Death Heads V5.0

[Ferrus Manus]

It isn't that it's not an interesting read, it's more that it needs to be more believable. The whys behind Howl's actions need to better explained.

[Donkey Kong]

I see, under which circumstances would it be believable?

Currently, Howl and Thussaud were close friends. Would it be better if say, Howl was a newer Captain? Or do you have suggestions?

[Donkey Kong]

Another Captain I have in mind is Jan Lo.

Jan is one of the more radical captains in the Death Heads. I don't know whether or not I want him to be Klysian. Another option would be for him to be a rescued child on a Space Hulk or even a child from a more feral world bordering closer to the Maelstrom or Ork Empires. He enjoys bike assaults and I imagine him to be one of the more devout Captains.

 

I feel that he would side with Thussaud, feeling that he is an Astartes for simply having the will to continue fighting for the Imperium, regardless of his tainted body, his mind is pure.

 

Lo might also fit the suggested Collector, unless someone else proposes another. For those who don't know, the Collector is basically a character a few people thought would be cool, simply he is a Death Head who takes specific trophies, throwing away things he sees as unsuitable or even something that he's not looking for at that exact moment in time. The Collector would have a valuable (and possibly extensive) horde, I'd expect him to collect rarer things like Eldar soul stones ('cause they're pwetty), Ork skulls of certain size and teeth of certain color (I kid with the latter, but it's still funny) and Chapter relics the Techmarines and Chaplains aren't all that interested in.

 

Opinions?

[Donkey Kong]

no comments?

[GhostLegion]

"We are fear incarnate!"

Hmmm....I get a sense of Night Lords here...

 

As homage to the Silver Skulls

I would change "as" to "in." Seems to sound better to me, though it does move the sentance into the passive voice....

 

krake

As a point of order, I think when you use "krake" you mean Kraken. As such, I would think it best to shift to using the term Kraken. The issue is the kraken is a mythological sea beast. Krake seems to be a German term for kraken. THough I really cannot see this having too much bearing on the overall piece, I keep blinking at "krake" and wanting to add the "n" at the end of it. May just be me though....

 

Upon reemerging into real space two Terran years later, Thussaud and his Company were corrupted by the powers of the warp.

I know what youre saying here, but mechanically it sounds wrong. I think you need to break this sentance apart and rewrite it... Maybe something like "Thussaud and his Company reemerged two Terran years later, twisted and corrupted by the powers of the warp"

 

Death Crusade

hmm...evocative...I suspect "penetent(sp?) crusade" may be more accurate in theme however. official fluff has numerous examples of penetent crusades ending in the death of those sent out...apparently this is an acceptable outcome.

 

Following this, the council decided on the necessity of purging the False Captain Thussaud.

Again, mechanics of the sentance breaks the flow of the read... There are several of these sentances throughout the article, I rather suspect it would help you out to hunt them down and fix them....

 

All in all, I rather like the section on "the tainted," and think this creates a thematic structure you can use in multiple places throughout the chapter and your writing....

 

K

lysium borders on the Maelstrom,

for a planet, this sounds funny. for a region it would work, but a planet is a singular location, a system could be the same way depending on how it is placed in a sentance. Here, I think I would suggest modifying it to be something like "rests on the border of," or "lays on the border of," or somesuch. Style points really...but anyway...

 

A water world, Klysium's surface was once covered in enormous mountain ranges and plateaus with beautiful stone cities crafted into their sides and atop their peaks. Artistry remains a treasured talent on the world, often craftsmen erect new structures and statues to replace the old.

Random thought....did you think about tying this into ancient Grecian (or Minoan) cultural structures? Might provide you some interesting research or additional twists to add to the chapter.... Yes I realize other chapters have this (Iron Snakes have the makings of it for one), but it does not make the idea any less valid for you....

 

 

When Klysium was first discovered by the Imperium during the Great Crusade, the nobility was ecstatic to be reunited with Terra. Adeptus Mechanicus studies revealed the world had developed many valuable ores and crystals, thousands of mining drills were imported from various forge worlds and placed in the Klysian canyons operated by adepts and Klysians alike. Trade with Forge Worlds brought greater riches to Klysium, alongside new defensive weapons for the massive cities. While most ores were exported, a generous portion of valuable metals found their way into local hands. Many of the great pieces created during the Great Crusade still remain in the world’s royal houses.

 

During the Horus Heresy, Klysium acted as a buffer against traitor Mechanicus and Army forces. A fleet of ships and millions of soldiers poured out from the warp and descended upon the world. Thousands died within the first hours of battle, and the once glorious cities were turned into fields of war. In a desperate attempt to achieve victory, all available ordnance was directed at the world's poles with the intention of destroying them to submerge the enemy. The task was done, and monumental tides washed down the Klysian canyons, drowning men and machines, loyalist and traitor alike. All but the highest cities were washed away or covered and priceless treasures were swept out and onto the sea floors or sealed off in the destroyed cities.

I am not really certain what your intentions are with this section... Sure, it is interesting for world background, but what bearing does it have with the chapter. You had a good flow through "the tainted" to the initial descriptions of the homeworld, but you lost me here...

 

When the Death Heads first happened upon the world, Klysium was in a conflict End the sentance here. Pick up another with the Orks and what they were doing with the Orks. A sizable Waaagh had made landfallthought you said it was a water world? land? wouldnt this be submerged? islands maybe? again the grecian/minoan theme comes to mind, and once more, cities were aflame. What struck Chapter Master Denarious the most, however, was the strength of body and mind of the Klysian warriors.

 

These things were the ones that jump at me on your homeworld section. the small area you discuss recruiting and class structure works alright and does not distract much from the reading.

 

Combat Doctrine

O

n the battlefield, the Death Heads number amongst the most barbarous Chapters in the Imperium. The Chapter's first specialty, striking fear in of the enemy, remains a valued tactic.

Again, I am looking for Night Lords...or World Eaters now... Sure marines strike fear into their enemies, but emphasizing this as a part of chapter doctrine seems closer to Chaos. Maybe there is a larger effect on the chapter from the tainted than just the few lost....

 

where the Death Heads has bested

Have....have bested... minor grammar hit there.

 

Chapter Organization

U

nlike a majority of Roboute Gulliman's kin, the Death Heads deviate from the Codex Astartes in their organization.

woooo! They dont like the primarch's writing? mmm...pepper to season the chapter a little bit here. THough I do like this little twist, I do have to blink at it as the vast majority of this primarch's spawn seem to view the codex as law...or maybe this is just the perception official fluff has given me or has grown in me over the years....

 

 

The Death Heads' Minuo functions as standard Chapter's Master of Recruits.

Minor grammar hit. Otherwise, the only issue I have here is at first I thought the Minuo was a personal name, not a title. It may help to ensure the differentiation of this as a title given to a veteran, not his actual name. Alternatively, you could use it in the same way Cypher is used in the Horus Heresy novels....a title (i.e. Lord Minuo) which is passed to a marine, thereby eliminating his previous name in favor of the title.

 

 

Neophytes are trained on Klysium until they're deemed both physically and mentally fit by the present apothecary and their mentor, the Minuo. Upon first joining the Battle Companies, neophytes operate as scouts under the command of a veteran sergeant. These squads are often armed for close combat, and as a result suffer high fatality rates. Fortunately, the Chapter's consistent recruitment prevents any blow from seriously affecting the Chapter's strength. Contrary to the Codex Astartes, the Death Heads have a different method of advancement. Initiates begin in the Assault Squads, then progress to the the Devastator Squads and, in turn, the Tactical Squads. Neophytes and Initiates stay with their Company until they join the First Company or fall in battle.

almost feels like a 'fluff justifies rules' section here. I am not sure I would use it in the way you have written, but hey...just an opinion...

 

Chaplains are the Chapter's eyes, ever watching for signs of deceit amongst their brother Astartes. Following the introduction of taking trophies from fallen foes, the Death Heads Chaplains have gained a new responsibility. They hold honor duels for the treasures, watching over them to ensure no brother is killed needlessly. Following the Codex Astartes, the Death Heads Chaplains wear the black plate and skull helmet of their office. Each Chaplain has a unique suit of power armor and helm, imitating the skulls of men and ferocious beasts.

I would suggest here that you add an apostrophe after "Death Heads." You are saying 'the chaplains of the death heads chapter' when you say "Death Heads Chaplains." As such, "Death Heads" is possessive, and requires an apostrophe after the 's' as the name is plural. At least that's what I remember from grammar school....

 

Klysium's wounds from the Horus Heresy, wounds which leave the world scarred to this very day, have left only bitter memories in the hearts of the Death Heads.

:( Of all I have seen in the article so far, this hits me like an eyeball kick (yes...you finally get hit by the dread Turkey City Lexicon). I think I know where you are going here, but it hits like a non-sequiter (i know i spelled that wrong, but anyway). I recommend either repositioning this, rewriting it, or getting rid of it....

 

 

 

All in all, not bad. It makes for a good read and establishes the chapter in the reader's mind. The concept of the tainted adds a much needed hit of character to the chapter that I think you could explore more. Similarly, the homeworld offers opportunities that I think you are missing, or glossing over. In some ways it almost feels like you have not fully developed the idea for yourself, though what you have come up with appears pretty solid...as far as structure goes. To be blunt as a bat, I am glad you posted this as a complete idea...the way you have it pulled together it reads pretty smoothly.

 

Quickly glancing through some of the other replies and your continuations I want to recommend you focus less on characters and focus more on character. The character of a chapter is the driving force behind the IA articles. If your chapter does not have character, or the character is subsumed to the characters, you will tend to lose reader interest in the chapter and gain it in the personalities you have developed. This is not always a bad thing in fiction, but in an IA, it is deffinately not helpful.

 

Again...these are all my opinions and should be taken with a grain of salt...

[Donkey Kong]

Thanks, GL ! I'll be sure to edit it all soon.

 

Sure marines strike fear into their enemies, but emphasizing this as a part of chapter doctrine seems closer to Chaos. Maybe there is a larger effect on the chapter from the tainted than just the few lost....

 

I'm unsure what you mean by this?

 

I am not really certain what your intentions are with this section... Sure, it is interesting for world background, but what bearing does it have with the chapter. You had a good flow through "the tainted" to the initial descriptions of the homeworld, but you lost me here...

 

It's more or less an idea of how dedicated the populace is to basically destroy their world to win it for the Emperor. I figure nuking yourself to hell and back isn't exactly original anymore.

 

The concept of the tainted adds a much needed hit of character to the chapter that I think you could explore more. Similarly, the homeworld offers opportunities that I think you are missing, or glossing over. In some ways it almost feels like you have not fully developed the idea for yourself

 

I'm surprised how accurate that is. I know it's a bit much to ask, but is there anything that you'd suggest to be added to these sections?

 

As for the characters, I'll be focusing more on the IA for now, but basically I want to live up to some of the bigger IAs that have fleshed out their captains, companies and all that.

[GhostLegion]

Sure marines strike fear into their enemies, but emphasizing this as a part of chapter doctrine seems closer to Chaos. Maybe there is a larger effect on the chapter from the tainted than just the few lost....

 

I'm unsure what you mean by this?

Um....Night Lords for instance....

 

The concept of the tainted adds a much needed hit of character to the chapter that I think you could explore more. Similarly, the homeworld offers opportunities that I think you are missing, or glossing over. In some ways it almost feels like you have not fully developed the idea for yourself

 

I'm surprised how accurate that is. I know it's a bit much to ask, but is there anything that you'd suggest to be added to these sections?

Well...I may have to think about this some and see what I can come up with for you. But then, I am also banging my head agaisnt my own chapter again, so sorry, but youre stuck on the back burner for additional ideas my friend...

 

As for the characters, I'll be focusing more on the IA for now, but basically I want to live up to some of the bigger IAs that have fleshed out their captains, companies and all that.

 

You dive into characters all you want....after you get the main body of the chapter fleshed out to your satisfaction. Characters have a lot to add to a chapter as we all know... However, you only want to work on the most important characters...not every character... your chapter has to offer. Using myself as an example (yes tooting my own horn), I have my chapter master named, modeled, and painted...but I do not have him written up. Why? Well right now he is not as important a character as Dragoman Antal, who is seen in my "sacrifice of self" sidebar. This use gives character to both the chapter and an individual. Things like that hit my fancy more than a list of dramatis personae...which you tend to get into .... Just a thought...

[Donkey Kong]

Edits have been made to the IA.

 

GL , what I mean is more in relation to:

 

Maybe there is a larger effect on the chapter from the tainted than just the few lost....

 

I'm just curious what you mean by it, like a larger portion of the Chapter has been influenced by Chaos?

 

Please comment,

 

KHK

[GhostLegion]

Edits have been made to the IA.

 

GL , what I mean is more in relation to:

 

Maybe there is a larger effect on the chapter from the tainted than just the few lost....

 

I'm just curious what you mean by it, like a larger portion of the Chapter has been influenced by Chaos?

 

Please comment,

 

KHK

What I mean is exactly what you pulled out as a quote there. Maybe there is a larger effect on the chapter... THink about it some. What other issues, effects, outcomes, in short or long term, could result from this problem.... Opportunities abound...

[Donkey Kong]

Narrick already sees himself as the hammer of judgment and the best warrior in the Chapter. He's fairly vain and the only thing keeping him out of Slaanesh's hands is loyalty to his other brothers, superiors and hatred of Thussaud and his mutation.

 

Is that what you're talking about?

Edited September 25, 2009 by KingHongKong

[Donkey Kong]

I would love to get opinions on the IA as it currently stands.

 

Also, would anyone be willing to suggest where to place the Piratate? The Piratate is a title for the Master of the Honor Guard.

[Donkey Kong]

The IA has been edited, The Tainted section is under reconstruction. Criticism welcome, thanks,

 

KHK

[Donkey Kong]

Please comment, criticize or suggest anything.

 

KHK

[Donkey Kong]

The new Tainted section:

 

Second Company Captain Strabo Thussaud was lost to the warp following his victory in the Gehenna Campaign. A proud and capable Astartes, Thussaud was beloved by many in the Chapter and renown for his ability to command and fighting prowess. Thussaud and his Company reemerged two Terran years later, twisted and corrupted by the powers of the Immaterium. Many had attempted to fight their tainted bodies by replacing their tampered limbs with bionics. Their efforts were in vain. His battle brothers were left mutated and metal husks, a shame to their Chapter, their Company, their Emperor and themselves.

 

Thussaud appeared before Klysium. His ship was boarded by the present Captain and his friend, Filo Howl of the Fourth Company. A compassionate Astartes, Howl was close to his battle brothers and like Thussaud, beloved by all, though for a different reason. He was benelovent and kind to his battle brothers, and he fought with the fervor of their most zealous brothers. Thussaud and Howl both knew the consequences if he remained here to be judged by the rest of the Chapter. A proud Astartes, Thussaud was reduced to less than a shadow of his former self, begging Howl to be allowed to leave with his brothers in a new vessel.

 

Reluctantly, Howl complied. He gave Thussad a recently repaired Strike Cruiser, Pandora. He could not bear the though of being responsible for the execution of a single Astartes, let alone a company of his fellow Death Heads. Thussaud and his Tainted Company flew off into the Ork Empires surrounding the Maelstrom, with the sole intention of attain a death worthy of an Astartes.

 

Once news of Thussaud's reappearance and escape surfaced, Chapter Master Hector Lamosa and a council of Captains held Filo Howl on trial for his treachery. Howl was found guilty of betraying the Chapter, the Emperor and the Imperium. Stripped of his title and honors, Howl was sentenced on a Penitent Crusade. Following this, the council decided on the necessity of purging the False Captain Thussaud. Astos Narrick, Champion of First Company, was selected to lead a replacement Second Company, unknowingly tasked with the duty of hunting down Thussaud and his Astartes.

 

Narrick was given the title Commander, instead of the rightful Captain, much to his distaste. He was ordered to retrieve Thussaud's relic helm to earn full honors. He eagerly obliged, swearing to slay the traitor Thussaud and all of his treacherous kin. Narrick, his own Astartes and a contingent of veterans from the Fourth Company, impatient to earn back their Company's lost honor, set off in the Strike Cruiser Cassandra, into the Ork Empires.

 

Please comment.

[GhostLegion]

Though slightly improved (I think), the choppyness of the read hurts me. I think if you work on the flow you may have a solid rework here.

 

Case in point, One area you could rewrite for readability is:

Reluctantly, Howl complied. He gave Thussad a recently repaired Strike Cruiser, Pandora.

Though technically correct, this does not read very well. You could rewrite this to be something like:

Reluctantly Howl complied, giving Thussad the recently repaired strike cruiser, Pandora

(though I am not certain on the second comma, I think it is correct). Alternatively, it could also read "Howl complied reluctantly," thus taking out the passive voice and making the sentance more active and even less complex.

 

The difference is subtle, but enough to make the combined idea easier to read and allowing it to flow with the rest of the paragraph.

 

This is just one instance...if you look around, you will find more.

Edited September 29, 2009 by GhostLegion

[Donkey Kong]

I see, unfortunately I'm having trouble picking them all out.

 

Is this a better interpretation of Howl? Does it give the idea that he would go against the rules for Thussuad and put his own neck on the line?

 

Thanks,

 

KHK

[Ferrus Manus]

Personally, I think it does. I feel it is much more believable now, so well done for that. Edited September 29, 2009 by Ferrus Manus

[Donkey Kong]

Second Company Captain Strabo Thussaud was lost to the warp following his victory in the Gehenna Campaign. A proud Astartes, Thussaud was beloved by many in the Chapter and renown for his ability to command and fighting prowess. Thussaud and his Company reemerged two Terran years later, twisted and corrupted by the powers of the Immaterium. Many had attempted to heal their tainted bodies by replacing their tampered limbs with bionics. Their efforts were in vain. His battle brothers were left mutated and metal husks, a shame to their Chapter, their Company, their Emperor and themselves.

 

Thussaud's ship reappeared before Klysium. Soon after, he was boarded by the present Captain and his friend, Filo Howl of the Fourth Company. A compassionate Astartes, Howl was close to his battle brothers and like Thussaud he was beloved by all, though for a different reason. He was benelovent and kind to his battle brothers, yet he fought with the fervor of their most zealous warriors. Thussaud and Howl both knew the consequences if he remained on the world to face judgment from the rest of the Chapter. Thussaud fell to his knees, begging Howl to be allowed to leave with his brothers in a new vessel. Reluctantly Howl complied, giving Thussad the recently repaired strike cruiser Pandora. He could not bear the though of being responsible for the execution of a single Astartes, let alone a company of his fellow brothers. Thussaud and his Tainted Company flew off into the Ork Empires surrounding the Maelstrom, with the sole intention of attain a death worthy of an Astartes.

 

Once news of Thussaud's reappearance and escape surfaced, Chapter Master Hector Lamosa and a council of Captains held Filo Howl on trial for his treachery, he was declared guilty. Howl was stripped of his title and honors, and sentenced on a Penitent Crusade. Following this, the council decided on the necessity of purging the False Captain Thussaud. Astos Narrick, Champion of First Company, was selected to lead a replacement Second Company, unknowingly tasked with the duty of hunting down Thussaud and his Astartes. Narrick was given the title Commander, much to his distaste. He was ordered to retrieve Thussaud's relic helm to earn full honors and captaincy. He eagerly obliged, swearing to slay the traitor Thussaud and all of his treacherous kin. Narrick, his own Astartes and a contingent of veterans from the Fourth Company, impatient to earn back their Company's lost honor, set off in the Strike Cruiser Cassandra, into the Ork Empires.

 

I've edited some, hopefully it reads better now.

 

I'm glad he's more realistic now, Ferrus Manus :D !

[Donkey Kong]

A little story for you, my first attempt at the collector:

 

Venerable Brother Hayze crouched over the body of a fallen foe. An ork. A warboss, for that matter, and he had killed it. His innumerable charms chimed against one another in the gentle breeze. He removed his helm, clasping it to his side, to get a better view of the corpse, his prize. A slow grin worked its way across Hayze's face as he picked at the body with the the precision and care of a surgeon. Trinkets, trophies and weapons lined the xeno's belt, he wasn't interested in any of them. No, he carefully cut free the beast's head, he examined it from all angles, picking at it's thick hide to expose the bone beneath. Fractures lined the cranium, disappointed he turned his attention to the teeth. Hayze plucked the largest from the jaw and dropped the head He chuckled to himself as he listened to the sound of bone crashing against rockcrete. The towering marine turned his attention back to the corpse. He fingered through the trophies across the brute's belt. Crude things, most of his brothers would be satisfied with these, but he took only the finest. Pocketing the teeth in an ammo pouch, Hayze took a final look at the corpse. Humorously, he bloodied the warboss's hand and pressed it against his helm, the print made him smile. Rising back to his feet, Hayze accepted his disappointment. Etching a final red square into his thigh plate alongside a dozen others, he shook his head. He reached around his neck and fingered the Eldar stones and Ork teeth he had taken so many campaigns and worlds ago. There were prizes to be had, and he would find them, but not here.

 

Enjoy!

[Ace Debonair]

The Death Heads favor two methods of open combat, light and swift attacks and largely armored advances.

My problem here is that these two tactics are effectively at opposite ends of the scale. It's like saying that Chapter X favours close combat but also favours long range bombardment.

 

 

I suppose you could have them use the swift attacks as a diversionary tactic or to perhaps find the weak point in the enemy's defence before comitting the heavy armour. Maybe even have them do so because it would be considered unlucky to just throw the tanks in without a preliminary skirmish or whatever. ;)

 

I'd cheerfully comitt a chapter to your campaign story, but the four I'm working on are placed a long, long way away. Nevertheless, if you want some more astartes in your campaign I could probably have a detachment of the Infinity Knights come and help - it'd be very much in their style. Given the distance they have to travel, though, it could be a long time before they arrive. They might even miss it altogether. :lol:

[Magnus Thane]

Best you pick something as a major specialty and a secondary specialty you can reasonably link to it.

Say close combat assault and for instance 'stealth operations' (just a random pick)

[Donkey Kong]

Hey AD , MT !

 

The Death Heads favor light and swift attacks followed by armored advances.

 

Has since been edited in the actual IA. Luck doesn't play so much of a role that it completely dictates combat doctrine.

 

I would love to see a detachment of the Infinity Knights for Gehenna!

 

:D

 

No comment on The Collector?

 

KHK

[Codex Grey]

Should have commented in this thread a long time ago, but I just haven't had anything to say.

A cool and quirky Chapter, and it really shows how much time you've put into it. Well done.

 

One tiny thing; if the color blue is viewed as unlucky why don't they just not paint the librarians blue?

Edited October 3, 2009 by Codex Grey

[Donkey Kong]

Because Gulliman says so, and even if they don't fully respect daddy, they have to at some point :lol: . In all honesty, I just thought it was one of those funny things:

 

Who is the most likely to be corrupted by Chaos? The Librarian who is tapping into the warp. Why did he get infected? Because he ain't all that lucky!

 

I really like both of your Chapters, Codex Grey and I'm glad you finally commented here. I know it's selfish of me, but as an admirer, would it be possible for you to pick a little at the IA and possibly The Tainted section that is in Post 68 :lol: ?

 

KHK

 

EDIT: S+G

Edited October 3, 2009 by KingHongKong

[Donkey Kong]

The Emperor and the Imperium have betrayed us. For millennia we have been their slaves, we have given them our sweat, our blood and our lives and in return they have given us nothing! When the traitor and the xeno descended upon our world, we drove them off without the help of the Imperium. When we begged for aid, and when we were on the brink of extinction our world was neglected and our pleas ignored! Without the Eldar our legacy would be destroyed. Now, we turn from the Emperor. With our Governor dead and our priesthood in chains, we shall fight against our oppressors. They come for us without number, but we shall push them back! The Emperor’s armies will come for us. Our world will burn with the fires of battle, but we shall fight, and with our allies we shall win. From the ashes of our war, Gehenna will rise!

- PROPAGANDA RECORDING: ELECT PLANETARY CHANCELLOR FERZE, GIOR

Author: SEGMENTUM ADMINISTRATUM SCRIBE O’QUINN, CHARLOTTE

Date: ????-????

It was amazing. It was breathtaking. Throne, it was frightening. The Imperium had no patience, no mercy with Gehenna. General Adar Surge and Admiral Mae Adriel were charged with leading the invasion force of three dozen regiments of veteran guardsmen and armor, orders of Battle Sisters, twenty cruisers and countless escorts. [NUMBER] Astartes Chapters had contributed forces to this invasion, their numbers adding strength to the already immense fleet.

Gehenna, a city and manufacturing world, had turned from the Emperor. They had sided with the xeno Eldar and had executed their Planetary Governor along with a number of the priesthood and Mechanicus on world. Those that were not killed were imprisoned and millions of soldiers were conscripted from the populace. Guerilla operations by loyalist factions were occurring worldwide. It was our duty to bring this world to its knees, and it was my duty to record the conflict for the benefit of the Imperium of Mankind.

 

This is the beginning of the Gehenna Campaign, what do you think?