Smurfalypse Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 I don't with to continue this down the "this isn't the best dex road (but I will anyway :D ).But I don't understand the "isn't it better that our dex was "simplified" arguement". What was so complacated about the old dex that it so terriblly confused some people ?? Was it opening the cover ? Turning all those pages ? Having to read all that fluff ? Were they unable to grasp the different rules for different legions ? Was it adding up points for stuff from the armoury that so vexed them ? Math is hard... What was it that so befuddled them that it was worth giving up legion rules, personalized characters, unique armies, god specific daemons, character, real options, an armory, etc ?? lol i love you chillen. We all know the issues with our current dex and the short comings in fluff/fun involved with everything, BUT, do you know what really grinds my gears?!? The options. I seriously am missing just a few options for my daemon prince, chaos lords, daemons (both greater and generic). Dont get me wrong on the daemons, i actually like the generics, i just wish there were more options to tinker with. Being a purist Word Bearer, the fact they added an undivded greater was sweet gin music. However he gets boring very fast with no options (not even psychic power options). The feeling of the cult units is very bland. Nothing special or "scarey" to them at all. Just a model with a few generic rules added in. Though i have to admit im a HUGE fan of the current bast CSM's. A good amount of options and things to try out, so im going to give credit where credit is due. Fast attack choices are almost unusable. Bikers are excessively overpriced and bland. Raptors are ok but still overpriced with few options or feel. Spawn are fun and they give orks fits for some reason, but are WAY overpriced, very boring, and bland otherwise. The elite choices are all overshadowed by terminators. Chosen are carbon copies of base CSMs with infiltrate. Possessed are well...possessed (i use them them extensively but its more a joke than anything). The dreadnaught is a bad joke. Nothing gives the terms a run for their money in use/fun/options therefor all you see is terms from this section. Heavy support has a few options. Oblits are great but again overshadow everything else in this area so you see them almost everytime you play against chaos. Havoks = overcost and bland. The vehicles are exactly the same as the marine counterpart, except usually more expensive point wise and with less options. The HQ section is just atrocious. I havnt seen a codex where the leader of the army has literally three choices, its literally a crime. The people who write this stuff seriously should be held responsible for their work. You do awful work you get informed of how awful you are (you know we are using the new cover for thos TPS reports right?) and if you keep doing it you get kicked to the curb just like the rest of the business world. Some things are for some people and others are not. There are glaring similarities to the 3.0 and this codex. The random possessed abilities, the shooting your own unit dreadnaught, the generic system of units and gear. These all come from one person who had his hand in both codex's. The one area i have to admit im glad they dumped was the armory. Every new dex is ditching them and moving on to the set options in each section for units. I wasnt to upset to see this go so its a minor thing in my view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dràyhèn Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 The armoury was the soul of the last 'dex, along the Legion rules. That was why I greatly liked the last one, everything could be customized the way you wanted, those little options gave a feeling that it was your own, personal Chaos army. God how I miss my tooled-up Daemon Prince, or the mutations of my Asps, or the possessions/mutations in vehicles. So little things added so much flavour. Along the Legion rules that was the biggest loss, at least in my opinion. ps. Night Stalker: Have checked that out and liked it, that's the other way 'round it :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Night Stalker Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 The armoury was the soul of the last 'dex, along the Legion rules. That was why I greatly liked the last one, everything could be customized the way you wanted, those little options gave a feeling that it was your own, personal Chaos army.God how I miss my tooled-up Daemon Prince, or the mutations of my Asps, or the possessions/mutations in vehicles. So little things added so much flavour. Along the Legion rules that was the biggest loss, at least in my opinion. Those are possible even without armoury. Check even my sig how it could be done without it. Sadly something like this was not done like this in current codex. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicorex Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 What gets me the most is that certin armys were just totaly culled from the Chaos Dex. Try to build a Iron Warriors army these days. Plus my beloved Wordbearers cant even be fielded any more since I cant make my Dark Apostle. No this new Dex just isnt as scary or as flavorful as it used to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dràyhèn Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 To answer the topic: No. I can't help but to feel we're now just spikey renegades, flatly put. That feeling really comes to the fore when fielding Daemon prince, I can't see him being the most terrifying and evil creature ever seen, just a big cartoony monster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 I knew this kind of post would rile up the Chaos players of old. It always does. 'Scary' and Chaos aren't words I tend to mix. I think of 'terror' as more appropriate. I always say, you can't have -really- GOOD heroes unless you have terrifying villains. What is Luke without Vader? Just a spoiled farm boy hanging out with an old man in a robe. The way we used to play Chaos has been re-lived a few times in this thread. I can still say that no one I know of who played Chaos years ago (I mean 8-9 years ago) actually like the current codex. Personally, I deeply miss Pete Haines involvement. I sense his passing from GW was a direct hit on Chaos. The lack of cool new models almost certainly meant a lame codex. We needed a 'Valkyrie' of our own... or two. I think this is the way GW works now. New models must sell... the less new models in a line up, the cruddier the rules. I'll tell you though I have started to warm to Renegades style, but that is the secret, the codex is GOOD as a renegade list, but to pay homage to your favorite legion... well it simply doesn't exist anymore. The most picky general could grind out whatever flavour of chaos he wanted to in those days. Now the idiocy of marks, and limited options basically stick you in a cardboard box. Outside of 'rules' issues, my biggest disappointment is I feel there is a massive well of untapped 'fun' and strength in that codex... in fact the biggest selling Black Library series is BASED on it! (Horus Series). It'll come back though. I know it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
incinerator950 Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 I'm new, basing my Army as a Renegade Nurgle warband, and quite frankly I find 3.5 more appealing than 4.0 :/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 and your not the only one. I mean lets just look at codex sm . kantor is a viable choice , khan is too . vulkan is the man of the dex . a normal cpt specially on bike is playable [even if khan is a better option] . shriek aint great[or rather he is , but there are no way of doing a top tier list for him] , but playable . motf on bike with beamer ? playable , not great but playable . a few options to represent different sm . chaos has . lash dp , nurgle dp ...nothing for a very long time, then nurgle lords for LR rush builds and thats it . nothing else is worth playing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrDoom Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 I have mixed feelings about the new codex. Its generally been well received in my area by new players, and there are more Chaos players around now then there were a few years ago. But... I've been playing Chaos for 15 years, and only Chaos (I got a second army when GW released Chaos Daemons, all I had to buy was the Codex and I was done)and I miss the old codex. I play Black Legion so I got screwed less then alot of players, but there are many, many changes I would love to see made in the next codex. Especially spawn. I mean, what happened? My big problem with the new codex is that there are the good choices, then the rest of them. I don't do alot of tournament play but its still annoying... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Nihm Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 What irks me the most is the very same thing which has been touched upon here by the Jeske and others, lack of variation. Granted, the old 'dex was a smattering of different builds, with several variant lists for each legion - endless possibilities, but each unit type also had a role and could be combined in a hundred ways. Customization. 90% of all the Chaos armies I come across these days are cookie cutter builds and I think it's because we have next to no alternatives in terms of efficient units. For example, I hardly ever see the 'fun' (now pretty much useless) units like Spawn, Havocs, Bikes, Dreadnoughts and Possessed anymore. I can understand why the game designers decided to do away with 'sub-lists' in order to streamline, but did they have to kill all forms of variety as well? I'm not asking for a super powered Codex from hell, all I ask is for reasons to take the units available to me. We have the random rules for Possessed with several of them being useless, uncontrollable units? fast, but slow units with no saves? overpriced lesser daemons with no variety? Greater daemons that are slow, are overcosted (the champ dies + compare stats with the Avatar), the silly Icon system, the low number of HQ choices (and their lack of options). The list goes on. No thank you, those are not good enough reasons for me to take them. :( Just look at the SM dex, it's not perfect in terms of choices compared to the old one but, it still has variety in spades... [rant] When I meet a SM player and ask him which type of army he plays, the answer is usually: Ultramarines, White Scars etc. and his list (most often) reflects this. With a truckload of options that makes it a guessing game as to what he's fielding - even SC's aren't a given. Whenever I ask a Chaos player which type of army he plays the answer is usually, Chaos, with a (insert legion name here) paint scheme and I already know 75% of what's in his list. [/rant] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smurfalypse Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 What irks me the most is the very same thing which has been touched upon here by the Jeske and others, lack of variation. Granted, the old 'dex was a smattering of different builds, with several variant lists for each legion - endless possibilities, but each unit type also had a role and could be combined in a hundred ways. Customization. 90% of all the Chaos armies I come across these days are cookie cutter builds and I think it's because we have next to no alternatives in terms of efficient units. For example, I hardly ever see the 'fun' (now pretty much useless) units like Spawn, Havocs, Bikes, Dreadnoughts and Possessed anymore. I can understand why the game designers decided to do away with 'sub-lists' in order to streamline, but did they have to kill all forms of variety as well? I'm not asking for a super powered Codex from hell, all I ask is for reasons to take the units available to me. We have the random rules for Possessed with several of them being useless, uncontrollable units? fast, but slow units with no saves? overpriced lesser daemons with no variety? Greater daemons that are slow, are overcosted (the champ dies + compare stats with the Avatar), the silly Icon system, the low number of HQ choices (and their lack of options). The list goes on. No thank you, those are not good enough reasons for me to take them. :( Just look at the SM dex, it's not perfect in terms of choices compared to the old one but, it still has variety in spades... [rant] When I meet a SM player and ask him which type of army he plays, the answer is usually: Ultramarines, White Scars etc. and his list (most often) reflects this. With a truckload of options that makes it a guessing game as to what he's fielding - even SC's aren't a given. Whenever I ask a Chaos player which type of army he plays the answer is usually, Chaos, with a (insert legion name here) paint scheme and I already know 75% of what's in his list. [/rant] HEY! I run possessed about every game i play :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Night Stalker Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 HEY! I run possessed about every game i play :P Hey! I run lord with daemon weapon every game i play ! I even used spawns ! (It does not mean they dont sucks - they sucks anyway) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
incinerator950 Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 HEY! I run possessed about every game i play :P Nurgle, I hope you win every game, just to shove a rock in people's faces I'm using a sorcerer with wings lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smurfalypse Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 HEY! I run possessed about every game i play :P Hey! I run lord with daemon weapon every game i play ! I even used spawns ! (It does not mean they dont sucks - they sucks anyway) Spawn do really well vs orks for some reason...I have used them a handful of times (mostly without success). Kudos on the lord with a daemon weapons, takes brass buttons to run that now-adays. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 We all know what the easy fix for this is right? Codex: Legions. Run it very similar to the Liber Chaotica fluffbook. 4 sections for each of the Cult Legions and a 5th section for Undivided. Toss in some special characters that either affect the armies like SM's do or are super badass in their own right. Cult versions of some of the other units (Khornish Terminators, Noise Marine Havocks etc) For the Undivided armies, emphasis on their leaders (Dark Apostles, Warsmiths etc) and possible point reductions or improved gear for "trademark" units (Raptors for Night Lords, Possessed for Black Legion etc). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Tyrak Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 Toss in some special characters that either affect the armies like SM's do or are super badass in their own right What's wrong with just tying it to a generic Lord who chooses his Legion allegiance? That way you still get to customise your HQ if you want to play a certain army, special characters remain special because you no longer have to field them to play a certain army, and you can save the really nasty special abilities for the special characters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Night Stalker Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 Toss in some special characters that either affect the armies like SM's do or are super badass in their own right What's wrong with just tying it to a generic Lord who chooses his Legion allegiance? That way you still get to customise your HQ if you want to play a certain army, special characters remain special because you no longer have to field them to play a certain army, and you can save the really nasty special abilities for the special characters. Beside the fact that he is subpar option, very unstable, and require luck AND skill to use (and even then he is just mediocre and instankillable) - nothing ... But i also dont want 'must have' special characters' and i'd rather want to see less point efficient special characters than underpriced ones like in codex: space marines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 But i also dont want 'must have' special characters' and i'd rather want to see less point efficient special characters than underpriced ones like in codex: space marines. That extends to the codex as a whole. We want a multitude of viable army/unit choices. Not 1-2 cookie cutter lists that get spammed. As for the special characters (and HQs in general). I'm 100% fine with having HQ units that do not grant your army some bonus (like the majority of the SM ones do) if they balance that out elsewhere. Maybe they're more killy as individuals. Maybe they are cheaper. Maybe you have more options. Personally I'd like to see the Lieutenant added back in as a cheap alternative (basically a glorified Aspiring Champion) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
incinerator950 Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 I'd like to see them use a Warsmith or Dark Apostle as a special character Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SquirrelKing Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 I'd like to see them use a Warsmith or Dark Apostle as a special character Well, as long as we're dreaming, I'd like a pony. :D *Edit* You know, I'd want Cypher back, with the C'tan phase knife. There, I said it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
incinerator950 Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 I forgot to mention that, and bring back DOOM RIDER Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dammeron Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 I forgot to mention that, and bring back DOOM RIDER He came, now he's gone :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SquirrelKing Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 I forgot to mention that, and bring back DOOM RIDER He came, now he's gone ;) I think the actual line is: "He comes, he goes." :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David the Despoiler Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 Yes, but his version of it is a lot more final. In other words, he ain't coming back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 While I don't think GW would ever dare admit it publicly, I would have to believe behind closed doors some would secretly admit that current day Chaos is a smoldering dung pile. When we have these monthly conversations, which always end the same, the one thing that I'm always left with is two fold: 1 is acceptance. We have a bland, flavourless, and boring codex. It is fact. 2 is.... when will it change? That's my real worry. Every rumour I've ever heard involves every other army except Chaos. That's my real concern. We probably won't see any real releases for a loooong time. This is why I'm putting away my World Eaters, and Iron Warriors and just accepting the 'space pirate' themed Red Corsairs. I don't see a change to this for years to come. When would they slot us in? Between Necrons and Dark Eldar? Not likely. Think of what has to happen to do the job PROPERLY next time... New sculpts of old characters. Re-vamping of Legion type rules and their 'iconic' characters. Busted rules for lethargic units have to be redone. I believe Dreadnaughts remained useless because they didn't get a new sculpt so let's get that taken care of too. (and other borked units as well... daemons, G.D.s etc.) Let's be honest, the new codex would have to come with new plastics, or else they won't make enough money from the venture to make it worth while. We would need more Legion specific plastics (kind of like IA box sets version II). That's a ton of work. Where could you see this being done? GW rumour mills hint that Necrons, Wolves, Templars, Dark Eldar are getting done first. I would guess Eldar, and Tau are probably also further up the food chain. We know G.W. have stated many times they won't do 'codex fixes' anymore. So we can kiss that option goodbye. Believe it or not, I'm not trying to be pessimistic, just realistic. I think GW have bigger fish to fry for the next 2 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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