greymeister Posted April 13, 2009 Share Posted April 13, 2009 Points isn't ever the only consideration you should make for an army. That's like saying piece value is all that matters in chess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drudge Dreadnought Posted April 13, 2009 Share Posted April 13, 2009 If the only way to win was to kill 100% of the opponents forces, then you'd need everything to be able to kill its point value. This is not the case. It is completely possible to win certain matchups by killing as little as a 3rd of the opponents army. It is also sometimes more useful to be able to prevent than from killing you than for you to kill them. Hypothetical amounts of points a unit can kill IS a good indication of its effectiveness, but it shouldn't be judged only on this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artangel Posted April 13, 2009 Share Posted April 13, 2009 I will allways look at my force based on what points I feel it will kill. I know this is not an exact science but I feel it's the most tactical way of looking at your Army and the best military leaders of History have often thought like this. I look at things like a 3 man suicide terminator squad with 1 H flamer and 2 combi meltas worth 105 points if they can deepstrike behind a LR and toast it even if they die next turn it was worth it. I feel this sacrafice is not only worth the points but is tactical as well. I would assume that tactics being the key issue goes without saying and is 99% the point of the game, thats the point I'm making looking at if your points can kill more Enemy points will 99.9% lead you to victory surely!. I have been playing 40K for 20 years on and off now and following these rules has given me alot more wins than losses over the years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chillin Posted April 13, 2009 Share Posted April 13, 2009 I will allways look at my force based on what points I feel it will kill. and the best military leaders of History have often thought like this. What are your references, examples and proof of this very bold, yet even more vague and unprovable statement ? :mellow: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted April 14, 2009 Share Posted April 14, 2009 Just to throw things out of wack, I'm using Abaddon with a 10 strong terminator squad with icon of slaanesh in a tournament this weekend. The tournament allows me to take the terminators as a Troops choice, so they won't be able to just ignore it (and Abaddon), especially when it teleports onto an objective. Though I'm not sure if I'd want a 4+ inv instead... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Surreal Cruelty Posted April 14, 2009 Share Posted April 14, 2009 Certainly going to be a toss-up on that. I would certainly consider the 4+ invulnerable more... they ARE going to have a big red "shoot me" sign painted on them, and you're definatly going to be counting on that invulnerable save agasint much of those attacks. Besides 20 to 26+ power weapons attacks (if the dice gods are favoring Abby), means you're likely to be able to hold that objective against all comers when it comes to melee, even if the majority of your attacks are going to happen simultaneously with your opponent. Either way, tell us how it works out for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sons of Horus Posted April 14, 2009 Share Posted April 14, 2009 he suffers a wound precisely because the rules don't say he doesn't Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haakon Ironheart Posted April 14, 2009 Share Posted April 14, 2009 I ve played a lot of 1500p. games with Abby recently, and I must say that if you use your brain, Abby is the best thing we have after rock 'n roll. Many said about fielding 2 DPs for the same cost. I say I prefer Abby. DPs are bolter magnets, cannot be hidden(except if you are using small DPs with tiny wings and for me that's not in the spirit of the game ), cannot be transported, cannot hold vs a flying seer council or any other nasty unit u can think of. Abby has his risks,thats for sure, but he is not as easily killed so your enemy does not get many VPs and he can kill everything from wraithlords to Landraiders. He can also hold for about 4 turns a flying seer council (even destroy it if he gets lucky)and for the tournament scene I participate in thats very important. I put him with the fearless bersekers and many times they charge different units. I also propose to hold his LR in reserve most of the times in order to make sure he gets at least 12" of movement in the turn he enters. Its a bit of a risk if he comes on the fourth turn but he will get his points back when he touches the enemy line. Do not forget the game now is not only about VP but most importantly about objectives. I have lost many times in VPs only to win by holding and contesting objectives...Try to move dear old Abby from an obj...No DP would do what he does...not even two with warptime. And if you roll 1 for more than one turn then look at your opponent face, when your leader stays in the fight after sustaining 40 attacks...He is THE Warmaster... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Humongous Posted April 14, 2009 Share Posted April 14, 2009 I look at things like a 3 man suicide terminator squad with 1 H flamer and 2 combi meltas worth 105 points if they can deepstrike behind a LR and toast it even if they die next turn it was worth it. I feel this sacrafice is not only worth the points but is tactical as well. That's good logic for that kind of sacrificial unit. However, what about a unit that almost never gets killed, or at least requires a disproportionately huge amount of enemy effort to get rid of, but can't dish out enough damage to kill anything like its own PV? This unit certainly would help you win the game (by holding / contesting an objective, and keeping other units safe by drawing enemy fire away), but won't "make its points back". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Blackbone Posted April 16, 2009 Share Posted April 16, 2009 I have been using Abaddon consistently for about a year in various incarnations of an 1850 pt list. He is put in a LR with 7 Berzerkes with Champ. He has a PROFOUND effect on lesser characters and easily decimates a unit a turn without them even being able to swing. His IN6 combined with the Berzerkers furious charge IN5 makes for some nasty initial charges and follow-ups. The only setbacks he has experienced are: Getting LR immobilized early in game Getting lashed away once they are out of LR and in open Assaulted by two MoS DPs Other than that, he just CRUSHES things and is worth his weight in gold. I need to stop using him and paint up some normal HQs so I don't get totally addicted to using him. - Blackbone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warp Angel Posted April 16, 2009 Share Posted April 16, 2009 I will allways look at my force based on what points I feel it will kill. I know this is not an exact science but I feel it's the most tactical way of looking at your Army and the best military leaders of History have often thought like this. And often suffered horrendous casualties as a result. In 5th ed, if those horrendous casualties are your scoring units, and it's not a Kill Point game, you're playing for a draw at best. If you're in a killpoint game and go for the "get your points back" with lots of small, powerful units, you're going to lose by the virtue of having more kill points removed from the table than your opponent. Defense and durability is a huge component in 5th. A stunned land raider with two weapon destroyed results that never killed anything during a 6 turn game, but managed to stay alive and move within 3" of your opponent's objective successfully contested that objective, assisting you with a victory condition. Similarly, by not dying in a kill point game, it denied your opponent achieving part of theirs. In EITHER scenario, the unit that never killed a thing, but survived, still provided value. And if you're using "getting their points back" when thinking about scoring units - it prolly ain't gonna happen. I have yet to have a single tactical squad at 235 points consistently make up even half of that in the course of a normal game. My elites, fast attack, and heavies do my killing, assisted by my tacticals. Chaos is fortunate, in that their troops can sometimes be the primary killers (depending on army build), but I often see princes and terminators doing the bulk of the killing, not the troops. You're also completely discounting maneuver, where a transport makes a difference. Being in the right place to kill is often more imporant than actually killing things. Unless your luck with Rhinos is better than mine, unless I get lucky with tank shock, I never get back 50 points in kills with it. As a matter of fact... the biggest hit against Abaddon so far, is that he's SLOW, and the only real transport option he has makes the combo too expensive. That's a fair assessment if you look at it in terms of what 500 points of something else can do for you instead. But it's not because it will never "earn back it's points". It's more because Abaddon isn't scoring, is a single model, is slow, and may spend turns with his thumb up his terminator armor instead of killing things. Then you've got the fact that he doesn't synergy well - again as others have pointed out - he does nothing to make your army better. But it's not about him "getting his points back". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted April 19, 2009 Share Posted April 19, 2009 so, post-3-game tournament carnage summary: Abaddon - 48 kills, 1 death... 12 Tactical marines, 3 Tyrant guard, Tyrant, 10 genestealers, 9 Tyranid warriors, the emperors champion, 12 members of a crusader squad...then he finally got shot to pieces and I rolled massive fail for armor saves. Still won. Only failed the daemon weapon once. Go, fight, win! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Surreal Cruelty Posted April 20, 2009 Share Posted April 20, 2009 so, post-3-game tournament carnage summary: Abaddon - 48 kills, 1 death... 12 Tactical marines, 3 Tyrant guard, Tyrant, 10 genestealers, 9 Tyranid warriors, the emperors champion, 12 members of a crusader squad...then he finally got shot to pieces and I rolled massive fail for armor saves. Still won. Only failed the daemon weapon once. Go, fight, win! Which mark did you end up going with for the terminators? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted April 20, 2009 Share Posted April 20, 2009 Tzeentch, thankfully. The only time Slaanesh would've been useful was against the single crusader squad and tactical squad they wiped. Otherwise, the warriors, tyrant, and everything else was faster. That 4+ save definitely kept them in the fight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aberrant_unc Posted April 23, 2009 Share Posted April 23, 2009 Has anyone tried deep striking him? I'm considering slapping him in a landraider but I can't decide if I want to do it with zerks or termies. I think the fearless nature of the bezerkers will actually be better, but I want to use the termies since then I don't have to spend a HS slot on the landraider. Anyone deep striked him? What sort of terminator loadout do you field him with in a land raider? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Citizen Snips Posted April 23, 2009 Share Posted April 23, 2009 Has anyone tried deep striking him? I'm considering slapping him in a landraider but I can't decide if I want to do it with zerks or termies. I think the fearless nature of the bezerkers will actually be better, but I want to use the termies since then I don't have to spend a HS slot on the landraider. Anyone deep striked him? What sort of terminator loadout do you field him with in a land raider? Deep striking him with shooty Tzeentch terminators works well. They drop down and unload combi's into something followed hopefully by an assault next turn. If you go the Land Raider route, zerkers are usually the best bet. Fearless, troops that can hold an enemy objective, higher WS than MEQ, same attacks as a regular CC termy for half the price. If you are dead set on terminators, slannesh is best for MEQ, khorne for about everything else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted April 23, 2009 Share Posted April 23, 2009 Deep striking is exactly what I did. First game he came in on the 4th turn and still killed off a scout squad, tactical squad, and dreadnought. Second game they all took out the tyrant, guard, 9 warriors, 10+ genestealers. Etc. Large deep-striking units like tzeentch terminators are quite fun and always useful. Maybe not against armies like Eldar flying circuses, but at least you can autocannon those. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted April 24, 2009 Share Posted April 24, 2009 good thing you didnt play against those .or necron or a bike sm list or another chaos list . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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