Mr. Bleak Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 **WARNING, SPOILERS** Well, I recently finished reading Legion, but besides it being a good read, it left me a bit confused. Now that I know the Alpha legion turned not becuase of Chaos, but to save the glaxy/universe (in their mind) , why are they so Chaosy now with all the horns and stuff? Any help clearing this up is appreciated :lol: Also, on a side note, the whole Alpharius= Omegon thing is cool, as is that all the Alpha Legion modeled themselves directly after Alpharius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prathios Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 Well the easy and logical answer is that the legion was corrupted by its constant contact with chaos. The road to hell is paved with good intentions after all. On a side note you might put a spoiler warning in there and black out the grand plot point of the book. It would really suck to not have read the book and get smashed with that reveal in the first sentence of this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Bleak Posted May 5, 2009 Author Share Posted May 5, 2009 OK, I did as you suggested, but I am still not convinced. Chaos Codex says they have stayed for the most part outside of the Eye of Terror, therefore not in constant contact with chaos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 The simple answer is that the intentions of the BL author (it was Dan Abnett IIRC?) are not the same as those of the authors who wrote the fluff for the last couple of Warhammer 40K editions and Chaos Codices. Studio material has the Alpha Legion as plain traitors. I don't think the Black Library take on them has been acknowledged in any of the studio material yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pacific81 Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 ++SPOILER - DONT READ BELOW IF YOU HAVE YET TO READ LEGION ++ For the first part of your question.. assuming that the cabal were truthful in their predictions of the future, then despite the Alpha Legion siding with Horus, the Warmaster was not successful in dethroning the Emperor - and so rather than the violent, explosive and quick end to mankinds domination of the galaxy, which apparently would have saved it, the victory of the Emperor leads to a gradual decline into destruction (..and, presumably, the 'destruction of the galaxy', although quite from who's perspective that would take place is not made clear..) As Legatus has said, no doubt by and large the depiction of the AL so far is one based purely on the look of other traitor legions. After the information of Legion is taken into consideration, it might seem that a more 'loyalist' look is appropriate. However, even if the reasons for the AL rebelling were noble ones, this does not alter their eventual fate - the death of Horus, and their being driven during 'the scouring' into the Eye of Terror. In close proximity to the Eye, it was a certainty that they would begin to be warped by it - proof of this was seen with the Thousand Sons who similarly had nothing to do with Chaos, yet it was necessary for Ahriman to cast his Rubric spell to prevent their physical corruption. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnDyzZzoRe Posted May 6, 2009 Share Posted May 6, 2009 As Prathios said, the road to Hell is paved with good intentions. There are some great articles on this subject somewhere on the B&C I'll see if I can find them and link them in, but the short answer is, no matter how noble Alpherious' motives were, over time, they were corrupted and his original intentions lost. Of course with the whole theory of the Cabal being puppets of chaos and telling him what Chaos wanted, albeit unintentionally, it validates the turning of the Legion all the more. just my thoughts +EDIT+ -- Found the link, http://forum.blpublishing.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=8065 its a rather long read but VERY interesting! above link is courtesy of TheBaron, on the Black Library Forums Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Almighty Nocturnus Posted May 7, 2009 Share Posted May 7, 2009 That`s an interesting theory, AnDyzZzoRe. (As anyone who has read my rant on the "Just Read Legion" thread knows) I really had a hard time with the Alpha Legion`s reaction to the Cabal. Your theory is a new angle that I hadn`t considered. [ WARNING - for the Xth time - DON`T CONTINUE READING IF YOU HAVEN`T READ "LEGION" YET!] It is possible that the Cabal were just not as powerful or vast as they pretended to be, and were instead manipulated by Chaos. If the Alpha Legion had already turned, they would have no problem "going along with" the Cabal - possibly following orders from Horus - NOT to exterminate them. This would explain why the Apha Legion is indeed a Chaos army, and how easily they could slay Imperial officers (at the end of the novel), and why we have heard nothing about the Cabal beyond "Warhammer 30K" (i.e. not in the 40K canon). ...on the other hand, as to the original post: In the previous codex, IIRC, the Alpha Legion could not summon daemons! IIRC, only cultists could. That might explain their aversion to "full-on Chaos". Maybe that was a hint they are willing to look the part, but not go all the way. ...on the other hand, in one of the Imperial Armo books, there was a listing for Alpha Legion that had a rule called "We are in disguise". IIRC, it told you to paint your Alpha Legion to look like Ultra Marines so they could infiltrate behind Imperial lines. That would seem to imply they have to qualms about altering the appearance of their armor to look like anything they want. In other words, they might paint their armor to look like Ultramarines when needed...or they might put on the horns and Chaos iconography when they need to fool Chaos armies. Random musings finished. Almighty Nocturnus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnDyzZzoRe Posted May 7, 2009 Share Posted May 7, 2009 @ Almighty Nocturnus -- thanks, and I find your points very interesting as well. I guess it all boils down to the usual GW/BL idea of no one knowing the true story behind much and there being a veil of mystery over the history of the fluff. In my mind, I believe that the Cabal were corrupted by Chaos, or at the very least, manipulated by them. I mean the greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was the convince mankind he didnt exist to paraphrase a saying i am very fond of. And some form of chaos, whether it be a god, or a daemon, I believe, would be able to exert it's influence over the Cabal. But I do think that it is most definetley possible, if not probable, that Alpa Legion are not (if it is indeed possible) as corrupted as some of the other Chaos Legions. I guess as with any religion/cause you are going to have extremists as well as followers. Random musings are always interesting! I find some of the most interesting and thought provoking ideas are found this way! spoilers done. ^_^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skirax Posted May 7, 2009 Share Posted May 7, 2009 The simple answer is that the intentions of the BL author (it was Dan Abnett IIRC?) are not the same as those of the authors who wrote the fluff for the last couple of Warhammer 40K editions and Chaos Codices. Studio material has the Alpha Legion as plain traitors. I don't think the Black Library take on them has been acknowledged in any of the studio material yet. It's been established that HH books are the official cannon, and override anything printed before. So now we have a Legion that turned to not turn, and in itself is trying to bring theImperium back to strength? Is it possible that some Alpha Legion become Legion of the Damned? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted May 7, 2009 Share Posted May 7, 2009 It's been established that HH books are the official cannon, and override anything printed before. Do they override anything printed later? And it also has been established that Black Library is never canon. So it depends whom you believe, a BL Author (HH is canon) or a BL Editor (BL is not canon). Is it possible that some Alpha Legion become Legion of the Damned? No. Unless GW changes their background (LotD). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
endless Posted May 7, 2009 Share Posted May 7, 2009 Surely everyone turns to chaos with the best of intentions? Horus WAS the saviour of humanity, and all it's faults. The Emperor wants to replace humanity with something 'better'. Horus and the so-called gods of Chaos fought, and fight, against this. The Alpha Legion may believe that what they do is for the good of mankind, but anyone who does that is doomed to failure. chaos is, possibly, the natural state of the universe, Chaos gods simply a small part of that. The Alpha Legion may simply be more chaotic than Chaotic, if y'know what I mean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prathios Posted May 8, 2009 Share Posted May 8, 2009 Surely everyone turns to chaos with the best of intentions? Horus WAS the saviour of humanity, and all it's faults. The Emperor wants to replace humanity with something 'better'. Horus and the so-called gods of Chaos fought, and fight, against this. The Alpha Legion may believe that what they do is for the good of mankind, but anyone who does that is doomed to failure. chaos is, possibly, the natural state of the universe, Chaos gods simply a small part of that. The Alpha Legion may simply be more chaotic than Chaotic, if y'know what I mean. This isn't a very accurate portrayal of the Emperor at all. He wasn't trying to turn humanity into anything. He embraced what humanity already was and was simply trying to guide them to a future without the influence of Chaos. The path the Emperor walked was the only path humanity could survive in the universe on. I have a thread on this topic you might want to read, its a comprehensive guide to the Emperor and the life he lead, http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=167212 . And Horus was not the saviour of humanity, he was a lost soul doomed by his own arrogance. He didn't try to save humanity he simply wanted to take from the Emperor what he thought he deserved because he allowed himself to be influenced and controlled by Chaos. The Alpha Legion were trying to save humanity, they were just led astray by the Cabal. The Cabal vision may even have been correct but the future is constantly in flux and there may yet be other outcomes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KP13 Posted May 8, 2009 Share Posted May 8, 2009 The reason LEGION doesn't chime with 'established' Alpha Legion fluff is for the reason already stated - quite simply, NO new "GW Codex" Alpha Legion background has been released since LEGION came out! Now, that isn't to say that GW will incorporate anything from LEGION into their "GW Codex" (for lack of a better term) background for the Alpha Legion, but they really should! Having said all that, I am a big fan of LEGION, but Dan has got a LOT of explaining to do in, hopefully, the "next" book in the LEGION series (if there is one!). The Alpha Legion accepted the Cabal's vision WAY too easily, and without a whole lot of 'proof'. At least, not any that we were also privy to. There are plot holes and missing motivations so large you could drive a Battle Cruiser through, but all in all, it was a great ride... Remember, this was the book in which Dan set out deliberately trying to "shock" the 40K world. He wasn't aiming to do that with 'only' the Alpharius/Omegon revelation! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lay Posted May 8, 2009 Share Posted May 8, 2009 NO new "GW Codex" Alpha Legion background has been released since LEGION came out! There's a story in the Space Marines Codex which reads like older fluff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prathios Posted May 8, 2009 Share Posted May 8, 2009 The reason LEGION doesn't chime with 'established' Alpha Legion fluff is for the reason already stated - quite simply, NO new "GW Codex" Alpha Legion background has been released since LEGION came out! Now, that isn't to say that GW will incorporate anything from LEGION into their "GW Codex" (for lack of a better term) background for the Alpha Legion, but they really should! Having said all that, I am a big fan of LEGION, but Dan has got a LOT of explaining to do in, hopefully, the "next" book in the LEGION series (if there is one!). The Alpha Legion accepted the Cabal's vision WAY too easily, and without a whole lot of 'proof'. At least, not any that we were also privy to. There are plot holes and missing motivations so large you could drive a Battle Cruiser through, but all in all, it was a great ride... Remember, this was the book in which Dan set out deliberately trying to "shock" the 40K world. He wasn't aiming to do that with 'only' the Alpharius/Omegon revelation! I love this whole arguement of "not a lot of proof" or they accepted it too easily. The vision Alpharius saw was so real and intense that it was truth to him. He is a primarch, if primarchs say they believe it their legion does to. End of story. I'm sorry you guys couldn't enjoy the vision yourself because its not a comic book with pictures but he does go out of his way to explain how real it was for Alpharius, so just leave it alone already. There is no other way for him to explain how real it was other than to tell you how real it was. If it was real enough to convince a space marine primarch it must have been something special. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Almighty Nocturnus Posted May 8, 2009 Share Posted May 8, 2009 But I think the "accepted it too easily" argument is still correct. Even if the vision Alpharius recieved was totally persuasive - and you`re right, Dan Abnett wrote that section in a way that seems to say it was totally convincing - it still doesn`t account for why the Alpha Legion would just start following the orders/suggestions of some previously unknown clandestine Xeno organization. The biggest ":cuss?" moment in "Legion" was not how "easily" Alpharius accepted the vision the Cabal showed him. The biggest :cuss? moment was why the Alpha Legion did not systematically execute the Cabal after being shown the vision even when the Alpha Legion had every member of the Cabal in the sights of their bolt guns. Unless Mr. Abnett is planning a sequel, we can only conclude that the Alpha Legion neither follows the Emperor nor the forces of Chaos; they are the agents of a secretive xenos organization that - until "Legion" - was never mentioned in Warhammer 40K (or 30K) canon. Almighty Nocturnus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David the Despoiler Posted May 9, 2009 Share Posted May 9, 2009 IMHO Legion is a very sound book with many great plot lines and insights into the Alpha Legion. As is the general belief around my local GW (the former HQ), most of the staff and normals being big fans of the HH books, the Alpha Legion was there to establish that not all of the Chaos Space Marine legions are "evil" per say. Some turned for reasons that the Tau would envy, 'the Greater Good'. Now, I know that this doesn't really answer why Alpharius accepted the Cabal's vision, but perhaps it should be taken into consideration that he was on an ALIEN space ship, designed as beyond anything the human senses could take in. Perhaps this had some part to play in the greater scheme of things. Maybe the ship was a nexus for psychic power, used to lower Alpharius' defenses to allow the vision to spear all that deeper into his belief system? Another reason could be that Alpharius* did not want to cut off a valuable asset. The knowledge of the Cabal could be important enough to him to cause him to hesitate in slaughter the Xenos. I mean, if he IS going to betray the Emperor, why bother listening to his edicts of Xenos being evil? Maybe, due to his young Legion, Alpharius had not developed as deep a hatred for the Aliens as the other Primarchs had. *I use the term Alpharius loosely, including Omegron wherever I said Alpharius. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chunky04 Posted May 9, 2009 Share Posted May 9, 2009 I have my own take on it. The events in Legion were as they appear. After the heresy fails, the Imperium becomes exactly what they were trying to avoid, and to the Alpha Legion is just as evil as Chaos or xenos itself. They remain loyal to the Emperor, but not the Imperium. They keep ties with Chaos mostly out of expedience, since effectively everyone in the galaxy is now their enemy. They're not going to be welcomed back into the Imperium anytime soon after all. In the current timeframe, thy're a bit similar to the Eldar - not on anyone's side but their own, but constantly meddling with other factions to try and achieve their aims. Their have been some of them who succumb to the lure of chaos, but these simply serve to convince all the other fools they are still on the same team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrotherLoki Posted May 11, 2009 Share Posted May 11, 2009 There's always a third pssibility that the AL have their own agenda. According to the IA, 'Alpharius' never revealed his homeworld, even to the Emperor or Horus. It's also implied that the existance of 'Omegon' was also kept hidden. Who's to say that they were ever truly loyal, or truly traitor. I desperately hope that Legion gets a sequel, which will hopefully answer some questions while raising yet more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pacific81 Posted May 11, 2009 Share Posted May 11, 2009 I believe I read that it will indeed get a sequel. I have also read a rumour on another forum that the story will feature a fight between Alpharius and Omegon concerning the actions of the Legion, a fight which will leave only one of them alive. What better way to illustrate the utterly devisive nature of the heresy than have 2 twin brothers each fighting for different sides? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randian Posted May 11, 2009 Share Posted May 11, 2009 The Cabal knew or should have known that powerful warp entities can influence what a psyker sees when using their precog powers. My bet is that the Cabal wasn't knowingly in the service of Chaos, but their visions were fabricated by Tzeentch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt.Sangha Posted May 12, 2009 Share Posted May 12, 2009 Hi guys I am new to the forum and this is my VERY first post. I am a big fan of the HH series because I have always been intrigued by origins of the space marines and the Alpha Legion is the most intriguing, anyway babbling put aside here is what I really want to know, If they were infact siding with Horus becuase it would destroy Chaos then once they knew that Horus lost, and the vision that they saw was not going to happen, why did they stay on the side of chaos? Was it because they were now corrupted Or did they just go back into checking humanities flaws and keeping things in check by creating a balance between chaos and the perceived good of humanity? Maybe they figured that they could in fact do that instead of having humanity wipe itself out for the greater good of the whole universe which is what the cabal wanted. Maybe they became a type of anti hero that kept humanity alive although in a very bad state since they believed the Emperors grand scheme of things was unachievable, but they still wanted humanity to thrive. I dont know i have confused my self some more, this is quite a predicament, im going to have to go back and read Legion again and re-analyze it. It just does not sit right with me that hey are still Chaos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chapter Master Dave Posted May 12, 2009 Share Posted May 12, 2009 welcome to the bolter and chainsword Sgt.Sangha :devil: and your not alone on being confused as i have found myself in the very same predicament <_< Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt.Sangha Posted May 12, 2009 Share Posted May 12, 2009 Well I heard there is going to be a sequel to the book so I guess we are going to have to wait and see what Mr Abnett is truly planning for the secretive legion, but I think I stumbled upon a very good theory in my first post. I guess I am going to have to re read legion after my exams to get a better understanding Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Librarian Benarius Posted May 12, 2009 Share Posted May 12, 2009 As Pacific81 mentions, I also believe that the cabals vision was influenced by Tzeentch as this would be inline with what is menitoned in the ending of "The eye of Teror" by B.J. Bayley. Alternatively they might not have been in league with chaos but still wanted to fool the humans into this state of arrested development because if humanity continued to thrive all other xenos would be exterminated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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