++Codex: Fire, Steel and Zeal++

[Brother Chaplain Darius]

Whenever people use those red and bone colored banners for their quotes, all I can see is advice dog.

http://www.neosoft.se/dev/advicedog/advicedog.php?line1=Heresy%20does%20not%20beget%20death&line2=Heresy%20is%20death

[Castellan Furias]

Hail Brothers.!

 

I just read through the Word document, of this codex, and i have a few things.

 

this is for me prolly the most importent for me. you havent given our EC the ability of the standard marines Company Champion. - our champion can attack, but can also be attacked - which the Company champion can choose not to.

 

I dont know the rules name, since i dont own a C:SM myself.

 

i think that, you have done a good job making "hero" characters. but id still say you need like a Sword bretheren Assault Squad (1per army) - which would get "Heroic intervention" - or make a hero assault initiate that would give his unit the ability...

 

ive noticed that you have ALOT of Stormshields and Iron Halos. Id have to suggest replacing some of those options with the BT Combat shield (and change it so the invul safe is also against shooty). Fx on the sword bretheren you have removed the Combat shield option, which i think is a huge flaw, mostly because i only take Combat shields, if i take inv saves, simply because that gives me a higher killrate.

 

i also think you should remove the points cost on Suffer Not Vow - since its our worst vow, even revised, (it could effect vehicles aswell) - i wouldnt take it for 110 points, when AAC is now 130 points - that would be Clean foolish.

 

The ECs armor of Faith... why not just say its as p.31 in C:BT - that would also spare you an intire Iron Halo.

 

Why does a Silly Castellan come equipped with a Iron Halo, seems kinda overpowered to me, id again give him a BT combat shield...

 

You also give each and all of the chaplains a holy relic. thats seems overpowered to me since earlier we could only bring 1 - and 2 if we brought grimaldus...

 

i think you should give grimaldus a special rule, that would state that in any round of combat, shooting or CC - Grimaldus could only suffer 2 wounds no matter how many unsaved wounds he would take. - just to get him back up to speed.

 

And on a last notice... The marshals household comes equipped with a Bolter and a bolt pistol... then he may either exchange his bolter for a Close Combat Weapon or a Bike... - Soh ? that means if he choose the bike ? we get a marine with only a bolt pistol and nothing else ?

 

What about making a special char that would give units outflanking, or scout, or different smaller skills, like the C:SM or C:IG ?!

[Sigismund Himself]

this is for me prolly the most importent for me. you havent given our EC the ability of the standard marines Company Champion. - our champion can attack, but can also be attacked - which the Company champion can choose not to.

Not sure what you mean. If you mean he can be singled out because he is an IC, I see no problem with that.

 

but id still say you need like a Sword bretheren Assault Squad (1per army) - which would get "Heroic intervention" - or make a hero assault initiate that would give his unit the ability...

I've already given one special character giving the abilities of Heroic Intervention, so I'm avoiding duplicating it. I've already included Sword Brethren Bikers, which I thought was better than merely including Vanguard.

 

Fx on the sword bretheren you have removed the Combat shield option, which i think is a huge flaw, mostly because i only take Combat shields, if i take inv saves, simply because that gives me a higher killrate.

Combat shields have been removed so that Uphold is more of a choice. Plus the comparative units in C:SM (Sternguard and Vanguard) don't get the option, with the availability of combat shields also being reduced.

 

i also think you should remove the points cost on Suffer Not Vow - since its our worst vow, even revised, (it could effect vehicles aswell) - i wouldnt take it for 110 points, when AAC is now 130 points - that would be Clean foolish.

AAC has been changed so it only works once for each unit, thus its reduced cost. So there's now more of a dilemma. Do I take AAC and only get the benefits once for each unit (that doesn't have a Chaplain anyway) or Uphold to guard against being pinned, plus saving some of those power weapon and power fist wounds in assault or Suffer Not to help kill quicker against opponents that will beat you with their Initiative or Abhor to guard against all those nasty psykers that seem to be popping out of the woodwork?

 

The ECs armor of Faith... why not just say its as p.31 in C:BT - that would also spare you an intire Iron Halo.

Because I wanted to go back to C:A, where the EC had an Iron Halo. Old school. It seemed to make more sense to me, rather than having a suit of armour suddenly give 4+ inv. If Terminator Armour can't give a 4+ inv save and these are technological relics and marvels, why should every Crusade's best power armour suddenly give a better save?

 

Why does a Silly Castellan come equipped with a Iron Halo, seems kinda overpowered to me, id again give him a BT combat shield...

All marine base characters in the new C:SM are about the 100 point mark. It seems a deliberate move by GW, in contrast to previous codeii. So the Castellan needs something to keep him up near the 100 point mark, given his reduced profile. I did consider merely giving him the option to buy it but for the above reasons, I decided against it.

 

You also give each and all of the chaplains a holy relic. thats seems overpowered to me since earlier we could only bring 1 - and 2 if we brought grimaldus...

Look at the new C:SM and then see if it looks overpowered :P The availability of Holy Relics was a deliberate choice. It helps emphasize the Black Templars' zeal.

 

i think you should give grimaldus a special rule, that would state that in any round of combat, shooting or CC - Grimaldus could only suffer 2 wounds no matter how many unsaved wounds he would take. - just to get him back up to speed.

I think Eternal Warrior is more than enough for him and follows in the spirit of his old rules.

 

And on a last notice... The marshals household comes equipped with a Bolter and a bolt pistol... then he may either exchange his bolter for a Close Combat Weapon or a Bike... - Soh ? that means if he choose the bike ? we get a marine with only a bolt pistol and nothing else

I'd suggest re-reading the entry again. There's a whole lot of options there for a marine to swap their bolt pistol for...

 

What about making a special char that would give units outflanking, or scout, or different smaller skills, like the C:SM or C:IG ?!

I thought I had included enough characters :wub: I've given characters skills that I thought matched the Black Templars' characteristics.

[Castellan Furias]

I see you points and they are very valid.

 

However compared to the Space wolfs, and blood angels, ive always come to see the templars as a buffer rather then a direct killer marine.

ive always seen the templars greatest strength as having alot of inv saves, compared to so many other marines. and ive always found that the combat shield being more useful the say the storm shield... even my marshal has a CS.

 

I hadent seen the change in AAC - so thats my fault. Sorry bout that one.

 

Sword bretheren Bikers - well i donno - personally id rather like a Vanguard unit then a biker unit. so personal choice.

 

Heroic intervention - well i see the point in giving it to a unit of assault termies that would rip anything apart that they touch, but why not have it in a Standard marine unit, or an Assault unit - Last would be my Pref.

I highly regard the Vanguard Droppod assault tactic, as one of the most dangerous, since they have the power to avoid mostly anything and still crush whatever they run at. and they are somewhat cheaper then termies... on the second note, Heroic Assault Termies Are awesome.

 

id personally say that grimaldus isnt justified with eternal warrior, since that doesnt allow him to stand up again after the fight, say a unit of Rough Riders jump him, and his squad, all Rough Riders attack Grim - C:BT - Grim dies, then stands up for round 2, lotsa attacks wasted, and he keeps on pounding. C:FSaZ Grimaldus dies. - that why i think he should have his rules tweaked abit.

 

And just to clear up my comment about the marshal, i know the marshal can swap his bolt pistol for other weapons, but he cant have Both a BP, a CCW and a bike...

 

About the EC, you are correct, as i do mean the rule that he cant be singled out, since the Chapter Champion has, i would find it only Fit for someone as Awed as the EMPERORS CHAMPION to have it too... also, it only works until the enemy IC is fallen... then he can be targetet again...

 

About the Black Templar Zeal, and Skills- you could always make a Psycko Chaplain that would give his Unit Rage, and relentless... just to spice things up...

 

Furias

[Sigismund Himself]

However compared to the Space wolfs, and blood angels, ive always come to see the templars as a buffer rather then a direct killer marine.

ive always seen the templars greatest strength as having alot of inv saves, compared to so many other marines. and ive always found that the combat shield being more useful the say the storm shield... even my marshal has a CS.

Fair enough. I've seen Black Templars as a swarm army that hits hard with the first charge and then grinds on through enemy units. Compared to Space Wolves who are use close fire fights before charging in with and Blood Angels who use jump packs to get in your face or otherwise play "Get the Special Characters and Death Company into CC as quick as possible while supporting with rest of army".

 

Heroic intervention - well i see the point in giving it to a unit of assault termies that would rip anything apart that they touch, but why not have it in a Standard marine unit, or an Assault unit - Last would be my Pref.

I thought restricting it to one unit was a better choice.

 

id personally say that grimaldus isnt justified with eternal warrior, since that doesnt allow him to stand up again after the fight, say a unit of Rough Riders jump him, and his squad, all Rough Riders attack Grim - C:BT - Grim dies, then stands up for round 2, lotsa attacks wasted, and he keeps on pounding. C:FSaZ Grimaldus dies. - that why i think he should have his rules tweaked abit.

I've streamlined it to make the mechanics easier. I think it's just easier this way and holds true to what he had before.

 

And just to clear up my comment about the marshal, i know the marshal can swap his bolt pistol for other weapons, but he cant have Both a BP, a CCW and a bike...

I'll double check what C:SM has but I think I copied what was there.

 

About the EC, you are correct, as i do mean the rule that he cant be singled out, since the Chapter Champion has, i would find it only Fit for someone as Awed as the EMPERORS CHAMPION to have it too... also, it only works until the enemy IC is fallen... then he can be targetet again...

I'll see if I can work on something like that. That's actually given me a very interesting idea...

 

About the Black Templar Zeal, and Skills- you could always make a Psycko Chaplain that would give his Unit Rage, and relentless... just to spice things up...

Since this is homegrown, I thought that it's better if I err on the side of caution and not make anything too overpowered. Otherwise people won't get any games with it.

 

Thanks for your feedback mate.

[Castellan Furias]

Your Welcome - always at service if need be :wub:

 

I understand the principle of making the homegrowm Dex, but personally i think that although many of your special characters are good, id say they wouldnt be able to stand against the new C:IG speciels or some of the C:SM ones... so making a kickass character is okay, just give him a drawback that equals it out.

 

My the Emperor guide your hand in making this Codex... and slaing the xenos and heretics.

 

Furias

[paintner]

I been thinking on making a public 'check it out' version of what little been made of the .pdf so people can come with some input and such.

 

might not be that all input will be used :D but we will at least listen and discuss it =)

 

 

so are there any people interested in this? worth my time to try to put something together?

 

remember there will be some blacked out parts as well as a big 'BETA TEST VERSION' thing in red over it all :)

[Ugrush]

I've got the Army Builder files ready now ;) They are only a replacement of the standard black templar files, but there is not problem to get the original files back once you overwrite with these, just reupdate your data file for 40.000.

 

Could I PM them to you sigis and get them uploaded on the forum or isn't that allowed?

[Brother Loring]

I've been through this list twice in the last few days and really like it. Just a couple of questions/points (sorry if they are duplicated but couldn't find them with a quick search). I know we are trying to be in more alignment with other space marine chapters, but I think we need to retain as much individualism as possible (which I think you have done a great job with already, but...)

 

1) Chaplains are more important to us than many/all other chapters so I think taking away the option of the command squad is a little disappointing.

 

2) I really liked the ad hoc nature of our crusader squads, ranging from 5-20 models and the new rules makes it seem a little more organised (although there is not a great deal of difference, I can see people hitting the 10 men just to get the 2nd upgrade). I understand this prevents people maxing small squads with heavy weapons (which I agree is very un-Templarish by the way). Maybe I'm being a little picky, but I like my crusader squads more individual in number/weapons/neos etc.

 

Anyway, MINOR points I know, just thought I'd throw them out there. However this has made my life difficult. Do I select purchases based on this list and try to persuade others to allow me to use it, or do I stick with 4th ed.

 

Thanks for all of the hard work and time!

 

p.s. I'm up for testing the list out at lower points games - will let you know how it goes.

[Sigismund Himself]

I've got the Army Builder files ready now :D They are only a replacement of the standard black templar files, but there is not problem to get the original files back once you overwrite with these, just reupdate your data file for 40.000.

 

Could I PM them to you sigis and get them uploaded on the forum or isn't that allowed?

Awesome mate :) I'm not sure if they're alright to put up here, I'll double check with an admin.

 

1) Chaplains are more important to us than many/all other chapters so I think taking away the option of the command squad is a little disappointing.

Fair enough point. I think that I'll have a look at including that change.

 

2) I really liked the ad hoc nature of our crusader squads, ranging from 5-20 models and the new rules makes it seem a little more organised (although there is not a great deal of difference, I can see people hitting the 10 men just to get the 2nd upgrade). I understand this prevents people maxing small squads with heavy weapons (which I agree is very un-Templarish by the way). Maybe I'm being a little picky, but I like my crusader squads more individual in number/weapons/neos etc.

The whole intent of the change was to stop people doing the 6 man las/plas squads. We still have a bonus from being to fill those ten models required for additional stuff with 5 neophytes, which provides a bit of a points break.

 

p.s. I'm up for testing the list out at lower points games - will let you know how it goes.

Thanks ;)

[Beor]

I like this homegrown codex, but I have some minor things that I miss from our 4th ed codex. Mainly it's the veteran skills for our Sword bretheren. I don't have the codex infront of me so I can't really tell what has changed in their statline, but those skills really gave some flavour to the unit.

[Sigismund Himself]

Okay, with the soon-to be release Space Wolves codex, I'm looking at updating this 'dex or making a Mk.II version that has more power and unorthodoxy than the current one. Basically, making it codex with a power level that GW could produce, rather than the current version which has its power scaled back so that you're likely to find opponents that would agree to its use.

 

What I'm looking at updating:

 

1. Changing Blessed Hull so that it merely gives the 'Venerable' special rule.

2. Clarifying further and powering up the Orbs of Antioch.

3. Bolt pistol, bolter and CCW, need a bit of feedback on this one

4. Looking at giving Sword Brethren options for jump packs, in addition to the current bike option. Not sure on this, feedback welcome.

5. Increasing HQ characters power level slightly.

6. Going every unit and comparing it to those in the new Space Wolves book in terms of point effectiveness.

7. More choice for our Sword Brethren Terminators in terms of weapons (ie. power swords, combi-weapons)

[Brother Loring]

I can't believe you give yourself the extra work, but once again many thanks for putting in the time and effort!!

 

1) I kinda like the blessed hull rule, I think it gives the Crusader character, but Venerable would be more useful.

2) Yes

3) If you mean taking them all, then no. I think it will mean extra points and in C:BT it even states our primary armament is the bolter many of our warriors chose to carry weapons more suited to CC. I'm not really even sure of the benefit as it not an assault weapon. I like the way things currently stand with regards to this.

4) Yes

5) In line with C:SM/SW

6) Best of luck

7) Seems reasonable

 

Others

 

1) More choice for our assault marines. Its nice we no longer have to take melta bombs for our entire squad (even though they are more expensive now). We have lost the option of plasmapistol/flamer (which should be reversed) and I think we should have an option for extra CCW upgrades (more in line with vanguard units). Hey how about calling them Sword Brethren assault marines.

2) 3rd weapon upgrade when crusader units reach 12/15. I think this should be limited to CCW, but I know I'll be shouted at, so maybe just non-heavy weapon.

 

Just my opinion

 

Anyway, best of luck!!

[Grey Mage]

Another Non-heavy weapon seems reasonable at 12 men- your giving up most transportation options in exchange for it.

 

And yeah, just because BT dont have seargents is no reason to deny them the standard number of weapon options IMHO. Assault marines could use the boost, but so could crusader squads- another reason the third weapon seems right to me.

[Sigismund Himself]

1) More choice for our assault marines. Its nice we no longer have to take melta bombs for our entire squad (even though they are more expensive now). We have lost the option of plasmapistol/flamer (which should be reversed) and I think we should have an option for extra CCW upgrades (more in line with vanguard units). Hey how about calling them Sword Brethren assault marines.

I'll have a look at what I've currently got.

 

2) 3rd weapon upgrade when crusader units reach 12/15. I think this should be limited to CCW, but I know I'll be shouted at, so maybe just non-heavy weapon.

Added to the 'Things to Think About' list.

 

More opinions on the proposed changes are more than welcome and needed so I can update it.

[Brother Loring]

Perhaps following a 'discussion' with Brother Grius in the Wishlisting Thread an idea was put forward by Sersi (I think) to have a possible chaplain upgrade in place of a veteran sergeant. Perhaps this could work? I think he would have to be a 1 wound/2 attack model and if we wanted to keep the inv. save I suspect he'd come in around 30+ points but it seems a bit more 'fluffy' and would certainly give units some good character.

 

I actually thought I'd come up with the idea as I thought it was originally suggested to have a unit of chaplains. However, on re-reading the thread, Sersi has to take all of the credit. Good idea (in my opinion)!

 

I don't seeing a big problem with creating a new character, we don't have access to librarians like everybody else (not that I want them - dirty scum!)

[Sigismund Himself]

I don't see it being added at this stage. I've already got one upgrade to the Crusader Squad that provides a pseudo sarge and he's close enough to a chaplain with his Holy Orb. I don't want the project to drown in too many characters :P

[Brother Loring]

Fair enough. Just to point out though, it is not aimed at being a character upgrade but more a recurring (optional) theme in crusader squads like a vet sergeant in normal space marine squads, unlike a one-off character upgrade.

 

I wasn't too fussed, it just seemed that a few others were asking for a 2 attack model to lead crusader squads.

[Utsujin]

I didn't see you had any option for giving termies or sword brethren the option to buy furious charge? Just wondering, as that's what I like about them currently.

[Brother Loring]

Also, why does our castellan have a pretty terrible stats line when the space marine captian has a far better one?? It is worse than before, significantly worse than the marshal and worse than a reclusiarch?? I get that he is just a good sword brethren leading a fighting company, but aren't we selling ourselves a little short??

 

You explained this before as so were not disadvantaged at lower points games, but surely this is a massive disadvantage. He's gone from 65 points to 90 points and gained an iron halo (don't even have the option of not taking it) and in the mean time is -1 BS, -1 I.

 

Sorry, that was a little ranty, but hardly anybody uses a castellan at present, but you'd have to be crazy to take one now!

[Frostea]

In my opinion, the sword brethrens in power armour are far too overpriced. For 23 points I could get a plague marine which is far more effective. Furthermore, in comparison with the new SW codex, the basic grey hunters have a basic profile of 1(2) A. In other words, for 15 points you can get the same thing as a 23 pt sword brethren. And more, since they also have Counter Attack and Acute Senses. Even the current rendition of sword brethrens are overpriced for what they can do. I suggest you drop the points drastically or add some sort of incentives to use them.

 

Also, I think chaplains need a buff to make up for the lack of librarians (utility-wise)''

 

P.S I didn't read the 6 pages of comments, so I'm sorry if you already answered similar queries.

[Sigismund Himself]

I didn't see you had any option for giving termies or sword brethren the option to buy furious charge? Just wondering, as that's what I like about them currently.

Currently, they have no option to buy it per a unit. However, you can add it to them by purchasing High Marshal Helbrecht or putting Retainer Augustine into the unit.

 

Also, why does our castellan have a pretty terrible stats line when the space marine captian has a far better one?? It is worse than before, significantly worse than the marshal and worse than a reclusiarch?? I get that he is just a good sword brethren leading a fighting company, but aren't we selling ourselves a little short??

 

You explained this before as so were not disadvantaged at lower points games, but surely this is a massive disadvantage. He's gone from 65 points to 90 points and gained an iron halo (don't even have the option of not taking it) and in the mean time is -1 BS, -1 I.

 

Sorry, that was a little ranty, but hardly anybody uses a castellan at present, but you'd have to be crazy to take one now!

As a general note, I respond much better to well-reasoned arguments than rants.

 

After having a look at the new Wolf Guard Battle Leader for the Space Wolves, the Castellan is going to see a points drop. His stat-line is going to stay roughly the same.

 

In my opinion, the sword brethrens in power armour are far too overpriced. For 23 points I could get a plague marine which is far more effective. Furthermore, in comparison with the new SW codex, the basic grey hunters have a basic profile of 1(2) A. In other words, for 15 points you can get the same thing as a 23 pt sword brethren. And more, since they also have Counter Attack and Acute Senses. Even the current rendition of sword brethrens are overpriced for what they can do. I suggest you drop the points drastically or add some sort of incentives to use them.

After having a look at the new Space Wolves codex, I have to agree with you here. I'm looking at dropping the price right down, perhaps to 16 points. Crusader squads will also be looking at a discount, as well as anything else that has a rough equal in C:SW.

 

Also, I think chaplains need a buff to make up for the lack of librarians (utility-wise)''

They can currently buy lots of shiny wargear and the Reclusiarch has a captain-like statline. That's my attempts to fill that gap. I'm not sure I want to do much more for fears of echoing the Space Wolves too much. Though perhaps I could use the chaplain as a sort of focus for the vows...

 

Keep the comments coming guys, they're helping ;)

[Smiling Jak]

Hey Sig, off-topic but I gotta ask.

 

How big is your BT army?

[Sigismund Himself]

Hey Sig, off-topic but I gotta ask.

 

How big is your BT army?

I retired from from the gaming side of the game about one and a half years ago :) I had about about a 1500-2000 points army back then and I've still got those models floating about somewhere in storage. Not everything is painted, something which helped put me off the hobby, as well as the cost. I'm now just a fluff-nut :)

[Smiling Jak]

Ah okay.

 

And yes, I feel you on that. I was building my first BT army four years back, ran out of funds and had to sell it for bits to who would ever take it.

 

This time though? I think I can get a 3,000 point army by the end of the year. As it is, I've just been fiddling with lists, rereading the 5th Ed. and checking up on all that I've missed in the new codexes for the other armies. Quite a bit of things I've completely lost the knowledge on doing in those few years.