% Composition of Titan Legions

[jeffersonian000]

For warships, 2-3 vessels of the same class are called a division, multiple divisions form a squadron, multiple squadrons from a task force, with multiple task forces forming a fleet.

 

In this case, pairs and threes could be considered divisions of a squadron, while a group of squadrons from one of many task forces in a Legion.

 

SJ

[minigun762]

squadron of Titans has a nice ring to it I must say.

[jimbo1701]

Bit of a Noob on the AdMech boards but find this thread interesting. As far as I was aware (sold my copy of titan legions last year) the titans were organised into 3 classes - is this still correct? i.e.

 

Emperor class titans (imperator/warmonger)

Battle class titans (Warlord/reaver)

Scout class titans (warhound)

 

A lot of people are referring to warlord/reavers classes alongside emperor class - has the nomenclature changed over the years or is the above still true?

[minigun762]

Bit of a Noob on the AdMech boards but find this thread interesting. As far as I was aware (sold my copy of titan legions last year) the titans were organised into 3 classes - is this still correct? i.e.

 

Emperor class titans (imperator/warmonger)

Battle class titans (Warlord/reaver)

Scout class titans (warhound)

 

A lot of people are referring to warlord/reavers classes alongside emperor class - has the nomenclature changed over the years or is the above still true?

 

No thats still true to the best of my knowledge.

There has been some discussion about whether or not all Legions would have access to Emperor class Titans (my personal thought is no) and if not, what would be an equivalent amount of Warlords.

[jeffersonian000]

Back before the Emperor-class was introduced as a playable piece in Epic, there was mention of a non-Warlord main battle titan called a Warmonger which was to the Warlord as a Warlord was to a Reaver. After the release of the Emperor-class, however, the Warmonger became an anti-titan Emperor variant with the Imperator as the main battle titan variant.

 

People seem to remember that another battle titan existed; for a brief time, that titan was the Warmonger.

 

SJ

[Cpt Stahl]

Back before the Emperor-class was introduced as a playable piece in Epic, there was mention of a non-Warlord main battle titan called a Warmonger which was to the Warlord as a Warlord was to a Reaver. After the release of the Emperor-class, however, the Warmonger became an anti-titan Emperor variant with the Imperator as the main battle titan variant.

 

People seem to remember that another battle titan existed; for a brief time, that titan was the Warmonger.

 

SJ

 

Yup correct ! Emperor class titans include Emperor Titans and Warmonger titans (the Ordo Sinister has 12 Emperor class titans !).

 

link to this forgotten Titan (was never able to get one, always wondered if GW sold some, and apparently yes ) :

 

Warmonger English, and for more pics : Warmonger German.

 

Wish I could have one, or that GW will release them in the future.

 

Cpt Stahl.

[jeffersonian000]

Yep. And thankfully, GW has provided us with rules (all be it, bad ones) for the Emperor-class, which allows for a Warmonger pattern via weapon selection:

 

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_Custom...attle_Titan.pdf

 

SJ

[minigun762]

Yep. And thankfully, GW has provided us with rules (all be it, bad ones) for the Emperor-class, which allows for a Warmonger pattern via weapon selection:

 

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_Custom...attle_Titan.pdf

 

SJ

 

Yeah not a huge fan of those rules. 26 SD shots (8 of which are 7") for 4000 points is far and away the most cost effective way to spam Destroyer weapons.

[minigun762]

Look what I found over at wh40k lexicanum. I bolded the important part.

 

The Military Orders

The Orders or Legions of the Divisio Militaris (or more simply the Military Orders) are the main military forces of the Collegia, and each, as self-sufficient units, includes its own ground combat troops and support staff in addition to its Titans.

 

Each Legion is based on its own forge world - most forge worlds having one (or in some cases several) Titan Legions.

 

Although their home forge worlds are technically their bases, the Legions are actually stationed throughout the galaxy, guarding vulnerable locations across the Imperium. Many Legions are stationed near the Eye of Terror, ready to combat their Chaotic counterparts.

 

At full strength, a Legion typically numbers 16 Titans, however this figure varies greatly in practice. Battle losses can take centuries to replace, as the construction of a new Titan is a long and laborious process. The Warlord is the most commonly found class while the Imperator is by far the most formidable but an increasingly rare sight on battlefields. Though there have been rumors of a stronger class that existed during the Great Crusade, possably the Apocalypse class?

 

Titan Legions are deployed only in the most vital campaigns and on battlefields that will allow them the room to manoeuvre and unleash the full power of their colossal weaponry.

[jeffersonian000]

Interesting, and new to me. I've never heard mention of an Apocalypse class Titan; maybe somewhere between an Emperor and Warlord in armament/capability?

 

SJ

[Corpse.]

If only they supplied fair rules for titans without having the "no brainer titan to pick" just like someone who likes sorcerers and possessed chaos marines in fluff, but cant play them effectively on the table. I would don more titans beyond the casual warhounds if they made the larger ones more viable rules-wise.

 

 

A titan legion never runs in alone from what I know except for the scouts. All speed related of course, I would imagine orbiting craft and aircraft/spacecraft/dropships/land speeders doing all the scouting for a larger titan group instead of the scout class. So it baffles me that they even have a "Scout titan" range to begin with. Autonomous even in pre-heresy to be standalone forces even with skitarii, they still feel the need to have the term scout titan. I would rather call them combat titans, then add the whole battle titan, war titan thing. (Even skirmish titan would be better)

 

A ideal force would in fact be a bunch of scout walkers as small as sentinels, followed by their big brother "so called scout titans" and then the artillery titans lumbering behind given targets to shoot up/support their own from beyond the mountains and skyscrapers. (Then again the baneblade variants with artillery weapons could fulfill the same tasks to a degree)

 

Still, just tosses me off a bit. Coming from a fella who played too much mechwarrior.

[minigun762]

I wonder if its because non-Titan elements are either too slow or too easily killed to be relied upon.

 

Or maybe its just that natural bias of Princeps that you can't really trust someone who isn't also in a Titan.

 

In that same article, they talked about the Feral Titans (basically Chaos Warhounds) and something popped up that I liked.

As with the Imperial Warhound, they excel in urban environments. Their relative speed and agility enables them to fulfill a similar scouting role to their imperial counterpart, but as is the nature of chaos, they also have a tendency to act like pack hunters, ruthlessly picking off weaker targets.

The idea of Warhounds being used in packs (not just pairs but multiple) using hit and run tactics against the larger Titans seems very fitting and a very intelligent use of their speed and smaller size.

[dark_claw]

i agree warhounds in a pack makes more sence as you get more weapons and more targets so the larger has to pick its targets very carefully or be brought down by the pack, but i also agree they release rules for warlords and imperators in 40k but there are no models or plans to make your own and there are no model companies out there that produce large scale robots so what are you to do if you want a tatan legion? as for them numbering only 16 tempestus has way more in mechanicum they used 10 i believe and they refer to that as a small part as the bulk is out in the crusade to id think they have about 40+ in that legion then

[Corpse.]

i also agree they release rules for warlords and imperators in 40k but there are no models or plans to make your own and there are no model companies out there that produce large scale robots so what are you to do if you want a tatan legion? as for them numbering only 16 tempestus has way more in mechanicum they used 10 i believe and they refer to that as a small part as the bulk is out in the crusade to id think they have about 40+ in that legion then

 

If they ever made models for those rules they would have to literally be bought in pieces. Cost over 2000 dollars american (900 euro/pounds iirc?) and take well over 200 hours to paint to a eavy metal scale (A guess, thats what 10-ish baneblades take in time). And it also means if anyone made their own, they could have people tell them no, go buy a GW model to represent it. Letting jerks who play Apocalypse large scale to have power over such a thing. In apoc, if one player says no to an optional rule, its refused, even if there are 20+ players in the game. You cant say no to a WYSIWYG painted titan of super large scale thats roughly the size it needs to be, when GW has no models that can be "copied".

[dark_claw]

oh i have to agree there but rememebr people make scratch built warhounds and reavers and people let them use them any reasonable player wont have a problem, i have an armorcast reaver and 3 warhounds technically there not GW or FW but where ever they go they get action as people want to play against them :P and im going to scratch build and cast a warlord for my own use as im building a titan legion im doing 2 lol new style and old. the FW reaver is £391 for the body and about £50 per weapon a warlord if they did one i think body would be about £550 and arms about £60 as it needs 2 and then carapace weapons at about £40 that would make one about £750 which i would not mind paying lol well my wife as she buys me all my titans and super heavy tanks :)

 

i think its just a shame to have rules and no models lolwarhounds are easy to proxy you can buy an ed 209 kit for about £40 and convert it as its legs and body is a simular shape all you have to do is convert arms and add a head and maybe a top plate and there you are.

 

i wish dreamforge where still around

[Blackrose]

Look what I found over at wh40k lexicanum. I bolded the important part.

 

 

At full strength, a Legion typically numbers 16 Titans,

Titan Legions are deployed only in the most vital campaigns and on battlefields that will allow them the room to manoeuvre and unleash the full power of their colossal weaponry.

 

 

However, Titanicus and mechanicus both contradict these numbers to a huge extent. Legio Invicta was what....49 engines on Orestes, primarily Warlords? And Tempestus was 30ish, and that was with a lot of their strength deployed elsewhere in the Sabbat Worlds.

The numbers in Mechanicus also seem quite a bit higher too.

 

In addition, legio Destructor, the largest Legion, has long been confirmed to consist of over 100 titans...even Lexicanum (which I consider a pretty weak source tbh), backs this up with:

"The Legio Destructor ("Steel Beasts") is probably the largest Legion of the Collegia Titanica, comprising over a hundred Titans of all classes. This is not surprising since Accatran, the Forge World it defends, lies only a hundred light years from the Eye of Terror and on the edge of the Ork empires of Charadon and the Wheel of Fire. Led by their eccentric Grand Master Thaedius Wilson, Legio Destructor have fought off numerous Waaaghs and eruptions of Chaos from the Eye of Terror."

 

 

 

So no, I have absolutely no doubt that a Legion is FAR more than 16 engines.

 

 

 

 

Just realised this was a bit of necromancy....sorry, but it's an interesting discussion and I only just arrived :lol:

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

this may have been stated some where before, but i didn't want to read through all 3 pages....

 

 

the second poster mentioned wet-navy pairings and what not, so i'll compare the titans to WWII warships.

 

knights-minesweeper, WWI destroyers

warhounds- destroyers

reavers- light-hvy cruisers (depending on weapon loadout)

warlords-battleships

emperor/imperator-bismark/yamato class battleships.

 

if you think of them like that that should help you figure things out a bit.

 

edit

guess i should have read the whole first page. :wacko:

 

any way, i based my suggestions not just on size and rarity, but on armament as well.

 

a reaver is well armed, and depending on the loadout, can be super powerful (in a titan perspective)

while a warlord will always be bristling with titanic weapons, and a warhound will only fit two smaller weapons

 

and i would like to mention page 123 of titanicus, they have 15 warlords together, they didn't mention any reavers or warhounds. (i don't think legio invicta has any knights with them.)

[satanaka]

The way I've always understood it was the common breakdown was always 2:1.

 

Two Warhounds for every Reaver

 

Two Reavers for every Warlord

 

Two Warlords for every Imperator.

 

So using that premise, to field an Imperator, you'd need 2 Warlords, 4 Reavers, and 8 Warhounds as a picket.

[Octavulg]

Except Reavers are rarer than Warlords...

[minigun762]

Except Reavers are rarer than Warlords...

 

Aren't they used differently as well? More in a direct fire support role then leading assaults.

 

Again using the Wet Navy example, I would assume they'd be more like Guided Missile Destroyers/Cruisers. More then sufficient by themselves against anything that isn't a legitimate warship, but taking on a support role once the big boys appear.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Except Reavers are rarer than Warlords...

 

Aren't they used differently as well? More in a direct fire support role then leading assaults.

 

Again using the Wet Navy example, I would assume they'd be more like Guided Missile Destroyers/Cruisers. More then sufficient by themselves against anything that isn't a legitimate warship, but taking on a support role once the big boys appear.

a bit off topic, but...in a modern wet-navy is there really anything bigger than a guided missile cruiser any more? there are new 'assault battleship' (different designation, but same approx. size and tonnage) that carry choppers and troops by the but load. (USS New York ((the newest one)) as well as the french ship the russians are thinking about buying)

 

back on topic, i don't really think anything in the 40k universe can accurately be compared to modern military. WWII and before would be the best way to compare 40k stuff to real familiar things.

[jeffersonian000]

Reavers and Warhounds are Age of Technology era war machines, while Warlords are Age of Strife era War machines and Emperors are Crusade era. Knights at first seemed to be post-heresy designs, yet recent HH books make them a much older technology.

 

That said, we know Knights tend to be fielded in households of 3-10, Warhounds are fielded in either pairs or packs make up of pairings, Reavers (I'm pretty sure, yet don't remember from where) are fielded in groups of three, Warlords tend to be fielded as singles or pairs, and Emperors are pretty much singles. I liken them to wet-navy types by role:

 

Knights = Destroyers (household = flotilla)

Warhounds = Light Cruisers (detachments of 2, squadrons of up to 8)

Reavers = Heavy Cruisers/Battlecruisers (detachments of 2, squadrons of up to 8)

Warlords = Battleships/Dreadnoughts (detachments of 2, squadrons of up to 8)

Emperors = Superdreadnoughts (squadrons of up to 2)

 

Of course, in the grim dark of the 41st millennium, nothing I've posted has much bearing other than as a thought exercise.

 

SJ

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Reavers and Warhounds are Age of Technology era war machines, while Warlords are Age of Strife era War machines and Emperors are Crusade era. Knights at first seemed to be post-heresy designs, yet recent HH books make them a much older technology.

 

That said, we know Knights tend to be fielded in households of 3-10, Warhounds are fielded in either pairs or packs make up of pairings, Reavers (I'm pretty sure, yet don't remember from where) are fielded in groups of three, Warlords tend to be fielded as singles or pairs, and Emperors are pretty much singles. I liken them to wet-navy types by role:

 

Knights = Destroyers (household = flotilla)

Warhounds = Light Cruisers (detachments of 2, squadrons of up to 8)

Reavers = Heavy Cruisers/Battlecruisers (detachments of 2, squadrons of up to 8)

Warlords = Battleships/Dreadnoughts (detachments of 2, squadrons of up to 8)

Emperors = Superdreadnoughts (squadrons of up to 2)

 

Of course, in the grim dark of the 41st millennium, nothing I've posted has much bearing other than as a thought exercise.

 

SJ

a couple posts up i did my own real world comparisons. (unfortunately we don't have anything to actually compare an emperor/imperator to...or maybe we're lucky.)

[Blackrose]

I don't think wet navy proportions really apply to well to Titan Legions.....they generally seem hugely unbalanced and mostly rely primarily on Warlords, with a much lower number of Reavers supporting, and Warhounds performing scout, wolfpack and escort duties. It's hard to pin down Warhound numbers, but from Titanicus i would say it's less than Warlords, but more than Reavers.

 

The Legios really seem a bit uninterested in all this subtlety and picket line stuff......"MORE GUNS" seems the predominant school of thought.

And to be fair, if I had dozens of Warlord Titans at my disposal, I strongly suspect I'd have a similar mindset!

 

Though generally speaking they do often run with Skitarii contingents to deal with all that enemy infantry.....certainly in Titanicus at least even a Warlord was quite vulnerable to being swarmed.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

I don't think wet navy proportions really apply to well to Titan Legions.....they generally seem hugely unbalanced and mostly rely primarily on Warlords, with a much lower number of Reavers supporting, and Warhounds performing scout, wolfpack and escort duties. It's hard to pin down Warhound numbers, but from Titanicus i would say it's less than Warlords, but more than Reavers.

 

The Legios really seem a bit uninterested in all this subtlety and picket line stuff......"MORE GUNS" seems the predominant school of thought.

And to be fair, if I had dozens of Warlord Titans at my disposal, I strongly suspect I'd have a similar mindset!

 

Though generally speaking they do often run with Skitarii contingents to deal with all that enemy infantry.....certainly in Titanicus at least even a Warlord was quite vulnerable to being swarmed.

what do you mean they don't worry about pickets? read mechanicus or titanicus, (they ryhme ^_^ ) and you'll see that's most of the reason for sending the hounds forward. if they didn't care about pickets, they'd just send their warlords and reavers in headlong to blow the snot out of everything, but they don't, the send the hounds in to pick a few off, and weaken a few, and keep the big 'un's flanks covered, which is the basic duty of a picket ship in a wet navy.