Is Chaos scary enough?

[Night Stalker]

Point is, to do Chaos justice, codex writter have to be very skilled, and should have serious gaming experience.

 

Even Pete H. failed, and he was as far as i remember good player. But his version was better.

[the jeske]

h man didnt fail . the dex was golden , they just shouldnt have let him write the IW rules . Even if they did cut them a bit in the end they were over the top . the story goes that in the orginal test version of their rules they , not only had 4 hvy support and extra oblits [what they in the end got] , but special siege terminators and no limits on vindis/basilisks.

Everyone knew h man is going to over do them , because he always were an IW fanatic .

still I will never understand why [well maybe aside for the fact that GW made almost everyone leave the company] they let Thorpe codexs . As a writer he was ok [not my style , but some people liked his stories] , but each dex he did was a disaster.

[Night Stalker]

h man didnt fail . the dex was golden , they just shouldnt have let him write the IW rules . Even if they did cut them a bit in the end they were over the top . the story goes that in the orginal test version of their rules they , not only had 4 hvy support and extra oblits [what they in the end got] , but special siege terminators and no limits on vindis/basilisks.

Everyone knew h man is going to over do them , because he always were an IW fanatic .

still I will never understand why [well maybe aside for the fact that GW made almost everyone leave the company] they let Thorpe codexs . As a writer he was ok [not my style , but some people liked his stories] , but each dex he did was a disaster.

Well, i said h-man did best job so far. His failure is minor, i'll explain it:

• lack of drop pods and dread claws.
  
• defiler as artilery.
  
• marks of chaos does not distinguish just signed/normal/fanatic worshippers - they are all the same - all of them are fanatics - cult members.
  
• no non-rubric followers of tzeentch.
  
• internal balance problems. (DP over Lord issue, Oblits, HS>FA, overpriced Raptors and so on ...)
  
• over the top IG.
  

All those were problems. Still, Gav T failed totally..

[Prot]

I'd welcome that 'failure' back in a heartbeat.

[goldenwonder]

While I don't think GW would ever dare admit it publicly, I would have to believe behind closed doors some would secretly admit that current day Chaos is a smoldering dung pile.

 

When we have these monthly conversations, which always end the same, the one thing that I'm always left with is two fold: 1 is acceptance. We have a bland, flavourless, and boring codex. It is fact. 2 is.... when will it change? That's my real worry

 

I would have to agree. I wouldn't normally complain about a codex - because when all is said an done, even if they secretly know that the codex is severely lacking - they won't change it. Returning to the hobby after hiatus, my heart sank when I picked up the new codex. All the variety torn out, the cult armies in the true sense gone - no marked tanks/dreads, no true cult Termies (did the cult troops suddenly ditch terminator armour to gain favour? Icon'd Termies really irritate me - bezerkers don't stop being bezerkers when an icon bearer dies - so why do the toughest elite troops suddenly stop? ;) ) One particular point which infuriates me is the wording of the Dread's Crazed rules - I like Dreads alot from a fluff and model (forgeworld) standpoint but at present I can't see me fielding anything other than my twin-dccw dread as a points filler. It makes me glad I play Black Legion overall (mainly for the fluff - Nemesis of my first army Blood Angels) - but it is disheartening to see the other legions stripped of the rules that took so long to come in an instance - especially when a proportion of their customers chose Chaos because of these options. I wouldn't say the rules were particularly overpowered for any of the legions - they all had drawbacks and could all be beaten.

 

Whilst the previous 'dex wasn't perfect, I don't see why it needed to be replaced - especially in the manner it has been. Why not simply correct the flaws, there was no need to purge it's individuality. The previous 'dex allowed for forces to be customised to the players tastes and in my opinion represented both the Legions and Renegades infinitely better than the current codex. Arguably, the SM 'dex better represents undivided renegades ultimately.

 

Then again, these and many more complaints appear to have been repeated time and time again and nothing's going to change in the immediate future. One thing I am pleased to see though was the switching of category between Dreadnoughts and Obliterators to Elite and HS respectively - this was very logical to me. Also, although it seems to be a change of fluff (I could be wrong...?) it is nice to have access to Vindicators.

 

Is Chaos scary enough?

 

Yes and No. The army list is now predictable unless you play for fun and field the more fun units. Therefore you can plan further ahead and anticipate force composition easily. Although one could argue that the idea of using or facing cookie cutter armies over and over is a pretty scary one.

 

However, with the right player and tactics, Chaos is still a formidable force. Chaos still has the best Troops choices with Basic CSM's, Plague Marines, Noise Marines, Bezerkers. Chaos can still play offensively, defensively and balanced very well.

 

Praise to the Warmaster that Gav T is gone - lets just hope they keep JJ away from the Chaos Redux if/when it eventually happens.

[refuse]

We know G.W. have stated many times they won't do 'codex fixes' anymore. So we can kiss that option goodbye. Believe it or not, I'm not trying to be pessimistic, just realistic. I think GW have bigger fish to fry for the next 2 years.

I agree, but I also disagree. I think contionously reminding them what they did wrong (cause they won't admit it) reminds them not to do it again.

We (chaos) had our first hey day since Slaves in late 3rd edition (3.5 codex, and the libera chaotica).

I say, accept nothing, demand everything. We are the customers, if GW fails due to their stupidity so be it. If they live because we accept it, they will do worse to us the next time. And we see that. 3.0 and 4.0 versions of the codex.

 

Well, i said h-man did best job so far. His failure is minor, i'll explain it:

• lack of drop pods and dread claws.
  
• defiler as artilery.
  
• marks of chaos does not distinguish just signed/normal/fanatic worshippers - they are all the same - all of them are fanatics - cult members.
  
• no non-rubric followers of tzeentch.
  
• internal balance problems. (DP over Lord issue, Oblits, HS>FA, overpriced Raptors and so on ...)
  
• over the top IG.
  

All those were problems. Still, Gav T failed totally..

On hind sight yeah.

• In 3.5 we had infiltrate, deep strike and summoning. I could live with drop pods not being there (more deep striking wasn't bad as we had daemons back then). But with next to nothing in the new one, it shows how quick it was whipped up.
  
• I don't mind the defiler as artilery. For me it was sonic artillery. From the fluff it was only artillery. but 40k really doesn't need basalisks (wrong ranges to be fireing over) so I can live with it being short range. But it filled the role of the whirlwind, chaos needs some longer range stuff. Well so do the Tyranids and they had their artillery neutered in their 3.0 codex.
  
• I don't disagree about the marks. So nothing for renegad, Icons work for the "normal", marked for fanatic and cult for the hard core cult! But they had that in 3.5. CSM (renegade), undivided (as icons), and cult as cult. but I could see a level in there with icons, not a bad thing.
  
• I don't disagree that Tzeentch got short ended, but so did most of the cult troops. Tzeentch = 1k sons, Nurgle = death guard (sorry no nurgle worshippers carry long range weapons?), Khorne = beserkers/World Eaters. Heck Slaanesh (very slightly) got shafted as all Cult Slaanesh followers were noise marines. I complained about this when it came out, as noise marines are a subcult, not Emperor's Children. But I could choose not to take the Sonics so really nothing to complain about (except the normal Slaanesh = fearless to slaanesh = -1 I, but still nothing to complain about).
  
• Balance is balance. The underlying problem is 40k isn't that good a game. It isn't detailed and they make no attempt to balance units, in an army or accross armies. So . . . . . Really, the whole of the game isn't meant for competative play, and the rules are at best, weak compared to other rules out there. And over time they are continously "streamlineing because people are to stupid to use lots of rules" and not improving the rules.
  
• IG, they were chaos IG. so I liked it. (Well the LatD versions!)
  

[DuskRaider]

Oh no... Jervis DID admit that the Chaos Codex sucks. He SAID they'd fix the problems with new codices... God only knows when that is. Tau don't need a new codex, and truthfully? The Dark Eldar codex, while the oldest one of the mix, is STILL competitive. Sure, ours is too, but it's so bland and such a slap in the face to the folks who have been playing for years with a specific army, and to watch so much money go down the drain (Iron Warriors and Emperor's Children spring to mind), it's sickening. If anything, hand it over to Forge World. Let THEM make us Legion specific codices. They'll probably do a better job, anyhow.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Toss in some special characters that either affect the armies like SM's do or are super badass in their own right

What's wrong with just tying it to a generic Lord who chooses his Legion allegiance? That way you still get to customise your HQ if you want to play a certain army, special characters remain special because you no longer have to field them to play a certain army, and you can save the really nasty special abilities for the special characters.

Beside the fact that he is subpar option, very unstable, and require luck AND skill to use (and even then he is just mediocre and instankillable) - nothing ...

 

I was assuming they'd bother to fix the Lord in the new incarnation of the Codex. ;)

 

Am I being too optimistic? :)

[Night Lord Dred]

Ok, just want to start by saying that 3 months ago, I had no idea how to play W40k (or WFB).

 

I started Chaos Space Marines 6 or 7 years ago, but due to the old "must have painted models" rule, I never ended up playing. However, I did have one of the older codex versions, and I knew what chaos was about.

 

I picked the game back up late Feb when dawn of war 2 came out. I quickly learned the game, and have been going to the nearby battle bunker ever since. With a lot of reading on here, I made a pretty good list, and after 25 games or so, I havnt even lost one game. Infact, this past weekend i won a tournament, pretty shockingly.

 

However, Im bored of Chaos Space Marines. Dont get me wrong, Im not one of those people who makes an army for a month and gets bored. I love the CSMs. From the models to the stories and most of all to their chaotic nature. Ive read the stories in the two books I have more than enough times already, and I love the Night Lord lore. However, the army is just bland and boring for a few reasons.

 

1. Every Chaos army is the same - the strategies and playstyles are all the same. People have touched on this enough in here, so Im not going to say much. No diversity, no personal touch, its all generic. My Night Lords are the exact same as Iron Warriors. Stupid. Warhammer is great because you make your own army, not just buying the pieces to create the generic one.

 

2. There are models that are absolutely useless. While Im sure every army has a few of these, Chaos seems to have so few realistic options, limiting diversity.

 

HQ - DP (dominates lords and in most situations Sorcs as well)

Elites - Terminators (Dreads, Chosen, Possessed are all terrible)

Troops- Everything but thousand sons (what were they thinking?)

Fast Attack - Nothing (Raptors maybe, I really try to use them, but they are not very effective)

Heavy - Oblits and Defilers (Havocs are outmatched, Predators mostly useless, LR expensive)

 

So that leaves us with 1 HQ, 1 Elite, 4 Troops, and 2 heavies. 8 different units, 4 being troops, which arnt going to be terribly exciting.

 

Mark me down as a new codex player that has gone back and read the old codex, and wishes I could go back in time and play with that one instead.

 

 

With that said, I just wanted to say that this last week Ive decided to buy some Tyranids. Ive got 2 battleforces, a hive tyrant, and the codex on the way. I also have about 40 models from a box of gaunts and buying the starter set models off a friend. Im excited because Im going to be able to make the tyranids my own, with plenty of options and weapons to be had, and many different army types. While their playstyle isnt incredibly exciting (run towards the enemy), Im still going to feel like my army is my army, and not the generic black legion army games workshop has written in stone.

 

Anyways, sorry for the long post. Just wanted to post my thoughts.

[Important]

Night Lord Dred what you said was good. Sums up how the codex is really.

 

Playing our codex now to even have a chance we have about the same options as the necron codex have.

[Night Stalker]

Night Lord Dred what you said was good. Sums up how the codex is really.

 

Playing our codex now to even have a chance we have about the same options as the necron codex have.

Hilarious - Necrons are known for their lack of identity and diversity (thats their design). Chaos was known as most varied and unique force :> Now both have similiar pool of playable units.

[Brother Hadafix]

C:CSM 4.0 scary... not at all! And it totally killed my apatite for collecting them. Now I play loyalist (not C:UM, I could never do that) And have found a army that can put the fear up CSM players spines, and is flavoursome and I an make my own.

 

Refuse, I know what you mean and the LatD, it still hurts that GW killed them :)

[Prot]

Yup, you got it NightLord Dred.

 

So that leaves us with 1 HQ, 1 Elite, 4 Troops, and 2 heavies. 8 different units, 4 being troops, which arnt going to be terribly exciting.

 

Mark me down as a new codex player that has gone back and read the old codex, and wishes I could go back in time and play with that one instead.

 

And this is coming from a pretty new player. Usually I find the newer players will argue with me a bit on these points (Flavour/flexibilty/etc). The newer player will sometimes latch on to the 3-4 staples in the list and say 'ah-ah I can win with this!'.... Yea... so what.

 

I had a debate once with a hardcore marine player. A good guy, but really stubborn and he was telling me he didn't think Chaos 'lost' anything in terms of choices, and flavour. It kinda went like this:

 

Me: The legions are dead. There's no true flavour anymore. It's a one trick pony now and we just have different coloured armour now.

Marine dude: That's not true! There's... lots of stuff that works! You NEVER had legion rules so how can you lose them?

 

Me:Sure we did. It wasn't a 'stand alone codex' . How would you feel if let's say you LOST the Space Wolves, and I told you to use Ultra marine rules?

 

Marine dude: That's not the same, you never had your own codex.

 

Me: No, but the ultimate flexibilty in troops, HQ and other unit options gave us the ABILITY to make whatever legion we wanted. That's all gone... we are all.. the same now.

Marine dude: I like to eat glue.

 

Okay, I made that last part up. But still it shows that a lot of people don't even realize the differences unless you've been there. Chaos is an army a lot of people don't really 'get'... kind of like Tau. You either love them, or really don't know much about them (unless you face them a lot).

[incinerator950]

Prot just hit the nail on the head with the Hammer.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Whats even more annoying though Prot, is the people that know only a weak, pathetic version of what the Legions are. For example, I've lost count of the number of times I've been told "just take Raptors" for my Night Lords, when I could instead use the Loyalist rules, and gain Sniper Rifles, Drop-pods and an orbital bombardment, and have Assault Marines stand in for the Raptors people seem to want me to spam, but I don't really use. Which seems to be more of a "terror tactics" list, the one with the half-seen shadows sniping at you, while drop-pods scream down from the sky, heralded by a pillar of light obliterating your command bunker; or the guys with a few jump-packs?

 

For all those people out there, let me be abundantly clear. Night Lords are not the "Raptor Legion!" Alpha Legion are not the "Infiltrate Legion!" Iron Warriors are [/i]not [/i] the "Heavy Support Legion!" Legions had much, much more character than that! And I haven't even started on the Cult Legions yet.

So no, a CSM army with 3 Raptor squads doesn't make it a Night Lords army. The only thing to have ever stated that was the 3.5 rules, really, and those kinda missed the point in most regards.

 

Really, I fail to see how Legions aren't different enough for their own Codex, when Dark Angels get an entirely seperate codex just to give Terminators, Bikes, Land Speeders and HQ choices different names. Blood Angels I can understand, but Dark Angels are a codex Chapter! Their only differences are the Death and Ravenwings, and those can be explained by "paint Terminators in bone, and Bikes/Speeders black." In one single sentence, I have just removed the need for a Dark Angels codex. Keep the models, because those are cool as all hell, but with the rules... seriously, what the hell?

[Captain Ienai]

Just spent about 2 hours reading this topic. Thank you everyone for the information involved. All that is left for me to decide on is whether i want my Fallen Black Templar Crusade to use the BT codex or run off the new Space Marine codex when I play with my friends. I'll be making a post about it shortly.

[Pigeons]

alright, i'll chime in with some of the things that annoy me in the new codex:

 

 

 

-why the heck are terminators not fearless? o.O

 

 

ten thousand years of combat against demons, gods, aliens, mutants, monsters, psykers, fellow traitors, beastmen, renegade imperial guard, pirates and etc in the most inhospitable and mind warping environments imaginable within the Eye of Terror, where reality itself can be changed and the laws of psychics don't apply, they're armored in literally the best armor in the galaxy, equipped with the best weapons they can find(some of them demon imbuded if we're talking fluff), they lead entire other armies into battle ...oh and on top of all of that, they TELEPORT into battle...an expirence that has to be terrifying...and yet, they aren't fearless?

 

-and why no relentless rule? why are only their loyalist brethren relentless?

 

- the fact that we can't give aspiring champs terminator armor from the armory anymore

 

-generic chaos spawn. they totally suck, so i don't see how giving them a mark of chaos would unbalance the game. just makes them at least playable, and fits better with the fluff.

 

-the fact that chosen aren't fearless. same logic as with the terminators. also; i'm fine with GW taking away the ability to give veteran abilities or whatever they were called to basically everything in the army...but shouldn't chosen still have the option for veteran abilities?

 

-the artwork and pictures of models in the book not reflecting the actual list. -.-

 

this is very frustrating, like how you clearly see a hell talon in the picture of the demon prince on page 11. but not in the list.

 

and on the back freaking cover, there's a squad of noise marines with two blastmasters. now, unless i'm reading the rules wrong, you can only have ONE blastmaster per squad. so what's this squad doing with two?

 

 

 

just little nit picks like that annoy me.

 

 

overall i like the codex and i'm fine with it, because i don't play a legion army. i wrote up my own fluff for my own totally unique army, and wrote the fluff around the army list i had written up. so it explains the army and makes it characterful, and i enjoy it because it's not the same as every other list. no oblits(perish the thought!), no plague marines, no zerkers.

 

 

and i'm not a power gamer by any means, so i still enjoy using chaos lords and raptors even if everyone thinks they suck now.

 

i fully believe that the game is balanced enough for any army to beat any other army; it's all just about tactics. everyone always says the only viable lists anymore are lash princes/oblit/plague marines lists...i think you're just not putting enough effort into it. instead of making an army you think is fun and then playing it on the table and adapting your tactics and style of play to fit your army, you just go for what looks best and most powerful on paper.

 

 

 

anyway, i know none of the above will mean anything to anyone, since i haven't played an actual game yet, so you'll just say "oh you think that now, but wait until you play for real"...which is probably true. but whatever. i enjoy my list the way it is, and i don't mind losing. losing a game of warhammer 40k still seems a hell of a lot more fun to me that working. :P

 

 

just my two cents.

[Draeden]

Pigeons, Terminators don't need the relentless rule because Terminator Armor confers the same benefits as Relentless.

[incinerator950]

alright, i'll chime in with some of the things that annoy me in the new codex:

 

 

 

-why the heck are terminators not fearless? o.O

 

 

ten thousand years of combat against demons, gods, aliens, mutants, monsters, psykers, fellow traitors, beastmen, renegade imperial guard, pirates and etc in the most inhospitable and mind warping environments imaginable within the Eye of Terror, where reality itself can be changed and the laws of psychics don't apply, they're armored in literally the best armor in the galaxy, equipped with the best weapons they can find(some of them demon imbuded if we're talking fluff), they lead entire other armies into battle ...oh and on top of all of that, they TELEPORT into battle...an expirence that has to be terrifying...and yet, they aren't fearless?

 

-and why no relentless rule? why are only their loyalist brethren relentless?

 

- the fact that we can't give aspiring champs terminator armor from the armory anymore

 

-generic chaos spawn. they totally suck, so i don't see how giving them a mark of chaos would unbalance the game. just makes them at least playable, and fits better with the fluff.

 

-the fact that chosen aren't fearless. same logic as with the terminators. also; i'm fine with GW taking away the ability to give veteran abilities or whatever they were called to basically everything in the army...but shouldn't chosen still have the option for veteran abilities?

 

-the artwork and pictures of models in the book not reflecting the actual list. -.-

 

this is very frustrating, like how you clearly see a hell talon in the picture of the demon prince on page 11. but not in the list.

 

and on the back freaking cover, there's a squad of noise marines with two blastmasters. now, unless i'm reading the rules wrong, you can only have ONE blastmaster per squad. so what's this squad doing with two?

 

 

 

just little nit picks like that annoy me.

 

 

overall i like the codex and i'm fine with it, because i don't play a legion army. i wrote up my own fluff for my own totally unique army, and wrote the fluff around the army list i had written up. so it explains the army and makes it characterful, and i enjoy it because it's not the same as every other list. no oblits(perish the thought!), no plague marines, no zerkers.

 

 

and i'm not a power gamer by any means, so i still enjoy using chaos lords and raptors even if everyone thinks they suck now.

 

i fully believe that the game is balanced enough for any army to beat any other army; it's all just about tactics. everyone always says the only viable lists anymore are lash princes/oblit/plague marines lists...i think you're just not putting enough effort into it. instead of making an army you think is fun and then playing it on the table and adapting your tactics and style of play to fit your army, you just go for what looks best and most powerful on paper.

 

 

 

anyway, i know none of the above will mean anything to anyone, since i haven't played an actual game yet, so you'll just say "oh you think that now, but wait until you play for real"...which is probably true. but whatever. i enjoy my list the way it is, and i don't mind losing. losing a game of warhammer 40k still seems a hell of a lot more fun to me that working. ;)

 

 

just my two cents.

 

I'm using a Sorcerer with wings and Wind of Chaos...unless I find a more viable spell selection I dunno, the Sorcerer model I bought didn't have a plasma pistol and I don't want to butcher the model as the spare pp I used to have went missing :). As for plague marines, my army is dedicated to Nurgle (not Death Guard) so P:.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Pigeons, Terminators don't need the relentless rule because Terminator Armor confers the same benefits as Relentless.

 

It doesn't. Chaos terminators can move and fire heavy weapons, and assault after firing heavy and rapid fire weapons. That is all. What this means is they cannot move and fire their tl-bolters at 24 inches. Relentless would allow them to.

[Draeden]

Wow, I completely missed that wording... dear dark gods that sucks then..

[the jeske]

there are reasons why terminators are not used as assault units and only as cheap anti tank meta.

[Pigeons]

i miss how cool chosen were in the last edition too

 

 

if i remember correctly, you could upgrade an entire unit to aspiring champions and give them all terminator armor. or mount the whole squad on bikes.

 

 

crazy stuff like that to make some seriously rock hard units.

 

 

they're pretty lame in the new edition.

[Stormwulf133]

Maybe it's time that you guys stopped bashing GW and appreciate the fact that they're trying to make this game fun and not restricted by the fluff. And honestly, if you want to field the older lists, why not just ask your friend if you can, I'm sure they wouldn't mind if you had the Codex. I know I wouldn't. I just played a game against Space Wolves today and found myself having a great time watching my opponent struggle holding 105 dice in two hands and then rolling them! Old Codices haven't ceased existing, they are still viable to use if you want to play a game against a friend and get a blast from the past.

 

~David the Despoiler

 

And maybe its time GW started looking more at what its customers want, instead of what ever pops out of the head at the moment. They follow a path. The path is, "This has no place in 40k." "Now it does." "Now it doesn't" deamon armies anyone? I remember it directly from the mouths of the powers that be at the time, a statement to the effect of "Daemon armies have no place in 40k." Oh look what they just did?

 

As for your statement about fluff......Maybe the fluff IS the fun of the game for some people? Without it, we would be playing complicated chess.

 

Old Codices HAVE ceased to exist as you can no longer buy them, and are no longer legal in any official scene.

 

I think if this is the trend of the current codex, then GW should have to give me credit for my IW baslisk if I send it in to them. How would they credit me back all the time I spent converting it though? As a tyranid player as well, don't get me started but that isn't the subject here.

 

For me the fun IS gone with chaos because the fluff WAS the game for me. They ripped that from my Iron Warriors. No more baslisks, no more fielding squads of 3 6 or 9 to be fluffy and still get the weapons my squad is due. I guess for now, they will wait in the warp and I shall play my Sons of Russ who haven't had a codex in 9 YEARS!

[incinerator950]

Maybe it's time that you guys stopped bashing GW and appreciate the fact that they're trying to make this game fun and not restricted by the fluff. And honestly, if you want to field the older lists, why not just ask your friend if you can, I'm sure they wouldn't mind if you had the Codex. I know I wouldn't. I just played a game against Space Wolves today and found myself having a great time watching my opponent struggle holding 105 dice in two hands and then rolling them! Old Codices haven't ceased existing, they are still viable to use if you want to play a game against a friend and get a blast from the past.

 

~David the Despoiler

 

And maybe its time GW started looking more at what its customers want, instead of what ever pops out of the head at the moment. They follow a path. The path is, "This has no place in 40k." "Now it does." "Now it doesn't" deamon armies anyone? I remember it directly from the mouths of the powers that be at the time, a statement to the effect of "Daemon armies have no place in 40k." Oh look what they just did?

 

As for your statement about fluff......Maybe the fluff IS the fun of the game for some people? Without it, we would be playing complicated chess.

 

Old Codices HAVE ceased to exist as you can no longer buy them, and are no longer legal in any official scene.

 

I think if this is the trend of the current codex, then GW should have to give me credit for my IW baslisk if I send it in to them. How would they credit me back all the time I spent converting it though? As a tyranid player as well, don't get me started but that isn't the subject here.

 

For me the fun IS gone with chaos because the fluff WAS the game for me. They ripped that from my Iron Warriors. No more baslisks, no more fielding squads of 3 6 or 9 to be fluffy and still get the weapons my squad is due. I guess for now, they will wait in the warp and I shall play my Sons of Russ who haven't had a codex in 9 YEARS!

 

No, he meant play old codexes in friendly terms. I agree with you, you left out the part that GW is in it for the money, not for the fun. If they were in it for that latter, we'd have old Rogue Trader like rules and have Space Marines that have Space Marine Fathers and Eldar Concubine mothers.