++Codex: Fire, Steel and Zeal++

[Kurasuke]

the re-roll is a nice thing for us. and i think it should stay.

I rather have it then hit on 3+ ...

 

and we do pay for it with the vow. but it's a no brainer most of the time.

 

I don't know how balanced it is in this coded to have. but no one I know have complained about the BT codex when I played and that I get a re-roll.

and GW thought it were an OK thing to give us for some reason so ...

 

the matter need some thought =)

 

one thing is to make the other vows better in some way as that would not interfere with the core rulings.

or make more of them ...

GW didn't really give us a re-roll. It gave us a 3+ in close combat then changed the core rules which made it a re-roll. It also made the Chaplains a lot less worthwhile.

[Brother Hadafix]

the re-roll is a nice thing for us. and i think it should stay.

I rather have it then hit on 3+ ...

 

and we do pay for it with the vow. but it's a no brainer most of the time.

 

I don't know how balanced it is in this coded to have. but no one I know have complained about the BT codex when I played and that I get a re-roll.

and GW thought it were an OK thing to give us for some reason so ...

 

the matter need some thought =)

 

one thing is to make the other vows better in some way as that would not interfere with the core rulings.

or make more of them ...

 

I understand where Siggy was coming from when he changed the vows, and in part agree with the changes. IMO they could have all been put at 50 points and powered up the cheaper vows (UTHOTE giving FNP instead of a 6+ save), put powering down a Home Grown codex is more likely to get consent in playing. And hands down for giving it so much thought.

[Brother Chaplain Ryld]

Thanks for the playtest Ryld :tu: Now you've lured them into a false sense of security, you can unleash a Biker Army of Doom with Varrikan led terminators and the super Land Raider Crusader :)

 

Funny you mention that. I have been given 7 bikers, 2 preds and a DA dread by a mate who hadn't played 40K for years. Inspired by Titan136's bikes, they are soaking in the Simple Green and I am awaiting some BT heads and torso fronts from Ebay for my own bike squad.

I hope to do a bit more testing on this codex over the next few weeks. And I will be trying a variety of units.

[USAFRaptor]

hey Sig could you post PDF in the forums or download section? that would be sweet. im a relative noob to BT but i won a game against nids and won kill point wise 7-2

[Mordekiem]

GW didn't really give us a re-roll. It gave us a 3+ in close combat then changed the core rules which made it a re-roll. It also made the Chaplains a lot less worthwhile.

Maybe the chaplain needs to change instead of the vow? Perhaps the Chaplain should give his squad a different bonus such as hitting on a 3+ or +1 str or intiative on the charge?

 

The other problem I had with the 3+ is it only worked when our troops were fighting other troops. Our ICs did not benefit nor did anyone fighting an IC. Preferred enemy actually improves our ICs which, IMO, is as it should be. Templar are better fighters than your average marine so our ICs should be better fighters than the typical marine IC.

[Kurasuke]

GW didn't really give us a re-roll. It gave us a 3+ in close combat then changed the core rules which made it a re-roll. It also made the Chaplains a lot less worthwhile.

Maybe the chaplain needs to change instead of the vow? Perhaps the Chaplain should give his squad a different bonus such as hitting on a 3+ or +1 str or intiative on the charge?

 

The other problem I had with the 3+ is it only worked when our troops were fighting other troops. Our ICs did not benefit nor did anyone fighting an IC. Preferred enemy actually improves our ICs which, IMO, is as it should be. Templar are better fighters than your average marine so our ICs should be better fighters than the typical marine IC.

The rule definitely is better now. I would definitely support giving the Chaplain the 3+.

[Xelloss]

I'm surprised nobody talk about the crusader squad... (maybe later I will have other things to say about the rest of the codex, but this is the first thing I checked).

 

- 25 pts for a powerfist with only 1A ?!?

- I'm not a really great fan of the "10 guys" thing. For the vanilla SM, they have 1 sergent, 1 special weapon and 1 heavy weapon, and can split into combat squad : sergent with power weapon and assault special weapon on ane squad, heavy weapon in the other, or sergent alone and heavy weapon + plasma on the other. This is manageable.

Unbreakable 10-man squad existed previously, and was transformed into 5-10 models for a reason...

I understand the point is to prevent mini-devs, but I would have found an other way to do it.

[Anon]

I agree completly with xelloss. The pointcost of powerfists and powerweapons are too high, but not only for crusader squads. BT marines have only one attack on the contrary to SM Sergeants who can take them, so I would stay with the pts of our codex.

 

Another thing is, why isn't there a sergeant with PW in Terminator Armoured Household anymore like in our codex? I quite liked this. This made this squad useful.

 

Helbrecht: I quite like the new rule Master of the Crusade. But when looking at the characters in codex SM it seems a litte bit less. Add the ability to reroll reserve rolls or one reserve roll per game and it makes him a little bit more helpful.

 

Other than that I really like your work!

[Brother Hadafix]

The issue of the higher costing PF and PW were discussed extensively on the C:Eternal Crusade. I agree that the point cost is to high for the crusader squads, yet, this is more to help get whoever your playing against to agree to the codex then a properly made decision made on balance, as was the decision to make the Assault Marines pay full price for the Storm Shield.

 

As much of C:FSZ is taken from C:EC it will also suffer from these decisions, though Siggy has made a good effort to make up for them.

[Marshal Rohr]

BT's don't have sergeants. Ever. It was an oversight that it was in there to begin with.

[Xelloss]

as was the decision to make the Assault Marines pay full price for the Storm Shield.

Right I forget about this one.

 

- 1A powerfist souldn't cost 25pts.

- 2A powerweapon shouldn't cost 15pts

- 15 pts for a stormshield on a 18pts marine ? Better take a new one.

- Cost of the sergent in assault marine squad (didn't check for the others) isn't deduced with the suppression of the sergent. Not really important, but still.

 

- plasma canon for 10pts seems really low to me. Is there a reason for the heavy drop in cost ?

- plasmagun for 15pts is silly. They were cheaper for a reason : with an heavy weapon you were often shooting further than 24", and with a melee weapon you wanted to assault.

 

- only up to two meltabombs for assault marine is really few. (but then with hitting on the rear 5+ melta bomb were quite overkilling). Maybe up to three ?

[Brother Hadafix]

as was the decision to make the Assault Marines pay full price for the Storm Shield.

Right I forget about this one.

 

- 1A powerfist souldn't cost 25pts.

- 2A powerweapon shouldn't cost 15pts

- 15 pts for a stormshield on a 18pts marine ? Better take a new one.

- Cost of the sergent in assault marine squad (didn't check for the others) isn't deduced with the suppression of the sergent. Not really important, but still.

 

- plasma canon for 10pts seems really low to me. Is there a reason for the heavy drop in cost ?

- plasmagun for 15pts is silly. They were cheaper for a reason : with an heavy weapon you were often shooting further than 24", and with a melee weapon you wanted to assault.

 

- only up to two meltabombs for assault marine is really few. (but then with hitting on the rear 5+ melta bomb were quite overkilling). Maybe up to three ?

 

I didnt check, but is there now a Sargent in the AM squad? :cuss! Yeah the 15 point SS on the 18 point marine is not something I would ever agree to unless it makes it into the C:BT 5ed codex... Same really for the other bits you have mentioned. But for a "home grown" codex that you want to use what choice is there? Yells of broken and people arguing the rules untill you point out the rules as written still happens. I get called sometimes on the EC's right to auto move base to base with an enemy IC, and I was also called on the Fearless in Assault" rule when charging a Night Bringer.

 

Still think Siggy did a good job over all though. You can choose to use this or not.

[Sigismund Himself]

hey Sig could you post PDF in the forums or download section? that would be sweet. im a relative noob to BT but i won a game against nids and won kill point wise 7-2

Thanks for the playtest. Did any particular units shine? Paintner is currently working on a really nice PDF and once that's finished, I'll try and get that hosted here. If you want one for playtesting, PM me and I'll give you a copy of a less complete piece.

 

Changing the Chaplain's bonus is an interesting idea. It would be really good if someone could do a mathhammer comparison of a 10 man Crusader squad vs a 10 man tactical squad (unupgraded sarge) with the Preferred Enemy vs hitting on 3+, to see which is more effective and if the price needs to be changed if a switch is made.

 

I'm not a really great fan of the "10 guys" thing. For the vanilla SM, they have 1 sergent, 1 special weapon and 1 heavy weapon, and can split into combat squad : sergent with power weapon and assault special weapon on ane squad, heavy weapon in the other, or sergent alone and heavy weapon + plasma on the other. This is manageable.

Unbreakable 10-man squad existed previously, and was transformed into 5-10 models for a reason...

I understand the point is to prevent mini-devs, but I would have found an other way to do it.

I don't particularly see a problem here with the current wording. I think it works quite well in preventing min/maxing with the mini-devs while still allowing all the options for larger squads.

 

Helbrecht: I quite like the new rule Master of the Crusade. But when looking at the characters in codex SM it seems a litte bit less. Add the ability to reroll reserve rolls or one reserve roll per game and it makes him a little bit more helpful.

I'll have a look at this. I don't want to make him too special, like on the level of Calgar.

 

Another thing is, why isn't there a sergeant with PW in Terminator Armoured Household anymore like in our codex? I quite liked this. This made this squad useful.

It seemed a bit odd that we copied the codex formation for Terminators (which also led to the rest of the changes) and that the squad also had a sergeant, so I removed that guy.

 

- 1A powerfist souldn't cost 25pts.

- 2A powerweapon shouldn't cost 15pts

- 15 pts for a stormshield on a 18pts marine ? Better take a new one.

These two issues have been extensively debated here and here as part of Codex: Eternal Crusade, upon which this was based. I really don't want to get dragged into the debate again over these issues (as you can see, they've already gone for several pages before) ^_^ In the end, it's what I think is fair and what is more likely to get accepted by other players as a homegrown codex.

 

 

- Cost of the sergent in assault marine squad (didn't check for the others) isn't deduced with the suppression of the sergent. Not really important, but still.

I'll have a look at this.

 

- only up to two meltabombs for assault marine is really few. (but then with hitting on the rear 5+ melta bomb were quite overkilling). Maybe up to three ?

C:SM only allows the sergeant to take meltabombs. So it's a bit of a compromise.

 

As always, this is just what I think is fair for the Templars' players and to their opponents. I think it is balanced and that most other players will accept it. If it doesn't meet your views of what the codex should be, feel free to change it for your own use. If you want 10pt storm shields, go for it. If you want cheaper power weapons, change it.

[Xelloss]

These two issues have been extensively debated here and here as part of Codex: Eternal Crusade, upon which this was based.

 

Sorry I didn't read this topic, I was directed directly to fire steel and zeal :P

 

I quickly see the discussion (more or less "*we put everything like vanilla codex* - Hum, I disagr... - NO !!! Everything in line ! Dot !". I don't really see the point of discussing if everything is already decided...)

 

If people wants to use this codex with those prices, fine with them. But 1A for a powerfist is not only -1A, it is a really huge decrease of efficiance, as adding throws help to fit toward the average probability. For the SS question, 15pts is not "fair", because the guy who hold it is basically different from the vanilla ones. It is interesting to keep an expensive guy alive by giving him an invulnerable save. For a basic model, the more expensive he is, the less resilient he becomes (to put it simply, 1 more assault BT is roughly equivalent to 1 SS, an additional squad will always be better than 5 SS.

 

C:F,S&Z is an homemade codex. There will always be dumbs that would refuse to play against it, how balanced it can be. Why would we want to play with them ? Why giving us handicaps to "prove" our codex is not "broken", just different ?

[Mordekiem]

In the new codex pretty much all powerfists are 25 points regardless of if you have one attack or 3 or 4. Same with storm shields.

 

IMO if you likey the new toys then you gotta pay the new prices. :)

 

The lack of vet sgts (not only the +1 A, but the +1 LD, too) is a whole different issue that I hope will one day be addressed, but I don't think any balanced codex at this time is going to be able to change it much and be accepted by the general populace. Same thing with trying to take cheap powerfists, powerweapons, and storm shields.

[Von Richthofen]

It seems to me that in the older SM codex, Veteran Sergeants could buy a power fist for 15 points... which is the same as what we paid when our two codexes were contemporary. Now that the new marine codex ups PFs to 25 points (regardless of # of attacks/wounds) it makes sense for us to have the same cost, -1 attack or not. You're paying for the fist, not for how good you are with it.

 

Not to mention... sure your fist costs you 10 extra points... but you get free frags (worth 10+ right there) and krak grenades on top of that...

[Ugrush]

Firstly I would say thanks for alle the great job so far! I don't agreed with all the changes, but I'll leave it with that.

 

I've begun converting a copy of the old Black Templar data file, to the program Army Builder by wolflair, to include updates in the C:F,S & Z.

 

I'll playtest it myself in the coming weeks too, and will report back with my results :P

 

I can't promise anything on the data update for Army Builder, as I begin exams in a week, but we'll see what I get done ;) So far I've converted all the heavy tanks, the crusader squad, walkers and the emperor's champion.

[Drac0]

Firstly I would say thanks for alle the great job so far! I don't agreed with all the changes, but I'll leave it with that.

 

I've begun converting a copy of the old Black Templar data file, to the program Army Builder by wolflair, to include updates in the C:F,S & Z.

 

I'll playtest it myself in the coming weeks too, and will report back with my results :D

 

I can't promise anything on the data update for Army Builder, as I begin exams in a week, but we'll see what I get done :lol: So far I've converted all the heavy tanks, the crusader squad, walkers and the emperor's champion.

 

When you're done with the file is there any chance of sharing it?

[Ugrush]

Of course I'll share it! It will take som more time though. Got Sword Bretheren Termies done yesterday. I just need to figure out a little thing about how the program works, and then I got PA SB done too :)

[Brother Hadafix]

It seems to me that in the older SM codex, Veteran Sergeants could buy a power fist for 15 points... which is the same as what we paid when our two codexes were contemporary. Now that the new marine codex ups PFs to 25 points (regardless of # of attacks/wounds) it makes sense for us to have the same cost, -1 attack or not. You're paying for the fist, not for how good you are with it.

 

Not to mention... sure your fist costs you 10 extra points... but you get free frags (worth 10+ right there) and krak grenades on top of that...

 

Going on that logic my marines as they are should be cheaper, and no, not every weapon in the C:SM is standard points for each unit using it regardless of how good they are with it.

 

I wont take this further unless challenged as there was a lot said in C:EC and going on in amicus.

 

Xellos: It was more or less like that... and that it didnt turn out "fair" but, as pointed out there were cries of broken as soon as it got to the AMs getting a carried on discount.

[Ugrush]

With the Marshal, in C:F,S & Z, it says as in th C:SM except for the holy orb, does that also include the honour guard?

 

Sorry if this has been aswered before.

[paintner]

With the Marshal, in C:F,S & Z, it says as in th C:SM except for the holy orb, does that also include the honour guard?

 

Sorry if this has been aswered before.

 

 

if you keep reading there is an entry about the marshals household ...

that is the honour guard ... rules as stated in the webdex ...

 

in the .pdf we are making there will be a referance to the pagenumber and rules for the 'honor guard' or retinue or bodyguard or whatever name there might be for it =)

[Kurasuke]

It seems to me that in the older SM codex, Veteran Sergeants could buy a power fist for 15 points... which is the same as what we paid when our two codexes were contemporary. Now that the new marine codex ups PFs to 25 points (regardless of # of attacks/wounds) it makes sense for us to have the same cost, -1 attack or not. You're paying for the fist, not for how good you are with it.

 

Not to mention... sure your fist costs you 10 extra points... but you get free frags (worth 10+ right there) and krak grenades on top of that...

Points are a method for balancing the power of units/models. A powerfist in the hands of an initiate is less powerful than in the hands of a Veteran Sergeant. A powerfist in the hands on an Imperial Guardsman would be less powerful than a Space Marine- would you argue that he pay 25 points as well?

[Venerable Rhadamanthus]

[

Going on that logic my marines as they are should be cheaper, and no, not every weapon in the C:SM is standard points for each unit using it regardless of how good they are with it.

 

I wont take this further unless challenged as there was a lot said in C:EC and going on in amicus.

 

Xellos: It was more or less like that... and that it didnt turn out "fair" but, as pointed out there were cries of broken as soon as it got to the AMs getting a carried on discount.

 

You are mostly right BH...not every weapon is standard points...but a significant portion are. I'm currently entering every unit from the 3rd ed SW Codex, the 4th ed BA, BT, DA, SM Codex, and the 5th ed SM Codex into an excel spreadsheet to track costs of every piece of wargear/options to follow and prove this trend. Plus show the trend that most wargear keeps a solid trend between divergent Codex's as well to back the theory of upgrading and reconfiguring costs of wargear due to the new SM Codex coming out.

 

I will share my findings tomorrow when I finish.

 

A brief example is PF's...every unit pays 25 pts no matter what, except the Chaplain. Who apparently gets a break for his Crozius. (and Terminators, but that's built in to the cost so it can't be tracked)

 

And SS's...everyone pays 15pts (including the Librarian)...(again except Termies).

 

More when I'm finished.

[Venerable Rhadamanthus]

Points are a method for balancing the power of units/models. A powerfist in the hands of an initiate is less powerful than in the hands of a Veteran Sergeant. A powerfist in the hands on an Imperial Guardsman would be less powerful than a Space Marine- would you argue that he pay 25 points as well?

 

 

Given the way C:SM is setting precedent..yes. Though I would say not so much that they pay 25pts...but that a Catachan Veteran Sgt pays the same as a DKoK Heroic Senior Officer (or whatever terms they use in the new C:IG).