Is Chaos scary enough?

[Drudge Dreadnought]

In the fluff and story of the game, nothing compares with the power of Chaos. Nothing inspires the same sort of terror. But do the rules do this justice? How well is fluff reflected on the tabletop?

 

There is, of course, the matter of movie marines. Story wise, 1 squad of marines, loyal or traitor, is an equal match for <insert massive amount of foes here>. But obviously they want you buying more than 1 squad of marines, and it wouldn't be that interesting of a game if you only had that many to play with. So some inflation of the number of guys on the table is acceptable and appropriate, atleast to some degree. But there are other issues.

 

Consider, if you will, the cult marines. They are hundreds, if not thousands, of years old. They have sold their souls to the dark gods for power. They ought to be amazingly powerful. When it comes to meta gaming, for the most part they are. But are they powerful for the right reasons?

 

Take Khorne berserkers for example. Veterans of thousands of years of war with the most dangerous enemies in the most dangerous conditions. Each one has been around long enough for there to be epic sagas about them. Each one has slaughtered countless enemies. Each one has resisted spawndom, and the innumerable perils of the warp. But when it comes down to it, the reason they are so good on the table is point efficiency. Yeah, they are a great assault unit. But plenty of races have better ones. Their main advantage is that they are a strong assault unit that is fairly cheap for what it does, and is scoring.

 

Shouldn't their main advantage be that they are the damn best, most terrifying assault troops out there?

 

Khorne berserkers have sold their souls, and have 1 extra attack and 1 extra weaponskill to show for it. They have the same number of attacks as a loyalist veteran, and 25% more weaponskill. Those silly berserkers, why sell your soul for daemonic gifts and spend thousands of years fighting for the blood god when you can get just about as good with a couple hundred years of disciplined combat in the name of the emperor? Despite the fluff-irony of this situation, doesn't this seem a bit wrong?

 

Of course, berserkers have furious charge. Yeah, thats cool and all. So do orcs. Berserkers are the living servants of the god of hate and rage, but apparently a bunch of orcs looking for a good fight are just as ferocious. I suppose this is justifiable because orcs need to have something to give them good CC stats without having str4 base, but lets see who else has furious charge? Death company for one. That makes sense to me. The Black Rage is certainly on par with a berserk frenzy. But wait, so do penal legionaires if you roll right.

 

So, lets see. A bunch of petty murderers and rapists get to be as berserk as the chosen of the god of being berserk? No. They get to be MORE berserk! If you roll and get Psychopaths, they get Furious Charge, Fleet, and Counter Attack. Penal legionaries get to run faster than the an insane, power armored space marine that exists for no reason than to charge at people as fast and hard as possible. Penal legionaires also react to and recieve a charge better than the insane space marines who've said "The only order worth remembering is ATTACK!"

 

But wait, it gets better. If you roll up Knife Fighters instead, you get rending. So, these guys are so psychopathic that their little combat knives and dirty fighting tactics can ignore armor and wound anything. But the superhuman wieldeing a chain axe larger than a person can't. This makes so much sense!

 

Anyway, there are plenty more examples but i'll stop there before this turns into too much of a rant.

[Kadaeux]

What you have forgotten (seemingly) is that while yes Chaos ARE supposed to be better than just about everyone except Loyalist Marines GW also has to consider game balance.

 

They can't just go an "Ok, every unit NOT a Space Marine or something really special has to have stats lower than this line." Because then nobody would play the other races as they would have to invest far too much money to get a competitive list. I mean look how large Ork and Imperial Guard armies have to get to be competitive. Now double that. Because that is what the changes you're talking about would do.

 

Either the Space Marine and Chaos points costs would have to double with a great statline increase or everything elses points cost would have to be halved. Either way you're looking at a profit loss from the company as either people buy less Space Marines and Chaos (due to their higher points costs etc) or a loss in profit as people abandon their armies due to simply being unable to afford the numbers needed.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

What you have forgotten (seemingly) is that while yes Chaos ARE supposed to be better than just about everyone except Loyalist Marines GW also has to consider game balance.

 

They can't just go an "Ok, every unit NOT a Space Marine or something really special has to have stats lower than this line." Because then nobody would play the other races as they would have to invest far too much money to get a competitive list. I mean look how large Ork and Imperial Guard armies have to get to be competitive. Now double that. Because that is what the changes you're talking about would do.

 

Either the Space Marine and Chaos points costs would have to double with a great statline increase or everything elses points cost would have to be halved. Either way you're looking at a profit loss from the company as either people buy less Space Marines and Chaos (due to their higher points costs etc) or a loss in profit as people abandon their armies due to simply being unable to afford the numbers needed.

 

While i agree with this, i also adressed it in my second paragraph, and with my nod towards orcs needing furious charge. However, if you look at my two examples that i used in this post, you'd find it doesn't really apply for the most part. And by that i mean that if penal legion troopers worked differently, or even didn't exist, you wouldn't suddenly see guard players mass quitting.

[Corpse.]

If it was more fluff translation into rules set. (Forget movie marines), at the very least Berzerkers would have rage+furious charge+fleet as their primary special rules.

 

Thousand Sons would have feel no pain+slow and purposeful+night vision.

Plague Marines would have feel no pain+eternal warrior+1 wound.

Noise Marines would have scout+accute senses+fleet.

On top of mark bonuses and fearlessness of course.

 

But that also means that fluffwise eldar would have somewhat invincible vehicles beyond 36" range due to mirages, and Tau would have assault 2 rail rifles. (dont ask why, it was a long discussion)

 

Also, obliterators would be able to make any weapon, including a battle cannon out of their own body. That sound right?

 

Game is just a game, we get away with as much fluff to game translation as possible. We'll worry about realism as soon as GW's money futon stops being comfortible.

[TheDarkApostle]

Obliterators are only able to morph what they have absorbed previously. Same principle of only being able to withdraw that which you have already deposited in a bank.

 

Well, if, and that a big IF, an Obliterator managed to absorb an entire Battlecannon, (mind you that the bigger the weapon is, the more time it takes, and it's not just the barrel, it's all the extras as well) then of course he would morph it out.

 

How well he'd be able to shoot it however? Not very good I think :P

 

TDA

[Night Stalker]

Chaos Chosen would have WS6 BS5 S4 T4 W3 I5 A3 LD10 SV 2+/4++ and ethernal warrior/furious charge/fleet/fnp/counterattack etc if you want to play fluffy chaos marines. Yeah, kinda cool, but 150 points for just one marine is bit much ...

[aberrant_unc]

The whole "terror" thing is an interesting issue. The fear, terror, and psychology rules in Fantasy are robust. 40K really doesn't use anything like that.

 

I for one would like to see things like MCs, certain squads (night lords, assault marines, Nids, defilers, etc.) have some sort of fear effect that took leadership into account. Problem is, it would be tough to balance.

[chillin]

Yea, I think it's just game ballance. How do you show a brzrkr (or a reg undivided csm for that matter) for how good he really is. Have csm's so powerful that no one could play anything else with much hope of winning ? Or make csm (brzrkrs etc) so expensive that you could only afford a couple of squads in a 1500 pt game ?

There are definately problems where gameplay meets fluff. Like why is a chaos lord that has been commanding armies, and fighting for thousands of years and has the blessing of the chaos gods are weaker then a reg s/m capt. or even a s/m SC ??

The most out of sorts example you gave was the penal legion getting stuff like FC and rending (I've never played against them). A penal legion shouldn't be as good as a reg IG, just dirt cheap and driven on in hoards. If they wanted someone alittle better then reg IG in hth make them commandos or special forces, something like that. A penal legion shoud get no advantages (what do you think would happen if a bunch of prison inmates had to fight a bunch of Navy Seals or British Special Forces ?? Hell, a squad of reg. solders for that matter?)

[Kadaeux]

I for one would like to see things like MCs, certain squads (night lords, assault marines, Nids, defilers, etc.) have some sort of fear effect that took leadership into account. Problem is, it would be tough to balance.

 

Your squad sees a Greater Daemon roll 10d6. for every squad in your army.

 

On any roll that isn't a 6 your entire army runs away...

 

:)

[Smurfalypse]

Of course, berserkers have furious charge. Yeah, thats cool and all. So do orcs. Berserkers are the living servants of the god of hate and rage, but apparently a bunch of orcs looking for a good fight are just as ferocious. I suppose this is justifiable because orcs need to have something to give them good CC stats without having str4 base, but lets see who else has furious charge? Death company for one. That makes sense to me. The Black Rage is certainly on par with a berserk frenzy. But wait, so do penal legionaires if you roll right.

 

So, lets see. A bunch of petty murderers and rapists get to be as berserk as the chosen of the god of being berserk? No. They get to be MORE berserk! If you roll and get Psychopaths, they get Furious Charge, Fleet, and Counter Attack. Penal legionaries get to run faster than the an insane, power armored space marine that exists for no reason than to charge at people as fast and hard as possible. Penal legionaires also react to and recieve a charge better than the insane space marines who've said "The only order worth remembering is ATTACK!"

 

But wait, it gets better. If you roll up Knife Fighters instead, you get rending. So, these guys are so psychopathic that their little combat knives and dirty fighting tactics can ignore armor and wound anything. But the superhuman wieldeing a chain axe larger than a person can't. This makes so much sense!

 

Anyway, there are plenty more examples but i'll stop there before this turns into too much of a rant.

 

 

Not to be a dork or compare this to something of a real situation BUT:

 

"Confront them with annihilation, and they will then survive; plunge them into a deadly situation, and they will then live. When people fall into danger, they are then able to strive for victory." Art of War.

 

This could be a fairly easy explaination to the penal legion, when you have no choice but to fight for your life you tend to have a certain amount of aggression and desperation to the battle. I know this doesnt apply everywhere but it applys to this exact example. Also its a game and for the sake of balance the rules are fine for the penal guys, the rest of their stats are kinda bad, no save basically, and no transport options, but again im looking at it from a balance standpoint not a fluff standpoint.

 

Smurfalypse

[DuskRaider]

I agree with what's been said... I don't see how a Penal Legion would be faster then the chosen of Khorne. And truthfully... Berserkers are quite underpowered. 3.5 'Zerks were more in line to what they should be, it's a pity they didn't just bring those over to the 4th Ed codex (that's right, we still don't have a 5th Ed Codex). then again, I blame it all on Gav Thorpe and the fact he doesn't know his arse from his elbow... And by the way, I'm not just the president of the I Hate Gav Thorpe & Every Codex He's Touched Club, I'm also a member!

[Olgerth Istaarn]

Lining up fluff and rules is a fool's errand, especially in the light of the new Guard codex (and then whoever's codex after that, and that, and so on and so forth).

 

As soon as a new codex rolls up, everyone else takes it in the shorts. It's marketing strategy. A couple years from now, Codex: Chaos CSM might include, say, plague marines that have 2 wounds and FNP, but whoever follows will have a unit that costs 5 points, has S6 AP2 36'' weapon, fleet, rending and counter-attack and comes in squads of up to 50.

 

It's just the way the cookie crumbles. Close your eyes, cover your ears and sing LALALALALALALALALALALA if you can't take it.

[chillin]

This could be a fairly easy explaination to the penal legion, when you have no choice but to fight for your life you tend to have a certain amount of aggression and desperation to the battle. I know this doesnt apply everywhere but it applys to this exact example.

 

Desperation and aggression are fine, but neither inable you to win a battle you can not win, neither make you possess skill, or training, or discipline, that you do not possess. Prisoners have been used as "troops" different times in history, results are always the same, they either die or run away. Like I said if they wanted to give some IG a better shot in CC, that's fine, make them some sort of highly trained special forces or something (like the Lucifer Blacks in the Legion novel). Penial legions should not get FC or rending or anything like that desperation and fear certainly do not = skill. Penal legion should be a dirt cheap meat shield, with reg stats, poor weopons, and Ld. of 7 which drops to Ld.5 if guards are killed, engaged in combat, out out of 12" range.

[Night Stalker]

Penal Legion is old last chancers squad (with different rules, but you get it), not random prisoner squad.

[Chaos Lord Shamrockius]

I can see what's being said about balance etc, but isn't that where points values come in? There's a reason that you get 2.5 Orks or IG for 1 CSM/SM. Part of that is the stats line, part is due to a better save and part of that is cos it's what makes a hoarde army. Which is reason number 2 I stopped collecting Orks. Reason number 1 was that I got sick of painting green.

 

I too think that there should be better "powers" for Chaos. I think it's good that Sorcerers with MoT get an extra power, after all, they are the chosen of the god of sorcery and magic. I also like the daemon weapon laws, whereby if you roll a 1 it attacks the weilder. It gives you extra bonuses but also makes you realise that there could be consequences.

 

At the end of the day, yes all Chaos troops should be much more powerful than they are. I just fear that if they gave us all these wonderous gifted CSMs and their cultist styles etc, that they would also give us an innumberable amount of "side effects" of these too such as they have with the dreadnaughts. I can see (especially after reading Fulgrim) that Noise Marines get a hit that goes through his armour but not wounded, they lie down, have some sort of orgasm, get back up and find their combatant stood over them somewhat confused and cannot attack back during that round of combat. But i can see that being on a roll of 5 or 6. On a 1-4, he could be led there too long and the opponent just stands over him and shoots him. It's a win-lose situation. I like these, it shows the bonuses and the pitfalls for their turning to Chaos. Like Khârn's rules about just wanting to hit anything so if no enemy is nearby then he'll go for the nearest unit.

 

I'd like more "fairness" though. I don't think the fact that our only good HS option is the Oblit. I don't like that none of our Fast Attack options are actually any good. I don't like that all of our special characters are either really over priced or are not overly beneficial to our army as a whole. With all th might of the Chaos god(s) of their choosing, that they couldn't muster up a little gift for every one of their followers like the way that loyalist commander Special Characters are able to affect everyone under their command.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

So is this just another instance of our current codex being lame? How was the previous codex when it came to these issues?

[Night Stalker]

it was less lame, as FoC does not affect unit as currently (everything was scoring), and units were stronger than current (multiple veteran skills, true marks, gifts for champions) ...

[Smurfalypse]

This could be a fairly easy explaination to the penal legion, when you have no choice but to fight for your life you tend to have a certain amount of aggression and desperation to the battle. I know this doesnt apply everywhere but it applys to this exact example.

 

Desperation and aggression are fine, but neither inable you to win a battle you can not win, neither make you possess skill, or training, or discipline, that you do not possess. Prisoners have been used as "troops" different times in history, results are always the same, they either die or run away. Like I said if they wanted to give some IG a better shot in CC, that's fine, make them some sort of highly trained special forces or something (like the Lucifer Blacks in the Legion novel). Penial legions should not get FC or rending or anything like that desperation and fear certainly do not = skill. Penal legion should be a dirt cheap meat shield, with reg stats, poor weopons, and Ld. of 7 which drops to Ld.5 if guards are killed, engaged in combat, out out of 12" range.

 

Military units have been put in situations where there is no retreat and no escape. The usual result is victory in fact, One of the most memorable was the Normandy invasion where we had to take the beach or literally die there.

Now penal units i dont know alot about but im sure there are some individual situations where they might have performed well in the course of history (though im sure the % of these acts is very low).

 

My point to the whole thing was fluff doesnt equal tabletop and it usually never will, as Olgerth Istaarn said "It's just the way the cookie crumbles. Close your eyes, cover your ears and sing LALALALALALALALALALALA if you can't take it."

[Smurfalypse]

Also here is a nifty link to something i found on wikipedia about a penal unit in germany. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirlewanger_Brigade

 

This is not a pretty story and in fact the commander was very much a raging lunatic, but they did serve a good majority of WWII and did fairly well in a few battles (though always losing large numbers).

[Drudge Dreadnought]

This could be a fairly easy explaination to the penal legion, when you have no choice but to fight for your life you tend to have a certain amount of aggression and desperation to the battle. I know this doesnt apply everywhere but it applys to this exact example.

 

Desperation and aggression are fine, but neither inable you to win a battle you can not win, neither make you possess skill, or training, or discipline, that you do not possess. Prisoners have been used as "troops" different times in history, results are always the same, they either die or run away. Like I said if they wanted to give some IG a better shot in CC, that's fine, make them some sort of highly trained special forces or something (like the Lucifer Blacks in the Legion novel). Penial legions should not get FC or rending or anything like that desperation and fear certainly do not = skill. Penal legion should be a dirt cheap meat shield, with reg stats, poor weopons, and Ld. of 7 which drops to Ld.5 if guards are killed, engaged in combat, out out of 12" range.

 

Military units have been put in situations where there is no retreat and no escape. The usual result is victory in fact, One of the most memorable was the Normandy invasion where we had to take the beach or literally die there.

Now penal units i dont know alot about but im sure there are some individual situations where they might have performed well in the course of history (though im sure the % of these acts is very low).

 

My point to the whole thing was fluff doesnt equal tabletop and it usually never will, as Olgerth Istaarn said "It's just the way the cookie crumbles. Close your eyes, cover your ears and sing LALALALALALALALALALALA if you can't take it."

 

While i do not disagree with this, i think the issue is the amount. The rules must certainly break way from the fluff at times, and i have no issue with that. But the amount they break away i think is often in excess of how much it should and needs to. The berserkers vs penal troopers i think is the best example.

[Smurfalypse]

You are right dread.

 

I tend to look at fluff as one thing and the actual tabletop as another. I dont mix the two very much, this is probably why it doenst bother me to much.

[Dràyhèn]

Who denies the current codex is lame? Who denies there were way too many good things taken from us?

No one, I guess, except those Renegades.

 

Yeah, it's sad that the fluff isn't compatible with our rules.

Units that could've been given better stats and rules include, at least;

 

-Chosen

-Possessed

-Dreadnoughts (dreadclaw option, anyone?)

-Cult troops (Acute senses, HCCW, fleet...)

 

Armoury, it added a big piece of character and flavour, it gave a feeling of the blessed warriors of the dark gods of chaos-thingy. Now we're just, well, RENEGADES!

 

Yes, this is a rant, but face it, our chosen should've better stats and all, to give a feeling of some 'Dark Custodes', like Kikkala's 'Custodes' word bearer unit. Or they should be able to be modified into some IW-specialist squad with tank-hunters, scouts, acute senses and like. Yes?

Cult troops, though I admit they're fine and I greatly like them the way they are now, I would've given them more special rules, just to reflect their true nature. Now they're just hedonistic, aggressive, mystic or diseased chaos marines, there's no rule to reflect their normally long age and 'vet status. Yeah, I admit, they would've been a little bit more expensive then, and mainly would've died as easily, but they arn't that cheesey even now. A little boost hadn't hurted anyone badly.

 

And the possessed, there's nothing to justify their supernatural tracking/hunting skills, their raging nature, their true cc-capability or the agile moving.

Oh god why only one of those abilities apply, they won't all mutate in the same way. They could've been done fluffy and balanced, like many other things. I just can't comprehend how didn't Thorpe and Alessio realize that potential. I see only the fast looming deadline as an explanation to this.

 

Sorry this rant, went a bit off-topic, but I really had to express my frustration ! Take this with a pinch of salt

[incinerator950]

You also have to consider, GW has to spoil their little Smurf Marines because it reals in the most money.

 

Warhammer 40k changed rules because of models and sales. Fluff follows suit but the fluff keeps getting worse or more stale each bleeding time

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Another example of something that is just silly is defilers getting taken down by small things like powerfists. The rules just do not do their model or fluff justice.

[Epic Thoughts]

I think our codex suffers from having an author who (judging from his battle reps in WD) doesn't have a clue on how to play the game.

 

And I have to disagree about the power fist thing. If power fists can rip open Leman Russes, a Defiler is fair game. Both in lore, and on the table top.