[Daemon review] Troops.

[Infidel]

Oh :D, are we on horrors?

 

My 2 cents

 

3 shots 18" assault bolters are awesome but their BS often leaves me a feeling that they could have been so much more.

 

The bolt of tzeentch, sadly, in my experience misses more often than it hits, but i have been known to always kill something with it. popped a dread right open the turn i DSed and some times even mange to take out a couple of right'n'proper tanks. I guess the stat says it all, s8 ap 1 weapon is bound to hurt whatever it hits (AV14 not withstanding).

 

All and all, it's our only shooting troop choice and it does that bloody well. I like to take them in squads of 9 (fluff) and they're usually my icon bearers and my troop of choice for a turn 1 drop. They're also good at holding objectives and having icons mean that you can drop those letters (or in my case, netts) right around them ready for a counter-assault whenever they're called upon.

 

Changeling is cool, i have once managed to turn a squad of devastators on his own HQ, granted he wasnt too happy about that....

 

IMO, he's worth it just to give your opponent that "what-if" feel at the back of his head.

 

In sum, it's the only shooty troop choice we got but for that, Horrors are more than worth their salt. Drop them on an objective or behind enemy line and they sometimes can make the game feel like an early Christmas as long as you have a counter-assault ready. Their BS 3 can ruin your day when you find yourself missing more than you're hitting but in my experience, they're always guaranteed to earn their point back.

[Captain Malachi]

I just have three things to voice my opinion on (up 'til now I've been fairly quiet but from now on I'll be taking an active role in the discussions). 1) I find they're just too expensive for use as a shield (someone mentioned that tactic). 2) I'm not really bothered with bolt, I'll take it since it's so cheap, but I don't really expect to even use it in most games, I use my 5 MCs for tank hunting usually. 3) The Changeling I like, rarely do I get to make the other guy shoot his own unit, but even if he simply refuses to fire that's a win for me. More often though he'll take the test and occasionally I get to blast his unit, which is even better. It's the psychological aspect I find most useful, the other guy really does have to worry about it and it can change his battle plans, all for 5 points? Me like :o

 

 

Oh, I'll post an entry up later on.

[minigun762]

I think with Bolt and Changeling, you have to think of them as extra abilities for the squad, but they do not define the squad.

 

The squad is geared for medium-short range anti-infantry fire support.

Bolt gives you some anti-tank and Changeling gives them some "messing with" ability but it doesn't change what they are normally

 

EDIT: I guess my point is that I'd never take a Horror squad just for Changeling or Bolt.

[Captain Malachi]

Here you go, it's a little longer than the others but that's just because I separated the Changelings bit since he's like a mini-character.

 

Horrors:

As our only ranged troops, these guys are pretty useful. Warpfire has enough AP to break through anything short of power armour, and is strong enough to wound most basic troops on either 3’s or 4’s. It also has a lot of shots, meaning that even a small unit of ten horrors can pump out enough shots to do some serious damage to a lot of units. You need to remember though, that horrors are for light/medium infantry hunting, not heavy infantry or tank hunting.

 

However, they can take bolt of Tzeentch to give them some anti-tank ability, just don’t rely on it, you’ll only hit half the time and you won’t be making good use of those warpfire horrors. It is usually a good idea to pick it up though, just for the option. They’re also our most expensive infantry, which isn’t great but the range firepower makes up for it. Thankfully, they’re also our second most survivable troops (after plaguebearers), making them a good place for icons. Also note that when you deep strike them, if there are blast/large blast weapons nearby, run them to spread out rather than shooting. Sitting in a big circle when you’re staring down the barrel of a demolisher cannon is rarely a smart thing to do.

 

The Changeling: This guy is pretty nice for the cost. For only five points you get a chance, albeit often a small one, to make your enemy shoot one of his own units. Even if it doesn’t result in you actually getting to redirect his fire, the psychological effect can be useful too, your enemy always has to worry about the Changeling.

 

Note: There is some rules contention as to how many units you can affect each turn, in friendly games it’s best to stick to one (or whatever your gaming group agrees on), in tournaments you should call ahead and check their ruling on it.

[Raptor1313]

Call me signed off on the entry.

[Vassakov]

Damn... managed to miss this one. Which considering I run Tzeentch/Khorne is mildly embarrassing...

 

Anyone, I can't add anything to it. And now, 'Nettes. Hate them, to be honest.

[Infidel]

Daemonettes, these little lovlies form the back bone of my army and I had used them to great effect in the past.

 

Netts have: Defensive/Offensive Grenades, Fleet, Rend, I6, 3A, 5++ and special upgrade that make an enemy unit lose 1 attack

 

What are they geared towards? They almost always hit first and rends. They'll in theory do better than Letters in 2 scenarios: 1. charging stuff in cover and 2. surviving charges. However, since everyone had done some very nice mathhammer we could see that's not the case. Due to higher T, the letters often survive the initial onslaught and when they hit back, god do they make the enemy feel it. When you get right down to it, 3 WS4 S3 attacks just arnt that much and you cant rely on the rending rolls. The letters hit more often due to WS, do more damage due to PW and 4S, furious charge which means they murder all MEQs and even better against squishy stuff.

 

Letters > Netts in killing everything that is less than T6. Period, squad size dont matter, squishiness dont matter, letter maims and netts caresses.

 

So what cant letters do that netts can?

 

High T stuff with focus on armour saves. Give em Transfixing gaze and then send them Fex-hunting. Against S8+ MC attacks T3 or T4 doesnt make a difference and a letter

will have trouble hurting them if they dont take it down on the first assault. Once my squad of 10 odd netts got charged by a clawfex and took it out for no losses in return. Send them against stuff that hits hard (MCs, Fists etc) and relies primarily on armour and save to survive and they'll do so well you wont believe it.

 

Due to their high I they almost always wipe out any squad that breaks, i found them to be particularly when sent against those chaos terminators with PF.

 

Target of choice: CC monsters with high S, high T and doesnt have stupid invul saves like hammernators. Wraithlords, Termies, other GDs, any Nid MC, Big spiky orks...dreads if you really want to push it

 

In my army however, i'm thinking of phasing the netts out gradually in favour of fiends. anything a nett can do they can do better and i'd rather spend my troop slot on something that survives but can do some hurting when called for, ahem, horrors.

[minigun762]

In my army however, i'm thinking of phasing the netts out gradually in favour of fiends. anything a nett can do they can do better and i'd rather spend my troop slot on something that survives but can do some hurting when called for, ahem, horrors.

 

This is the same issue we had with Bloodcrushers vs Bloodletters. Point for point, a 'Crusher is superior to a 'Letter. The key difference is one is scoring and one isn't.

 

Now in a mixed god list this could be easily remedied, but if you're playing a mono god list, you'll have to use the troops regardless of if something is better.

 

Daemonettes are the weakest of all the troops in durability, but they're far and away the fastest and thats a big bonus. You need bigger squads with them, so like Fiends its usually safer to deepstrike them somewhere safe and make a dash for it, instead of risking their drop site. Even though Bloodletters are more killy, these girls are still pretty good on their own and they do have the bonus of going first against almost everything. They're particulary useful against small squads where they can kill them all before they get a chance to swing, targets like Devastators, Dark Reapers, Lootas, even Sternguard and non-TH/SS Terminators all work out well.

 

Against a big shooting army it might be worth it to run them through cover, it slows them down a bit, but they'll atleast gain a 4+ cover save so it might be worth it.

[Captain Malachi]

I think daemonettes need a little more thought in their use than bloodletters. Bloodletters you can often just drop and hope for the best, but as we all know 'nettes are far to fragile for that. But, put them in your second wave, tie some squads up, and send them in to finish them off and you should have done some serious damage with little casualties in return.

 

Otherwise I agree with what's been posted above and I'll write something up for them later.

 

Oh, I don't think the transfixing gaze upgrade is worth it though, 5 points for the changeling or blessing is a good deal, 5 points to make one opponent lose a single attack? Not so much. To be honest I don't tend to give these gals any upgrades at all, too fragile for icons and instruments are rubbish, especially on a CC unit like these.

[sexiest_hero]

I use nettes against horde armies. I good size squad will drop any unit of ork or tyranid be it nob biker or Hive tirant and you can be sure you will come out on top. There is the myth that Nettes suck, and you can set them up to get charged by something nasty, then have them take the charge and win. Another plus is with fleet and grenades you get units in cover that your blood letters might miss. These ladies can go toe to toe with genestealers and harlies and hold there own and they can knock down a Tyrant before it can get one attack off. Gaze has the unique ability to be able to take a foe down to 0 attacks. You don't know the joys of slaanesh till you zoom a unit of daemonettes with a herald into a fex, dread or PF champ, and giggle with glee while they shake their groove thing and you rend them apart peice by gory peice. If you are using the ping pong tactic, you can drain a big target's attacks and use it to spring other units off of. And unlike blood letters they are simply too fast to get away from. All in all If you need Mc killing, Horde killing, cover assaults, a Unit to pin down something, for something fastenough to be where you need them, nettes fit the bill.

[==Me==]

Daemonettes have fleet, I6, rending and grenades. That's great until you see T3, 5+ invulnerable and a fairly steep cost. They are simply too easy to gun down.

 

You have to use lots, but definitely drop them in cover or out of sight and use your speed to close. They can go after enemies in cover and will strike simultaneously with Genestealers, use them to draw problem units out.

 

I don't use Daemonettes much, as I'd consider them the weakest Troops choice, but when I do it's in large units tromping through cover to get entrenched enemies dislodged or going after MCs.

[Captain Malachi]

I use nettes against horde armies. I good size squad will drop any unit of ork or tyranid be it nob biker or Hive tirant and you can be sure you will come out on top. There is the myth that Nettes suck, and you can set them up to get charged by something nasty, then have them take the charge and win. Another plus is with fleet and grenades you get units in cover that your blood letters might miss. These ladies can go toe to toe with genestealers and harlies and hold there own and they can knock down a Tyrant before it can get one attack off. Gaze has the unique ability to be able to take a foe down to 0 attacks. You don't know the joys of slaanesh till you zoom a unit of daemonettes with a herald into a fex, dread or PF champ, and giggle with glee while they shake their groove thing and you rend them apart peice by gory peice. If you are using the ping pong tactic, you can drain a big target's attacks and use it to spring other units off of. And unlike blood letters they are simply too fast to get away from. All in all If you need Mc killing, Horde killing, cover assaults, a Unit to pin down something, for something fastenough to be where you need them, nettes fit the bill.

'Nettes don't have musk, so you can't do that. Not legally anyway.

[Captain Malachi]

Sorry for double post, but I wrote their entry up.

 

Daemonettes:

These gals are both our cheapest and fastest troops, as well as having the most basic attacks highest initiative. They also come with grenades standard making them good for charging through cover. They have rending, so can be used for tank busting in an emergency, just don’t try and bust land raiders or monoliths with them. They also make good monster hunters, big things have high enough strength that their low toughness doesn’t matter and all that rending should get you few wounds.

 

However, against just about any troops choice bloodletters will outkill daemonettes, their superior strength, weapon skill and power weapons just makes them better for the points. So if you take daemonettes make sure you use them wisely, they won’t survive any kind of enemy fire, so use cover to your advantage, and try and make other things appear more dangerous so they don’t get shot. As for the upgrades, generally don’t bother, gaze can be useful if you focus on monstrous creatures, but they are too fragile for icons and it’s unlikely they’ll draw a fight so instruments are wasted.

[minigun762]

Some minor grammar stuff

having the most basic attacks highest initiative

Was there supposed to be an "and" in there?

 

So if you take daemonettes make sure you use them wisely, they won’t survive any kind of enemy fire, so use cover to your advantage, and try and make other things appear more dangerous so they don’t get shot

I'd specifically mention that their greatest strength is their speed, Fleeting into combat is their best defense as they're slighty harder to kill in close combat thanks to them going first always. Also as they are the most fragile and cheapest, you need to make the squads larger to get the full effect from them. Where as a Bloodletter squad could be 8-10, I'd consider it appropriate to make a Daemonette squad 10-14 in size.

[Infidel]

I think it's important to note that the netts should be used in overwhelming force or dont use them at all.

 

When we're comparing Netts, there's no point in comparing a force of 10 daemonettes to 16 orks because that's not them in their most effective application. The orks are gonna hit back and hurt the netts.

 

Instead, let's consider a force of 20 netts against 2 squads of 16 orks and use their maneuverability to only engage one squad at at time. This time, for the same point cost, the netts will fair so much better.

[Evil Homer]

I think it might be worth mentioning their additional usefulness in a Skarbrand build. Skarbrand likes high I partners and Deamonettes fit the bill nicely.

[Infidel]

Skarbrand make an army that's already great at assault better, but to be honest, i dont think that justifies the investment. Sure Skarbrand works great with Seekers or Fiends, but I really dont feel building an army around him is a sound option. An army need durability, it needs to be versatile and a one-trick pony that answers everything with assault just dont rub me the right way.

[==Me==]

Daemons are an assault army at heart, so Skarbrand is a very handy upgrade.

 

I wouldn't include his bit in the Daemonette entry though, it's fine in the Skarbrand blurb. We'll get to specific builds later on.

[sexiest_hero]

when I memtioned the ping pong, it was more that the Nettes could hold something inplace till a keeper or fiends hit it. Should have been more clear.

[Infidel]

I still feel that assault is best done by the DPs, GDs, Elites and Fast attacks. Many times did i find myself drawing or losing because i dont have the troops (or not enough) to claim the objectives.

 

Crushers > letters, Fiends > Netts. I know they're good, but the elite option is just better. The MCs move through cover and Fiend/Seekers are cavalry movement. If they cant reach something, then the netts wont either. 14 points per head is not really that cheap, I wouldn't throw netts at same point cost squad of boys of kroots, and they come cheaper.

[Captain Malachi]

This better?

 

Daemonettes:

These gals are both our cheapest and fastest troops, as well as having the most basic attacks and highest initiative. They also come with grenades standard making them good for charging through cover. They have rending, so can be used for tank busting in an emergency, just don’t try and bust land raiders or monoliths with them. They also make good monster hunters, big things have high enough strength that their low toughness doesn’t matter and all that rending should get you few wounds.

 

However, against just about any troops choice bloodletters will out kill daemonettes, their superior strength, weapon skill and power weapons just makes them better for the points. So if you take daemonettes make sure you use them wisely, they won’t survive any kind of enemy fire, so use cover to your advantage, and try and make other things appear more dangerous so they don’t get shot. Their main strength is their speed, so make sure you make the most of it. As for the upgrades, generally don’t bother, gaze can be useful if you focus on monstrous creatures, but they are too fragile for icons and it’s unlikely they’ll draw a fight so instruments are wasted. Due to their fragility, it’s recommended that you take larger squads of daemonettes, we find 14+ to be best.

[minigun762]

I like it

[Raptor1313]

I take a few days off...;)

 

In general, though, I'm with the consensus.

 

'nettes need to be used in MASSIVE numbers.

 

Let's take the average bolter-marine squad rapid-firing into them. 8 bolters, a pistol from the heavy weapon guy, and say ~3 hits from a flamer. That's about 14-15 S4 hits. IF you're not in cover, that's about 8 dead 'nettes. So, we've established that it's not hard to kill 'em.

 

I think that to get the MOST out of them, you HAVE to bring them in the absurd numbers (14+) mentioned. But, 14 gals at 14 points is a 196pt unit that drops in, gets shot up, might get to assault ,and the gets shot to death most of the time. What did it do? Maybe take out a sacrificial unit.

 

They CANNOT reliably deal with tanks, either. They need 6's on amror penetration, THEN 4+ on the rending dice to pen a vehicle. They just don't have the numbers and strength. They can kind of kill troops, but are heavily reliant on the rend to do so. They wound most basic troops 1/3 of the time.

 

WS4 is also fairly crappy for a melee troop. It's hit-on-4's vs anything but a melee specialist troop. Even against a horde troop like orks....let's take an easy matchup like Trukk Mob vs. 14 'nettes.

 

Mob gets out. Pops 12 pistol shots. 4 hit; 2.6 wounds. Say 2 dead 'nettes.

Mob attacks.

'nettes go first. WS4, 3 attacks each; this is 12x3=36 attacks.

18 hit. S3 vs T4

3 wound

3 rend

So, 6 dead Orks

5 regular orks. Swing 4x each. 20 attacks; 10 hits, 6.67 wounds on 'nettes.

Nob: 4 attacks, 2 hits, 2 wounds. So, about 8 wounds on 'nettes. with 5+, 'nettes lose 5.56 'nettes.

So on average, you're pretty close to tying orks in equal numbers.

 

...and you cost more, and can't hurt vehicles with any degree of reliabiltiy. Mr. Nob with his Power Klaw says he can screw up vehicles pretty well.

 

To be honest? If you're running mixed-god lists? Take fiends if you want this. There's no real ifs/ands/buts to that. 'nettes have no place in a mixed-god list, because they won't LIVE long enough to score against anyone that can bring shooting/CC to bear on them.

 

The ONLY thing I see 'nettes having goign for them is grenades. Transfixing Gaze is too cheap for nil benefit (ooh! I stole an attack from a tactial marine sergeant! Big deal). As far as I'm concerned, they bring nothing to my army I can't get elsewhere, better. (Fiends are also faster, too).

 

'nettes are also why I'd not think about mono-Slaanesh, to be honest.

[minigun762]

They CANNOT reliably deal with tanks, either. They need 6's on amror penetration, THEN 4+ on the rending dice to pen a vehicle. They just don't have the numbers and strength. They can kind of kill troops, but are heavily reliant on the rend to do so. They wound most basic troops 1/3 of the time.

 

They're not that bad actually. Assuming you're hitting something's rear AV10 armor they do well enough.

 

10 Bloodletters = 30 attacks @ S5 = 15 hits (assuming it moved 6") = 2.5 glances/2.5 penetrating hits

11 Daemonettes = 44 attacks @ S3 = 22 hits = 1.2 glances/2.4 penetrating hits

 

So while Bloodletters are better, Daemonettes do a fairly reliable job of taking out armor. They can also hurt AV12 whereas Bloodletters will never be able to do that (other then 1 model with Rending).

 

Again the key thing with Daemonettes is their speed. Since they can Fleet vs Run, they're more likely to get the charge off, they suffer less if they get charged, they're going to spend less time being shot at and they will always hit @ I6.

 

Bloodletters suffer drastically when they can't get the charge, when they have to walk up the board and when charging into cover.

 

Both are assault units, one is more killy, the other is faster.

 

Comparing them to their Elite versions isn't very helpful, as both Elites are superior (as they should be).

[sexiest_hero]

I agree with with minigun 100%. Daemonettes have the ability to land safely out of rapid fire range, so they should never be getting double tapped. As for the truck mob, a daemon player, but more importantly a daemonette player shouldn't get double tapped and charged by a truck mob. Daemonettes like all slannesh units, allow you to land further away/behind other units, or behind cover, a 4+ coversave works wonders.