Fixing Daemonhunters

[Aidoneus]

Can't we just have one project at once? I've had to explain this to two different project leaders already. :) Okay lets take it from the top.

I'm sorry that you've had to repeat yourself, but the attitude isn't really necessary. Keep in mind, we project-leaders don't work together, so it's hardly like we could coordinate or anything.

 

With due respect though, you left out a few units from your list:

 

Imperial guard: the only thing that won't be getting a save that it used to would be a model with a refractor field. In the current codex. In a month, who knows?

Net effect: minimal

 

Tyranids: Zoanthropes now do not get their save in hth. nor do hive tyrants with warp field

Net effect: minimal

 

Space marines: Chaplain, Terminators, and storm shields Calgar, Sicarius, Cassius, Cantor, Lysander, Vulcan, Khan, Masters, Captains, Company Champions, Legion of the Damned, assault terminators

Net effect: major

 

Eldar: Farseers and seer council no longer get Invuln save Autarch, warlocks, avatar, Yriel, Eldrad, Asurmen, Harlequins

Net effect, major

 

Chaos daemons:Practically noo saves in hand to hand As far as I know, absolutely no saves in hth

Net Effect: utterly devestating

 

Chaos Space marines: Terminators lose Invuln save Abaddon, Huron, Typhus, Khârn, Ahriman, Lucius, Daemon Prince, Lord, Sorcerer, possessed, thousand sons, spawn, greater daemon, lesser daemons, absolutely everything with the mark of Tzzentch

Net effect: major, possibly devastating

 

Tau: They might have an invuln save from something but if your in hand to hand they are already dead.

Effect: Negligible Don't have the codex, but yeah, pretty much

 

Orks: Custum force field no longer works Ghazghkull. Grotsnik, anything in a cybork body (warboss, big mek)

Net effect: minor, though still considerable

 

Dark eldar: Anything with a shadowfield (one per army, but it's a 2++)

Net effect: negligible

 

Necron:Nightbringer, Deciever, and Pariahs Lord with Phase Shifter, Wraiths, actually not pariahs

Net effect: moderate

 

Daemonhunters: Stern, Coteaz, Grand Masters, Brother-Captains, Models with Icon of the Just, Refractor Field, or Terminator Armour, GKTs, Daemonhosts, Deathcults, Assassins (note, this is ALL of our HQ and Elites!), and adversaries

Net Effect: Major

 

Witch Hunters: Karamazov, Celestine, Anyone with a prosidium, anyone using Spirit of the Martyr, Deathcults, Assassins

Net effect: considerable

 

Blood Angels: Dante, Tycho, Corbulo, Lemartes, Chaplain, Captain, Terminators

Net effect: minor

 

Dark Angels: don't have the codex, but roughly the same

 

Space Wolves: don't have the codex, but roughly the same

 

You see, there are in fact quite a lot of invulnerable saves out there. In many cases, those models rely on those invulnerable saves. In all cases, they pay a premium for them. Consider: an Icon of the Just costs 5 times as much as Carapace Armour! Also, how many models in the game can ignore both armour and invulnerable saves? Four. Both 300+pt C'tan "gods," the absolutely-1-per-army-no-exceptions Callidus, and the not-necron-so-a-waste-of-points-no-matter-what Pariahs. It's a very rare, very powerful ability, and I simply cannot conceive what an army full of them (justicars, GKT, heros) would do to the overall balance of the entire game of 40k. No. That is FAR beyond the scope of this project. It's simply not going to happen.

 

 

I meant for them to be still counted as a heavy support choice which wouldn't change the number of dreadnaughts any player could take. If I haven't said it already I'm partially dislexic, also I'm and industrial major not an english major. As for the load out I think that more CC options should become available( more armor and another DCCW) as for why: they can kill any tank with str 10, and up close they are able to be deployed into the thick of the fighting where they fight the best.

They can also kill any tank with a multi-melta, lascannon, or assault cannon (or, potentially, missile launcher). I'm not sure why you think they need an extra close combat weapon for this task. Also, regular space marine dreadnoughts don't get extra close combat weapons, so I think it makes sense to follow that precedent. I think consensus earlier was to not venture into ironclads because the GKs use so few dreadnoughts, it is unlikely they would have variations, and in addition, they are simply not in the business of siege warfare, which is the sole purpose of ironclads.

 

Firstly, I'm starting from the assumption that if you want something, you pay points for it, either as part of your base cost or as an optional upgrade. My argument will be built on this foundation, as to me it seems to follow the well-established GW points system.

This is where I disagree. We have given GKs MANY enhancements in this project, and increased the points cost of hardly anything (GM, Stern, Bionics... I think that's it). In fact, I stipulated that this would not be added if it involved a points hike. I even think we are all in agreement there. If we do gain this ability, it would involve either a boost to Daemonic Infestation, or some other daemon-specific rule to counterbalance the daemon-specific benefit.

 

 

So first lets apply your three rules to this. A) is it fluffy, absolutely yes. Dreadnoughts are the best of the best and count as infantry for half their abilities. The Nought itself is built around the body of the fallen Knight and as such the most distant piece of it is a few feet from his body. Dreadnoughts can get the Aegis ability currently which means they are still (rightfully so) psychicly powerful. They have no physical body and so it stands to reason they would still continue to develop their minds. The emperor has continued to use his psychic powers for 10,000 years after being slain I think a Dreadnought can manage a lesser feat. So not only is it fluffy to confer shrouding its unfluffy not to.

This makes a fair bit of sense to me, actually.

 

:devil: is it minimalistic? Conference of a rule from one infantry unit to another... yes it is a very minimal change.

Well... it's a vehicle that happens to move (and somewhat look) like infantry, but even still I'll grant that it isn't out of character for the army, nor is it particularly complex or involved.

 

C) is it overpowered? No, its not. Dreadnoughts have 2 long range tank busting weapons to trade fire with tanks with... and what kinds of units do they trade shots with? Tau Hammerheads - Fail. Predator Annihilators - Fail. Land Raiders - Fail. Exorcists - Fail. Leman Russ - Fail. They are outmatched by their counterparts in other armies in every way since it is our only non transport AT option. To allow us to shoot enemies with a single las shot and a missle once per turn with the "potential" not to get shot back is not OP. Considering all the other teams sit back and shoot have higher armor and more potent weapons. I think it should raise the cost of our unit but I think its something we should consider seriously. Its our only option, it should be a good one. And this rule doesn't help against melta weapons and such, just the long range duels.

This is where I have some problems. The dreadnought can take 3 weapons (lascannon, autocannon, missile launcher) that have a 48" range. That is the absolute maximum range of shrouding, and under my system enemies can only see a shrouded unit 48" one in every 1296 tries!

 

Also, it is unfair to compare dreadnoughts to these other vehicles. For one, comparisons between races never capture the whole picture, as units are priced in the context of their army (for example, in a perfectly-objective world, no way would a monolith be cheaper than a land raider). For another, the dreadnought is not a main battle tank, and so will not be as good in that role (although we are forced to use it that way sometimes), and instead surpasses those tanks in other roles, like supporting GKs on the front lines.

 

Now, all this being said, since I can't argue with your fluff argument, perhaps there is a way to compromise? My thought is that maybe we can make this ability part of our Venerable upgrade, instead of the actual "venerable" rule. That is, a standard dreadnought can pay +50pts to get +1BS and Shrouding. Would this be satisfactory? The main benefit here is that it allows for you to take the very effective ability at a cost, without forcing players to do so.

 

 

My point about the Hellfire round is a minor nitpick. I just want to avoid players feel like they're getting punished (ie - "wasting" a special round). Again, minor nitpick. Not a big deal.

 

I have two hangups about the new Vindicare special rule:

 

1) It must be called Headshot! no matter what other changes we make to it down the road. It's simply too cool not to. That's my one major demand.

 

2) General wording change: it might be easier to just say the shot automatically wounds and becomes AP1. No need to mention models with wounds or an armor value, because models with wounds don't care about an AP2 shot becoming AP1, and vehicles don't care about rolls to wound.

To your second point, that's sort of what I meant with my second suggestion. At any rate, I agree. And to your first point... duh! ;)

[FunkyEntropy]

My point about the Hellfire round is a minor nitpick. I just want to avoid players feel like they're getting punished (ie - "wasting" a special round). Again, minor nitpick. Not a big deal.

 

I have two hangups about the new Vindicare special rule:

 

1) It must be called Headshot! no matter what other changes we make to it down the road. It's simply too cool not to. That's my one major demand.

 

2) General wording change: it might be easier to just say the shot automatically wounds and becomes AP1. No need to mention models with wounds or an armor value, because models with wounds don't care about an AP2 shot becoming AP1, and vehicles don't care about rolls to wound.

To your second point, that's sort of what I meant with my second suggestion. At any rate, I agree. And to your first point... duh! :yes:

 

Let it be so!

 

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Re: Venerable dreads. I can see dreads being offered shrouding as part of the package for the points cost you suggested (50pts). For that much I'd personally rather just go for a Land Raider which would only cost another 65 points, but I can fully get behind people who'd rather use the Dread (as stated, shrouding on hellfire dreads is very powerful).

[Prathios]

My point about the Hellfire round is a minor nitpick. I just want to avoid players feel like they're getting punished (ie - "wasting" a special round). Again, minor nitpick. Not a big deal.

 

I have two hangups about the new Vindicare special rule:

 

1) It must be called Headshot! no matter what other changes we make to it down the road. It's simply too cool not to. That's my one major demand.

 

2) General wording change: it might be easier to just say the shot automatically wounds and becomes AP1. No need to mention models with wounds or an armor value, because models with wounds don't care about an AP2 shot becoming AP1, and vehicles don't care about rolls to wound.

 

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I have to say that I adamantly oppose anything that would increase the costs of the standard GK, or of any other unit in the Codex. Most of our stuff costs too much already, no need to exacerbate the problem.

 

So no NFWs ignoring invulnerable saves. Want to absolutely rip through some daemons? Take some psycannons and psy-bolts. Want to do it via melee? Anoint your NFWs and go to town.

 

We've got enough toys to rip through daemons as it is.

 

Headshot is hereby seconded. If its not named that, I'll start a petition! I'm ok with Nemesis weapons staying the way they are as some invulnerable saves should still get taken against them, like for instance force fields or acrobatics. Kinda makes no sense psycannons defeat acrobatics but I wont argue...

[Aidoneus]

Headshot is hereby seconded. If its not named that, I'll start a petition!

:lol: No worries! I even included the exclamation point, just because.

 

Check it out!

 

Edit: This is the second time now I've forgotten to address this. The language about the re-roll is necessary because his BS of 6 means that he hits on a 2+, and if he misses he gets to roll again, this time hitting on a 6. It's on page 18 of the BBB

 

Edit take two: Gah! Didn't see the second half of Funky's post.

Re: Venerable dreads. I can see dreads being offered shrouding as part of the package for the points cost you suggested (50pts). For that much I'd personally rather just go for a Land Raider which would only cost another 65 points, but I can fully get behind people who'd rather use the Dread (as stated, shrouding on hellfire dreads is very powerful).

Just to be clear (because I'm not sure if this is what you're saying or not), my suggestion was not offer the "venerable" rule (i.e. re-rolling damage results), but instead offer Shrouding. I'm not sure whether to include the BS upgrade or not, seeing as it would further in crease the power of the Shrouding (since you're obviously going hellfire if you're paying for a better-at-long-range power).

 

Alternatively, we could simply offer two upgrades. One is the venerable rule as I have it written ("venerable" re-roll, and +1BS), and another completely separate upgrade option is Shrouding by itself. This would make it quite expensive, although still theoretically possible, to have a BS5 Shrouded Dreadnought, and would leave either of the two options viable by themselves.

 

In that case (and I'm not pushing this; merely offering as a possibility), I'd say Venerable for +50pts and Shrouding for, I dunno... off the top of my head, maybe 40pts? Something along those lines.

 

What do people think. Does anyone have doubts about the Shrouding concept in-and-of itself, regardless of cost? Does anyone think it should be combined with Venerable? Does anyone like the idea of offering two upgrades? And if you chose the last, how much is fair for Shrouding?

[FunkyEntropy]

Headshot is hereby seconded. If its not named that, I'll start a petition!

:lol: No worries! I even included the exclamation point, just because.

 

Check it out!

 

Edit: This is the second time now I've forgotten to address this. The language about the re-roll is necessary because his BS of 6 means that he hits on a 2+, and if he misses he gets to roll again, this time hitting on a 6. It's on page 18 of the BBB

 

Oh snap! That's exactly what I like to see! I'm glad you included the exclamation mark - it definitely makes the rule something special. With it: awesome. Without: meh.

 

I totally forgot he gets a re-roll for being BS6. Even more awesome. I think we finally have a guy who people will seriously consider taking over the Eversore or Callidus.

 

-----------------------

 

Now just to drag the Culexus from the massive suck-pit in which it currently dwells.

 

The upgraded Etherium is a nice start, but I still feel like the model lacks "oomph". I feel like either the Culexus needs to be harder to hit, or hit harder. I know he's the anti-psyker, but I'd like to see him taken more often and not just because you know you're going to be facing a seer-council.

 

Maybe something that emphasizes the debilitating effect he has on normal troops?

 

I just love the concept of a soulless freaky guy running around scaring the bejesus out of everybody. Also, the skull helmet on the mini is really, really cool.

 

What I'm getting at is that there's a general niche for each assassin, and the Culexus doesn't really have one. Every assassin finds use against every army, except the Culexus.

 

My idea for each assassin niche:

Callidus: Great for singling out a specific unit for destruction.

Vindicare: Byebye hidden powerfists - the anti-squadleader.

Eversore: General mayhem. The troop lawnmower.

Culexus: Morale destroyer. This guy should seriously mess with people.

 

Maybe if we extended the range of soulless? How about giving it a graded effect - eg 12" -3 leadership, 24" -2 leadership, etc etc. or something similar? How about making soulless even more nasty (perhaps -4 or even -5 leadership!)? Or some combination of all of the above?

 

This is the one instance where I wouldn't mind in there being a slight increase in points if necessary. This guy needs some serious love.

 

[edit: I must have misread your post regarding dreads. I'm not sure how venerable worked its way in there, feel free to disregard as I really don't see GK having a hierarchy of dreadnoughts. Regarding making shrouding an option 30~50 points sounds fair, but I think it needs some serious balance testing to iron out a good points costs. We may find out that 30 points is too much, or 50 points too little.]

[Aidoneus]

Now just to drag the Culexus from the massive suck-pit in which it currently dwells.

 

Maybe something that emphasizes the debilitating effect he has on normal troops?

 

I just love the concept of a soulless freaky guy running around scaring the bejesus out of everybody. Also, the skull helmet on the mini is really, really cool.

 

What I'm getting at is that there's a general niche for each assassin, and the Culexus doesn't really have one. Every assassin finds use against every army, except the Culexus.

 

My idea for each assassin niche:

Callidus: Great for singling out a specific unit for destruction.

Vindicare: Byebye hidden powerfists - the anti-squadleader.

Eversore: General mayhem. The troop lawnmower.

Culexus: Morale destroyer. This guy should seriously mess with people.

I try not to post too often or respond too quickly, as I don't want to monopolize the conversation. But when I see an idea this good, my mind starts flying, and I can't help myself.

 

Yes. YES! This is exactly what the Culexus needs! Thank you!

 

Okay, I don't want to propose anything remotely resembling definitive. I'm completely just brainstorming here. These are options, completely separate and in no particular order, and certainly not comprehensive.

 

1) Word of the Emperor

-I figure if it's hard to stand being near him, the idea of charging right up to him must be really terrifying, and hard for most troops to deal with.

2) Each unit in base-to-base with him in CC takes a Ld test (remember Soulless), and each model suffers -1 attack (to a minimum of 1) for each point the unit fails the test by.

-this is your harder-to-hit option, and shows how troops are rendered inefficient and hapless in his presence. also lets him more freely "do his thing" with any psykers involved

3) may "open the eye" of his psyocculum, creating some sort of powerful targeted Ld attack (not to cause wounds, but perhaps pinning, permanent Ld modifier, or something of that nature)

-seems to capture fluff next to his entry

4) Psychic Hood

-more in line with anti-psyker role, and not really clever, but at least makes him better at it

5) Perhaps some Word-in-your-ear-like ability. That is, some pre-game sabotage, unrelated the actual assassin model, that you get to use simply because it's in the army. This would be Ld-based.

-not sure about the fluff, but perhaps worth exploring

 

I'll stop there, and encourage people to reply not only to this topic but others brought up earlier on this page of the thread.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Firstly, I'm starting from the assumption that if you want something, you pay points for it, either as part of your base cost or as an optional upgrade. My argument will be built on this foundation, as to me it seems to follow the well-established GW points system.

This is where I disagree. We have given GKs MANY enhancements in this project, and increased the points cost of hardly anything (GM, Stern, Bionics... I think that's it). In fact, I stipulated that this would not be added if it involved a points hike. I even think we are all in agreement there. If we do gain this ability, it would involve either a boost to Daemonic Infestation, or some other daemon-specific rule to counterbalance the daemon-specific benefit.

 

You've missed my point somewhat. We still pay for these things, just as part of our base cost. The bar on what you can get for that amount of points has simply been raised, as it has with Space Marines. We still pay 25pts per PAGK for our abilities, we just get more for that 25pts.

 

5) Perhaps some Word-in-your-ear-like ability. That is, some pre-game sabotage, unrelated the actual assassin model, that you get to use simply because it's in the army. This would be Ld-based.

-not sure about the fluff, but perhaps worth exploring

 

How about something like this:

 

"A Breach in the Warp

The presence of a Culexus Assassin in the region creates a disturbing spot were the warp appears to be completely absent. To a psyker viewing the area with their abilities, touching such an area unprepared is a nasty shock, as it is anaethma to their abilities. Psykers who are affected by this 'blank spot' find it difficult to re-focus themselves for some time.

For every psyker in the enemy army, roll a D6. On a 4+, that psyker makes all psychic tests at -1 Ld for the rest of the game. Additionally, you must also make rolls for all friendly psykers which have been deployed within 24" of the Culexus. If the Culexus comes on from reserve, no friendly psykers are affected.

[FunkyEntropy]

"A Breach in the Warp

The presence of a Culexus Assassin in the region creates a disturbing spot were the warp appears to be completely absent. To a psyker viewing the area with their abilities, touching such an area unprepared is a nasty shock, as it is anaethma to their abilities. Psykers who are affected by this 'blank spot' find it difficult to re-focus themselves for some time.

For every psyker in the enemy army, roll a D6. On a 4+, that psyker makes all psychic tests at -1 Ld for the rest of the game. Additionally, you must also make rolls for all friendly psykers which have been deployed within 24" of the Culexus. If the Culexus comes on from reserve, no friendly psykers are affected.

 

I think you missed slightly what I was after. The Culexus kicks enough psyker butt already. Now we need to make him a valuable alternative when enemy psykers aren't present.

 

I went back over the Culexus entry, and I've already found one area where we can make a significant and simple change: The soulless entry. Instead of making models within range leadership 7, why not impose a penalty? Say...-3 leadership? Same effect against the majority of psyker units, but much, much nastier against garden variety troops.

 

3) may "open the eye" of his psyocculum, creating some sort of powerful targeted Ld attack (not to cause wounds, but perhaps pinning, permanent Ld modifier, or something of that nature)

-seems to capture fluff next to his entry

I think you're on to something here.

 

How about: "Instead of firing negative energy blasts with the Animus Speculum, the Culexus may instead choose to fully expose it's baleful eye. Draw a single 36" line [or some other distance] from the Culexus in any direction. Any unit which the line passes through [and has line of sight to the Culexus?] must immediately pass a leadership test or fall back directly away from the Culexus. Any model encountering dangerous terrain or an enemy unit counts as destroyed, as per the normal rules."

 

This has potential, I think. For example, a nasty one-two punch: sandwich a unit between the Culexus and some GK, then let rip. The enemy unit must flee directly away from the Culexus...directly into the waiting arms of the GK.

[Prathios]

"A Breach in the Warp

The presence of a Culexus Assassin in the region creates a disturbing spot were the warp appears to be completely absent. To a psyker viewing the area with their abilities, touching such an area unprepared is a nasty shock, as it is anaethma to their abilities. Psykers who are affected by this 'blank spot' find it difficult to re-focus themselves for some time.

For every psyker in the enemy army, roll a D6. On a 4+, that psyker makes all psychic tests at -1 Ld for the rest of the game. Additionally, you must also make rolls for all friendly psykers which have been deployed within 24" of the Culexus. If the Culexus comes on from reserve, no friendly psykers are affected.

 

Thats not a bad rule. I kinda like it. How about another rule that no psyker can use any special abilities or powers while within 12" of the Culexus. And the leadership auto-morale test needs to be more sever, offer closer to a 60-70% chance they will break and run, because nothing could be more terrifying for psykers, especially Eldar. But most of all there has to be a way to make him even more survivable. This guy needs to be just about guaranteed to get his job done and eliminate whatever psyker target you intended, after all thats the whole point of the character. I don't think I'd make him particularly good at CC or RC against anything non-Psyker but against warp spawn, daemons, eldar warlocks/farseers, anything of this nature he should be just short of an auto-win. Perhaps cause his occulus to have a different level of power depending on the target, say forinstance its just a S5 AP5 against normal things but daemons, psykers, and warp spawn should take S10 AP1 hits with no saves allowed much like the cally? But at range and keep the rule for number of shots +1 per psyker.

 

But lets not forget that these guys are anti-demon as well as they carry the tradition of the sisters of silence, its very tough for a daemon to stay on the material plane inside the null field of a blank much less a super blank and Occulum shots should pretty much instantly destabilize daemons what with the Necron anti-warp tech and all.

 

Just my thoughts on the matter.

 

Oh and Headshot! looks great, I think that's a great addition.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

And the leadership auto-morale test needs to be more sever, offer closer to a 60-70% chance they will break and run, because nothing could be more terrifying for psykers, especially Eldar.

 

It's nice, but I think that version will fall foul of the minimalist approach.

[Ominous Anonymous]

I've been reading this thread for a bit now and I really appreciate the work done and the discussions carried out. At times I wish we could go a little bit further but I agree that would amount to wishlisting and should wait for another time.

 

One thing I'd like to have considered: what about removing the need to have an Inquisitor on the battlefield to field an Imperial Assassin? Fluffwise I could see an Inquisitor not taking part in the battle but viewing it from afar while the Grey Knights and the henchmen under his command do the fighting. Gamewise every time I want to have an Eversor (or Culuxes, my absolute favorite assassin and one that would work the best with other Fearless units) run with my Grey Knights I need to buy an Inquisitor.

 

...and a retinue so he's not just a free kill point.

 

...and give them some guns too so they can fight for themselves.

 

And suddenly when I only wanted an Assassin in my mobile mechanized or footslogger army I've suddenly been forced to play as a gun line to make use of my Inquisitor and his gun servitors. Now, if this were to happen I understand that perhaps the costs of each individual assassin might have to go up so they aren't so cheap for that they do or something that would balance out the loss of the Inq. requirement, but would allow Grey Knight players to use some Elite slots and add some variables to their army.

 

(I'm mostly sure this hasn't been brought up at some point in the discussion but I apologize in advance if it has.)

[Dilgar]

I've been reading this thread for a bit now and I really appreciate the work done and the discussions carried out. At times I wish we could go a little bit further but I agree that would amount to wishlisting and should wait for another time.

 

One thing I'd like to have considered: what about removing the need to have an Inquisitor on the battlefield to field an Imperial Assassin? Fluffwise I could see an Inquisitor not taking part in the battle but viewing it from afar while the Grey Knights and the henchmen under his command do the fighting. Gamewise every time I want to have an Eversor (or Culuxes, my absolute favorite assassin) run with my Grey Knights I need to buy an Inquisitor.

 

...and a retinue so he's not just a free kill point.

 

...and give them some guns too so they can fight for themselves.

 

And suddenly when I only wanted an Assassin in my mobile mechanized or footslogger army I've suddenly been forced to play as a gunlineto make use of my Inquisitor and his gun servitors. Now, if this were to happen I understand that perhaps the costs of each individual assassin might have to go up so they aren't so cheap for that they do or something that would balance out the loss of the Inq. requirement, but would allow Grey Knight players to use some Elite slots and add some variables to their army.

 

(I'm mostly sure this hasn't been brought up at some point in the discussion but I apologize in advance if it has.)

 

 

Good point! I sure do want to field an assasin without having to buy a darn Inqvisitor+retinue instead of another scoring GK unit :F

[Aidoneus]

Haha... I knew this would happen, and it's completely my fault. We have focused entirely on assassins, and forgotten everything else. But you know what? Maybe that's not a bad thing. Instead of trying to juggle five or six issues at once, let's get this resolved, and come back to other stuff later.

 

You've missed my point somewhat. We still pay for these things, just as part of our base cost. The bar on what you can get for that amount of points has simply been raised, as it has with Space Marines. We still pay 25pts per PAGK for our abilities, we just get more for that 25pts.

Granted. But consider this. To keep power level the same (because I read you as saying you're happy with our power level where it is at this point in the project), a positive ability can be balanced in either of two ways: either the points costs can be raised (either basic cost or as an upgrade), or a counter-balancing negative attribute can be added. Your argument is that you don't think raising our costs is fair, because it would inflict a penalty upon us vs every opponent, while the positive ability only works against some. That's completely fair, and I agree 100%. However, given the second option, if we give a negative rule that only affects us vs daemons, then the net result will be power-neutral against both daemons and non-daemons.

 

 

"A Breach in the Warp

The presence of a Culexus Assassin in the region creates a disturbing spot were the warp appears to be completely absent. To a psyker viewing the area with their abilities, touching such an area unprepared is a nasty shock, as it is anaethma to their abilities. Psykers who are affected by this 'blank spot' find it difficult to re-focus themselves for some time.

For every psyker in the enemy army, roll a D6. On a 4+, that psyker makes all psychic tests at -1 Ld for the rest of the game. Additionally, you must also make rolls for all friendly psykers which have been deployed within 24" of the Culexus. If the Culexus comes on from reserve, no friendly psykers are affected.

I think you missed slightly what I was after. The Culexus kicks enough psyker butt already. Now we need to make him a valuable alternative when enemy psykers aren't present.

Agreed. The Culexus is already a decent value if you know you'll be facing psykers, and more so if you know you'll be facing multiple psykers (eldar and tyranids spring instantly to mind). What we want is something, that fits the fluff, which will make the assassin still at least worth taking against armies that don't feature psykers. That is, we want the assassin to be worth taking in an all-comers list. The fluff actually makes quite a big deal out of the Culexus' de-moralizing abilities, and that's something that works against everyone, so it seems like the perfect way to get what we want.

 

I went back over the Culexus entry, and I've already found one area where we can make a significant and simple change: The soulless entry. Instead of making models within range leadership 7, why not impose a penalty? Say...-3 leadership? Same effect against the majority of psyker units, but much, much nastier against garden variety troops.

This isn't bad. Most foes are going to be Ld 9 or 10 (or fearless) anyway, so it's not a big change, but against those enemies which are Ld 7 or 8 to begin with, this could severely destabilize their lines. I also don't think it's too powerful, since it still only works within 12" of the assassin, the assassin is still relatively easy to kill, and (lest we forget) it affects our own units as well (so Culexus in an IG army becomes a very risky venture, but with GK is fine).

 

Additionally, the power is synergetic with the army, not only because GKs and Inq Lords are more-or-less immune, but because then the Culexus will be able to help against daemons, thus fitting its fluff in that respect. Notice, it won't do anything to daemons on its own, only in conjunction with Rites of Exorcism (or Coteaz).

 

3) may "open the eye" of his psyocculum, creating some sort of powerful targeted Ld attack (not to cause wounds, but perhaps pinning, permanent Ld modifier, or something of that nature)

-seems to capture fluff next to his entry

I think you're on to something here.

 

How about: "Instead of firing negative energy blasts with the Animus Speculum, the Culexus may instead choose to fully expose it's baleful eye. Draw a single 36" line [or some other distance] from the Culexus in any direction. Any unit which the line passes through [and has line of sight to the Culexus?] must immediately pass a leadership test or fall back directly away from the Culexus. Any model encountering dangerous terrain or an enemy unit counts as destroyed, as per the normal rules."

I'm not sure about this idea. For one, killing units by pushing them into terrain is not only really powerful, it's unprecedented. Second, the culexus currently can't affect anything more than 12" away, so 36" is a big boost. And third, although I suggested it, I'm not sure I'm keen on the idea of another shooting power in any form. The culexus already has two; does it really need more?

 

Right now, I'm leaning towards the -3Ld, although something Ld-based in combat is still a good possibility, since that's an area where the culexus is incredibly weak right now. I think a large part of my thinking here is that the culexus seems to specialize in short-range effects, and particularly area-effects. It seems more in keeping to stick to that. Thoughts?

 

 

A Breach in the Warp

But lets not forget that these guys are anti-demon as well as they carry the tradition of the sisters of silence, its very tough for a daemon to stay on the material plane inside the null field of a blank much less a super blank and Occulum shots should pretty much instantly destabilize daemons what with the Necron anti-warp tech and all.

True, but keep in mind that the GKs already have a TON of anti-daemon stuff. I'm not sure we need any more specifically anti-daemon stuff. Also, keep in mind that, in conjunction with Rites (or Coteaz), any Ld ability the Culexus has will affect daemons, so we can cover that aspect of its fluff that way.

 

 

I've been reading this thread for a bit now and I really appreciate the work done and the discussions carried out. At times I wish we could go a little bit further but I agree that would amount to wishlisting and should wait for another time.

Thanks for the support! Glad you finally spoke up too; I always love to hear as many opinions as possible.

 

One thing I'd like to have considered: what about removing the need to have an Inquisitor on the battlefield to field an Imperial Assassin? Fluffwise I could see an Inquisitor not taking part in the battle but viewing it from afar while the Grey Knights and the henchmen under his command do the fighting. Gamewise every time I want to have an Eversor (or Culuxes, my absolute favorite assassin and one that would work the best with other Fearless units) run with my Grey Knights I need to buy an Inquisitor.

 

...and a retinue so he's not just a free kill point.

 

...and give them some guns too so they can fight for themselves.

 

And suddenly when I only wanted an Assassin in my mobile mechanized or footslogger army I've suddenly been forced to play as a gun line to make use of my Inquisitor and his gun servitors. Now, if this were to happen I understand that perhaps the costs of each individual assassin might have to go up so they aren't so cheap for that they do or something that would balance out the loss of the Inq. requirement, but would allow Grey Knight players to use some Elite slots and add some variables to their army.

This has not been brought up before, and I agree that it is something worth considering. I think the original intent was to discourage assassins from showing up in every Imperial list out there, which I can appreciate. Taking an inquisitor isn't as much of a hardship for us as it is for Space Marines. Having said that, you do make a very persuasive argument, so I can see it from both sides.

 

Power balance aside, I like the idea of non-inquisitorial lists being able to take a lone assassin in their force, without needing to use up a valuable HQ slot for an Inq Lord (which is the only way they can get an assassin, thank you very much FAQs!). From a fluff standpoint, assassins are sent out on solo missions; they aren't chaperoned around by Inquisitors while they do their work.

 

The question is, will removing that requirement be fair, power-wise? And if we do it with Assasinorum Operatives, should we also do it for Deathcults?

[FunkyEntropy]

I think we're safest just going with the updated soulless rule. Minimal change, but decent impact. I'm not particularly wedded to the extra shooting option, I just kind of took your original idea and ran with it.

 

----------

 

I don't see why we can't have the assassin acting as a lone operative, provided there's a cost to it. Extra point cost, maybe?

 

I'm leaning against doing the same for Death Cultists. Going from what fluff I've read, they always seem to show up in tow of an Inq.

[Prathios]

I think we're safest just going with the updated soulless rule. Minimal change, but decent impact. I'm not particularly wedded to the extra shooting option, I just kind of took your original idea and ran with it.

 

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I don't see why we can't have the assassin acting as a lone operative, provided there's a cost to it. Extra point cost, maybe?

 

I'm leaning against doing the same for Death Cultists. Going from what fluff I've read, they always seem to show up in tow of an Inq.

 

Eh, works for me.

[Ominous Anonymous]

The question is, will removing that requirement be fair, power-wise? And if we do it with Assasinorum Operatives, should we also do it for Deathcults?

 

I see Death Cult Assassins as more of an extension of an Inquisitor's retinue, owing to things like Dark Heresy, though I could also see them being sent out without needing the Inquisitor to look over them.

 

As for making up for removing the requirement, why not bump up the points for each assassin by say...10 or 20 points? 20 is what we pay currently for a regular Inquisitor anyways, though making a Callidus cost 140 to use might be a bit much. Should we also do things like increase the assassin's base WS or I? I could see the Eversor getting a bump in WS so he lands more hits, or the Callidus getting a bump in initiative so she has a better chance of going before her target in combat, etc. etc, all to match the Vindicare getting a bump in Ballistic skill.

[Aidoneus]

Couple issues, that should be kept separate:

 

1) Should Deathcults be allowed sans inquisitor?

-consensus seems to be no, and I agree. this seems settled

 

2) Should Assassinorum Operatives be allowed sans inquisitor?

-consensus seems to be yes, and I agree. this seems settled

 

3) Should Operatives pay a cost for this change?

-this should not be assumed, but discussed

 

4) If they should pay a cost, what's fair?

-keep in mind, we don't want to punish Inq players who are taking an Inq anyway. I'd say no more than 5-10pts

 

5) Should other assassins get stat-boosts?

-this can be discussed, but I'm very hesitant. Keep in mind, the BS boost on a vindicare has very little in-game effect (he hits once more out of 36 attempts). Other such stat boosts, to I or WS, would have a far greater impact. Also, the Callidus and Eversor were already deemed worth taking, unlike the vindicare who needed a power boost

[Thaelion Hexis]

I'm leaning against doing the same for Death Cultists. Going from what fluff I've read, they always seem to show up in tow of an Inq.

 

Agreed. Whilst Imperial Assassins are sent on lone missions approved by the High Lords themselves, Death Cults are usually recruited by the Inquisitor and as such will most likely be following his lead. I also can not imagine the likes of Grey Knight/Space Marine commanders directing or controlling such individuals, mostly by choice. Inquisitors, on the other hand, can delve further into the darker side of the conflict.

 

Obviously a similar idea with Daemonhosts.

[Ominous Anonymous]

Couple issues, that should be kept separate:

 

1) Should Deathcults be allowed sans inquisitor?

-consensus seems to be no, and I agree. this seems settled

 

Agreed. Taking an Inquisitor should give you access to both a funky retinue as a firebase (or CC-specialized if we decide to go forward with the +1 to a stat which I also agree with) and, if you're not using up the Elite slots on both an Imperial Assassin and Grey Knight Terminators that aren't part of an HQ's retinue, then also allow them to use Elite slots to field units of DCAs.

 

2) Should Assassinorum Operatives be allowed sans inquisitor?

-consensus seems to be yes, and I agree. this seems settled

 

I think they don't need an inquisitor. More specifically - a lot of Grey Knight players don't need him, either. ^_^

 

4) If they should pay a cost, what's fair?

-keep in mind, we don't want to punish Inq players who are taking an Inq anyway. I'd say no more than 5-10pts

 

I'd say 5pts for the Eversor and Culuxes, bringing them to 100 and 110 points respectively, keep Vindicare at where he is, and maybe bump Callidus up to 125 or 130?

 

5) Should other assassins get stat-boosts?

-this can be discussed, but I'm very hesitant. Keep in mind, the BS boost on a vindicare has very little in-game effect (he hits once more out of 36 attempts). Other such stat boosts, to I or WS, would have a far greater impact. Also, the Callidus and Eversor were already deemed worth taking, unlike the vindicare who needed a power boost

 

I can see initiative being the most important stat as it allows you to go first before another unit, and would probably be overpowered if a Callidus had Initiative 6 and struck before most HQs (though this would be in line with her job). Ballistic Skill past 5 and before 8 is probably not that big of a deal as you say, so that's fine.

 

The Eversor getting another WS wouldn't change how it does against units of troops (its main target in most games) as it already hits on threes, but it would be a little more defensive against SM Captains who now only hit on 4's like the Eversor. In this case both game wise (meant to chew through units, not HQs) and fluffwise (Eversor strikes me as being good in combat but not quite that good) I would say Eversor shouldn't get the extra WS.

[DEMOLISHER]

Couple issues, that should be kept separate:

 

1) Should Deathcults be allowed sans inquisitor?

-consensus seems to be no, and I agree. this seems settled

 

I feel that they should not be allowed with OUT an Inq either from the HQ or Elitie side.

 

2) Should Assassinorum Operatives be allowed sans inquisitor?

-consensus seems to be yes, and I agree. this seems settled

I say no too this one purly from a fluf point.

Can you see a GK GM saying..."That deamond lord is too tough for us. *snaps fingers* I know

call up on of those Vindicare assasins, He can head shot it while we hide in the Land Raider!" ^_^

3) Should Operatives pay a cost for this change?

-this should not be assumed, but discussed

No

 

5) Should other assassins get stat-boosts?

-this can be discussed, but I'm very hesitant. Keep in mind, the BS boost on a vindicare has very little in-game effect (he hits once more out of 36 attempts). Other such stat boosts, to I or WS, would have a far greater impact. Also, the Callidus and Eversor were already deemed worth taking, unlike the vindicare who needed a power boost

I don't want too touch that one with a ten foot null rod. :)

 

I know I've come late too this, but I just want too put my two cents in from time too time.

Not trying too step on anyones toes either. :D

[Ominous Anonymous]

2) Should Assassinorum Operatives be allowed sans inquisitor?

-consensus seems to be yes, and I agree. this seems settled

I say no too this one purly from a fluf point.

Can you see a GK GM saying..."That deamond lord is too tough for us. *snaps fingers* I know

call up on of those Vindicare assasins, He can head shot it while we hide in the Land Raider!" :D

 

Hey, it's either that or a recreation of our first day at grade school, outside with your mother waiting for the bus and she's telling you to behave and you're like "Moooooooooom :o " but instead it's some decrepit old Inquisitor explaining which heretics to kill to an Eversor and he's like "WRYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY... :nuke: "

 

You're right, at first glance it doesn't seem proper, but then from a gaming perspective it really limits what units we can field in what types of armies.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

I

think you missed slightly what I was after. The Culexus kicks enough psyker butt already. Now we need to make him a valuable alternative when enemy psykers aren't present.

 

Why? It's his job to tackle enemy psykers, why would you take him for anything else? It's like getting an electrician to fix your plumbing.

 

True, but keep in mind that the GKs already have a TON of anti-daemon stuff. I'm not sure we need any more specifically anti-daemon stuff. Also, keep in mind that, in conjunction with Rites (or Coteaz), any Ld ability the Culexus has will affect daemons, so we can cover that aspect of its fluff that way.

 

What about the Radicals? Not every DH army will include GKs, we can't operate on the principle that everyone will take them. You'd be fixing the GK list but breaking the Radical list.

 

2) Should Assassinorum Operatives be allowed sans inquisitor?

-consensus seems to be yes, and I agree. this seems settled

 

3) Should Operatives pay a cost for this change?

-this should not be assumed, but discussed

 

How about a rule that makes a lone operative Always an Independent Character, ie benefit from other units' special rules and can't use transports? If you take an Inquisitor as well, then the Assassin can do all those things, making him that bit more flexible?

[FunkyEntropy]

I

think you missed slightly what I was after. The Culexus kicks enough psyker butt already. Now we need to make him a valuable alternative when enemy psykers aren't present.

 

Why? It's his job to tackle enemy psykers, why would you take him for anything else? It's like getting an electrician to fix your plumbing.

 

It's to make him a more attractive option. Very few people field him otherwise. Enhancing his anti-morale abilities makes him more useful outside the specialist anti-psyker role, and would serve to not punish players for including him in an all-comers list.

 

Plus, we've already enhanced his anti-pysker capabilities by rendering him immune to all psychic effects, both direct and indirect.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

It's to make him a more attractive option. Very few people field him otherwise. Enhancing his anti-morale abilities makes him more useful outside the specialist anti-psyker role, and would serve to not punish players for including him in an all-comers list.

 

Plus, we've already enhanced his anti-pysker capabilities by rendering him immune to all psychic effects, both direct and indirect.

 

In that case, can we make his anti-psyker abilities effective (at least in part) against non-psyker units, in the same way that The Aegis and The Shrouding aren't just effective against Daemon units?

[Skyhawk]

I would say a very big YES to the (-3 Ld) for Cullexus.

For now it just seems like everything Ld 7 and below is just too stupid to be afraid of that big, ugly, muscled, black KILLER charging right for them.

The cullexus will be my only Assassin to field when I just get my greedy little claws on the model itself.