Is Chaos scary enough?

[DuskRaider]

I miss the old rules for Nurgles Rot, it made me feel like it was good to be a bloated, walking slab of diseased flesh in powah armor.

 

The only problem with that was then you teamed up with another player... "Oops! I just killed 2 of your Berserkers with my Nurgle's Rot on accident. Sorry!" Otherwise, it was quite nasty.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

David, a lot of what you are saying is either wrong or uninformed.

 

It still is, imho. Chaos might not be the glorified representation of the Chaos Legions that you remember, but it has been simplified to allow gaming to be a lot more simple. The armies can still be amazingly unique. I've seen armies that vary from taking the very minimum of troops as CSM and massing on Vindicators/Defilers for mass templates, Oblits/Lash Princes, Khorne lists with Berzerkers coming out of every end with or without Khârn, Noise Marine lists that simply annihilate everything power armored, the list goes on! Even my personal list, I have not seen one person use anything akin to it

 

Unique is all well and good, but they cannot be anywhere near as unique as the old codex allowed. More importantly, they can't be unique and powerful. There are only 2 builds in the current codex that are considered competitive.

 

And the best part is that the list is no longer limited to one power. It can be, if you so choose it. There's nothing stopping you from making a SUCCESFUL 1ksons list (maybe the money, but that's it) that can hold objectives and take the opponent's. Ever heard of Rhino's to combat Slow and Purposeful? Not to mention Plague Marines. They are monsters. That fnp and toughness (5) is a pain in the arse to deal with, not to mention the defensive grenades. I don't know what they were like back in the days of the Legions, but I know that right now, the Death Guard are still an army to be rightfully feared.

 

No, you cannot make a competitive thousand sons list. They are friendly games only.

 

Now I also hear people complaining about lack of options and fun. I happen to think that one of the most fun things about the current Chaos Army is its unpredictable and hysterical nature! Daemon Weapons and Dreadnoughts in particular. They reflect the nature of Chaos (just like the Eye of the Gods table in whfb) fairly well. In the previous edition, could you field a Chaos Lord with up to 18 strength 5 attacks? How about a Lord that's toughness (6) with a Daemon Weapon that wounds everything on 4+? What about a Dread that could have a potential 18" move?

 

Having unreliable stuff is fun? It'd be fine if you actually gained something for it. But daemon weapons struggle to outperform lightning claws, cost more, and eat your face. So what's the point? Plus, Chaos Lords are just terrible. And the answer to most of those questions is yes.

 

Chaos is still fun, but it now has drawbacks, like its meant to. This is called balance. I'm sorry that you can't field whole squads of infiltrating Cultists with power weapons that move like beasts. I'm sorry that you can't use basilisks any more. But imho, the new Chaos list is definitely much more viable and a lot easier to work with. I am almost positive that once you made a list in the old book, you'd almost never change it due to the complexity of such a thing. Right now, I've played with three different lists in the space of a week (two weekends, rather).

 

The current codex is considered more competitive and cheesy than the old one. Remember, we have things like point costs to balance out units with lots of fancy toys. And i really don't see anything that difficult about list building in the old codex.

 

And believe me, I am very doubtful that the "new Gen" chaos players are complaining about anything with the book, except the stupid rules involving Icons, where if the bearer goes, so does the mark. I know I'm not. My Dread went insane twice in one game, killing a Rhino (my own) that I set up just for that purpose AND charging an enemy rhino the very next game. I was cheering the little guy on the whole time!

 

I'm a new gen chaos player. Only been playing a year. Honestly i've never heard of anybody actually liking the current chaos codex that has played for any significant amount of time with it. Sure fire frenzy is amusing the first few times. Come back in 100 games and tell me if you still like it.

 

Maybe it's time that you guys stopped bashing GW and appreciate the fact that they're trying to make this game fun and not restricted by the fluff. And honestly, if you want to field the older lists, why not just ask your friend if you can, I'm sure they wouldn't mind if you had the Codex. I know I wouldn't. I just played a game against Space Wolves today and found myself having a great time watching my opponent struggle holding 105 dice in two hands and then rolling them! Old Codices haven't ceased existing, they are still viable to use if you want to play a game against a friend and get a blast from the past.

 

God forbid we had to stick to all the wonderful fluff this game has. As for the rest, because there are these pesky things called rules and edition changes.

 

I will ask you again, can you do half of the stuff in the previous edition that you could in this one? Could you field the ridiculous Chaos Lord + D/W combos that you can now? Could you field squads of 20? Could you put your Berzerkers in a Land Raider to give 'em a 20" charge? How about a Dread that just shot a Plasmacannon twice at your opponent's Terminators that deep stroke right beside it? Could you take Bikers that are toughness (6)? Could you take Bikers with 4 attacks a pop on the charge or I5? How about Terminators with 3 attacks base or I5 or 4+ invulns and no SaP? The list goes on, my fellow villains.

 

Previous edition had several different daemon weapons per god in fact. You could do pretty much everything you can now, plus 4 times as much other stuff, and all at a decent level of competitiveness.

[refuse]

It still is, imho. Chaos might not be the glorified representation of the Chaos Legions that you remember, but it has been simplified to allow gaming to be a lot more simple.

Your argument falls apart right there, because every codex after that stopped being so simpified.

Honestly, the current Chaos codex is a phamplet, not a codex.

 

Now I also hear people complaining about lack of options and fun. I happen to think that one of the most fun things about the current Chaos Army is its unpredictable and hysterical nature! Daemon Weapons and Dreadnoughts in particular. They reflect the nature of Chaos (just like the Eye of the Gods table in whfb) fairly well. In the previous edition, could you field a Chaos Lord with up to 18 strength 5 attacks? How about a Lord that's toughness (6) with a Daemon Weapon that wounds everything on 4+? What about a Dread that could have a potential 18" move?

Chaos != stupid or random.

Chaos is the opposite of order. By the logic of the first part of your statement, the imperial forces shouldn't be allowed any options, or they should be mandated their actions.

Sorry, Randomness was a gimic of 2nd edition (virus grenades, vortex grenades). The ability to have a predictable army (see what they did for the blood angels) is part of having a competitive army. If you want to play in a tourney, you can't take Daemon Weapons nor Dreads, as they may (unlike every other weapon in the game, including the way orks behave) hurt your own units. Sorry this isn't the goblin's with balls spinning around hurting their own units.

 

Chaos is still fun, but it now has drawbacks, like its meant to. This is called balance. I'm sorry that you can't field whole squads of infiltrating Cultists with power weapons that move like beasts. I'm sorry that you can't use basilisks any more.

Basalisk removal = balance?

But imho, the new Chaos list is definitely much more viable and a lot easier to work with. I am almost positive that once you made a list in the old book, you'd almost never change it due to the complexity of such a thing. Right now, I've played with three different lists in the space of a week (two weekends, rather).

I changed my list regularly. (I have a brain and like to use it)

I also had every unit I could use for a Emperor's Children (not slaanesh renegade) army.

I am positive that I did change my list. The nice thing was, I could change it a little, or alot. Not just upgrade #1 vs Upgrade #2 in the current codex.

 

And better yet, the modelling meant something, not just "count as".

Lord in Terminator armor with great weapon and he was a sorcerer with the daemonic visage (face of a steed of slaanesh)

http://forum.emperorschildren.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10002/Sorcerercloseup.jpg

vs the lord with lightning claws, in terminator armor

http://forum.emperorschildren.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10002/normal_29lord.jpg

 

Champions with style

http://forum.emperorschildren.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10002/normal_lordpowered.jpg

http://forum.emperorschildren.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10002/normal_ecapothicary.jpg

http://forum.emperorschildren.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10002/normal_ecchaplain.jpg

 

an HQ with options and style

http://forum.emperorschildren.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10002/Champions.jpg

Vs option #1 and Option #2. The ability to play different lists (because you only have 3 options for lords) isn't a different lists. Before people could make an army that met their flavor, and could get into the history of the army, the feel and create a background. Now they are reduced to Lord or not, Terminator or not. . .

Where is Lord Commander Bowman of the 29th Great Company of the Emperor's Children, serving from the time of the chapter's (before it was a legion) founding!

Lt Barry, 2nd in command and sorcerer who was gifted the face of a Steed of Slaanesh, carrying a nemisis weapon taken from a killed Grey Knight.

Lt Pelvis, sonic champion and embracer of the noise marine doctrine, chaplain of the legion

Lt Apothicary Scarius, dark dabler in the use of poisons and combat stimulants (sometimes mixing them up and prone to overdoses).

 

 

Now, well they are limited in what they can take. Better! Design through simplicity? Invalidated in the later codecies, including the orks that gave the ability to modify the army by taking certain named characters. And with less randomness (sorry chaos).

 

 

Gone are armies of the Emperor's Children like the 29th Great Company of the Emperor's Children

http://forum.emperorschildren.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10002/wholearmy.jpg

 

Now?

Well now the chosen are more slaaneshy, then the lord, and the troops, well they just carry bolters.

Not that mine didn't before:

http://forum.emperorschildren.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10002/Squad9.jpg

But they had the option not to.

http://forum.emperorschildren.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10002/Squad2.jpg

Heck they even carried BP/CCW

http://forum.emperorschildren.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10002/Squad6.jpg

 

Not sure how "count the sonic blasters as bolters" works for your argument.

Yeah, count as.

Oh and that doesn't balance the game. Simple != better, nor balanced.

 

 

Before, I would vary my army by my mood, and the commander I chose.

Lord Commander Bowman demanded tactical flexibility and as the commander of the Great Company used many elites.

 

Commander Barry, daemon touched would use daemons as his shock troops (fragile and delicate the daemonettes were), followed and supported by mid range support fire (usually including the possesed vehicles in teh units armories)

http://forum.emperorschildren.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10002/normal_TopDown.jpg

http://forum.emperorschildren.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10002/normal_PredRear.jpg

http://forum.emperorschildren.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10002/normal_predfront.jpg

Where he had a special fondness for the predator, it too possessed by a steed of slaanesh

 

The apothicary took shock troops, hooked up on combat drugs and weilding BP/CCW charging from Rhinos that weakened the enemies resolve!

 

Pelvis also used the rhinos with spirit breaking sonics (ok, the same rhinos!) and he brougth along the morale breaking (and devistating) Dreadnaught

http://forum.emperorschildren.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10002/paintedDread.jpg

Who (then not now) was the center point of the army, supporting and breaking the enemy lines, not randomly killing his own troops.

 

 

Now, well.

Pick one from HQ, 1-3 from elites, 3-6 from troops, 1-2 from HS and give them Icons of Slaanesh!

Count them as the 29th Great Company.

 

And believe me, I am very doubtful that the "new Gen" chaos players are complaining about anything with the book, except the stupid rules

 

involving Icons, where if the bearer goes, so does the mark. I know I'm not. My Dread went insane twice in one game, killing a Rhino (my own) that I set up just for that purpose AND charging an enemy rhino the very next game. I was cheering the little guy on the whole time!

Sorry new generation?

You mean the ones that don't know any better?

The ones that don't know that Slaanesh and Khorne are eternal enemies? That think Chaos is more structured then Orks (less options for units in Chaos), or IG, or any of the codecies to come out after the chaos godex? The ones that know what Chaos was in Slaves to Darkness and The Lost and the Damned? The ones that survived the 3.0 codex (arguably the only codex thinner and with less options then the current, heck they are pretty much the same). Well they know better! Heck again we could point out that the current codex is the 3.0 codex with some changes (like removing daemons).

 

But back to your points

You enjoy Randomness, I enjoy Chaos (as mentioned in the start of this thread) as being scary, dark and dangerous. Not more laughable then orks and their gretchin. Sorry if I wanted a funny army with humor at having my army destroy itself, I would play Fantasy (where the rules mentioned come from). I want chaos, dangerous dark, with lots of variation (I have a brain, I can do the math). I don't want pokechaos, where I choose card X and power Y to build my army. Heck my 10 year old son could design a chaos army then and now.

 

Maybe it's time that you guys stopped bashing GW and appreciate the fact that they're trying to make this game fun and not restricted by the fluff.

Hold on!

You do realize that the game rules aren't that hot, and you play 40k for the fluff? I mean by the logic you are spouting, not using the fluff inplies they could put out one codex (except for wanting to make money) and everyone could just use that. I mean, if you ignore the fluff, what seperates the armies? powered armored IG? I mean the only reason they don't have it now is the fluff. Powered armored Tyranids?

The fluff defines the game, and the armies, and the background and why the armies are suppose to play the way they do. Beserker's are beserkers and act that way because in the fluff X, Y and Z happened. Not because some pokechaos codex writer decided to give them ability X (when they weren't tapped).

 

And honestly, if you want to field the older lists, why not just ask your friend if you can, I'm sure they wouldn't mind if you had the Codex. I know I wouldn't. I just played a game against Space Wolves today and found myself having a great time watching my opponent struggle holding 105 dice in two hands and then rolling them! Old Codices haven't ceased existing, they are still viable to use if you want to play a game against a friend and get a blast from the past.

And now, you flip a coin to see who wins!

Checkers is fun, but not challenging, chess is alot more challenging. Your logic is faulty. 105 dice! He couldn't roll them in groups? I am sure rolling 2 dice for a unit (isn't that like Epic?) is more fun! I mean flip a coin, if heads you unit dies, if tails it lives! Does that make it more fun?

 

I will ask you again, can you do half of the stuff in the previous edition that you could in this one? Could you field the ridiculous Chaos Lord + D/W combos that you can now? Could you field squads of 20? Could you put your Berzerkers in a Land Raider to give 'em a 20" charge? How about a Dread that just shot a Plasmacannon twice at your opponent's Terminators that deep stroke right beside it? Could you take Bikers that are toughness (6)? Could you take Bikers with 4 attacks a pop on the charge or I5? How about Terminators with 3 attacks base or I5 or 4+ invulns and no SaP? The list goes on, my fellow villains.

I can't do 1/2 the stuff I did.

Not just the abuses (and there are some in this codex, and every codex). But I can't field an army of S4 mobile troops that are different then marines. I can't field my daemons (count as generic daemons sure! Count as tyranids too!) with my army. I can't have my 4th cohort fight along side the Emperor's Children!

http://forum.emperorschildren.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10002/normal_Day3examples4.JPG

I really can only play Renegades with random Dreads and daemon weapons! Yeah! That rocks and makes the game alot more fun.

 

Sorry, I rather play against my friend's all Khorne army, with my All Slaanesh army (that stays slaanesh the whole game), regardless of how many dice, or difficulty in doing simple math (unit x with upgrade y costs z).

 

But to your point, I can't field my 29th Great Company. Not unless we do alot of count as. Lots of Terminators that are just, well "normal" now, not weilding the much more powerful (sarcasm) sonic blasters!

http://forum.emperorschildren.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10002/NMTerminators.jpg

They count as, well, every other terminator.

 

Or warp amp rhinos that follow units to help break morale (playing blashphemous songs)

http://forum.emperorschildren.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10002/b_rightwarpamp.jpg

 

Now, well as you said, it is much better, because we don't have to worry about my rhinos being different then anyone elses, or my troops being all that different. Heck even my Terminators really are not that different.

 

You don't see different armies, you see different selections of troops. The choices are not that different. Lord with X, and or Y and or Z. Daemon princes are all the same on the board.

 

Gone is the prince of Slaanesh, bull faced and winged, weilding a great weapons. Covered in Combat Drugs made from the tears of those he tortures.

http://forum.emperorschildren.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10002/DPfront.jpg

Now he is a Deamon Prince, better cause he is like every other one.

http://forum.emperorschildren.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10002/dp2.jpg

 

 

My point agrees with those made earlier. Stop concentrating on what you can't do any more and concentrate on what you can.

 

~David the Despoiler

The problem isn't what I can't do, it is that it isn't worth doing.

You can't be different, unless you define different as "count as". The options to be chaotic are gone, now you are "random". The options to be different, to have an army with flavor are gone. Now, your troops and my troops vary by size of the unit and Heavy weapon in the unit. Maybe the Icon you start the game with!

 

So what can I do? Start from scratch, remove all my weapons, and play "random marines". That sure as heck, to the original authors point doesn't make them scary! It makes them spikey marines with no focus!

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Very well said refuse.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Very well said, Refuse. I miss the old days with my Night Lords, where everyone possible had Daemonic Visage, representing our terror tactics, and Night Vision, due to our weird eyes. We were restricted use of most Chaos-y stuff as a penalty, but we Night Lords didn't need the power of the Chaos Gods to destroy the lackeys of the Corpse-God!

 

Now... now I can't be bothered using the Chaos codex, as if I don't use Chaos stuff, I'm left with a Loyalist list with minuscule wargear differences, and less options overall. Sure, I can use Icons to "counts-as" Veteran Skills, but how do I explain that because this guy who carries a pole for some unknown reason died, the rest of the squad forgot how to assault as well as before?

Before, I had my Visage to differentiate me from Loyalists, as well as other Veteran skills, and that was great. Now, I use the Loyalist codex, to actually give me a choice other than what different weapons to give.

[Draeden]

I might be what was referenced as the new generation. Only started playing back in Feb/March-ish. I've played with the current codex many times and I can't help but feel that there is something incredibly wrong with Chaos. At the core I field up Tzeentch heavy armies, at best I can hope for I find is a tie game. And I look at the codex, and I look at the fluff.

 

Tzeentch, a god of sorcory, who loves to bestow mutations apon his followers.

 

And what do I have in the codex to represent this? Possessed? Not appealing. Too much random chance, and not very.. well as I said appealing. There's also Thousand Sons for troops. Sure, slow and purposeful is nice for the bonus of relentless it gives. And the Aspiring Sorcerer is nice as well. But the Sorcerer at minimum always costs 70pts. I once went over the cost, trying to break down the Aspiring Sorcerer into something like Mark of Tzeentch + Thousand Son Troop + Spell, but that... doesn't feel right to me.

 

Facing off against Space Marines with their multitude of options and supplement codexes. The Basic IG regiment where they're permitted to field up to 20 roughly vehicles in a maxed out FoC. We're meant to be the legions that will see the False Emperor and his Empire burn. We're meant to be the remnants of a Grand Age of Humanity that refused the idiocy of a corpse god and his decisions to spurn his own Sons and the legions they commanded simply because their view differed ever so slightly or their usefulness had ended. And what do we have to show for it?

 

Less options and more random chance than our Loyalist brothers? Even though our legions weren't the ones who spurned away our greatest assests from the Golden Age of Mankind? We have a Dark Mechanicum but the only thing that they've ever really produced on their own is the Defiler? Loyalists get to use advance technology (Drop Pods and that one Dark Angel guy with the jetbike) and we only get Tred Tanks?

 

This might seem more like a rant with no real purpose, but I have to strongly agree with many of the people here, something seems very wrong with Chaos, and it just isn't that one Plague Marines odour I can smell...

[the jeske]

well chaos armies are no longer different armies , they are different ways to paint your army and thats all . Imagine codex sm without the special characters that let you build different lists and you will get that what chaos is not .

 

Do people still remember how when we had the old dex we had talk about different builds, legions or ideas for fluff[and not top tier] lists for all gods ? right now the slanesh/tzeench part of the forum seems to be dead . But hey now everyone can play with more then 3 oblits . that has to be good.

 

 

Hi refuse nice to see you post again.

 

 

And the best part is that the list is no longer limited to one power.

i dont think anyone commented that . as you avatar looks BL. you do know that in the 3.5 dex we had BL . and you could do with them just that [in fact one of the two top tier armies was BL khorn ] . So guys like IW and BL players didnt lose nothing [and lets face it those were power armies] , while undivided legions lost all flavor and are turned in to a carbon copy of BL[because hey who doesnt want to play the 2zerker2 pms 4 oblits 2xtermicid 2xlash prince list] and lists like NM became unplayable because of how WYSIWYG works ? how does that make the codex better or more fun.

[David the Despoiler]

I bow my head to you all, as my arguments have all been met and beaten beyond adequately.

 

My rant was more borne of ignorance of the previous codex rather then experience with new one, at least now I realize so.

 

I'll do my homework first before jumping into such an in-depth thread.

[Dammeron]

Chaos is currently languishing in pretty much the same state that it was following the advent of third edition 40K; lots of eager and dedicated fans with a great deal of emotional investment in their army of choice, but a codex that was evidently rushed out half baked (at best) in order to accomodate a new edition (in this case, fifth) of the game. As a result, a great deal of the dark majesty, the threat; the essential ethos, if you will, of Chaos has been stripped away, leaving us with an army list that feels...flaccid and uninspiring.

 

Personally, I don't have a great deal of time for the synthetic and largely knee-jerk erring towards "game balance" that I hear trotted out so much these days. I don't play as Tyranids, but when I face them, I want to be afraid. I want to feel like I am under siege from a vast and near unstoppable alien power that is going to take alot of thought on my part to defeat. I don't care if the army list in question is capable of "more powerful" or more effective builds than mine (as a Chaos player) IF it strikes the right "chord." By the same token, I think that there should be a certain amount of dread evoked when people find themselves facing off against a Chaos horde of any stripe; these are, after all, ancient warriors who serve masters that will devour one's soul in defeat. They should be FRIGHTENING, and tactically limited owing to a dearth of numbers. This has always defined Chaos armies traditionally speaking; small but elite beyond compare. This is the essential spirit that has been lost in the current army list, which is all about chucking as many models as possible into the mix (I imagine the imperative was to simply sell more models, which is ironic as I know that a great many players have shelved their Chaos forces as a result of this codex, myself amongst them).

 

Yes, there has to be a certain degree of "balance" to make the game fun and competitive, but this does NOT mean that every army has to be basically the same, which is what we are fast, fast sliding towards. Also, this element must be critically considered next to what others actually make the game so attractive in the first place, and it seems that the CHARACTER and background of individual armies is an incredibly significant one, but also one that is currently being side lined for a more mechanical, perfunctory approach.

 

An alternative to this pervasive homogenity would be to look to the background of each army and determine what characteristic strengths and weaknesses can be realistically implemented in game terms and used to define how each army functions, e.g. the Eldar are frighteningly fast and efficient, their firepower unmatched, but must work cohesively as a force rather than being committed piece-meal in order to succeed, whereas the orks are a disorganised and rambunctious horde that rely on numbers and pure brutality to carry the day. Some army lists manage this quite well; both the ork and Eldar codicies are prime examples of how the "fifth ed" stream-lined format can be implemented without paring away great wodges of character in the process.

 

As to whether or not Chaos is "scary" enough at present, in purely mechanical terms the army list can be used to put together some truly vile lists, arguably some of the most effective in the game full stop. But they are also extremely flavourless and dull to play with (since every tournament player and their dog uses them). In terms of ethos and character representation, no; Eldar armies are currently far "scarier" in that regard than chaos (they have a better defined and more capable "Greater Daemon" than we do, for starters).

[chillin]

I don't with to continue this down the "this isn't the best dex road (but I will anyway :cry: ).

But I don't understand the "isn't it better that our dex was "simplified" arguement". What was so complacated about the old dex that it so terriblly confused some people ?? Was it opening the cover ? Turning all those pages ? Having to read all that fluff ? Were they unable to grasp the different rules for different legions ? Was it adding up points for stuff from the armoury that so vexed them ? Math is hard...

What was it that so befuddled them that it was worth giving up legion rules, personalized characters, unique armies, god specific daemons, character, real options, an armory, etc ??

[refuse]

I bow my head to you all, as my arguments have all been met and beaten beyond adequately.

 

My rant was more borne of ignorance of the previous codex rather then experience with new one, at least now I realize so.

 

I'll do my homework first before jumping into such an in-depth thread.

Don't worry.

You have found a topic that many hard core Chaos players have fought over since the first 3rd edition codex, and again with the latest 4th edition codex.

The issue is, Chaos is unique, individual. Heck I would hazard there are probably just as many DIY chaos players as marines (though you would know it) on this board. And more Forums and sites dedicated to a specific God then dedicated to a specific marine army.

 

http://emperorchildren.net

http://deathguard.com

(I can't remember the Khorne one).

 

But Chaos is individual, and by that I mean each individual sees chaos differently, individually.

 

What makes chaos? It is your personal road to hell, to put it in perspective. Why do you follow Slaanesh, and I will bet the reason I do is different. It is where you and I can play the same army but be absolutely different. Close Combat Slaanesh vs Mid Range fire power Slaanesh vs Elite "ancient warrior" slaanesh. Where as the Imperial forces are ordered. Their armies are facets, such as the HTH assault of Blood Angels. You don't imagine blood angels as stand back long range shooters, but neither do you of Khorne. Though there is fluff that says (Slaves to Darkness) that Khorne doesn't care how you kill, so you may get on the path to Khorne killing at range, but killing is what matters!

 

 

Put another way the road for Chaos is wide. Slaanesh armies could fight over ideological differences (or the chance to prove to slaanesh they are more worthy). Tzeentch armies could be Ruberic, or potentially pure sorcerer with daemons.

 

Now, the inherent part of chaos, the "Path" you follow was taken away. Chaos is "Chaos", not "My chaos", look at my sig.

 

No longer can I field the debased portions of Slaanesh as a whole. No longer can I field the elite 29th who have fought since the heresy. No longer can I fight with the desirable daemons of Slaanesh. Heck and Slaanesh had it good for several versions, I can only think what the 1k Sons feel. Probably hollow inside. :)

 

But Chaos is to many, the same thing DIY is to others. Our Chaos, my chaos.

 

To give an example I will use the Emperor's Children:

http://emperorschildren.net/wiki/index.php...Lord_Commanders

The Lord Commanders of the Emperor's children. Armies and armies upon which Slaanesh is praised. With an organization and hierachy fan developed.

http://emperorschildren.net/wiki/index.php...le=Organization

 

And in particular the 29th Great Company of the Emperor's Children

http://emperorschildren.net/wiki/index.php...reat_Company:29

Lead by the Lord Commander

http://emperorschildren.net/wiki/index.php...mmanders:Bowman

And who have a large "cult" detachment of the Imperial Army (pre-heresy) composed of Beastmen (an homage to Slaves to Darkness)

http://emperorschildren.net/wiki/index.php?title=4th_Cohort

 

And their Yang to the Emperor's Children Ying, the loyalist branch

http://emperorschildren.net/wiki/index.php...or%27s_Children

Following the fluff of some of the Marines from the chapters that stayed loyal becoming the first inquisitors, and some of the armies of the legions not making it to the Primarch side to be killed.

 

To me the eternal struggle, the personality and breath of the army was important. My Loyalist army is driven to redemption (though like the Dark Angels, only the Highest ranking know the secret), my Chaos army is driven to maintain the fine line between service and corruption. The majority of the army avoids mutations and chaos infuence with 2 major exceptions (sorcerer and Daemon Prince) and their armies are focused around daemons.

 

To follow the Daemonic I have an army of Daemons they can summon:

http://forum.emperorschildren.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10002/daemonarmy~0.jpg

From every era of the game, the deamons come to serve slaanesh. Can you imagine my horror, when every model you see in that picture became a "generic daemon"

 

Even my necromunda army (redemptionists) have fallen to Slaanesh

http://forum.emperorschildren.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10002/CarnalCabal1.jpg

 

I have short stories about most of my main characters.

My Land Raider:

http://forum.emperorschildren.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10002/Pb120023.jpg

Indomitable

Where my Lord goes to great lengths to recover his old friend.

 

Helping free the Daemon Prince

Recovering an Old Friend

 

 

Two of my commanders in my armies (each representing one of the seven deadly sins)

The second sin

 

The Third Sin

 

 

Amazing stories by Fet (a follower of Khorne, but one of the best Slaanesh stories ever!)

As once you could be

 

 

 

 

But in all, Slaanesh is personal, and to me "No harm is done to the willing"

http://forum.emperorschildren.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10002/volenti2.jpg

 

So it is hard to tell a person who played Chaos since before Slaves to Darkness, that all is good. So much for me is in the fluff, and the ability to make MY army. Win or loose, the value for me is having something that reflects my mood, and my gaming style today. And I have enough models to do that, and when I could, I constantly expanded my army.

 

Since the 4th edition codex. I have spent $0 on Chaos, and now I spend $0 on Games Workshop.

[Night Stalker]

And the best part is that the list is no longer limited to one power. It can be, if you so choose it. There's nothing stopping you from making a SUCCESFUL 1ksons list (maybe the money, but that's it) that can hold objectives and take the opponent's.

 

The best part was there in 3.5 also. If you dont belive, check that codex.

 

Also, 1ksons list is not successful in competetive enviroment. If you disagree - visit europe and win some major tournament with it.

 

I dont want to discuss rest of your post. Too many errors in too little space. With people like you i can only agree to disagree anyway, so i'll stop it in civil manner.

 

Best.

[David the Despoiler]

And the best part is that the list is no longer limited to one power. It can be, if you so choose it. There's nothing stopping you from making a SUCCESFUL 1ksons list (maybe the money, but that's it) that can hold objectives and take the opponent's.

 

The best part was there in 3.5 also. If you dont belive, check that codex.

 

Also, 1ksons list is not successful in competetive enviroment. If you disagree - visit europe and win some major tournament with it.

 

I dont want to discuss rest of your post. Too many errors in too little space. With people like you i can only agree to disagree anyway, so i'll stop it in civil manner.

 

Best.

That post was really unnecessary and rude. I already dropped my arguments and accepted that they were invalid. And just because a list hasn't won yet, doesn't mean it can't.

 

This thread, though, is not about the 1ksons, but rather Chaos as a whole.

 

And refuse, I have to say I'm starting to wish that I'd been around during 3.5 ed. It sounds like your armies truly were characterful and your own.

 

Maybe one day they'll reinstate the old format of the Codex. One can only hope.

[Lord_Caerolion]

David, I will agree with you in one sense that the new Codex makes the Cult Legions much more 3D than before. Slaanesh Cult armies can now have Marines which take senses other than sound to extremes. Nurgle can have diseases other than "fat-and-slow-itis". Khorne can have killers obsessed with things other than hacky-slashy stuff. Tzeentch can have things other than Rubrics (finally).

So the new Codex allows armies to have a much greater variety of troops, but thats mostly not what people want. They even said in their 3.5 designer notes, most Chaos players play a single Legion/Cult. Most don't play warbands made of a mish-mash of different Legions/Renegades, which is what this codex encourages. The current codex exhanged depth of character for variety, lots and lots of barely-there character instead of lots and lots of restricted.

 

You see, Chaos is arrogant. Chaos is self-aggrandising. Chaos is personal. A Chaos Lord isn't going to accept that those Marines over there are the equal of his men. He has the God/s on his side! What Khorne Lord would admit that his men need the help of pathetic, weakling Nurgle-worshippers? How could he even contemplate joining with those degenerate aesthetes of Slaanesh? He has the favour of Khorne! His men will cut down those that oppose them, and give their skulls to Khorne!

 

Of course, now this Khorne Lord will apparently sit down, and ration out how many prisoners each Cult gets to sacrifice to their God. He'll happily fight alongside the loathed and hated Slaanesh-worshippers. His Chosen, veterans of millenia of warfare, have merely learned how to hide, a cowards method of fighting! On the other hand, a Loyalist Veteran, who has fought for mere centuries, if that, has learned specialised skills for his battlefield role. Cult Terminators, in GWs own words the most dedicated worshippers of the Gods in a warband, are less devout than a guy in power armour, so once that stick hits the ground, the berzerker-rage lifts, and the Terminators become rational again, despite knowing that Khorne doesn't care about failure, only that the blood flows. The Khorne Lord himself, despite being on the path to Daemon-hood, isn't as blessed by Khorne as his minions, who are but petty fools compared to him! And once he becomes a Daemon Prince, despite being one of the most varied classifications of beings known, will become identical to the next Khorne Daemon Prince, no matter what of the infinite Gifts Khorne has chosen to grant each of them. Now the semi-Bloodthirster-creature is exactly the same as the giant Marine with bladed tentacles coming out of his chest. Oh, except on can fly, and the other can't.

 

I long for the days of Realms of Chaos, where it was virtually impossible to have two identical Daemon Princes, due to several rolls on d1000 tables to find what Gifts and Rewards the God had chosen to grant, as well as what Attributes and mutations he had developed due to staying too long in the Eye. That was Chaos. Extreme power balanced by extreme, extreme risk. Every step your Lord took closer to Daemonhood was a step closer to Spawndom. It was merely a decision of fate over which he was to find first. His next Gift could be utterly worthless, or could make him a terrifying combatant. He could become as mindless as an animal, or could gain acid instead of blood. The Daemons his God blessed him with could find his devotion lacking, and add his skull to Khorne's throne, the only act he is deemed fit for.

Chaos, back when it was power at the risk of damnation. You could become a God, or you could become the stepping stone of another on their own road to ascendance.

[refuse]

Nicely said.

 

Except this part:

How could he even contemplate joining with those degenerate aesthetes of Slaanesh?

Hurt, deeply hurt.

We have a true over developed sense of site, sound and taste. We don't protest to have sensitivity to art or beauty! We are gifted to see, feel and taste the very vibrant colors of the world.

 

:)

[Chaos Lord Shamrockius]

And refuse, I have to say I'm starting to wish that I'd been around during 3.5 ed. It sounds like your armies truly were characterful and your own.

 

Maybe one day they'll reinstate the old format of the Codex. One can only hope.

 

 

Ah David... it really was a thing of beauty.

 

A friend popped round mine at the weekend and due to this post, I'd been reading through 3.5 and it was on my coffee table. He likened his sensation of flicking through it to the feeling they discussed on Trainspotting at the sight of watching Archie Gemmill scoring against Holland (non-europeans, google it, it must be out there on YouTube - seriously, genius...).

 

It seriously was good. A smidge complex, adding extra skills etc in multiples and some lists looked like some sort of math to find out what an imaginary number actually equalled. But it was soooooo good. You felt like you were building something personal, something unique, something that was YOURS. Now, i think one of the other respondants have said that they have absolutely no interest in the new codex and no interest in buying anything new. And to be honest, I don't blame him.

[the jeske]

So the new Codex allows armies to have a much greater variety of troops, but thats mostly not what people want

i dont find csm with different icons [2 of which dont make sense as PMs are better then ioN csm and IoT never made sense at all even when people tried to boost bikes with +2 inv back in 4th ed] . all those untis play the same way it doesnt matter , if you give them IoS or IoK . + icon guy dies and no one picks it up , thats one of those "most stupid rules ever" made by GW. I get the lack of tranings to use specials or hvy , I get not using an officer weapon [gene print activation etc] , but a holy icon of a god you follow? I wonder what does guys do post battle and how they explain its lack in the unit .

[incinerator950]

So the new Codex allows armies to have a much greater variety of troops, but thats mostly not what people want

i dont find csm with different icons [2 of which dont make sense as PMs are better then ioN csm and IoT never made sense at all even when people tried to boost bikes with +2 inv back in 4th ed] . all those untis play the same way it doesnt matter , if you give them IoS or IoK . + icon guy dies and no one picks it up , thats one of those "most stupid rules ever" made by GW. I get the lack of tranings to use specials or hvy , I get not using an officer weapon [gene print activation etc] , but a holy icon of a god you follow? I wonder what does guys do post battle and how they explain its lack in the unit .

 

They sit around arguing what points cost for basic equipment they have to share.

 

I got 3.5 a few months before 4.0 came out. Now when I look back, I could've had something that felt special to my insanity, but now every time I make an army list, all I feel is a lump sore that I'm taking a unit that has a 50% chance of being a mock up of an hq when everyone takes a DP instead, and that I'm just using an army list thats 90% similar to about 45%+ of Nurgle players. I feel like I can't make my fluff down right, maby it's because I have terrible writer's block and I can't maintain a thought process for more than 5 minutes properly without switching to someone else, but god damn.

 

In all honesty had I not started my arms buildup I probably would've stopped at the codex and maby a few squads and went on to something that didn't ;) you over in a rapid change of pace, like Battle Tech.

[Important]

Oh I remember the good old times. When I had 3000p worth of Word Bearers, 2000p Death guards and 1500p world eaters. I had background for all of them every individual squad and champion in them. I also had a story for how they worked together in invading planets in the name of thier god or personal gains. (Never used them in the same battle since that wasn't allowed ofcourse but I was happy with it.)

 

When the codex we use now came I dropped my whole army. I sold everything and went back to my blood angels army and then they got an crappy WD update. Now I have picked up my former chaos army project. Slowly rebuilding them but it's not the same but atleast I have my insane memories of 'awesomeness'.

 

But I like the current codex in some ways. It's really easy and fast to do a army list but also a major downside for me. :P

But I can field the different kind of god troops can be good but yes I miss the old codex.

 

And my personal opinion is when it's time for chaos to get thier update again I think it's more then fair to get back alot from the old one. Since the current SM one got alot of new stuff and is so much more of everything.

[incinerator950]

indeed

 

well, atleast I got the army list out faster than I would have in the last codex :/

[David the Despoiler]

Well, my local GW cleaned out their old Codices and my friend (who works there) picked up the 3.5 ed book. He's let me read it and I have to say, that I was thoroughly impressed. The only thing that he brought to my attention was this...

 

Plague Marines, for 3 extra points, now have FNP and Defensive grenades (despite I3).

 

The Blast Master is AP3, the Doom Siren is S5 AP3 in the current ed.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Well, my local GW cleaned out their old Codices and my friend (who works there) picked up the 3.5 ed book. He's let me read it and I have to say, that I was thoroughly impressed. The only thing that he brought to my attention was this...

 

Plague Marines, for 3 extra points, now have FNP and Defensive grenades (despite I3).

 

The Blast Master is AP3, the Doom Siren is S5 AP3 in the current ed.

 

Aye, but blight grenades arn't as good, and you could take multiple doom sirens in one squad then.

[Lord_Caerolion]

And Noise Havoc squads, to get 4 Blastmasters per squad.

 

 

Hurt, deeply hurt.

We have a true over developed sense of site, sound and taste. We don't protest to have sensitivity to art or beauty! We are gifted to see, feel and taste the very vibrant colors of the world.

 

While very true, those are all things that any Khorne worshipper would be very unlikely to appreciate, what with being crazed, frenzied psychopathic axe-murderers and all.

[incinerator950]

And thats why Noise Marines and berserkers don't get along, which is why technically you don't find them in the same freggin army.

 

On the topic, a variety of troops choices isn't the best thing at all.

[Smurfalypse]

And the best part is that the list is no longer limited to one power. It can be, if you so choose it. There's nothing stopping you from making a SUCCESFUL 1ksons list (maybe the money, but that's it) that can hold objectives and take the opponent's.

 

The best part was there in 3.5 also. If you dont belive, check that codex.

 

Also, 1ksons list is not successful in competetive enviroment. If you disagree - visit europe and win some major tournament with it.

 

I dont want to discuss rest of your post. Too many errors in too little space. With people like you i can only agree to disagree anyway, so i'll stop it in civil manner.

 

Best.

That post was really unnecessary and rude. I already dropped my arguments and accepted that they were invalid. And just because a list hasn't won yet, doesn't mean it can't.

 

This thread, though, is not about the 1ksons, but rather Chaos as a whole.

 

And refuse, I have to say I'm starting to wish that I'd been around during 3.5 ed. It sounds like your armies truly were characterful and your own.

 

Maybe one day they'll reinstate the old format of the Codex. One can only hope.

 

I would have to agree...Was a bit rude.