favorite primarch

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

@dues lox: the numbers of the legions remains a hotly debated point. some believe they legions were 100,000 strong while others belive they were much much smaller.

 

WLK

[Deus Lox]

Ah. My mistake then. Thanks. Is the 2.5 to one thing about correct? I do believe it is, but I could be wrong.

[Legatus]

The 2.5 factor is still correct. In the 100k accounts the Ultramarines had about 250,000 members compared to teh average 100,000, while in teh 10k accounts tehy had 25,000 compared to the average 10,000.

[Donkey Kong]

Deus Lox

 

Gulliman had an miniature Empire to recruit from. The other primarchs had single worlds. The best tacticians are still Dorn, Gulliman, Horus, The Lion and Alpharius, but the Ultramarine's numbers are no indication of Gulliman's ability to lead, merely the resources at his disposal.

[c-wrex]

The best tacticians are still Dorn, Gulliman, Horus, The Lion and Alpharius,

 

Only because we haven't been exposed to the tactical skills of many of the other primarchs yet. However, agreed, these five you listed are quite skilled at the matter. But then again, what about Perturabo, or Corax?

[Lady_Mournival]

The best tacticians are still Dorn, Gulliman, Horus, The Lion and Alpharius,

 

Only because we haven't been exposed to the tactical skills of many of the other primarchs yet. However, agreed, these five you listed are quite skilled at the matter. But then again, what about Perturabo, or Corax?

 

Perturabo is a very skilled tactician!!!!!!!!!!!!!! not only is he great a sieges on both sides of the walls but he managed to fool everyone after Horus manipulated him into turning to chaos. I think the end of Fallen Angels would really serve to help my point, and he also managed to slaughter his homeworld and then get picked for wave 2 before anyone knew of the wiser.

[Deus Lox]

Deus Lox

 

Gulliman had an miniature Empire to recruit from. The other primarchs had single worlds. The best tacticians are still Dorn, Gulliman, Horus, The Lion and Alpharius, but the Ultramarine's numbers are no indication of Gulliman's ability to lead, merely the resources at his disposal.

 

If that is, indeed, the case, then what does that Empire say about him? Why did none of the other Legions recruit from multiple worlds and bolster their numbers that way? Why is Guilliman the only one who thought of this? I know that Rogal Dorn wanted "recruits, not vassals" and so stayed away from politics, for the most part, Alpharius used large amounts of non-Astartes operatives in the field instead of his Legion, so he can be excused, but why didn't Horus and The Lion expand their recruiting area and bolster their numbers? Was their simply no demand for them? I don't think so, as it was the height of the Great Crusade. Would not having more available marines simply be useful, especially considering the dangerous nature of the Crusade? Why was this so unique?

[Legatus]

The Primarchs had different specialisation when it came to tactics. Perturabe was an expert in calculating the weak points of enemy defenses, Corax could rapidly re-deploy his forces as was neccessary, Alpharius made plans with backup-plans which in turn were just decoys for the actual plan etc. Guillimans feat was to be successful with a minimum of own casualties and colateral damage, which was in part responsible for why over the course of the Great Crusade the Ultramarines were able to grow into the largest Legion. The well organised recruitment system was of course the other significant part, but it is attributed to both the recruitment as well as his tactical expertise in the background.

[Donkey Kong]

Only because we haven't been exposed to the tactical skills of many of the other primarchs yet. However, agreed, these five you listed are quite skilled at the matter. But then again, what about Perturabo, or Corax?

 

With the exception of Alpharius, who was found too late to have too great an impact, Horus, Dorn, and The Lion have the greatest number of conquered worlds under their belt, Gulliman close behind.

 

If that is, indeed, the case, then what does that Empire say about him? Why did none of the other Legions recruit from multiple worlds and bolster their numbers that way? Why is Guilliman the only one who thought of this? I know that Rogal Dorn wanted "recruits, not vassals" and so stayed away from politics, for the most part, Alpharius used large amounts of non-Astartes operatives in the field instead of his Legion, so he can be excused, but why didn't Horus and The Lion expand their recruiting area and bolster their numbers? Was their simply no demand for them? I don't think so, as it was the height of the Great Crusade. Would not having more available marines simply be useful, especially considering the dangerous nature of the Crusade? Why was this so unique?

 

The Primarchs were demi-gods. Their legions were their sons and their respective worlds were their homes. It's a matter of pride. Ultramarines had Ultramar as a recruiting base. Dorn never had a solid recruiting base so drew from everywhere (including Terra). Everyone else had a home and a place where they wanted their sons to come from.

[Legatus]

Horus, Dorn, and The Lion have the greatest number of conquered worlds under their belt, Gulliman close behind.

Guilliman had liberated the most worlds. Horus, Jonson and Russ had the most "victories".

[Lady_Mournival]

Horus, Dorn, and The Lion have the greatest number of conquered worlds under their belt, Gulliman close behind.

Guilliman had liberated the most worlds. Horus, Jonson and Russ had the most "victories".

 

No, Horus did actually have the most victories and worlds liberated; O think we have a Guilliman-Zealot here.

[UltimateJake]

Horus, Dorn, and The Lion have the greatest number of conquered worlds under their belt, Gulliman close behind.

Guilliman had liberated the most worlds. Horus, Jonson and Russ had the most "victories".

 

No, Horus did actually have the most victories and worlds liberated; O think we have a Guilliman-Zealot here.

 

Horus would have the longest record of combat most likely since he was found first. :)

[Legatus]

No, Horus did actually have the most victories and worlds liberated; O think we have a Guilliman-Zealot here.

I know that it is what the Index Astartes Luna Wolves claims, but I can raise you the 2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines and the 5th Edition Codex Space Marines which say otherwise, and I would say two codices one from before and one from after the Index Astartes release, easily outweigh the Index Astartes.

 

Edit: Also, the Index Astartes Raven Guard as well as the Index Astartes Luna Wolves themselves suggest that Horus's record was based a lot on the efforts of other Legions such as the Raven Guard, the Iron Warriors and even the Ultramarines, leaving even the claims in the Index Astartes Luna Wolves questionable.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

How is that Illuminations Ultramarines Article going, Legatus? ~ the need has been shown once again ^_^

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

O think we have a Guilliman-Zealot here.

 

You haven't noticed that Legatus supports UM by now? It isn't reflected in his avatar or sig, but a lot of the posts he makes is reflective of the blue legion (notice: I can tell he isn't fanboy status, and I have a harsh grading system there).

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Horus, Dorn, and The Lion have the greatest number of conquered worlds under their belt, Gulliman close behind.

Guilliman had liberated the most worlds. Horus, Jonson and Russ had the most "victories".

 

No, Horus did actually have the most victories and worlds liberated; O think we have a Guilliman-Zealot here.

 

I can't find in IA: Black Legion where it says Horus liberated the most worlds. I don't think it is correct.

 

That means Guilliman did liberate the most worlds.

 

Which means, at least from the reasoning you gave, Legatus is not a Guilliman-Zealot.

[Legatus]

Some time ago I wasn't immediately able to find the claim that the Luna Wolves liberated the most worlds in the Index Astartes either, because in the history description of the Legion during the Great Crusade it merely states that the Luna Wolves were "striving to conquer and liberate more worlds than the other Legions". However, it is indeed stated later, in their "beliefs" section oddly enough.

 

"In continually seeking to prove themselves as the greatest Legion, they did indeed achieve most in terms of sheer numbers of worlds brought into the Imperial fold prior to the heresy."

 

That claim is relativized by the Legions conduct in joint operations, though. From the Luna Wolves Index Astartes:

 

"In the Aarturo, Keskastine and Androv Systems, the Luna Wolves are known to have moved swiftly on to planet after planet as soon as the local armies had been subdued. The Ultramarines and the Iron Warriors, who were fighting alongside Horus's Legion at this time, were repeatedly left to mop up any final pockets of resistance and establish garrisons on the conquered worlds. The Luna Wolves' officiers apparently refused point blank to assign any troops to these duties, insisting that every man was required for the ongoing crusade. Further rebellion flared up on a number of the planets after the Luna Wolves had left, and it is believed that the Ultramarines' Primarch Roboute Guilliman subsequently had words with Horus on the matter."

 

And this is what the Index Astartes Raven Guard had to say on the matter:

 

"Corax's Legion garnered such a fearsome reputation that the Warmaster Horus requested its aid many times in his campaigns, and it is thought that it was thanks to the Raven Guard's assistance that Horus's tally of victories was so high. The Raven Guard's records are curiously reticent concerning this period of history, and Imperial historians suspect that the taciturn Corax did not like the more gregarious Horus and found him overly boastful and manipulative. It is rumoured that, on one occasion, the two almost came to blows, and bloodshed was only averted when Corax removed his Legion from the Warmaster's command."

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

so, in brief, horus was kinda a dick?

 

makes his whole betrayal thing much more believable.

 

WLK

[Marshal Wilhelm]

In support of Legatus, remember how the Mentors legion fluff said they had a big roll of honour and that was just because they had sent a squad to coach those fighting in the conflict? The Mentors did fight, but more adding garnish to whatever had already been served up. Yet they could still (apparently legitimately) add it to their roll of honour.

 

I think that is how the Luna Wolves 'get' that credited to them in the IA article. Horus, as Warmaster and commander of any forces that even a token Sons of Horus force, gets credit for it.

 

It's like there being 10 battles being fought and 10 credits to be won from them. When Horus gets marks that UM, IW and RG have earnt, the total credits being given out may be, say, 16.

 

The position of Warmaster fudges the books (even if Horus wasn't being a jerk about it)

[Legatus]

There are still the Codex Ultramarines and the 5th Edition Codex Space Marines which both state that Guilliman liberated more worlds than any other Primarch anyway, which, as I stated earlier, I would give more weight than a single Index Astartes. I was citing the Index Astartes accounts to demonstrate that even taken on it's own the Index Astartes statement can be questioned.

[Xavier Targhost]

Humm but still it is said that the Horus, Dorn, Russ and Guilliman had the most worlds liberated the most..

and after all the new codex is a massive Ultra glory book more or less and its always that way when the sons of Guilliman are araound that the Posterboys are this and that... Ohh they are soo good att everything and best.. bla bla bla...

They are good but nott that good.. Horus where the greatest and Dorn where awesome afterall he where the one the Emperor had for Pretoriand and on Earth for all the stuff he needed done! not the goody goody Guilliman...

and while im on the nagging part i might add that im a bitt confused about the moment when Horus loverd the shields for the Emperors death thing.. it is said that Russ, The Lion and Gulliman where aproatching... though Russ where blasted nearly to hell from the battles with Magnus the Red and then from Alpha legion on his way from there and needed the White Scars aid..? Gulliman almost the same with the Wordbearers ripping them apart badly... and the Lions forses might be rather bigg but still there where allot of Trators there and they where winning and would have won if the nobel Sanguinius hadent sacrefiest himself and Horus showing some of the former self in conflickt whith his new dark self whitsh did become his death in the battle with the Emperor...

Lotts of opinions here though.. and Ultra fanboys.. but what can u do? :P

I might add that i dont hate the Ultramarines.. though im a bitt tired of hearing all this wea are so good and uber best att everything crapp... and i have painted a 2k 2.company army for a friend and have done some of the 4th aswell.. and there are som wicedly nice armys out there too..:P hehe..

 

Cheers and salute Dorn, Horus, Sanguinius and the bloody Russ... :)

 

btw sorry for my crappy writing.. ;) dont work today fore some reasons ?

[Legatus]

Several sources state that Horus, Leman Russ and Lion El Jonson had the most victories. I am not sure where Dorn is mentioned as being at the top. I think it is probably some of the Horus Heresy novels, which I have not read. Russ is specifially put in position number three, not Jonson, so it is unlikely that Jonson was simply number four untill Dorn stopped actively participating in the Crusade. Perhaps the author in question was just confusing his Primarchs.

 

The Ultramarines lost one third of their strenght when they were attacked by the Word bearers if I recall correctly. That would mean they still were more than one and a half the size of an average Legion when they were racing to Terra.

 

I am not saying the Ultramarines are the best (because that would be redundant, and I know some people don't like to hear about it :P ), just setting things straight when someone puts Guilliman behind Horus, Russ and Jonson (or Dorn) in terms of liberated worlds.

[Walter Payton]

We know very little about the adult Guilliman. He has his background in C:SM, but it mostly deals with him pre-Great Crusade. We know little about his time in the Great Crusade. Personally, I dislike him for this very reason. I do not dislike Ultramarines,in fact, I have 1,000 points of them, but I do not really connect with Guilliman, because I know jack all about him, apart from his awesomeness. He should, if we ever see more about him, have the flaws of condescension and tactlessness.

[Commander Proteus]

Corax.

 

Reading the Heresy books/audiobooks has given me a different insight into the primarchs I've seen. When I played DA I revered the Lion, but descent, and fallen angels really made me think him a schmuck. I hated the fact that he would be so prideful as to leave some of the strength of his legion home to fester, and become a thorn in his side.

 

Having recently gotten Raven's Flight, I honestly thought it masterful that Corax would consider for a moment that being a primarch had its fatal drawbacks. He became so humble, and so mindful of the fact that primarchs had only ever fought and conquered.

 

And I'm even more impressed that he didn't cave in after these thoughts, but kept fighting.

 

I also thought that his use of his troops and his consideration for their lives was a characteristic much lacking in other primarchs.

 

They're all cool, and they all have interesting aspects. Corax is just the one who communicates most to me.

 

-Proteus

[Pacific81]

@dues lox: the numbers of the legions remains a hotly debated point. some believe they legions were 100,000 strong while others belive they were much much smaller.

 

WLK

 

We now also have the comment in Raven's Flight about the Raven Guard being 80,000 strong, and them being considered one of the smaller legions!

 

So, this supports the larger figure of 250,000 in Collected Visions. Personally, I have thought that the larger numbers always made more sense - if you think the entire Imperium was carved out in a mere 250 years, and the Legions were armies, they were the major deciding factor in the combat that took place to take control of systems and wipe out alien empires, rather than the 'strike force' of 40k marine chapters. Imagine the potential population of a system of worlds, or of an Orc Empire, and I think for the ability to conquer and then subjugate then figures in the tens of thousand are just too small, even considering the power of a marine.

 

Regarding the Horus - Gulliman debate, I think the proof of the pudding as far as this is concerned is in who the Emperor chose to be Warmaster. I think the Emperor saw in Horus more of himself than any other Primarch, in his brilliance as a leader as well as his abilities as a director of armies, and this is the reason he left control of the Great Crusade in his hands. Regardless of the morality of the issue, you have to admit that Horus came within a hairs breath of pulling his rebellion off, and of managing to push 7 of the other Primarchs to his own cause. I can't imagine another Primarch who would have been able to accomplish this, and despite Gulliman's brilliance you just don't get the same impression of a dynamic character.