Nougat Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 I'm originally a regular SM player. But just for fun I've been looking through the latest Chaos codex...and man, some of this stuff is sorely tempting! Always wanted to get some Night Lords. It got me thinking about what exactly I would love to have for my vanilla marines, and what Chaos would love to have out of the SM codex (Purely for fun, I'm not complaining that anything's "overpowered" or that vanilla marines are "underpowered." Far from it! Both armies have their advantages and disadvantages). Speaking for myself, I'm terribly jealous of... 1. Demon Princes. Barely more points than a Captain, but much scarier. 2. Terminators on the cheap! Sure, they're 40 points if you want to imitate the loyalist Termie equipment. But 30 point terminators are cool. 3. Posessed. Expensive and not very reliable...but potentially so brutal. 4. Chaos Space Marines. Is ATSKNF really worth 1 point!? Serious business, to be sure. 5. Plague/Zerker/Thousand Sons/Noise Marines. Troops for Chaos, Elite of the Elite for in most armies! 6. Obliterators. Everything about them. 7. Chaos Land Raider. No Machine Spirit...but its cheap. 8. Summoned Greater Demon. Sucks that these got generalized, but they're still nasty. 9 Abaddon the Despoiler. Hmm. Well, maybe. Anyone ever have a battle royale between him and Marneus? So what do Chaos players wish they had out of the Vanilla Marine playbook? Since Third Edition both armies have changed a lot... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corpse. Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 Abbadon can fight a Codex:Daemons Bloodthirster and come out 4/9 wins about. (I tested 180 rounds, I was that curious...) Calagar is no match. Sorry. Daemon princes should cost what they cost in the daemon codex, but they are on the half way point of hive tyrant cheap and true cost of 5th edition. The few perks of our "5th" edition codex coming out right before the rulebook... For the second time... Summoned greater daemon is very very nasty. Move a rhino 12" forward, pivot a little, disembark the full 2" and then run 1-6 more inches and then when the greater daemon arrives, assault... Very nasty. Obliterators can be hidden by any tracked vehicle chaos uses so they are wonderful move and shoot firing platforms. Lash+plasma blast is a common tactic used with them. Chaos land raider, the 6 raider in 2k list is getting more popular these days. I used it sometimes with a buddies models, it's almost never lost. Possessed are worth their points, its just that they lack certain "well rounded" criteria and the direct assault role is covered by other models in the same elite slot/troops slot. (Powerfist, grenades, meltas etc) Termies are popular with termicide, assault from a raider with khorne icon, and having large-ish units with the icon teleport homing them into a decent location. (Lots of icons available unlike loyalist armies, so the transport can be bypassed) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 Summoned greater daemon is very very nasty. Move a rhino 12" forward, pivot a little, disembark the full 2" and then run 1-6 more inches and then when the greater daemon arrives, assault... Very nasty. and what if it doesnt or the champ from that unit dies or even more fun he arrives , but there is no opponent in range? 4. Chaos Space Marines. Is ATSKNF really worth 1 point!? Serious business, to be sure. yes it is . specially as SW now get the same ultra grit , 2 specials and ATSKNF . So what do Chaos players wish they had out of the Vanilla Marine playbook? Since Third Edition both armies have changed a lot... drop pods and attack bikes. but then we wouldtoo much like SW. even now the only difference between us , is that we run 4 troops and 2 hqs and they run 4 troops and 3 or more HQs . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronWinds Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 9 Abaddon the Despoiler. Hmm. Well, maybe. Anyone ever have a battle royale between him and Marneus? Abby took out Calgar, his squad, another squad.... finally some grey knights killed him but he took out most of them to. Yea it is really no match. 4. Chaos Space Marines. Is ATSKNF really worth 1 point!? Serious business, to be sure. I always buy Icon of undivided. In my many years of play I think I've had 1 guy run off the field. I will take my bolter, pistol, and ccw though. If they eventually give all marines that we better get something in return. So what do Chaos players wish they had out of the Vanilla Marine playbook? Since Third Edition both armies have changed a lot... Well first off I would like my stuff from 3.5 back. I would like rules for indiviaul armies. Here we are comparing all of chaos to SWs.... so sad. We should be comparing just world eaters to SWs. Drop pods, dreadnaughts that are 'not' crazy, did I mention rules for the various armies. Storm shields.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RagingGriffon Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 I would kill for a Razorback. I love those things. I don't mind the currrent Chaos Codex too much. I do miss the older ones (free Aspiring Champs for 8 Bezerkers). Oh well, I am sure we will get some love back on the next 'dex. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Nihm Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 So what do Chaos players wish they had out of the Vanilla Marine playbook?Diversity and flavour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corpse. Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 Summoned greater daemon is very very nasty. Move a rhino 12" forward, pivot a little, disembark the full 2" and then run 1-6 more inches and then when the greater daemon arrives, assault... Very nasty. and what if it doesnt or the champ from that unit dies or even more fun he arrives , but there is no opponent in range? Its a gamble. 12"+2"(a fair man's rhino pivot 2' disembark and 1" base, you'll see when you try it)+1"-6" run, then 6" assault next turn. More so the lesser daemon thing because of the icon's 6" arrival range but he didn't mention lesser daemons to comment on. Not like the 6" move and 6" assault on turn 2 of the marines the GD comes in near wont be able to assault (and if not, then shoot at the very least). Perhaps I should type everything out in full, complete explanations more often. checking B&C during work breaks does me no good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuskRaider Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 So what do Chaos players wish they had out of the Vanilla Marine playbook?Diversity and flavour. +1 ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I AM THE AWESOME Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 +1 :) +2 :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nougat Posted September 10, 2009 Author Share Posted September 10, 2009 Diversity and flavour. How so, just the variant Iron Warriors, World Eaters, Death Guard, etc army lists? I'd agree there, not sure why GW decided to clump all those into one army list, while keeping variants like Dark Angels, Space Wolves, etc. in separate codices. Vanilla SM lost some flavor though with the removal of traits, at least going 4th to 5th. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 Diversity and flavour. How so, just the variant Iron Warriors, World Eaters, Death Guard, etc army lists? I'd agree there, not sure why GW decided to clump all those into one army list, while keeping variants like Dark Angels, Space Wolves, etc. in separate codices. Vanilla SM lost some flavor though with the removal of traits, at least going 4th to 5th. From the Chaos perspective, the current codex is built around the concept of "Renegades" and hodge podge warbands. Want to play as a Renegade chapter with Bersekers, Plague Marines and a Slaaneshi Daemon Prince? Sure, thats fluffy right?! ;) While we have the ability to use Icons to mark our units, the whole idea of the Icon being able to be killed off and the unit losing the bonus is silly. Add in that the Cult troop choices are usually closer to their respective gods then marked units (why is a Power Armor Berserker better at HtH combat then a Khorne Terminator Champion?) and its really hard to play a fluffy and competitive Cult Legion. Undivided armies like Word Bearers and Alpha Legion really got hit hard, losing alot of their unique options (like cultists, infiltrating or Dark Apostles). The fix we're told is "use count-as!", which seems silly at best. And while I don't agree with it, many players have started using the new SM codex to make their Chaos armies as they believe it more accurately represents their particular Legion. As it is now, if you want to play competitive Chaos, you typically end up with either a Renegade army or Black Legion (since they can take anything/everything in the fluff) that looks VERY similar to that other guy's Chaos army. Now its not all horrible, but the biggest hit for alot of players was the dumbing down/ignoring of the Legion's unique rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted September 11, 2009 Share Posted September 11, 2009 then 6" assault next turn. and for that turn your opponent can move 6" and run d6" . can embark a transport [thats 12"movment or more depends what army it is]. can make a wall of rhinos , devil fish, serpents and thats just passiv stuff , no shoting or using counter units , lashing the GD away etc . its not a gamble , its wasted points for the champion [makes the unit weaker ] and GD that could be spent on a unit that works almost always and has no one turn down time . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
incinerator950 Posted September 11, 2009 Share Posted September 11, 2009 So what do Chaos players wish they had out of the Vanilla Marine playbook?Diversity and flavour. I don't know why started laughing after reading a few posts before this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drudge Dreadnought Posted September 11, 2009 Share Posted September 11, 2009 +1 +2 :( +3 :/ Tbh i find this whole threat pretty amusing. Everything to be said on this topic has already been said before in other threads though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chillin Posted September 11, 2009 Share Posted September 11, 2009 So what do Chaos players wish they had out of the Vanilla Marine playbook?Diversity and flavour. +1 +4 :( S/m's can represent (what 8 or 10) different chapters with different play styles (not that I like having to take a spec character to do it). Chaos not having legion rules annoys me. Drop pods would be kool (it might make chaos overpowered though) Would like to have razorbacks, don't really think they're that great, just think they look kool, plus I love TL'ed HB's. Having more then 2 or 3 pieces of wargear for characters. Why are s/m libbies SO much more powerful then chaos sorc's, even Tz ones (you know, the god of magic) But really that's all small stuff. I just want legion rules and flavor and depth put back in chaos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drudge Dreadnought Posted September 11, 2009 Share Posted September 11, 2009 So what do Chaos players wish they had out of the Vanilla Marine playbook?Diversity and flavour. +1 ;) +4 :D S/m's can represent (what 8 or 10) different chapters with different play styles (not that I like having to take a spec character to do it). Chaos not having legion rules annoys me. Drop pods would be kool (it might make chaos overpowered though) Would like to have razorbacks, don't really think they're that great, just think they look kool, plus I love TL'ed HB's. Having more then 2 or 3 pieces of wargear for characters. Why are s/m libbies SO much more powerful then chaos sorc's, even Tz ones (you know, the god of magic) But really that's all small stuff. I just want legion rules and flavor and depth put back in chaos. Aspiring Champions are the same as sergeants. The blessings of the dark gods (5+ invul save) are less powerful than some imperial tech that every captain has (iron halo). Chaos Chosen are masters of stealth only. Daemon engines are more sane than dreadnoughts. 10,000 years of warfare hasn't taught chaos marines any new/advanced skills, but they have learned how to hold 3 weapons! Daemon princes cannot have daemon weapons. Its easier (cheaper) to have a daemon prince than a lord with most loadouts. The daemon prince is also better. 10,000 year old sorcerers who serve the god of magic are weaker than a couple hundred year old librarians. Ahriman, the second most powerful sorcerer/psyker in existance, the chosen of the god of magic, is weaker ingame than tigurius, who in the greater perspective is just some randomass dude. Chaos terminators, fluffwise some of the most favored and individually powerful people in the universe, break and run from a fight when one of them gets dinged nearly 1/6th of the time (not fearless). Khorne berzerkers, the most battle crazed insane madmen in existance, are less berzerk and battle crazed than a bunch of random murderers inducted into the guard. Thinking about this codex too much makes me want to stab people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted September 11, 2009 Share Posted September 11, 2009 Drop pods would be kool (it might make chaos overpowered though) You know I though like that too. that no drop pods is there to balance stuff , because precise deep striking is a very powerful tool , even if it is random. then came codex sm and drop pod assault and suddenlly sm were getting first turn deep strike and no randomness. I still was , ok , but they have to pack dreads [not scoring and AV stuff can die rather fast in a melta edition] or sternguard [unscoring unless its pedro , are cheap like termicid] to get mulitple meltaguns. all is good and all is there because of balance . then came codex SW , double specials same points cost as csm and drop pods and drop pod assault. And because its an official GW product it means that the DT for w40k thinks that dual specials and close range uber grit sm is totally balanced and ok. ah and +5. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnus Thane Posted September 11, 2009 Share Posted September 11, 2009 I'd also like to see Abby actually CONTROL his fricking Daemonweapon. -__-; Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuskRaider Posted September 11, 2009 Share Posted September 11, 2009 That's alright, something tells me when we eventually get our update, we'll probably have Drop Pods or Dread Claws. I think Dread Claws would be better, IMO... Give us the ability to re-use our Drop Pods so we have some sort of advantage. If the SW codex is any indication of what GW thinks Assault Troops should be, expect to see the return of awesome Berserkers. Then again, as people have said elsewhere... GW may get cold feet on writing such a powerful codex again, so the next codices may see some uber nerfing, which is a bit nerve racking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
incinerator950 Posted September 11, 2009 Share Posted September 11, 2009 +6, even if I'm transferring from 40k to epic: Armageddon for Titan warfare. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GiantKiller Posted September 11, 2009 Share Posted September 11, 2009 So what do Chaos players wish they had out of the Vanilla Marine playbook? Since Third Edition both armies have changed a lot... Multimeltas on troops. Landraider variants. MM/HF Landspeeders. Dreadnoughts that aren't crazier than a pet raccoon. Worthwhile special characters without a random chance to hurt themselves or others. I did envy TH/SS terminators until I realized that Tzeentch-marked chaos termies with powerfists were basically the poor man's TH/SS termies and could still take combi-weapons. -GK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted September 11, 2009 Share Posted September 11, 2009 I did envy TH/SS terminators until I realized that Tzeentch-marked chaos termies with powerfists were basically the poor man's TH/SS termies and could still take combi-weapons. Yeah until you notice that our weapons are inferior, the Inv save is inferior, the unit is more expensive and we can lose our enhanced Inv save due to a few lucky shots. Then factor in we don't have a Land Raider large enough to carry an upsized squad in and it kinda sucks. :rolleyes: Speaking just of Terminators, we are lucky in that ours are cheap and have access to Combi-Weapons. Basically our Terminators are a mix between Loyalist Terminators and their Sternguard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drudge Dreadnought Posted September 11, 2009 Share Posted September 11, 2009 Personally i do NOT want any of the loyalist toys people are mentioning. Speeders, razorbacks, infantry carried MMs and plasma cannons etc. I want chaos to have what its supposed to have. Daemonic gifts/powers, and the best (but most expensive) units. I also want units with elements of risk (not randomness!). To compare to another game, chaos right now feels like Red from Magic the Gathering. Lots of straightforward firepower but nothing subtle or tricky. Its supposed to be like Black, which allowed a lot more risks to yourself in return for potentially larger rewards. For example, a red card would be pay X mana deal X damage. The Black version was pay X life deal X damage. The way this could translate to Chaos is if daemon weapons weren't random, but gave you a penalty to a stat in return for their effect. Like -1 toughness or something, making it a tradeoff of increased offense for reduced defense. Other things like this were the thralls sorcs could take in the old codex that they could sacrifice to gain power, or the berserker glaive that made 1 guy into a total beast but you lost most of your control over him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuskRaider Posted September 11, 2009 Share Posted September 11, 2009 Agreed. I don't need, nor do I want, the Loyalist loadout. With the exception of the Drop Pod, we don't need that stuff to stay competitive. If we want to be considered by not only GW but also the other players to be something more then just another Marine army, we need more unique options. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnus Thane Posted September 11, 2009 Share Posted September 11, 2009 Oooh better Chaos Dreads would be great! I'm getting one anyway though... just because I love Dreads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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