% Composition of Titan Legions

[Severus6]

Knights = Destroyers (household = flotilla)

Warhounds = Light Cruisers (detachments of 2, squadrons of up to 8)

Reavers = Heavy Cruisers/Battlecruisers (detachments of 2, squadrons of up to 8)

Warlords = Battleships/Dreadnoughts (detachments of 2, squadrons of up to 8)

Emperors = Superdreadnoughts (squadrons of up to 2)

 

I think thats rather close for simply a mental exercise,...but I always got the impression that Knight Households were larger; rather 3-10 it was more like 6-15. I dont base that on any specific documentation butas smaller "engines" with less firepower you would need more to fill a viable combat role inside of a Titan Legion even if that role was simply Recon and Screen/Guard Missions.

 

Severus6

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Knights = Destroyers (household = flotilla)

Warhounds = Light Cruisers (detachments of 2, squadrons of up to 8)

Reavers = Heavy Cruisers/Battlecruisers (detachments of 2, squadrons of up to 8)

Warlords = Battleships/Dreadnoughts (detachments of 2, squadrons of up to 8)

Emperors = Superdreadnoughts (squadrons of up to 2)

 

I think thats rather close for simply a mental exercise,...but I always got the impression that Knight Households were larger; rather 3-10 it was more like 6-15. I dont base that on any specific documentation butas smaller "engines" with less firepower you would need more to fill a viable combat role inside of a Titan Legion even if that role was simply Recon and Screen/Guard Missions.

 

Severus6

they're not actually part of the legion, they're support.

just like the IG are either infantry (or mechanized/calvary) or armoured (battle tanks or artillery)

your average IG company won't have any tanks, the thanks are from another regiment, or atleast from an armour specific company.

[Blackrose]

I don't think wet navy proportions really apply to well to Titan Legions.....they generally seem hugely unbalanced and mostly rely primarily on Warlords, with a much lower number of Reavers supporting, and Warhounds performing scout, wolfpack and escort duties. It's hard to pin down Warhound numbers, but from Titanicus i would say it's less than Warlords, but more than Reavers.

 

The Legios really seem a bit uninterested in all this subtlety and picket line stuff......"MORE GUNS" seems the predominant school of thought.

And to be fair, if I had dozens of Warlord Titans at my disposal, I strongly suspect I'd have a similar mindset!

 

Though generally speaking they do often run with Skitarii contingents to deal with all that enemy infantry.....certainly in Titanicus at least even a Warlord was quite vulnerable to being swarmed.

what do you mean they don't worry about pickets? read mechanicus or titanicus, (they ryhme ;) ) and you'll see that's most of the reason for sending the hounds forward. if they didn't care about pickets, they'd just send their warlords and reavers in headlong to blow the snot out of everything, but they don't, the send the hounds in to pick a few off, and weaken a few, and keep the big 'un's flanks covered, which is the basic duty of a picket ship in a wet navy.

 

 

I didn't mean to imply that they didn't do it at all, but from the way I interpreted it the Warhounds are used more as raiders in a search and destroy role, rather than as escorts.

 

Sadly though, there simply isn't enough data to really know for sure. Even what we DO know is mostly the operating practices of a single Legio.....for all we know they all operate as differently as Marine chapters. Now we just need to bug GW for more Ad Mech stuff!

[minigun762]

Reavers and Warhounds are Age of Technology era war machines, while Warlords are Age of Strife era War machines and Emperors are Crusade era. Knights at first seemed to be post-heresy designs, yet recent HH books make them a much older technology.

 

So with that logic, it would appear that Warlords are the most numerous whereas the others are more rare designs (making the assumption that the materials needed to make an Emperor class far exceed the extra technology of them being built later.)

 

If this assumption is correct, it would also mean that most Titan tactics and formations would revolve around the number of Warlords present.

[OIC]

so i want to throw in my two cents...as im building and doing as much reserch on knight house holds as they have info for...

 

1-10 knights of verius class seems fiting... in the sence that there would be a leader (lord or senechal) then 3 of 3. This fits from a modern tactial pilots stand point ( i yacked with a feew resently) each having a lead and 2 'wingmen'. and mechanicus suported this formation. ( in the first 30 so pages of the book )

that said..i feel the by callingthem 'knights' and there role on the planet it would be fesable to run them in pairs... a knight and his "squire" wingman.

 

as for size of house holds..

 

i feel ( this is mostly a "lets think logicly" aproch) that a lord could conseavably have a few senechals under his ward..therefore expanitionaly expanding the size almost infanitly, BUT realisticly he would only have 2-3 senachals.

 

that said.. theres nothing saying that there is ONLY 1 knight house per planet..to the contray.and they would all answer to mars...

 

and as of old..its more likly that when mars calls for a muster or terif that each house hold whould send 2-3 while leaving the bulk to contue there mision of planetary defence. ( this is from traditional knightly records) Cause unless called to a crusade the house hold still has a duty to the land .

 

but this is just my two cents.

 

OIC

[Blackrose]

Reavers and Warhounds are Age of Technology era war machines, while Warlords are Age of Strife era War machines and Emperors are Crusade era. Knights at first seemed to be post-heresy designs, yet recent HH books make them a much older technology.

 

So with that logic, it would appear that Warlords are the most numerous whereas the others are more rare designs (making the assumption that the materials needed to make an Emperor class far exceed the extra technology of them being built later.)

 

If this assumption is correct, it would also mean that most Titan tactics and formations would revolve around the number of Warlords present.

 

 

This is more what I was trying to say, you just did it better :confused:

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

so i want to throw in my two cents...as im building and doing as much reserch on knight house holds as they have info for...

 

1-10 knights of verius class seems fiting... in the sence that there would be a leader (lord or senechal) then 3 of 3. This fits from a modern tactial pilots stand point ( i yacked with a feew resently) each having a lead and 2 'wingmen'. and mechanicus suported this formation. ( in the first 30 so pages of the book )

that said..i feel the by callingthem 'knights' and there role on the planet it would be fesable to run them in pairs... a knight and his "squire" wingman.

 

as for size of house holds..

 

i feel ( this is mostly a "lets think logicly" aproch) that a lord could conseavably have a few senechals under his ward..therefore expanitionaly expanding the size almost infanitly, BUT realisticly he would only have 2-3 senachals.

 

that said.. theres nothing saying that there is ONLY 1 knight house per planet..to the contray.and they would all answer to mars...

 

and as of old..its more likly that when mars calls for a muster or terif that each house hold whould send 2-3 while leaving the bulk to contue there mision of planetary defence. ( this is from traditional knightly records) Cause unless called to a crusade the house hold still has a duty to the land .

 

but this is just my two cents.

 

OIC

am i the only one who thinks that a 10 knight household max. is kind of low?

[jeffersonian000]

Warhounds are still cheaper and easier to build, while Reavers and Warlords fill the same roll with Warlords costing of marginally more in recourses and time to build of the older Reaver pattern hence the higher number of Warlords. As far as I know, all Emperors were built during the Crusades and none has been built since, hence their rare numbers.

 

Knights are in fact equivalent to a Planetary Defense Force (i.e., Imperial Guard or Tech Guard) yet are found on Argo-worlds that belong to the Adeptus Mechanicus as support world for nearby Forge-worlds. Knights are based on Eldar Exodite war machines yet build with Mechanicus technology, and are use primarily more herding mega-fauna with a secondary role of planetary defense. Knight Household are tithed to the Mechanicus much in the same way as Guard units are tithed to the Imperium, and form elite units within a Titan Legion's Skitarii support column, and mostly fulfill the same role as Warhounds at a lower cost in resources.

 

As such, I've found the distribution of Titan class units, from rarest to most common to be:

 

Emperors (very rare)

Reavers (uncommon)

Knights (uncommon)

Warlords (common)

Warhounds (common)

 

In point of fact, a modern Legio should have about as many Warhounds as it has Warlords with any Emperors taking the place of a Warlord, any Reavers replacing a Warlord or Warhound pairing, and any Knight Households taking the place of a pair of Warhounds.

 

Let's take the Legio Invictis as an example: No Emperors, 40+ Warlords, 6-12 Reavers, some 2 dozen Warhounds, and no Knights for approximately 70 Titans in total. A bit above average from what is mentioned in Epic, but by no means out of line. To this would also be added a Skitarii regiment of mechanized infantry and support vehicles to screen the main formation as well as flushing out enemy infantry and holding ground (Titans are a mobile force, after all).

 

SJ

[Blackrose]

Let's take the Legio Invictis as an example: No Emperors, 40+ Warlords, 6-12 Reavers, some 2 dozen Warhounds, and no Knights for approximately 70 Titans in total. A bit above average from what is mentioned in Epic, but by no means out of line. To this would also be added a Skitarii regiment of mechanized infantry and support vehicles to screen the main formation as well as flushing out enemy infantry and holding ground (Titans are a mobile force, after all).

 

SJ

 

 

I agree with your proportions, but the numbers are a little high. On Orestes, Invictas total strength was 49 titans operational, with another 8 down in their previous campaign. Everything else matches with what i've seen.

 

Interestingly, Titanicus suggests that Skitarii are actually part of the Titan Legion too, which i'm unsure about. Lau, the Skitarii commander for Invicta, was certainly considered part of the legion, and Tempestus members remarked on how different the "Invicta" Skitarii were to their own Legions troops. So i'm unsure as to whether these are actually part of the Legio, or a semi permanent attachment from the Legios home Forgeworld. Indeed, i'm not sure whether that would even make any difference.....I suspect most Legios are the embodiment of their home forge.

[Severus6]

Yes and yes,...the Knights Houses are not a part of the Legion unlike the Legion support troops and Skitarrii. It just seems that certain Knight Houses have stronger/habitual relationships with certain Titan Legions. I am not certain if that is based on previous history, location or a combination of both.

 

I also agree that a Knight Baron/Duke would have several Senechals underneath him with as many Knights underneath those sub commanders. The "Duke" may even have a few household/hearth Knights attached to him as well.

 

Severus6

[minigun762]

As such, I've found the distribution of Titan class units, from rarest to most common to be:

 

Emperors (very rare)

Reavers (uncommon)

Knights (uncommon)

Warlords (common)

Warhounds (common)

 

In point of fact, a modern Legio should have about as many Warhounds as it has Warlords with any Emperors taking the place of a Warlord, any Reavers replacing a Warlord or Warhound pairing, and any Knight Households taking the place of a pair of Warhounds.

 

I could agree with that, though it would alter the standard 1:2:4:8 assumption.

 

With the understanding that Emperor's are far and away the most elite/advanced/powerful Titan and therefore piloted by the appropriate Princep, would there be any ranking between those who piloted Warlords vs Reavers? Do you take power over rarity as being more important or are they equivalent.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

As such, I've found the distribution of Titan class units, from rarest to most common to be:

 

Emperors (very rare)

Reavers (uncommon)

Knights (uncommon)

Warlords (common)

Warhounds (common)

 

In point of fact, a modern Legio should have about as many Warhounds as it has Warlords with any Emperors taking the place of a Warlord, any Reavers replacing a Warlord or Warhound pairing, and any Knight Households taking the place of a pair of Warhounds.

 

I could agree with that, though it would alter the standard 1:2:4:8 assumption.

 

With the understanding that Emperor's are far and away the most elite/advanced/powerful Titan and therefore piloted by the appropriate Princep, would there be any ranking between those who piloted Warlords vs Reavers? Do you take power over rarity as being more important or are they equivalent.

that is a good question, and i'd say the answer lies w/ the legio's school of thought and military doctrine. in legio invicta it seems warlord princeps outrank the reaver princeps.

[Blackrose]

From what I gather, ranking between Princeps is done in terms of seniority....the longer they've been Princeps, the more sway they have. As a consequence, the Warlord princeps (who tend to only be given a Warlord to command after a long time proving themselves), naturally tend to be more senior and therefore have rank.

[jeffersonian000]

I concur with Blackrose. We've seen that the senior most Princep becomes the overall commander, and the Titan a Princep commands tends to be based on his or her seniority. I do remember a few passages that pointed out senior Princeps that preferred lighter Titans, yet in each case those Princeps were only in command of their respective detachment/squadron.

 

As to Knights, going back to their first appearance in Epic, Knight worlds are associated with specific Forge worlds, and any household fighting alongside a Legio will be fighting alongside the Legio their world is associated with just like the Skitarii that deploys with a Legio is generally from the same Forge world as that Legio.

 

SJ

[dark_claw]

in mechanicus the knight household that defends tha lava city numbers about 14 and as for imperators/emperors been built in the crusade era mortis legio have a new imperator that shocks the tempestus as there was no mention anywhere that a legio on mars had one at there disposal so i would assume that the STC is still around its just very rare indeed and not many places can build one as it also states when its destroyed that its main gun that is all that survives will be reclaimed and added to a new machine to serve the emperor again.

 

there is also a legio on terra that only has emperors and imperators :(

[Vodunius]

Personally I much prefer the original fluff on Emperor titans wherein they were exceedingly rare (if not unheard of) amongst the Military Orders of the Divisio Militaris not because they were rare or hard to manufacture, but because their primary function as mobile temples meant that they were relegated to the Missionary Orders of the Divisio Mandati in favour of dedicated combat titans.

[Blackrose]

Personally I much prefer the original fluff on Emperor titans wherein they were exceedingly rare (if not unheard of) amongst the Military Orders of the Divisio Militaris not because they were rare or hard to manufacture, but because their primary function as mobile temples meant that they were relegated to the Missionary Orders of the Divisio Mandati in favour of dedicated combat titans.

 

 

I'm quite inclined to accept this, since as combat titans they still require just as much support, or close to, as a standard titan. Virtually every instance in novels that has seen the deployment of an Imperator has also seen it's destruction or crippling by conventional forces with, if not ease, at the least a much lesser expenditure of material.

 

Aquila Ignis: Destroyed at the Lava City (ok, this one did take a lot, i'll grant, but given the lack of forces arranged against it, it STILL couldn't prevent Tempestus from destroying it's brethren)

Dies Irae: Had a Legio Mortis battlegroup supporting it, still died to a smaller Warlord and Reaver force of Legio Ignatum on Hydra Cordatus

Exemplis: Destroyed by Word Bearer Terminator ambush

Augmenautus Rex: Destroyed by Legio Invicta and Tempestus on Orestes

 

 

For this reason, they seem to perform primarily, as Vodunius states, as a figurehead and fire support, since despite their awesome size and power, they can and WILL die to an equal or even lesser tonnage of conventional troops or Titans.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

that would explain the temples on their backs.

how many does that temple/castle thing accommodate?

[Blackrose]

that would explain the temples on their backs.

how many does that temple/castle thing accommodate?

 

 

Not a clue, but it looks pretty sizeable. I recall in Epic the thing could hold most of a regiment of tech guard if you included the leg bastions as well. Certainly I would imagine 1000-2000 people in the cathedrals wouldn't be beyond the realms of possibility, depending on how many troops were crammed in.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

that would explain the temples on their backs.

how many does that temple/castle thing accommodate?

 

 

Not a clue, but it looks pretty sizeable. I recall in Epic the thing could hold most of a regiment of tech guard if you included the leg bastions as well. Certainly I would imagine 1000-2000 people in the cathedrals wouldn't be beyond the realms of possibility, depending on how many troops were crammed in.

i think 2000 might be a little on the high side...i was thinking maybe 500 in the cathedral/castle itself.

 

and about preheresy emperors not having the cathedral/castle, i would think they still would have, it would have worked as a mobile command fortress, post-heresy it just became a cathedral.

[minigun762]

I'm quite inclined to accept this, since as combat titans they still require just as much support, or close to, as a standard titan. Virtually every instance in novels that has seen the deployment of an Imperator has also seen it's destruction or crippling by conventional forces with, if not ease, at the least a much lesser expenditure of material.

 

Aquila Ignis: Destroyed at the Lava City (ok, this one did take a lot, i'll grant, but given the lack of forces arranged against it, it STILL couldn't prevent Tempestus from destroying it's brethren)

Dies Irae: Had a Legio Mortis battlegroup supporting it, still died to a smaller Warlord and Reaver force of Legio Ignatum on Hydra Cordatus

Exemplis: Destroyed by Word Bearer Terminator ambush

Augmenautus Rex: Destroyed by Legio Invicta and Tempestus on Orestes

 

For this reason, they seem to perform primarily, as Vodunius states, as a figurehead and fire support, since despite their awesome size and power, they can and WILL die to an equal or even lesser tonnage of conventional troops or Titans.

 

I wonder then if the Emperor has less durability in a straight up firefight then a Warlord (proportionately speaking).

[Blackrose]

I'm quite inclined to accept this, since as combat titans they still require just as much support, or close to, as a standard titan. Virtually every instance in novels that has seen the deployment of an Imperator has also seen it's destruction or crippling by conventional forces with, if not ease, at the least a much lesser expenditure of material.

 

Aquila Ignis: Destroyed at the Lava City (ok, this one did take a lot, i'll grant, but given the lack of forces arranged against it, it STILL couldn't prevent Tempestus from destroying it's brethren)

Dies Irae: Had a Legio Mortis battlegroup supporting it, still died to a smaller Warlord and Reaver force of Legio Ignatum on Hydra Cordatus

Exemplis: Destroyed by Word Bearer Terminator ambush

Augmenautus Rex: Destroyed by Legio Invicta and Tempestus on Orestes

 

For this reason, they seem to perform primarily, as Vodunius states, as a figurehead and fire support, since despite their awesome size and power, they can and WILL die to an equal or even lesser tonnage of conventional troops or Titans.

 

I wonder then if the Emperor has less durability in a straight up firefight then a Warlord (proportionately speaking).

 

 

I think it's a case of a) They are REALLY easy to hit, and :lol: While their shields are thick as anything, their armour doesn't seem to be THAT much thicker than a Warlord.....there's probably a limit on how much you can slab on before it becomes completely structurally unviable. Which would also account for 3 of the 4 above being killed from under their shields....lava, chainfist, and melta bombs respectively.

[minigun762]

that is a good question, and i'd say the answer lies w/ the legio's school of thought and military doctrine. in legio invicta it seems warlord princeps outrank the reaver princeps.

 

As I'm finishing up Titanicus, I can't help but notice that time and time again it seems like the Chaos forces use Reavers and Warhounds as the bulk of their army while the Loyalist Forces are almost all Warlords.

 

Any reason for this you think?

 

Also, and this could just be the nature of the story, but the overall skill level of the Chaos forces seems significantly lower then the Loyalist ones with a few exceptions.

[Blackrose]

that is a good question, and i'd say the answer lies w/ the legio's school of thought and military doctrine. in legio invicta it seems warlord princeps outrank the reaver princeps.

 

As I'm finishing up Titanicus, I can't help but notice that time and time again it seems like the Chaos forces use Reavers and Warhounds as the bulk of their army while the Loyalist Forces are almost all Warlords.

 

Any reason for this you think?

 

Also, and this could just be the nature of the story, but the overall skill level of the Chaos forces seems significantly lower then the Loyalist ones with a few exceptions.

 

 

Well, I know Reavers are the oldest Titans, so it's possible the Chaos Legions have a much higher proportion since they are mostly more ancient. Other than that.....no idea. Possibly the forgeworlds in the Eye are setup more for production of faster raiding models than Warlords?

 

As for the skill level difference, yep, it's pretty noticeable. Mostly a case of making the heroes more heroic I suspect, since Invicta also seems noticeably more skilled than Tempestus, who primarily amble around getting killed a lot, while Invicta does all the winning.

[TheRealAxel]

Sorry to barge in on the discussion, but I've been reading for awhile and can't abide my silence any longer... The information below is sourced from the quasi-official AMTL army list for Epic:40k, which you can download at http://www.tacticalwargames.net/forums/ind...ST;f=22;t=16666 and my background consciousness of "40k stuff".

 

A few points that I consider pertinent to the discussion:

- The AMTL (and other 40k organisations) cannot be compared to modern day military formations. You're forgetting that even the people that "understand" machines pray to their ammunition for accuracy...

- Each Titan has a machine spirit that is, if I remember correctly, very strong willed.

 

Regarding the different Titan chassis classes (copied from the link above):

Warhound Titans

The Warhound Titan is not the mainstay of the War Gryphons Titan Legion, but they are still common enough that almost all Titan Battlegroups will include several Warhound Titans. Some Legions such as the Legio Ignatum and the Legio

Tempestor are known to make much more extensive use of Warhound class Titans, but even they will rarely take to the

field in open battle without support of their Battle class brethren.

It is only in relatively small scale wars like the Taros Campaign or the Keeler Intervention where Warhound class Titans will be the largest Mechanicus Engines. During the Keeler Intervention, the War Gryphons Titan Legion fielded a force of nineteen Warhound class Titans, and while each Engine was generally seconded to assist other

Imperial forces, on day 113 of the Intervention twelve Warhound Titans were brought together to act as the

spearhead for an armoured push that ultimately broke the back of the rebel forces.

 

Reaver Titans

The Reaver Titan is the oldest design of Titan (Perhaps even the oldest class of machine) currently in regular and widespread military service within the Imperium. The arcane construction techniques necessary for its creation

mean that it takes considerably more time to construct a Reaver class Titan than either a Warhound or a Warlord Titan.

As a result, the Reaver has fallen out of favour with many of the younger Legions, which have relegated the Reaver into

mostly supporting roles, where each ancient relic-machine is generally safe from reprisal attacks. Understandably, such

younger Legions treat their Reaver Titans more as mobile shrines than pure war engines.

The War Gryphons Legion was a long-established Titan Legion however, and as a consequence had a good number of

Reaver Titans before the catastrophic final days of their parent Forgeworld ; At least fourty-five Reaver Titans are known to have been on the planet at the time of the Tyranid invasion, and data packets indicate that the Reaver class Titan Rex

Imperatus that was the last remaining active Gryphonne Engine to fall in combat with the Tyranid menace, on the twentieth day of the war.

 

Warlord Titans

Warlord Titans are the most common Titan in most Titan Legions. Striding across the battlefields from a height of more

than thirty metres, the Warlord Titan is the ultimate icon of the Imperial Titan Legions, instantly recognizable to the foes of

the Imperium galaxy-wide. Able to mount a vast variety of heavy weaponry to suit any kind of battle engagement, the Warlord Titan can be custom-armed to fight any foe. The War for Gryphonne IV saw the full might of the Warlord

Titans of the Legio Gryphonnicus deployed to fight the Tyranid menace; More than fifty Warlord class Titans stepped from

their cathedral-hangers on the first day of the conflict, and from then on did not rest until they were all laid low by the

rampaging Xenos. Deus Ferrusi, a Warlord Titan armed entirely with Plasma weaponry, was the last Warlord class Titan to fall, locked in battle with five Hierophant Bio Titans.