our death'.

 

Second? Melee. WS2, S3, I2-3 is not a melee stat line. Tau and Guard are the only folks we really stand a solid chance against in melee with that, and it's sadly pretty even there.

 

Since we're on horrors, I'll add in 0.02 on the Changeling, since I've been running him:

If you have 5 points to spare, he'll soak that. Otherwise? Don't make room for him. Most folks have a high enough leadership test to render him irrelevant. Still, if you've got 5 spare, you might as well take him if you're already taking horrors.

 

Overall, I like Horrors as troops choices becausei t's some actual shooting, and if there are scarier things on the board (IE: soul grinders, any non-beast-of-nurgle elite, monstrous creatures, or even other melee daemons) then Horrors will probably escape notice. They also give us the amazing ability to threaten tanks at range. I've been running either these guys or Plaguebearers for my scoring troops, and am currently a fan of Horrors as they tend to do more than take up space.

[Captain Malachi]

I find that, as long as you have some backup, they can be really useful for anti-horde as well. Let's say we have a unit of 20-30 orks, you have your ten horrors, and a unit of bloodletters or a prince or something nearby. You let off a torrent of warpfire, kill about 6-8 orks, you'll often get 2 turns of this too, and then your melee unit can go in and finish them off. Meanwhile your horrors are off shooting a second unit. They also often take out whole squads of guardsmen in one turn, wounding on 3's coupled with AP4 means lots of dead guardsmen. I do find they need to be part of a tag-team with a strong melee unit to get the most out of them though.

[minigun762]

Horrors are really good.

1) They're the 2nd most durable troop choice out there after PB's making them the 2nd best place for Icons

2) They provide ranged fire support in an army that is almost all assault oriented

3) They're strong enough to hurt most things, they're actually better at shooting than a rapid fire Marine with Bolter, which is saying alot.

4) They make a great kiting unit, 18" range on their guns means they can move, shoot and stay out of most units assault range with some luck.

5) They're a good source for ranged anti-tank, BS3 Bolt may not be super reliable, but with 2-4 such squads, you have a fairly decent alternative if you're fighting mechanized armies, where as S4 is fairly useless.

 

Overall I think they're the most underrated of the Daemon troops, people don't think of daemons and shooting.

[==Me==]

I'm just going to second what Raptor said as he beat ==Me== to it :P

 

Horrors are a nice shooty unit, objective capper, and can threaten vehicles in numbers. I've been fielding large units mostly, but multiple small units can work if you're short on anti-tank and need to pad out a wave with units.

 

Also, Horrors can screen for other units since they have a 4+ invulnerable anyway.

[Rahveel]

tossing in my $.02 on the changeling:

while certainly a fun option, I have yet to actually have the changeling manage to make the opponent shoot himself. however, I have found that my oponent has him in mind every time he shoots with the target unit, and tends to play a bit more cautiously with his shooting. I also face a lot of mystic/HB/psycannon =][= squads, and having changeling in my first wave presents many oportunities for me to make my opponent take lots of LD tests.

[Raptor1313]

I think the other boost to Horror survivability is that they're not in melee.

 

Our melee troops are T3/4 with a 5+. Unless you totally wipe out the other guy, you'll lose some in melee and lose some to shooting.

 

Horrors? You're not in melee, so the enemy has to shoot you, and if the enemy's shooting Horrors, either they're ignoring something else that's more threatening, or you're going to lose anyway.

 

Plus, move 'n' shoot. I'm rapidly becoming a fan of 'em, though the army setup I'm using them packs 2 Bloodthirsters, a Daemon Prince, 2 Soul Grinders, and a heap of bloodthirsters, so generally they're NOT shot at.

[Infidel]

Plaguebearers....

 

They work great in soaking up firepower. I've seen people DSing then next to an icon and then tie up an entire (some 20 strong squad) of orks for what seemed like an infinite amount of time. I think many others had covered it sufficiently enough, they function similar to CSM Plague Marines and I would absolutely love them if they can somehow throw their infested flesh at enemy like some weird 6' ap -poison weapon.

 

I've seen a somewhat interesting list involving tallyman, nurgle winged DP and Kugath. Jesus....when that necrotic missile hits home, it wasnt long till all nurglings and pbs become synonymous to putrid instant melee death.

 

In short, keep them in reserve and DS them into objectives as they come available. your opponents can either keep shooting the faster and more killy part of your forces and not be able to take the unit out of objective zone or waste a whole lot of dakka on the PBs and find daemonettes or letters breating down their neck.

 

For a daemon, it's a win-win situation.