% Composition of Titan Legions

[minigun762]

Roughly speaking, what is the composition of a Titan Legion, regarding Warhounds, Reavers, Warlords and Emperors?

[jeffersonian000]

It varies from Legion to Legion with no set distribution between each different class of Titan. However, we do know this much: The smallest Titan Legion, the Legio Ordo Sinister, has only 12 Titans and all of them are Imperators. It also seems to be the case that most Titan Legions are between 40 and 60 Titans, and are set up much along the lines of a wet navy battle squadron; i.e., 2-4 paired Warlords supported by 2-4 paired Reavers and screened by 8-12 paired Warhounds.

 

(Note: navel units tend to be paired into detachments of two vessels of the same class, which are then attached to other detachments to from squadrons, which are then assigned a role in supported a battle group or task force. Ex: BatCruRon 5 is the 5th Battle Cruiser Squadron and has 8 BC’s of various classes.)

 

 

I’m just guessing, though, based on my own military background and on my read of the fluff dealing with Titan Legions.

 

SJ

[Sons of Horus]

as mentioned earlier there is no set percentage. most legions don't even have emperor class Titans.

[minigun762]

It varies from Legion to Legion with no set distribution between each different class of Titan. However, we do know this much: The smallest Titan Legion, the Legio Ordo Sinister, has only 12 Titans and all of them are Imperators. It also seems to be the case that most Titan Legions are between 40 and 60 Titans, and are set up much along the lines of a wet navy battle squadron; i.e., 2-4 paired Warlords supported by 2-4 paired Reavers and screened by 8-12 paired Warhounds.

 

(Note: navel units tend to be paired into detachments of two vessels of the same class, which are then attached to other detachments to from squadrons, which are then assigned a role in supported a battle group or task force. Ex: BatCruRon 5 is the 5th Battle Cruiser Squadron and has 8 BC’s of various classes.)

 

 

I’m just guessing, though, based on my own military background and on my read of the fluff dealing with Titan Legions.

 

SJ

 

Hmm some very good information there. I had known about the pairing of Warhounds but not the other Titans.

 

I understand that the Emperor is incredibly rare, and that the Reaver is becoming more and more rare, but how much more so then say a Warlord.

 

Maybe I'll phrase my question another way, of all the Titans out there, does anyone know how many are what types?

Example are more than 50% Warhounds or Warlords?

Are Reavers 10%, 1%, 0.01%?

 

I'm not expecting hard numbers (but that would cool) more of rough estimates to understand how common you'd see different types.

[jeffersonian000]

Well, Warhounds are the smallest and easiest to manufacture (which probably still takes 10+ years from start to finish), so you could easily say that Warhounds fill out the bulk of most Legions.

 

As to Reavers and Warlords, both are battle titans, both are intended to fulfill the role of direct combat. However, Reavers are smaller than Warlords and are therefore cheaper and easier to manufacture, so one could say that there are more Reavers than Warlords. Also, some forge world may not be able to build a titan heavier than a Reaver, while other forge worlds chose to only build Warlords.

 

Emperors are fantastically rare, fantastically powerful, and just as fantastically difficult to build as they are to destroy. These guys are the fewest in number.

 

Taken all together, one could say that well established forge world could produce Warlords at a rate of a handful each century, and would therefore most likely support a Legion of a 12 or more Warlords. They may even have produced an Emperor or two in the glory days of the Great Crusade. And as the need to support these living gods of flesh and metal, one such forge world would need to produce enough Warhounds to provide a proper screen of light units. This means that on the lighter side of numbers, such a forge world could sponsor a Titan Legion of 40 units composed of a core battle group of Warlords screened by two-three times their number in Warhounds.

 

Another example could be a poorer forge world that can only really produce Warhounds in number. They most likely will field a Legion composed of several Reaver strike groups that are again screened by Warhounds. This could number anywhere from to low 30's to the high 50's, with each squadron of Reavers supported by twice their number of Warhounds.

 

And then there are the Knight worlds, which provide agro products to their sponsoring forge world in return for Knight-class titans. A Knight household tends to number upwards to 10 Knights, one of which is their feudal lord, or Baron. Several Knight Households could be on campaign with their sponsoring Titan Legion, and therefore fulfilling the screening element normally associated with Warhounds. This frees up the Warhounds for hunter-killer missions, where they might be paired with sets of Reavers (faster than Warlords, yet still battle titans in their own right) to act as flanking units for the main battle group. This would leave a core of Warlords as the main battle formation, and if the Legion is big enough, they may even have an Emperor or two as the nucleus of their battle line. A Legion like this would number from the high 80's to low 100's.

 

If I may ask, what are your plans?

 

SJ

[Vodunius]

As to Reavers and Warlords, both are battle titans, both are intended to fulfill the role of direct combat. However, Reavers are smaller than Warlords and are therefore cheaper and easier to manufacture, so one could say that there are more Reavers than Warlords. Also, some forge world may not be able to build a titan heavier than a Reaver, while other forge worlds chose to only build Warlords.

 

Is there not actually an old canon statement that there are far less Reavers than Warlords?

[minigun762]

As to Reavers and Warlords, both are battle titans, both are intended to fulfill the role of direct combat. However, Reavers are smaller than Warlords and are therefore cheaper and easier to manufacture, so one could say that there are more Reavers than Warlords. Also, some forge world may not be able to build a titan heavier than a Reaver, while other forge worlds chose to only build Warlords.

 

Is there not actually an old canon statement that there are far less Reavers than Warlords?

 

That was my understanding, something along the lines that the design pre-dates the Warlord and therefore is much harder to create, if its possible at all.

 

Jeffersonian000: Thats some good food for thought. I personally was under the impression that only certain forge worlds could build certain Titan types, I didn't know that some we're advanced enough to build a variety (with the exception of Mars naturally).

 

As for my plans, its first and foremost a background question, I just like filling in the gaps in my knowledge. Other than that, I'm planning on adding some Titans to my army in the nearish future and wanted to know what a "reasonable" assortment was. My long term goal is probably 2 Warhounds with a Reaver and Warlord.

[jeffersonian000]

Well, at 40k scale, any Titans you field will be an appropriate percentage of a Titan Legion, as most people will not be able to field more than just a handful of Titans in one army for any one game.

 

As to Reaver being rarer, that is correct. They do predate Warlords and quite uncommon of the field; however, it is not due to Reavers being more difficult the build. It's just that if you can build a Reaver, you can build a Warlord, and Warlords are more survivable than Reavers.

 

The one thing most people forget is that Titans take decades to build, and even if destroyed in combat a Titan can be rebuilt/refurbished and put back into battle. The only Titans that are lost are those lost to the warp or those that fall in battle in places that they can never be retreived from (i.e., world blows up). Yet even with this fact, only the resources of a forge world can return a fallen Titan to active status, and most of the time the same resources needed to fix a fallen Titan are better spent on other needed projects.

 

Another factoid is that Titans predate the Age of Strife, and were use by the Emperor as seige engines during his original crusade to place Earth under his rule; the Emperor brought Titans to Mars, and Mars has forever associated Titans with the Emperors divinity via the Omnissiah prophacy. And if memory serves me, those Titans were MkI Warlords, aka beatle-backs.

 

Of course, I started playing 40k with Rogue Trader, and I played the epic game Space Marine when it first came out, so while I'm very confident in my history of Titans in general, my sources are long since gone.

 

SJ

[Sons of Horus]

I believe quite a number of forgeworlds can actually build several Titan classes thus the Titan Legions having their respective homeworlds. Mars for example has several Titan Legions in it

[Accommodator]

Just to toss in some more info on the Reaver - they used to be considered main battle titans, until the advent of the Warlord class. Now, they generally perform the role of firesupport, rather than front line battle titans. And yes, they are increasingly rare because they have been superseded by the more capable class.

 

Of course, with a new Forgeworld pumping out Reavers by the truck load, and no Warlords on the horizen, that may change. (Okay, so I brought real world resin models into the fluff.... :) )

[Severus6]

Roughly speaking, what is the composition of a Titan Legion, regarding Warhounds, Reavers, Warlords and Emperors?

 

I was alway under the impression that Emp Class Titans were somewhat rare and any Titan Legion was very happy to have one. I guess I can see a basic (emphasis on the word basic) as having the following:

 

1. Emperor (0-1)

2. Warlord (1-2)

3. Reaver (2-3)

4. Warhounds (4-8) Generally an even number as they are fielded in hunter-killer teams or flankers.

5. Skitarri force / Tech Guard support force (possibly with a super heavy tank,...Shadowsword?)

6. A squadron/wing/House of Knights (1-3)

7. Whatever else that the AM or Tiatn Legion has access to.

 

Granted to the best of my knowledge, their is no current up to date actual lay down of a Titan Legion. I simply base this on the several books that have been out recently on the AM and the Titan Legions. Numbers will obviously vary based on pre and post Heresy and the ability of each legion able to replace or repair their losses not to mention what the AM can create.

 

Severus6

[Sons of Horus]

@severus6: but that's definitely too small to make a Titan Legion. most are at least 20 strong.

[Severus6]

As said, its a very basic lay down. Every now and then you see the term "demi-legion" thrown about in the older background. I always got the impression that this was a smaller legion not completely up to strength.

 

that's definitely too small to make a Titan Legion. most are at least 20 strong.

 

Are you absolutely certain about that? Please bear in mind that this is not a shot at you, I would just like to know the reference material you got it from as I would like to add it to my own personal fact sheet. Thanks.

 

Severus6

[jeffersonian000]

As said, its a very basic lay down. Every now and then you see the term "demi-legion" thrown about in the older background. I always got the impression that this was a smaller legion not completely up to strength.

 

A demi-[formation] is a military unit take samller in size than its designation yet larger than the next size down. Ex: two platoons could be considered a demi-company, while two companies could be consider a demi-battalion.

 

In the case of a demi-legion, I can only assume they are referencing a formation that is far too small to be consider a full Legion. At a guess, based on later day Roman army formations, a Legion was 6 centuries for an average a 600 men, a century was aproximately 10 triaris, which in turn was composed of two 5-man maniples. This is much like a Space Marine Chapter being 10 companies of 10 squads or 2 combat squads, or thereabouts. Now, if one Titan is equivalent to one triari/squad, then you get a rough number of 60 Titans to a Legion. And a demi-legion would have between 30 and 45 Titans, maybe less. The Legio Ordo Sinister, which has 12 Emperor-class Titans, is considered a full Legion, so a demi-legion could be as small as 6 or less Titans.

 

 

that's definitely too small to make a Titan Legion. most are at least 20 strong.

 

Are you absolutely certain about that? Please bear in mind that this is not a shot at you, I would just like to know the reference material you got it from as I would like to add it to my own personal fact sheet. Thanks.

 

Severus6

 

There are published lists of known Legions, with approximate sizes for some of them. As such, we do know from fluff that most legions fall between 12 and 60, with 100+ on the upper side of Legion sizes.

 

SJ

[Severus6]

There are published lists of known Legions, with approximate sizes for some of them. As such, we do know from fluff that most legions fall between 12 and 60, with 100+ on the upper side of Legion sizes.

 

Again, not doubting the information, only requesting a site/link or other reference material so that I can look upon it myself. I have looked at some of the old Titanticus game set rules (Epic) and the have some basic lay out schematics (for lack of a better term) but I am not real certain how valid they are with this round of newer background material.

 

The numbers 12-60 seems extremely broad but never-the-less more than feasible. However, with a hundred plus, my assumption would be that these are Titan Legions that are either very close to Terra, on Terra or on Mars.

 

Severus6

[havoc3149]

Regarding Emperor class titans too, they are not really super rare and it says in Codex Titanicus that most legions can field up to 3 or 4 emperor titans, ignoring the ordo mandanti which only uses imperators, and the higher figures in recent fluff like titanicus really support this figure, as a emperor may act as the command unit for a demi legion of around 15 units or so.

 

However, warhounds are not really that numerous as well, since while they certainly outnumber emperors, warlords and reavers are the main battle component of the legion, with recent novels like Storm of Iron, Mechanicus, and Titanicus that have warhounds acting as a actual scout asset, and warlords as the main battle component suplemented by reavers.

 

Forgot to mention that these figures are not based off modern screening and fleet ratios, as titan legions often act as the heaviest support an imperial force can get, which the mighty and more availible warlords fulfill the best.

[Severus6]

So I guess a secondary question would be, what would a "well rounded" standard Titan Legion have based on current background and storyline? This would include all of the support assests as well? Granted this is nothing but rewording the original question but what needs to be included is the right "feel" and the ranking system as well. I do not want this to be an exercise in over the top or Mary-Sue creativity. Standard means just that.

 

Thus we are creating our own Titan Legion broken down into 2-3 demi legions based on actual size.

 

Emperor Class Titan(s)

Reaver Class Titans

Warlord Class Titans

Warhound Class Titans

Skitarri Support Force

A squadron/wing/House of Knights (May or may not be a part of the Titan Legion proper but has close ties or oaths sworn.)

Other AM representatives and resources based on current background.

 

We would need names for the actual legion plus each Titan/Knight and any other pertinent forces. Force structure and actual size for the Skitarri force and how they would be armed and armored. That and any and all groups associated with the Legion.

 

This is to be a group effort so any and all information is good. If there is a disagreement it will be handled like grown-ups as bickering and in-fighting wont do any good and only lead to failure for the group or exclusion of the individual. Be prepared to show/quote reference material to back claims so that we, the group, are able to reconcile and present an up to date and accurate (as close as possible) background-centric example.

 

This is obviously not an official/sanctioned project but I am curious as to its final outcome. Any and all are welcome.

 

Severus6

[minigun762]

So I guess a secondary question would be, what would a "well rounded" standard Titan Legion have based on current background and storyline? This would include all of the support assests as well? Granted this is nothing but rewording the original question but what needs to be included is the right "feel" and the ranking system as well. I do not want this to be an exercise in over the top or Mary-Sue creativity. Standard means just that.

 

Thus we are creating our own Titan Legion broken down into 2-3 demi legions based on actual size.

 

Emperor Class Titan(s)

Reaver Class Titans

Warlord Class Titans

Warhound Class Titans

Skitarri Support Force

A squadron/wing/House of Knights (May or may not be a part of the Titan Legion proper but has close ties or oaths sworn.)

Other AM representatives and resources based on current background.

 

We would need names for the actual legion plus each Titan/Knight and any other pertinent forces. Force structure and actual size for the Skitarri force and how they would be armed and armored. That and any and all groups associated with the Legion.

 

This is to be a group effort so any and all information is good. If there is a disagreement it will be handled like grown-ups as bickering and in-fighting wont do any good and only lead to failure for the group or exclusion of the individual. Be prepared to show/quote reference material to back claims so that we, the group, are able to reconcile and present an up to date and accurate (as close as possible) background-centric example.

 

This is obviously not an official/sanctioned project but I am curious as to its final outcome. Any and all are welcome.

 

Severus6

 

That would be quite interesting. One thing I'm thinking about, how common are the Knight units? They only time I've ever seen them mentioned was in the HH Mechanicum book and they did not make it appear that they were a standard formation like Skitarii or Titans. I almost got the sense that they were used when they couldn't/didn't want to use normal units.

 

EDIT: Oddly enough, one of the only two times I've ever seen a Emperor Titan mentioned in a BL book is in Dark Apostle and in that situation it was completely unsupported by other Titan elements. Thinking back on it, it just seemed odd.

Truth be told it was backed up by a substantial IG and Skitarii force.

[jeffersonian000]

I forget where I acquired it, but I do have a PDF of known Titan Legions covering all of the mentioned Legions from Space Marine through to Epic 40; just e-mail me and I'll send it to you.

 

As to a standard build of a Titan base strike force with support elements, I'd think it would look somewhat like this:

 

Demi-Legion:

0+ Emperors

12 Warlords/Reaves (Warlord fielded in pairs, Reavers fielded in three's)

8 Warhounds (fielded in pairs)

5-10 Knights (one full household = 1 Baron + 3 squads of 3 Knights or 1 Senchal + 2-4 Knights)

 

Tech Guard:

1 Battalion of Heavy infantry (Praetorians, 3-4 companys including transport element)

1 Regiment of Light Infantry (Skitarii, 3-4 battalions including transport element)

3+ Armoured Companies (Tanks, sub-Super Heavies; i.e., Leman Russ's)

1+ Super Heavy Tank Detachments (1-3 Super Heavies per detachment)

 

Space Marine detachment:

1+ Companies (may or may not include tranport element if an Emperor is available)

1+ Terminator squads (if Corvus Assault Pods are used)

 

Edit: Remember that the support elements are not part of a Titan Legion, and are supplied by allied forces/Planetary Defense Forces, not the Adeptus Mechanicus.

 

SJ

[Severus6]

Reavers fielded in three's

 

Why is that? Is that based on weaponry or tactical considerations. Also, why only eight (8) Warhounds? I totally agree with them being fielded in pairs but why only eight (8)? Is this a standard configuration that allows the Legion to screen all four cardinal directions? It seems a bit light? Now granted the Knight Household could move forward but they just dont have the "umph" to really mix it up. I can see them on the far flanks acting in a guard mission in support of the Warhounds or even acting as spotters for the Warlords and Reavers but certainly not up front/expected enemy action acting as part of the screen-line.

 

Severus6

[Severus6]

Demi-Legion:

0+ Emperors

12 Warlords/Reaves (Warlord fielded in pairs, Reavers fielded in three's)

8 Warhounds (fielded in pairs)

5-10 Knights (one full household = 1 Baron + 3 squads of 3 Knights or 1 Senchal + 2-4 Knights)

 

Tech Guard:

1 Battalion of Heavy infantry (Praetorians, 3-4 companys including transport element)

1 Regiment of Light Infantry (Skitarii, 3-4 battalions including transport element)

3+ Armoured Companies (Tanks, sub-Super Heavies; i.e., Leman Russ's)

1+ Super Heavy Tank Detachments (1-3 Super Heavies per detachment)

 

Space Marine detachment:

1+ Companies (may or may not include tranport element if an Emperor is available)

1+ Terminator squads (if Corvus Assault Pods are used)

 

Thats a decent start by the way. But to be honest, I really dont think we need to add any type of Space Marine forces to the mix right now. (I know, I just spoke B&C Heresy,... ;) )

 

Severus6

[Vodunius]

Don't recall what loyalists used, but the Festering Death used Battlegroups of 3 titans for both Reavers and Warlords.

[jeffersonian000]

Reavers fielded in three's

 

Why is that? Is that based on weaponry or tactical considerations. Also, why only eight (8) Warhounds? I totally agree with them being fielded in pairs but why only eight (8)? Is this a standard configuration that allows the Legion to screen all four cardinal directions? It seems a bit light? Now granted the Knight Household could move forward but they just dont have the "umph" to really mix it up. I can see them on the far flanks acting in a guard mission in support of the Warhounds or even acting as spotters for the Warlords and Reavers but certainly not up front/expected enemy action acting as part of the screen-line.

 

Severus6

 

Reavers in threes is just something I remember from Space Marine that stuck in my head throughout Titan Legion and Epic 40k. 8 Warhounds is a lot of metal, and if you run your Reavers and Worlords in divisions of three, that would give you a pair of scouts for each BatDiv or 4 'Hounds screening each of the 2 Reaver BatDivs. As to Knight Households, they are chasers/beaters used to out flank opponents and/or drive them into a killing field in front of the main battle group, or in a close ranged combat they acted as a screening element to keep the horde from their bigger cousins. In point of fact, Knights fill a role that can be assigned to Warhounds or to an armoured vehicle column; its just that 'Hounds and tanks can be used for other things while Knights actually do excel at this specific role. If you don't have Knights, you should field more 'Hounds (probably on a 2:1 ratio).

 

In affect, if Worlords are Battleships (BB's) and Reavers are Battle Cruisers (BC's), then Warhounds are Cruisers (LC's) and Knights are Destroyers (DD's). This would make an Emperor a Dreadnought or Super-Dreadnought (DN or SD). Of course, this is all based on a doctorine that they may or not even follow, just the one I feel fits the situation and my read of both fluff and fiction.

 

SJ

 

Edit was for spelling.

[minigun762]

I wonder if a Legion would even be bound by some sort of organizational chart, or if they would just field what they had.

Considering how long it takes to build a Titan, especially a battle Titan, would that stop the commander in charge of a Titan group from fielding a single Warhound or 2 Reavers and not 3?

 

In affect, if Worlords are Battleships (BB's) and Reavers are Battle Cruisers (BC's), then Warhounds are Cruisers (LC's) and Knights are Destroyers (DD's). This would make an Emperor a Dreadnought or Super-Dreadnought (DN or SD). Of course, this is all based on a doctorine that they may or not even follow, just the one I feel fits the situation and my read of both fluff and fiction.

Thats a good way of looking at it, but I'd say that the approximate ship classes are one size too big.

Reavers and Warlords are the workhorses of any Titan Legion, which fits them closer to the Cruiser category, so I'd see it going like this (keeping in my this is based on 40k fleets, not our ocean navies)

 

Emperor Titans = Battleships

Warlord Titans = Battle/Heavy Cruisers

Reaver Titans = Normal/Light Cruisers

Warhounds = Frigates/Destroyers

Knights = Attack Craft/Bombers/Patrol Boats

[jeffersonian000]

I was going more for roles than classes. A battleship is intended to either go against other battleships or stand off and bombard a target. A battle cruiser is intended to hunt smaller ships while having the speed to stay away from bigger ships. Cruisers, be they light, heavy, or armoured, tend to be used for protection duties, raiding, and scouting in force. Destroyers where developed specifically for the role of screening where they destroy lighter craft before they are able to range on the bigger vessels with anti-ship weapons (torpedoes, anti-ship missiles). Dreadnoughts are a type of battleship that mounts all heavy weapons for each weapon role on the vessel. Super-Dreadnoughts are just bigger, heavier, and tougher than all lesser vessels.

 

When you look at classes over roles, you'll notice that many different classes of vessels are lumped into the same categories; i.e., Dreads, Super-Dreads, and Battle Cruisers and all just Battleships build to specific design needs, while Cruisers are jack of all trade designs that balance speed vs armour vs weapons vs operating time. Destroyers are role specific. Frigates and Corvettes are roles rather than classes, yet are actual class specifications for roles that are filled by other classes, hence their lack of use in modern navies. Remember, once upon a time, Frigates and Battleships were the exact same thing, and Battle Cruisers were just down armoured Battleships fill the same role that Frigates use to fill. Then there is the Fast Frigate, which is a class between a Destroyers and Corvettes that today’s Destroyers fill the role of, while Corvettes are just small Destroyers these days when once upon a time they were fast sloops-of-war that filled the same role as Battle Cruisers do these days.

 

Which is to say, I'm just basing my views on the modern day roles we've assigned to the most comparable war machines of our time to the Titans of 40k. And yes, I do play Battle Fleet Gothic as well as Epic 40k.

 

SJ