[Daemon review] Troops.

[Raptor1313]

@Minigun

I concur that 'nettes and Bloodletters are about the same at killing armor, but neither is very GOOD at it. Assaulting armor also means getting shot at during the opponent's turn since you aren't 'locked' in melee, and also involves getting to that armor.

 

I concur about the charge as well; 'nettes don't NEED it in the same way 'letters do.

 

As for comparing troops to elites...I wholeheartedly disagree.

 

In our codex, the elites actually ARE a bigger, meaner version of what's essentially the same unit. They fulfill the same roll: killing things. Elites can't score, but the Khorne/Slaanesh troops ARE NOT SURVIVABLE. T3-4 with a 5+ save is NOTHING. You must horde them in massive units, and you're still going to take losses. If you want a unit that's going to run at the enemy, kill, and die, go ahead and take the elites because they are BETTER at it than the troops. Take troops to SCORE.

 

@Sexiest_Hero

With respect, how exactly does a largely footslogging, assaulty army actually STOP a transport from going anywhere?

 

How are you NOT going to get pistol'ed and charged by a Trukk/Battlewagon Mob, or double-tapped by a Rhino-Tac or Dire Avengers in a Wave Serpent? All of these units are mounted in things faster than the 'nettes.

 

Trukks can pull off a 12" move, and an 8" charge (2" disembark + 6" charge) or a 9-14" charge with the Waagh, but they're not shooting the BS2 pistols.

 

Wave Serpents can move 12", kick out Dire Avengers, who shoot you from 18" away.

 

Rhinos can move a squad 12", kick out a tac squad, and they fire at 12"

 

Can you land out of double-tap range? That's not a simple yes/no. What did the scatter dice say about your landing when you came in? Did you have an Icon in the right place/time? There's no way to guarantee daemons show up when/where you want them. The average scatter distance of 7" can make a hefty difference when it comes to getting in/out of rapid-fire range.

 

If you want to stop these squads from getting out and double-tapping you, what can you do? Well, maybe your daemon army has shooting in it. The only real anti-tank shooting is Bolt of Tzeentch, but Soul Grinders can do okay-ish with Phelgm or Tongue. Most people take Tongue for the S8 pie plate, and the slightly-better-than-50% chance to land it on vehicles. About the most I've seen a daemon army crank out in anti-tank fire is 10-11 Boltz of Tzeentch (this being Tzeentch-pure, which is 3-4 horror units, fateweaver, 2 heralds, 1-2 flamers and 3 DP).

 

Chances are if you're running 'nettes and the like, you're probably not running much in the way of shooting. Let me know if this is a far assumption, but I'm figuring you MIGHT have Soul Grinders. Even then, one pen kills a vehicle 33% of the time. Either way, Daemons are generally not shooty enough to deal with armor. (Well, make that 'never', since even such a Tzeentch army isn't getting all its firepower at once and is only decently accurate)

 

So, it's assault. Now, you might get to assault Rhinos. Trukks? They'll always get the charge on you. Same with Battlewagons. A Wave Serpent can bust out a 24" zoom and be pretty safe, then come back and shoot you later.

 

So, you run up to that AV10-rear transport. Say, 14 'nettes. Assume it moved at LEAST 6". 14x4= 56 swings; 28 hits. These hits now need 6's to rend. 4.667 rends. 1.5 glances (probably keep it from shooting) and 3.1 pens. So, you might pop it.

 

Now, either way, the squad's going to fall out of the back. (...a good player who is, at worst, bracing for the charge will make sure his guys have room to disembark. Unless you're committing multiple units to popping a ~200pt tac squad in rhino). If they have a flamer? Oh, you're in for it because you've just clustered up your troops. Then, rapid-fire. The tac squad deals with a couple survivors that get frisky in assault.

 

And unless you can shoot them out of the transport, you're looking at scenarios like this. Tell me exactly how, as a daemon player, you're dealing with mechanized armies with our troops.

[minigun762]

@Minigun

As for comparing troops to elites...I wholeheartedly disagree.

 

In our codex, the elites actually ARE a bigger, meaner version of what's essentially the same unit. They fulfill the same roll: killing things. Elites can't score, but the Khorne/Slaanesh troops ARE NOT SURVIVABLE. T3-4 with a 5+ save is NOTHING. You must horde them in massive units, and you're still going to take losses. If you want a unit that's going to run at the enemy, kill, and die, go ahead and take the elites because they are BETTER at it than the troops. Take troops to SCORE.

 

I agree with that, maybe I'm miscommunicating here. :)

 

Point for point, a Bloodcrusher is superior to a Bloodletter just as a Fiend is superior to a Daemonette. Thats I think most everyone will agree with.

 

However I didn't want to compare the Elites to the Troops because you need to have Troops in your army and you don't need to have Elites. If you run a mono-god list, or even a multi-god list that doesn't use Tzeentch or Nurgle Troops, you're going to have to use either Bloodletters or Daemonettes and my original point was that I don't believe either one is vastly superior to the other, all things considered.

 

Of course if we're talking competitive multi-god builds, then most everyone will probably take PlagueBearers are Troops since they do the scoring unit thing the best and use the Elite spots for 'Crushers, Flamers and Fiends. But not everyone wants to play competitively or they have a theme that may limit what they want to choose.

 

Same reason not every Chaos Marine player uses Plague Marines.

 

Does that make more sense? Or am I just rambling again.

[sexiest_hero]

Raptor1313 you are right when you say a battlewagon can roll up and roast a nette unit. but will they zoom in with a greater daemon nearby,it that battlewagon filled with orks worth sacrifice of one Nette squad? That trukk is a pretty easy thing to bust with horrors, flamers, or breath and daemonic gaze. Those dire avengers can tackle that nette squad, or the fiends, of the daemon prince. You simply have to make sure there is something else there to look more scary or provide cover. screamers and greater daemons/daemonprinces handle the AV. For instance A rhino won't roll up on daemonettes only to get munched by a soul grinder. thier biggest asset seems to be people tend to overlook them to fire are the good stuff, and all the wile they are pretty good at combat and fast as wind. We don't deal with AV with our troops, We already have HQ, elite, fast attack and Heavy support for that. That said you do make great points and I don't want you to think i'm Trolling or anything.

[Raptor1313]

@Minigun

Whoops. I think I misread some of your intent.

 

Honestly, though, if your'e going a theme? Then you're going to roll with your theme. And that just means knowing what hte units can do.

 

If you're looking for choices, I think then it's a matter of knowing what all your options can do wiht respect to each other.

 

I'll also disagree and say that Horrors can have a place in a competitive army so long as there are some serious target-priority issues presented. Plaguebeares get a pass because they're just so %#@*ing annoying to actually KILL. :angry:

 

@Sexiest_Hero

 

To be honest, depends on the greater daemon. Buried Powerfists/klaws (if they're buried deep enough) in a unit are actually a threat to MCs. Mr. Thirster kills an amazing 3-4 orks a turn. The others? Something like that. If it's not a Thirster, then Mr. Nob is averaging 2 wounds on them. Might be a scary place for that MC to be, to be honest.

 

I think you might be overstating the odds of daemon shooting popping armor...

 

At BS4, a Bolt of Tzeentch...

hits 2/3 of the time

Vs AV11? Pens 1/2 the time. Then, kills 1/2 the time. So, each bolt of tzeentch you whip off at a Rhino has a 16% chance of popping it.

At BS5, it's 5/6 hits, so a 20% chance following the math.

The BS3 bolt is even wors, with about a 12.5% chance to pop the thing.

 

Horrors don't pop Trukks. ~10 horrors = 30 shots, = 15 hits, = 2.5 glances, = probably just shaken, and with Extra Armor, they're moving. The BS3 bolt of Tzeentch is a bit better, with a 25% chance of popping it. (4 to hit, 3 to pen, 3+ to kill it). But, Trukks have htier own happy little Ramshackle rules.

 

Flamers? Either they're shooting it with BS4 Warp Fire (a sacrificial unit of 3 is good for 8 hits, a unit of 4-5 might nail it with a bolt). Breath of Chaos gets you a glance 50% of the time. Still, there's a decent chance you'll lose the unit, but that's how flamers roll. Flamers with bolt at range can do as good a number on armor as anything in our army can, but you really don't get anything out of Breath of Chaos for vehicle-hunting unless you're esperate.

 

You do make points about support that are well-taken. Then agian, support is not always a given in the Daemon army...off the bat, everyone's rolling 2d6 + scatter dice, so you might not get support nearby. IF support arrives in the right places, it's going to be a problem.

 

But, don't overestimate the daemonic ability to pop armor outside of melee.....we just don't really have it.

[Infidel]

I feel that we might be deviating from the topic a little bit and these discussion is probably more suited for when we discuss Heavy Support choices.

 

Remember how we deal with Necrons and their bastard monoliths? We ignore the scary av14 green-cube-of-death and phase them out by going for the troops. In a competitive game where a daemon player field primarily letters and/or netts as troop choice, they do the same thing. They hammer our troops and tie down our big guys with their own big guys and/or armour and because we dont have troops to claim objectives, they win or draw a game that should have been in our favour.

 

To put things into perspective here, we have THREE shooting attack that can reliably pop a vehicle. Bolt of Tzeentch, Screamers and Tongue on a grinder. The S10 AP1 Tongue on the Grinder I rarely see anyone take outside of me when i find myself staring down at the barrel of a LRC, in fact, any AV14. IF you can get the MCs into melee with their armour, then they're guaranteed to pop. My experience told me that the best way to do this is to take icons, and drop our units close to their flanks, DS the GDs onto the icons and then go for the tanks. The Thirsters and LoC can fly and KoS can fleet and ping pong.

 

If we suck at shooting, then don't play like a Tau. Got a problem with their armour? Grow a pair of balls and storm their line with big scary things. Got problem catching up to them skimmers? Keep them on the run with our fiends or screamers and then they wont dare to stop. Our strength lies in the DS deployment (and our greatest bane) and the fact that we out assault just about everything.

 

The Netts are fragile and expensive, then don't pitch them against hoards or stuff that they cant reliably eradicate. Send the netts against Crisis suits, Broadsides, Heavy Weapons squads, Devastators, Dark Reapers and shooty Terminators. Next on the list are the expensive units in tiny squads that wont have a chance to hit back before some nice rending pain, like Pariahs, MCs, wraithlords, HQs....you name it. Strike with overwhelming force, or dont strike at all. That's the motto of the Netts

[Captain Malachi]

So does anyone want me to actually change anything with the 'nettes write up? And if so, what?

[minigun762]

I don't think so, we kinda got pulled away into a sidebar. :P

 

I think Daemonette's section is fine.

[Raptor1313]

My bad. I think I porbably pulled us a bit off-topic there.

 

To jog back to topic...

 

I just wonder if it's something we're missing, and that's how we deal with mechanized armies. A whole lot of our advice is "Bring lots of it" and by 'it' we're talking about expensive units, like 14-17 a head here, and they fold under basic shooting.

 

I think I'm with Infidel, here, in a sense. If we rely too much on expensive, fragile troops to deliver the hitting power (IE: Bloodletters and 'nettes, though HOrrors are also angling to be on this list as a 4+ save is not THAT much better than a 5+) AND score, we're asking not to have either.

 

Then again, this is coming from a guy who doesn't feel like 'letters and 'nettes have a place in an army that's not themed, so take what you can get from that.

[Captain Malachi]

We're telling then the good and bad points of each unit on their own and how to get the most out of them. When we get to the army as a whole we'll mention the importance of making sure you have enough anti-tank etc.

 

In the meantime, nurglings anyone?

[==Me==]

Best fluff blurb in the Codex :angry:

 

More at 10.

[minigun762]

Nurglings are almost going to be a word for word copy of Beasts. They're a bad choice in most lists but a great choice in a Tally list.

[Captain Malachi]

Actually, a tarpit could be pretty useful in multi-god lists. At least I feel they could anyway, I have little experience with them outside of my small Nurgle army.

[minigun762]

Actually, a tarpit could be pretty useful in multi-god lists. At least I feel they could anyway, I have little experience with them outside of my small Nurgle army.

 

Yeah but wouldn't Beasts or PlagueBearers or Hounds or yuck...even Furies be better?

[Captain Malachi]

You know furies aren't that bad, a little overcosted though. Thing is, nurglings make great tarpits cos they're small enough get cover easily on the way over, and get a boost to it too, and then they have more wounds for the price once there. Plaguebearers would make a better tarpit, but if they're pitting, they aren't holding, just contesting. Nurglings don't have to worry about that since they can't score anyway. As for beasts, they're too expensive and vie for the elites slot, whereas surely we can all spare one of our six troops slots? Hounds have other uses I find.

[minigun762]

I'll buy that thats a use for them if you run them in a multi-god army.

 

However I wouldn't say its worth buying Nurglings just for that reason. Thats just too generous -_-

[Captain Malachi]

Maybe, I'll let some other people give their opinions first.

[minigun762]

Maybe, I'll let some other people give their opinions first.

 

Wait, I'm not the only one who matters?

I'm hurt by that...

:)

[==Me==]

Nurglings are nice cheap tarpit. Sure Beasts and Furies are killier, but they don't cost 13 points for 3 wounds. Even 4 of those buggers can hold an enemy unit in place for a turn or two, enough time to bring in the appropriate response.

[Raptor1313]

Nurglings = cheap tarpits. However, No Retreat! being what it is, they'll only last so long. WS2, S3, and 3 attacks mean that you're maybe wounding a T4 model once for every couple of bases.

 

They're different in a mono-Nurgle army, though.

 

They're horridly vulnerable to flamer templates. No cover saves, wound on 3+, 5+ save against it, and each unsaved is doubled.

 

If you expect lots of flamers, don't bother.

 

Otherwise? Hide them in cover.

 

The other use? Bring Nurglings to boost your unit total and give you more deployment options. 39 points for the minimum of 3. It's another unit, and if it pushes you into odd-number territory, you get to take more units. Plunk them in cover, or contest an objective.

 

Honestly, I bring them occasionally as tarpits. 6-7 of them, moving through cover? That's a pain to deal with, and they'll actually hold a unit in melee for a couple turns. They'll get a 3+ save against cover, and in general just take TIME to kill. They'll die, to be sure, but if you're using Nurglings as anything it's to buy time.

[Captain Malachi]

How does this sound?

 

Nurglings:

Pretty much the definition of a tarpit. These guys are unlikely to win many fights, weapon skill two and strength three can only take you so far, even with three attacks each. What they will do however is take forever to kill, being immune to instant death and having three wounds each, for a pretty low price, means they just refuse to die. However, beware of flamers, they’ll do two wounds on each base if they hit, which is pretty nasty.

 

In an Epidemius list, they actually become pretty lethal, but we’ll go in to that in more detail later. Just remember that because they are so hard to kill, they can be pretty useful for contesting objectives, even if they can’t hold them.

[Infidel]

They're also infantry...let's not forget that. They're not s'n'p like the rest of the nurgle army

[minigun762]

Toss in something about them moving through cover and getting the additional save.

[Captain Malachi]

Ah, good points, I knew I'd forgotten something, will edit momentarily.

[Captain Malachi]

Hey, just want to check something with you guys as I'm unable to check it myself, nurglings can go to ground right? For some reason I have an awful feeling they can't.

[==Me==]

Why not? Should be fun when combined with Stealth.