++Codex: Fire, Steel and Zeal++

[Messanger of Death]

From my quick glance it looks good with the wording clear. Few things jumped out at me but most of them represent personal preferences and beliefs of Templar fluff. So I will think of how best to provide positive feed back before posting them up. One question though is why Accept Any Challenge... no longer applies to Dreadnoughts. My understand is that And They Shall Know No Fear doesn't apply to Dreadnoughts. Also it may be beneficial if the most up to date doc. be in the first post as it took me two tries to figure out which is the current one to download.

 

Just want to reinforce the gratitude others have shown towards the hard work you have put into it Sigismund as well as those who have helped in a more behind the scenes manner.

 

Messanger

[Sigismund Himself]

Few things jumped out at me but most of them represent personal preferences and beliefs of Templar fluff.

Anything you want to point out is more than welcome.

 

One question though is why Accept Any Challenge... no longer applies to Dreadnoughts. My understand is that And They Shall Know No Fear doesn't apply to Dreadnoughts.

Good catch, I'll see about fixing the wording to include Dreads.

[Smiling Jak]

Helbrecht's Household would really put a hurting on anything if you let all of the Initiates have Relic blades and use the Neophytes as bullet catchers.

[chaplaincliff]

Hey, i don't know if their is other sites hosting the .PDF, but the link is broken.

[Sigismund Himself]

Only this Word Doc currently works. If someone can make a new PDF, I'll get it hosted somewhere more permanent.

[Sigismund Himself]

I've unfortunately been distracted away from updating the list by Real Life and a few other side projects. I'm still looking for someone to help turn this into a PDF as well.

 

The key thing at this stage is playtesting. So far, I've had one playtest. As I've given up on the gaming side of the hobby, I would really appreciate if anybody could help me out here. The only way I can find out if the Codex needs tuning is through games :P

[Messanger of Death]

It is a real shame that you have lost the urge to take part in the playing side of the game. I have done the same on and off at certain points. But it is great that your still interested in the hobby. You might find that if you ask around on the interwebs some of the gaming community might be willing to play test for you. Bushido Red Panda and Darkwynn from Bells of Lost Souls are both Templar players. I always get the impression that those guys get alot of regular games in.

 

Messanger

[BigDunc]

I will play-test. My Tau friend and I have been talking about using the non-GW codices respective to our armies.

[Brother Loring]

Hey Sig,

 

As I'm gonna try and play test this, I thought I'd create a quick excel document to show some of the guys at the local club to see as the links don't work.

 

When creating the file, there are a few little bits missed out, but only small things. I'm not sure if you're still making changes, so let me know if you want to know what they are.

 

Also, I'm not sure if an excel file would be useful until a full PDF is created? Again, let me know!

 

p.s. I've used the list at the beginning of this thread, not sure (don't think) it's the most up-to-date one though?

[Sigismund Himself]

Thanks for the offers, bigdunc and Loring :D

 

Messenger: I've always primarily been a fluff-nut but the cost of the hobby in Australia is just a little ridiculous at times. That drove me off, as well as not really finding the time for games and painting. I've contacted both of the players, thanks for the idea :D

 

Loring: Excel sheet could be useful indeed. The most up to date was the word doc, I just have to fix a few things and get it hosted here (probably by the end of today, at worst tomorrow).

[Sigismund Himself]

I seem to have been able to host it on the B&C. Click here to download. This is the most up to date version.

[Brother Loring]

Excellent, thanks Sig. I'll go through the excel sheet and make sure it matches-up. I know it's not as good as the PDF/.Doc, but it'll be a bit more printer-friendly.

[Sigismund Himself]

Got a playtest from Brother Loring (many thanks once again!) using this list against an IG army and here's what he had to say on it:

 

EC with AAC - didn't really notice much difference as guard were torn through in a single round of combat (on most occasions). I do like you're ruling of first turn only though and I'm sure t would have shown against any other foe!

 

Sword Brethren Assault Termies with Varrikan - probably a little overkill against his list to be honest, but were good fun as always. I didn't miss FC (I'm not sure I would have taken it anyway). First combat from the LRC was against a massed 20 man guard unit - I didn't realise they could 'combine' (may need to read their codex a bit more). Tore through them no problem. I think he was left with about 6 guardsmen, which ran. I did leave a priest alive though and he nearly made a big difference toward the end but, we'll get to him later. Suffered one loss from shooting and then double-charged a heavy weapons team (in cover) and a command squad next turn. Varrikan headed straight for the big boss Company Sergeant with a power fist - probably a bad idea but... Anyway, took 4 wounds from the weapons teams and killed all of the command squad except the sergeant with my combat (he rolled 2 5+s for his inv. save). The sergeant then took down Varrikan. I could not believe it. 2 hits, 2 wounds and no saves rolled - - Anyway, it was nice to have a demi-IC in the unit and they did what they were suppose to do, taking out a whole wing and shook his Demolisher twice which was nice.

 

Crusading Wrath - Awesome. He glanced it about 3 times and penetrated it once I think. 2 glances did nothing, 1 glance was reduced to a shaken - nothing - and the penetrating took out the MM. The BS 5 makes a big difference. It makes the MM that much more reliable and ignoring stunned and shaken is very nice. I would possibly say perhaps a little too nice, I'm not sure though. It is a lot of points, so is only going to be used in big games, so is possibly not too much of a problem. Many more points and I think it would put people off, so.... I'm not sure. Anyway, I thought Mr Priest was gonna slay me the mighty Crusading Wrath on the last turn. I didn't really bother with him as he was on his own - more worried about the Storm Troopers/Vets (Can't remeber which) and their Valkyrie. He managed to get a charge in on the very last turn and as I hadn't moved auto-hit and was rocking an eviscerator. He had one bad damage roll - nothing and one penetrating hit. Fortunately it was just another 'shaken', but i was very close to being extremely embarassed.

 

Sword Brethren Bike Squad - Big waste of points, but not really their fault. They experienced a well aimed demolisher template (only just in range - my mistake) on the first turn and then some autocannon/h.bolter fire to finish them off in a single turn. Oh well, at least they took a lot of interest away from other units. I probably woldn't spend that amount of points on them normally, but it was just for fun, and I'm sure if they would have made it thorugh that turn, I'm sure they would have done more. I probably could have used a bit more cover, I just didn't think he'd make them priority No.1. Anyway, you live and you learn - well they didn't but I did!

 

Crusader Squads - I completely forgot to use the HOoA on Brother Maynard - sorry! Otherwise, they performed very much as you would expect. Again, it was nice to have a demi-IC for the extra attacks, perhaps give him a power weapon and make him 35/40 points?? It was a bit of a bum not having the 2nd weapon upgrade in the squad with the EC (as it was only 9 men strong), but in reality it didn't make a huge difference. Perhaps that could be worded slightly differently or allow the extra weapon at 9 men, to alow you to run an IC with them?? 2 and a half squads ended up being mown-down by plates or massed fire as per normal with IG.

 

Like I said neither lists were extremely competitive, but, it was a really good, close game. I wouldn't say that anything was glaringly-obviously bad or over-powered. The Crusading Wrath was strong, but you do pay the poiints for it. The new demi-ICs were good fun to play and added some charachter to squads. Neither were over/under-priced and due a couple of unlucky rolls they didn't last too long which was a shame.

 

The Templars came out on top one objective to nil. The Crusading Wrath probably needs some more playtesting to tweak cost or downgrade power but everything else seems to be working fine.

 

Any more playtesters out there?

[SunshineDragon]

Hey all. I may be new to B&C but I have been playing the Templar for quite some time now (around the 7-8 years mark). I am pleased to say that Codex: Fire, Steel and Zeal looks very good indeed though I do have a few suggestions if you would like to hear them?

 

1. On the Emperor's Champion: you should probably specify that the Black Sword counts as a "single handed" Relic blade for all intents and purposes of confusion and rule mongering. Specially with RBs being two-handed.

2. You really need to clarify the 'Crusade Banner = Company Banner', there is no Company Banner, there is a Company STANDARD and a CHAPTER Banner. You need to fix this (I know there are some references to pg 53 C:SM in some cases in others its pg 100).

3. With the High Marshal's Household (this is more a question) does the removal of the Chap Champ mean the he is replaced with an honour guard AND there is an extra one or what?

 

And that's all I have really. I am very thankful for the hard work you have put into this. Definately going to need to keep up with this.

 

Thanks for your time.

 

SunshineDragon.

[Th!rdeye]

Epic bump.

 

How goes work on this?? I love playing homebrew stuff. ;)

[Sigismund Himself]

Hey all. I may be new to B&C but I have been playing the Templar for quite some time now (around the 7-8 years mark). I am pleased to say that Codex: Fire, Steel and Zeal looks very good indeed though I do have a few suggestions if you would like to hear them?

 

1. On the Emperor's Champion: you should probably specify that the Black Sword counts as a "single handed" Relic blade for all intents and purposes of confusion and rule mongering. Specially with RBs being two-handed.

2. You really need to clarify the 'Crusade Banner = Company Banner', there is no Company Banner, there is a Company STANDARD and a CHAPTER Banner. You need to fix this (I know there are some references to pg 53 C:SM in some cases in others its pg 100).

3. With the High Marshal's Household (this is more a question) does the removal of the Chap Champ mean the he is replaced with an honour guard AND there is an extra one or what?

 

And that's all I have really. I am very thankful for the hard work you have put into this. Definately going to need to keep up with this.

 

Thanks for your time.

 

SunshineDragon.

Hey mate, thanks for the comments.

 

1) it's meant to be two-handed, I've merely added an extra attack to the profile to compensate for it. It keeps things simpler.

 

2) Good catch. I'll fix it in the next update.

 

3) Replaced with, no extra one after that. I'll take a look at the wording.

 

Epic bump.

 

How goes work on this?? I love playing homebrew stuff. B)

I haven't touched it for a year really. The codex is pretty much as good as I can get it without playtesters (though I should add the Stormraven and take a look at incorporating the vows as just normal army special rules that center around the EC). So if there are any volunteers for playtesting, it would be incredibly welcome :)

[Bloodcrusade]

Honestly, I more disprove than approve this codex.

 

For starters: The Emperor's Champion. Yes 100 points base is fine by me, given that he now has WS6 and an IronHalo and the new Zealeous move to insta-gib someone. With that said, the Vows are bad. Abhor now no longer allows you to nullify a power that effects you, and you don't get a free 6" move. As Uphold and SufferNot are the exact same as they are now, that only leaves AAC.

AAC however blows. Not a little, a lot. Currently worded it will only happen once per game for each unit. For only 10pts more I always have Preferred Enemy in the current codex. So do I want to save 10points for +1WS and a permanent 4++ save? Not on my life.

 

Crusader Squads: Powerfist for 10points more than current codex? WTHeck? The reason it's 25points for a C:SM Sarge is he has 2 base attacks. Keep it at 15 please. Plasmagun for.....are you kidding me? Bit over priced here and will make a big impact if someone tried to make a firepower heavy list. Only granting the special weapon if they number 10 models? That literally neuters my DropPod list not being able to pack a fist and melta in less than ten men. The model's cost: Yay we now have frag and krak grenades! Yay we're the same point cost per C:SM tactical marines but we don't benefit from Chapter Tactics or Fearless in CC....balls.

 

SwordBrethren: Awesome unit selection. The options that they have available to them are excellent and they are comparable to the VanguardVets for versitility. However their base point cost is a bit much considering that they lose their VeteranSkill. If you're to keep them at 23points I don't think I would field them often because they are too much base. Drop them to 21 a model or bump them to 24/5 and give them their Veteran Skill options.

 

Termies: They cost too much. 41 points and the only difference is they are able to have a chainfist mixed in with their LCs. 2D6 pen<3++Shield/Hammer.

 

Helbrecht: At the new point cost I will never bring him. Gives SwordBrethren FuriousCharge for free? Whoop-dee-doo, he costs too much for only 5 points of wargear more and a bombardment.

 

Grimaldus: For 5 points more he's now an EnternalWarrior and has one more wound. It's an about even trade if you're never fielded Grimaldus before, but if you have they this hurts bad. Why? Example: Grimaldus is in CC with Mephiston. Mephiston swings and force weapons Grimaldus after he fails his saves. Grimaldus passes leadership and stays on the board, proceeds to dice Mephiston a new one with powerweapon attacks. Replace Mephiston with a MC, a TH/SS termy squad, something that will cause him to take a bunch of saves that he wont continuely make. As he is now he can survive getting hammered to death, and tie up the squad for another round of CC.

 

Special Characters/Upgrades: Cool. Most of them are pretty fluffy and have not too shabby rules with them. However I cannot help but feel that you were looking at the SpacePuppies codex when you put them in. Minor point tweeking may be in order but I have yet to playtest the codex. Personal favorite so far however has to be allowing us to keep our DropPod Assault. At his point cost however, I will have to be hesitant to include him in a Drop list even if he allows things to arrive on a 3+ on Turn2.

 

Most of the unit entries: The whole referencing the C:SM (Things like Honor Guard, etc.) is fine and dandy, until you look at what you are referencing. Honor Guard for example. Show me any competetive SM list that includes them. There are much better options to be had instead of spending the points on them. This also means that our fancy HQs turn into their B) y ones. Our Castellans are only 65points for a reason, I don't want to replace that with a Captain.

 

Righteous Zeal: I........love you. Zealing into CC needed to come back. Just need to word it so that it allows for the unit to come with-in 1" of an enemy model, that way they CAN Zeal into BtB with-out breaking the BRB.

 

Personally I find that there is much to this codex, and it fixes some of our current flaws. I don't however enjoy turning my army from a BlackTemplar army into Ultrablue. Not kosher and not gonna happen. I'm gonna playtest the army put as for my suggested changes:

 

Allready mentioned the SwordBrethren changes. You need to include the Space Marine special rule(ATSKNF) for all the models, about half don't have it as it is. Crusaders need to be able to still min/max special weapons, and reduce the point costs on several of them. Change Helbrecht's point cost and special rules.

Sidenote: Helbrecht costs way too much. That's a given. Considering that you're making what? 2 maybe 3 units gain FuriousCharge? What a waste. Instead make it so that if you include Helbrecht, SwordBrethren may be taken as a Troop Choice. Cut his price down to 200. He's 175 as is and has more options available, and makes a bigger impact, for far less than 240 points.

On topic: Grimaldus I would throw FnP on, which justifies the 5point cost increase, EternalWarrior and +1 wound justifying the replacement of "Only in Death...". Nikademus shouldn't cost anywhere near 215 points. He's just a Chapter Master with a Thunderhammer/Powerweapon(which denies him +1 attack) and a special rule that only takes importance in a Drop list. Cut him down to 175 or so, as he's basically like Shrike/Vulkan/Khan: Having a special armywide rule but is nothing special himself. I think Sword Brother Varrikan should only be 60points or so upgrade considering that he only has the sword and HeriocIntervention which is a one-trick pony; maybe give him WS5 and 3 base attacks to represent his personal Vow instead? Drop Maynard's cost down to 25 points. He only has +1 attack and an Orb. Drop the wording on the transport options "If they will all fit": GW made it so a ten man tact squad could purchase a Razorback transport because the number of models in the squad may be reduced to 6 or less during gameplay(As stated in an FAQ).

 

I think I am going to print off a copy of the codex and bring it in to play at my FLGS soon. I will run it both as listed as with my suggestion for Helbrecht to see if an All-SwordBrethren list is as viable as the Death/LoganWing/Dante'sGuard concepts. I'll PM you the results of how it went and if I still stand by my suggestions or have any new ones.

[Th!rdeye]

I have to partly agree with him. Looking over it i see how it says "Chapter Master" refer to C:SM and etc."

 

I don't have a space marine codex because i do not like it. B) I feel it has made us a add-on to that codex, not a chapter than completely pisses on the Codex Astartes (see my sig).

 

I hate having to take a special character to get all these bonuses that we just flat out lost. FC on termis and tank hunters. Drop Pod Assault.

 

Zealing to combat is epic, as is ET and the extra wound for Grimmy.

 

It just makes it too much like the C:SM in my opinion. Its balanced as hell i will admit, but we are weaker in close combat it may seem. And our lack of Devs is the reason for a special and heavy in such a small 5man squad.

 

I still must playtest before i pass any more judgement.

 

Do not think i don't appreciate your work into this Sigismund. I do. Very much so.

[Marshal Rohr]

When Sig designed it he did so specifically with the intent to give us a list that reflects the similarities between all marine codexes, while maintaining a very Templar feel and unit selection. He definitely achieved it. Given that it was written before the first of the Non-Codex Codex Chapters (Space Wolves and Dark Angels) were written, he didn't want to go crazy with it like the Blood Angels codex that was released afterwards did.

[Bloodcrusade]

When Sig designed it he did so specifically with the intent to give us a list that reflects the similarities between all marine codexes, while maintaining a very Templar feel and unit selection. He definitely achieved it. Given that it was written before the first of the Non-Codex Codex Chapters (Space Wolves and Dark Angels) were written, he didn't want to go crazy with it like the Blood Angels codex that was released afterwards did.

 

I agree wholeheartedly, it should never go towards the Blood Angels end of the scale and is pretty well written for when it was. I just don't believe that having our units be the same as the Codex's but with 2-3 other wargear options is a way to go about our codex. It's not that I don't mind cross-referencing between this and another book, it's that we aren't a 'Codex' chapter and shouldn't have the same units but with a different name. Thus our Crusaders can use BoltPistols and Chainswords and have Neophytes instead of scouts. It's why we have SwordBrethren with Vet Skills instead of Sergeants. Right now this is essentially, in the most basic way, the C:SM with an additional option in-between Vulkan and Shrike that reads: Helbrecht, gives your Veterans Furious Charge but you can no longer take Scouts and Devs.

 

Again I love the fact that someone put so much time and effort into this, because it's great to see a possible modern version of our codex. I just don't like some of the point values, especially the special character's cost. I'll see how several different lists work out against a couple of my buddies' Angels, maybe another guy's chaos marines if I can with-in this next week. I haven't broke down and written a list yet but we'll see how a couple different styles turn out.

[Sigismund Himself]

Thanks for the comments all, I'll be back in the morning when I'm somewhat able to do some coherent reasoning.

[Sigismund Himself]

By tomorrow, I was obviously referring to the calendar used by tradespeople and Cedos which doesn't include Tuesdays ;) Sorry for the delay, work and such interfered.

 

I'm first going to outline the three foundations on which I built the codex.

 

1) Maintaining The Black Templars favour and keeping uniqueness

The codex aims to keep the Black Templars as the crusading hardasses we all know and love.

 

I don't however enjoy turning my army from a BlackTemplar army into Ultrablue. Not kosher and not gonna happen.

I don't have a space marine codex because i do not like it. B) I feel it has made us a add-on to that codex, not a chapter than completely pisses on the Codex Astartes (see my sig).

I understand the sentiment but saying I've turned it into C:SM has to be looked at in the context of our 4th Edition Codex vs 4th Edition Space Marine Codex, rather than our 4th Edition codex vs the 5th Edition Space Marine codex. We were not that different.

 

Units that are literally the same entry (barring Crusader Seal option and switching option of taking LR as transport for LRC): Master/Marshal, Captain/Castellan, Master of Sanctity/Master of Sanctity, Reclusiarch/Reclusiarch, command squad/command squad, Terminator Command Squad/Terminator Command Squad, Terminator Squad/Sword Brethren Terminator Squad, Terminator Assault Squad/Sword Brethren Terminator Assault Squad, Techmarine/Techmarine, Dreadnought/Dreadnought, Rhino/Rhino, Razorback/Razorback, Drop Pod/Drop Pod, Landspeeder Squadrons/Landspeeder Squadrons, Attack Bike Squadron/Attack Bike Squadron, Predators/Predators, Vindicator/Vindicator, Land Raiders/Land Raiders

 

Units with Minor Divergences: Veteran Squad/Sword Brethren Squad (some more options available or cheaper), Assault Squad/BT Assault Squad (options to make up for lack of sergeant plus storm shields), Bike Squadron/BT Bike Squadron (options to make up for lack of sergeant)

 

Units that are unique or Majorly Divergent: Tactical Squad/Crusader Squad (you should know how, don't make more typing for me :P ), Emperor's Champion

 

Units missing from C:BT from C:SM 4th Editon: Scouts, Scout Bikers, Whirlwinds, Devastators, Librarians

 

In this update, I've actually made more units divergent from C:SM 5th Edition (see Bike Squadron with Neophytes, mixed Terminators squads, Sword Brethren Bikers) while maintaining the ones that were already divergent. So I disagree strongly with the argument I'm making the Black Templar Ultramarines in black and white armour.

 

2) Sticking to the baseline provided by GW

5th Edition saw a few changes. Special Rules became more rare and powerfists more potent against vehicles. I've followed those two changes. The 5th Edition Space Marine codex also brought with it changes. Prices went up on some items, down on others. Units changed, as well as some of their abilities. Where there was a link with between pricing in 4th Edition between the two Codeii, I've kept it (where there hasn't been other factors to consider). This is an attempt to bring our codex into the new environment of 5th Edition. It also leads into my final point below.

 

3) Avoiding the pitfalls of the normal homegrown codeii

You've all seen these, I'm sure. The Chapter Masters with WS10 and half a million special rules, the random chaos lord with more wounds than the rest of the army put together and all yours for a mere 200pts! Nobody wants to play against such an unbalanced codex and so it's been that homegrown codeii have had a bad reputation for being overpowered/underpriced. With this in mind, I've tried to ensure that I price things as fairly as I can or even a bit over. This codex was an exercise in just making our codex playable for 5th Edition, with a few more characterful tweaks added. It is a stopgap measure really. In order for it to actually work as this, it needs to be so that opponents will play it. So in most cases, I've played on the safe side with costs and unit abilities so that you can find opponents willing to play it. Believe me, if I had the authority of GW to make players accept this codex, there'd be a few things different. Cheaper costs and maybe a few more radical units (Zealots for one thing) as a beginning.

 

Now to address the more specific concerns.

 

 

Abhor now no longer allows you to nullify a power that effects you, and you don't get a free 6" move. As Uphold and SufferNot are the exact same as they are now, that only leaves AAC.

 

AAC however blows. Not a little, a lot. Currently worded it will only happen once per game for each unit. For only 10pts more I always have Preferred Enemy in the current codex. So do I want to save 10points for +1WS and a permanent 4++ save? Not on my life.

Abhor has been updated, given the slight changes to psychic power rules. A 'minor power' was not exactly clear cut... Is the loss of movement that bigger deal? I can keep it if there's enough reason.

 

You can't compare too much between the old codex and the new one in some areas. This is a new edition, with its own trends and rules.

 

Crusader Squads: Powerfist for 10points more than current codex? WTHeck? The reason it's 25points for a C:SM Sarge is he has 2 base attacks. Keep it at 15 please.

I based this on the price in the Space Wolves codex for a single attack model in their Grey Hunters. I'll doublecheck if I can borrow my mate's codex.

 

Plasmagun for.....are you kidding me? Bit over priced here and will make a big impact if someone tried to make a firepower heavy list. Only granting the special weapon if they number 10 models? That literally neuters my DropPod list not being able to pack a fist and melta in less than ten men.

Plasma gun is as per C:SM, I'm pretty sure. And again, the restriction on weapons is from C:SM. If I get a chance to have a look at the Space Wolves again, I'll see how they do it but I think it was vaguely the same. I'm not overly happy with it myself but went with it.

 

The model's cost: Yay we now have frag and krak grenades! Yay we're the same point cost per C:SM tactical marines but we don't benefit from Chapter Tactics or Fearless in CC....balls.

We still have No Pity! No Remorse! No Fear!, so we are still Fearless in CC. Costwise, I think it's about right.

 

SwordBrethren: Awesome unit selection. The options that they have available to them are excellent and they are comparable to the VanguardVets for versitility. However their base point cost is a bit much considering that they lose their VeteranSkill. If you're to keep them at 23points I don't think I would field them often because they are too much base. Drop them to 21 a model or bump them to 24/5 and give them their Veteran Skill options.

Agreed on the cost, I'll bump them down.

 

Termies: They cost too much. 41 points and the only difference is they are able to have a chainfist mixed in with their LCs. 2D6 pen<3++Shield/Hammer.

You can now also mix and match Tactical Terminators with Assault Terminators. They also have Crusader Seals as standard, hence the +1 in cost.

 

 

Grimaldus: For 5 points more he's now an EnternalWarrior and has one more wound. It's an about even trade if you're never fielded Grimaldus before, but if you have they this hurts bad. Why? Example: Grimaldus is in CC with Mephiston. Mephiston swings and force weapons Grimaldus after he fails his saves. Grimaldus passes leadership and stays on the board, proceeds to dice Mephiston a new one with powerweapon attacks. Replace Mephiston with a MC, a TH/SS termy squad, something that will cause him to take a bunch of saves that he wont continuely make. As he is now he can survive getting hammered to death, and tie up the squad for another round of CC.

 

<snip>

 

On topic: Grimaldus I would throw FnP on, which justifies the 5point cost increase, EternalWarrior and +1 wound justifying the replacement of "Only in Death...".

Part of the streamlining to 5th Edition and eliminating of extra Special Rules when there's a similar rule available. I thought about adding FNP but felt it would make him too much like Cassius in the current SM codex.

 

Most of the unit entries: The whole referencing the C:SM (Things like Honor Guard, etc.) is fine and dandy, until you look at what you are referencing. Honor Guard for example. Show me any competetive SM list that includes them. There are much better options to be had instead of spending the points on them. This also means that our fancy HQs turn into their :blink: y ones. Our Castellans are only 65points for a reason, I don't want to replace that with a Captain.

 

Righteous Zeal: I........love you. Zealing into CC needed to come back. Just need to word it so that it allows for the unit to come with-in 1" of an enemy model, that way they CAN Zeal into BtB with-out breaking the BRB.

I'll have a look at that, any ideas?

 

You need to include the Space Marine special rule(ATSKNF) for all the models, about half don't have it as it is.

I'll doublecheck it all.

 

Helbrecht: At the new point cost I will never bring him. Gives SwordBrethren FuriousCharge for free? Whoop-dee-doo, he costs too much for only 5 points of wargear more and a bombardment.

 

<snip>

 

Sidenote: Helbrecht costs way too much. That's a given. Considering that you're making what? 2 maybe 3 units gain FuriousCharge? What a waste. Instead make it so that if you include Helbrecht, SwordBrethren may be taken as a Troop Choice. Cut his price down to 200. He's 175 as is and has more options available, and makes a bigger impact, for far less than 240 points.

Conservative costing again, given that if you build a list around him it can be vey devastating. I wanted to do the option you suggested but decided against it (can't remember my reasoning...). I'll have a look at it again.

 

 

Nikademus shouldn't cost anywhere near 215 points. He's just a Chapter Master with a Thunderhammer/Powerweapon(which denies him +1 attack) and a special rule that only takes importance in a Drop list. Cut him down to 175 or so, as he's basically like Shrike/Vulkan/Khan: Having a special armywide rule but is nothing special himself.

He has +1 attack to make up for it. I'll have a look at making him a bit more accessible.

 

I think Sword Brother Varrikan should only be 60points or so upgrade considering that he only has the sword and HeriocIntervention which is a one-trick pony; maybe give him WS5 and 3 base attacks to represent his personal Vow instead?

The pricing for Varrikan is reflective of the devastating potential of combining him with his Heroic Intervention and 10 Assault Terminators. It is a one trick pony but a very devastating one. This is where I erred on the side of caution in pricing. I also did want to give him some more stat changes but didn't want to up his cost anymore.

 

Drop Maynard's cost down to 25 points. He only has +1 attack and an Orb.

Plus gives Ld9 to the whole squad. Which is quite useful in non-IC led units. And again, my conservative costing.

 

Drop the wording on the transport options "If they will all fit": GW made it so a ten man tact squad could purchase a Razorback transport because the number of models in the squad may be reduced to 6 or less during gameplay(As stated in an FAQ).

Okay, I'll hunt down the FAQ and change as necessary.

 

I think I am going to print off a copy of the codex and bring it in to play at my FLGS soon. I will run it both as listed as with my suggestion for Helbrecht to see if an All-SwordBrethren list is as viable as the Death/LoganWing/Dante'sGuard concepts. I'll PM you the results of how it went and if I still stand by my suggestions or have any new ones.

Many thanks for the offer :lol:

 

Thanks once again for the comments, both of you.

[Bloodcrusade]

I see where you made conservative costs and I agree with most now that you have listed your reasoning. I still find however that Helbrecht costs too much for what he does but hey, that might just be me.

 

So I've thrown together a sample list that I plan to play my friend's BloodAngels with sometime this week(Probably tomorrow) utilizing Helbrecht and his Sword Brethren rule. Sword Brethren are at 21pts a model as you said you were going to reduce their cost.

 

HQ

Helbrecht

--240

 

Emp Champ

-AAC

-PlasmaPistol

--145

 

Elites

Sword Brethren Termy Squad

-Varrikan

-2xLC

-2xTH/SS

--285

 

Sword Brethren

-6xSwordBrethren

-Relic Blade

-Meltabomb

-3xCombi-Meltas

-DropPod

--223

 

Sword Brethren

-5xSwordBrethren

-Relic Blade

-3xCombi-Meltas

-Meltabomb

-DropPod

--195

 

Troops

Crusader Squad

-6xInitiates

-4xNeophytes

-Fist

-Meltagun

-DropPod w/Locator Beacon

--216

 

Crusader Squad

-6xInitiates

-4xNeophytes

-Fist

-Meltagun

-DropPod w/Locator Beacon

--216

 

TOTAL: 1498

 

Plan would be to drop the Crusaders down on Turn1, SwordBrethren and the Termies Herioc Intervention Turn2 off a locator beacon. Helbrecht and the Champ have options for what squad they want to ride down in with, probably in the Crusaders so they have additional wound soaks and draw attention away from the SwordBrethren. Meltabombs with the Brethren in-case they have a need to try to crack a building or AV, most likely going to be fighting AssaultMarines however, but it never hurts to have some protection.

The other option is swap out the squad's pods and have the SwordBrethren be in the ones with a locator beacon, drop both of them and a Crusader on Turn1, and continue in the same way as above.

 

I should have a better judgment call on unit pricing vs game-play after tomorrow, but this will only be on what? 4 units? Try to squeeze more in later this week if I can get my painting for the week done.

[Bloodcrusade]

O.................M.................G

 

So I did a game against IG player who spammed LRBs and a 2v2 against Chaos and Blood Angels.

Games were at 1750 so I just included 2xVindies w/HK missiles.

 

My opinions of the codex after these two games:

 

1)The new Righteous Zeal being able to bring you into CC again...holy :)

2)The Sword Brethren are beyond amazing being able to take the Relic Blade, Str7 at Int5 just devastates what they charge.

3) Helbrecht, I never used his Orbital Bombardment, but I still believe that he costs too much for what he did, which was just give 3 units FuriousCharge skill. Helbrecht himself is still a beast in CC, especially when he charges, but he's only Str5 on the charge, not impressive against quite a few units. My suggestion is still to lower his cost to around 200 points. If you think some players might think this is low:

A) It isn't.

B)Compare his to the only other models in the C:SM that cost that much: Calgar for only 250 or Tigurious for 230. Both are better and do more for the army than Helbrecht and they cost less/little bit more. I think 200 as he sits stat-wise is just fine.

The other option, which I think would be justifiable and very nice would be keep him at 240, but make his Sword a Relic blade that grants +D3 attacks in the first round of any CC. It will give him a huge punch in CC power being Str7 on the charge with a possible 8 Int6 attacks. Now THAT sounds like a Templar leader. Crap change the Sword to a relic blade with the extra attacks and I will find a way to bring him in every list because he's viable when he can hurt high toughness/walkers.

4)Righteous Zeal, omg Righteous Zeal, have you tried this it's called Righteous Zeal, this Righteous Zeal omg Righteous Zeal. Best thing ever for a drop list, being able to drop down, blow apart a vehicle and fail a save, and then charge into CC with another unit in the the same turn that you landed is just........omg Righteous Zeal. Hands down best thing about the codex is being able to Zeal into CC again, so omg.....Righteous Zeal.

5)At 21pts base per Sword Brethren they felt....right. A point more each than Vanguard with slightly different options and the definitely made their points back in pure awesome factor alone(Just getting to use a Relic blade was worth the entire rest of the squad). The 3xCombi-Melta shots blew apart a LRB when they dropped.

6)The termies......coming in out of DeepStrike from a Locator Beacon with Heroic Intervention + Furious Charge, they multi-charged a LRB, Comand Squad, and a squad of infantry. One LC killed the 4 guys left in the command squad, one LC killed the last 4 guys that were in the Infantry squad(Sword Brethren had Zealed into them as well) and all TH attacks+1 of Varrikan's attacks penetrated the LRB. Amazingly no 6's on the damage table but plenty of 5's, so it was bent over backwards wrecked. Highly impressed with this unit.

 

Overall the pieces of the codex that I used, I really really enjoyed. Granted I only did a small portion of the codex, but that small portion was....amazing. Very very high scores in my books.

I'll continue playtesting some more once I get more guys painted and throw in some feedback towards other parts of the codex.

[Sigismund Himself]

Glad it seems to be working well :jaw:

 

Orbital Bombardment on Helbrecht has always been a concern for me, simply because I don't think he'll ever be standing still to use it... I'll think about upping the Sword of the High Marshals to a relic blade, it does sound tempting.

 

How'd the Emperor's Champion fare?

 

Sword Brethren, I'll definitely knock down to 21.

 

And finally, how'd your opponents feel about the codex?

 

Thanks again for the playtest.