Which Legion dissapointed you the most?

[Captain Tezdal]

One more that is not optional: Astartes fleets must not include ships tailored for pure space combat above escort size, they must specialise in planetary bombardment/assault. The Astartes cannot be allowed to challenge the primacy of the Imperial Navy.

 

 

except........for the Ultra's SO lance armed BB? for a codex chapter, they seem to aquire a lot of non codex things. Anyway, all that geneseed talk, in the Emperor's Children IA didnt it state that they had the purest geneseed before the heresy?

[Ubermensch Commander]

Ubermensch Commander:

World Eaters: Ok. Slighted honor, poor dead battle bros (aka frothing psychotic scum), blah blah blah. That excuse doesn't work after killing for the Emperor and turning your own Legion into bloodthirsty suicide troops. Had Angron's later actions not completely invalidated his objections to the Emperor's actions on his homeworld, I could understand turning. Besides, he had been fighting for the Imperium for some time when the Heresy broke out. Get over it.

 

You're assuming that he comes under the influence of Khorne after working for the Emperor. Personally, I subscribe to the view that he fell to/was first influenced by Chaos in the wake of the Emperor's betrayal of him (look, it's kidnapping. That's a betrayal). In that light, it looks a little different (and makes the character rather more consistent).

 

Yep saving his life. What a betrayal. Man, that Emperor what a jerk y'know?

 

At best, even allowing that Angron wasn't a frothing lunatic too far gone to be cognizant, he had a personal grudge with the Emperor. Now, that does not excuse plunging the galaxy into chaos for Chaos. Not to mention, if he actually DID care for the troops under him, as he claimed, then he would not have kept turning them into self destructive berserkers. Ahhhh, HYPOCRISY.

 

As for the Chaos thing, it does not really state when Chaos began influencing Angron. Regardless of the Chaos influence, however, Angron still acted in a manner directly contrary to warriors code he claims the Emperor slighted.

Then, by fighting for the Emperor and making his troops into 'zerks (not the Khornate kind at first but still) and inflicting atrocities upon them and the Emperor's enemies, he cosigns the Emperor's decision; that in the long run, doomed psycho slaves simply do not matter. Hell, the Emperor told Angron to quit it with that mind-freak implant junk.

 

But we have had this discussion before. *shrug*

 

Like nearly all the Chaos Primarchs, they took what were at best personal grudges, most resulting from their own pitiful failings, and then decided the burn the cosmos for it and betray their oaths of loyalty. Nothing really excuses, especially AFTER playing with all of your liege lord/father's toys. (Toys= All the military, administrative, and economic might of the Imperium)

[Ragnar Lodbrok]

^I have a feeling you don't fully understand the Pre-HH World Eaters and Angron at all.

[shamen]

just a thought about angron and his worship of khorne:

 

it is possible that angron was worshipping khone from the moment he first killed in the arena, just never had any idea he was, cos it is well established that most warriors, soldiers and murders all gain the attention of khorne at some point in there career. now if we presume that it was indeed the chaos gods who scattered the incubation chambers, then it can also be presumed that khorne saw the potential in angron from an early age. so it may of been just that angron was going about killing things with his big axe, and before you can say "emperor save me" fell in to a trap that horus just made inescapable with a few twisted half truths and lies.

 

just my humble and proberly completely wrong opinion.

[Legatus]

Guilliman gets every single chapter at least paying lip service to his ideas and his precepts. He trades command of a legion for the knowledge that everyone is doing things his way. And for some people, that's a powerful motivator.

I would like if people would differentiate between the breakup of the Legions, which as a decree which everyone had to obey and some protested against, and the organisational and tactical doctrines, which were guidelines.

 

 

The siege tactics of Perturabo were kept, on the other Primarch contributions there is no information that I know of.

Careful. While there is no other information, assuming that Guilliman created the rest himself would seem to err, especially in light of the fact that IA: Codex Astartes (IIRC) explains how thousands of warriors have contributed to the Codex. I mean, maybe that's Guilliman and Perturabo, and everyone else is afterwards, but...

It was simply meant as a supporting note on the raised issue of traitor contributions. Perturabos contributions are mentioned in at least two sources (in the back of the 3rd ed Codex Chaos description of the Iron Warriors and in the Index Astartes Imperial Fists account of the Iron Cage), but there are no others mentioned, or if there are then I do not remember them or know of them. It was meant purely as a factual statement, and I did not want to insinuate that therefor the others did not contribute.

The "thousands of warriors" likely refers mainly to all those who have contributed new material to the Codex long after the Primarchs had gone.

 

 

The other interesting thing is that Perturabo's contribution is mentioned in the form of a large part of the codex which looks like something he wrote. Which implies the contents is unattributed. Which...is interesting.

The 3rd Edition Codex Chaos Space Marines states that his treatises on sieges and fortifications are the basis for several sections of the Tactica Imeprium. The Index Astartes Imperial Fists states that his writing had been contained by Guilliman in his Codex. I allways was under the assumption that Guilliman enquired the other Primarchs about their tactics or observed them, and then decided what to include. But we have no detailed description of how the Codex has been compiled.

Perhaps the description of the Codex should descibe more clearly that it contains the best of all the Primarchs (which maybe even could silence some of those who constantly complain about how Guilliman wanted everyone to do it "his way" ;) ). Well, I already knew that, but then I have read a lot of different sources.

 

 

Anyway, all that geneseed talk, in the Emperor's Children IA didnt it state that they had the purest geneseed before the heresy?

Indeed it does. So, gee, I wonder why they were not used for more successor Chapters then. :tu:

 

 

for the Ultra's SO lance armed BB? for a codex chapter, they seem to aquire a lot of non codex things.

Yeah, I would put that down in the same vein as the Tyrannic War Veterans. Some GW author thinks the Ultramarines should have special stuff and in the process ignores their basic theme. It is a shame, really. But then the BFG Ultramarines have fought against several Hive Fleets between Behemoth and Kraken that were not actually there, so perhaps that is sort of an "alternate 40K" universe? :P

[Grand Master Tyrak]

One more that is not optional: Astartes fleets must not include ships tailored for pure space combat above escort size, they must specialise in planetary bombardment/assault. The Astartes cannot be allowed to challenge the primacy of the Imperial Navy.

except........for the Ultra's SO lance armed BB?

 

And the Grand Cruiser that the Space Wolves have. And the Phalanx. Being a First Founding Chapter gives you a lot of political clout, and whilst you can still be stopped from acquiring more non-Codex things, it can be very difficult to make you give them up once you've got them, particularly if the Emperor himself granted them to you. Flouting the restrictions like that probably didn't do the Ultramarines any favours.

 

for a codex chapter, they seem to aquire a lot of non codex things.

 

I count two - the Seditio Opprimere and the Tyrannic War Veterans. Both haven't been mentioned again outside the original source.

[randian]

it is possible that angron was worshipping khone from the moment he first killed in the arena, just never had any idea he was, cos it is well established that most warriors, soldiers and murders all gain the attention of khorne at some point in there career. now if we presume that it was indeed the chaos gods who scattered the incubation chambers, then it can also be presumed that khorne saw the potential in angron from an early age. so it may of been just that angron was going about killing things with his big axe, and before you can say "emperor save me" fell in to a trap that horus just made inescapable with a few twisted half truths and lies.

 

How does Khorne start whispering to you before you've been recruited by an agent of Chaos? The Imperium should have fallen to Chaos already if were possible for the Chaos gods and their daemons to influence people who who merely manifest the appropriate emotions but haven't been in contact with a Chaos artifact or been recruited by a follower of Chaos.

[Pacific81]

During the Great Crusade both the big E and Horus utilised the various characters of Legions depending upon the character of the enemies they faced - so the IW and IF were used in seige situations, the AL where subtlety was advantageous, the White Scars where speed and behind enemy lines strikes were needed etc. Similarly, the WE (and I suppose you could argue, the BA and SW) were used when bloody assaults were needed. It suited the character of the Legion, and it suited the methods of their Primarch. Judging from the speed of the Imperiums expansion during the Crusade, you would have to say that they were pretty successful!

 

Now war, as they say, is hell - and in the 30k universe I can imagine none more harrowing than the type of warfare that would have been at the end of a World Eater assault. So you have this situation where, over the course of 200 years or more, the 12th Legion has been used at the forefront of this type of fighting - the most bloody and desperate assaults. Angron joins the legion and brings in the neural implants, but really this is just a continuation of what they have already been doing. There are many accounts of the type of warfare they were involved in - the forlorn hope of Arrigata for example, where Horus had ordered the WE into the breech of a heavily defended fortress. The marines attacking took a beating during the assault, with hundreds of them dying. When they finally got inside the fortress they were reprimanded for massacreing the defenders inside, but in the context of warfare was that really so unnaceptable?

 

To the outsider and to us the behaviour is horrific, but to the marines who's compatriots had been cut down like wheat in the assault, they were just having their vengance. There are similar precidents in our own history which serve as a precedent - the allied troops cutting down the defending soldiers at D-day when they finally reach the cliffs, the Russian soldiers entering Germany after so many years of horrific damage to their own country, even some controversial behaviour by allied soldiers in the last Iraq war. The point is, you cannot expect those who have suffered the ultimate depravity that is war to then behave like civilised human beings at the flick of the switch. Even more so when warfare and violence is all those warriors have ever known - what they were designed for in fact.

 

So, I see the WE decent to Khorne as a number of small steps which culminated in their damnation. Their character was defined by their level of aggression, and their use by the masters of the Great Crusade which utilised their effectiveness in this regard. This was all well and good while they were fighting with the clenched fist and lightning bolt as their motive, but do you then argue that the ends justify the means in every situation?

 

Angron, who had always held misgivings about the martial honour of the Emperor following the loss of his slave army after D'eshea, had this ratified by Horus when he saw the hard fought winnings of the Legions being for nothing as they were sold down the river by the beaurocrats of the Imperium who followed in their stead. I think history has shown us that peoples will rebel against perceived oppresion - even if you decide that in hindsight this decision was built upon an incorrect premise (that the marines of the Great Crusade had fought and died only to be made redundant after their work was done), at the time no doubt Angron thought he was acting in their interests when he decided to follow Horus, and I don't think you can view it as some kind of 'personal failing' on his part - all of the signs were already there, and its arguable that ultimately this would always have been the outcome.

 

Just my skittering thoughts on this matter :rolleyes:

[shamen]

it is possible that angron was worshipping khone from the moment he first killed in the arena, just never had any idea he was, cos it is well established that most warriors, soldiers and murders all gain the attention of khorne at some point in there career. now if we presume that it was indeed the chaos gods who scattered the incubation chambers, then it can also be presumed that khorne saw the potential in angron from an early age. so it may of been just that angron was going about killing things with his big axe, and before you can say "emperor save me" fell in to a trap that horus just made inescapable with a few twisted half truths and lies.

 

How does Khorne start whispering to you before you've been recruited by an agent of Chaos? The Imperium should have fallen to Chaos already if were possible for the Chaos gods and their daemons to influence people who who merely manifest the appropriate emotions but haven't been in contact with a Chaos artifact or been recruited by a follower of Chaos.

 

you missed the point i was making, just by killing in battle angron and every other living being in the universe in someway is worshipping or adding to the power of khorne. just cos you dont know your doing it dont mean to say it is any less effective, the whole reason khorne came in to being was because of the nature of the material universe towards conflict. which and im not 100% sure on this makes khorne the oldest of the chaos gods, its even stated that khorne was old when the first humans started fighting between each other on old terra, they didnt know about him and yet they fed his lust for battle and death just as effectively as any world eater berserker or agent of chaos.

 

and i know your going to ask where my source is and i cant remember exactly where ive seen it, but some of my arguement can be backed up by slaves to darkness and the lost and the damned books. though if anyone can correct me on this then you have my humble thanks B)

[Tutteman]

for the Ultra's SO lance armed BB? for a codex chapter, they seem to aquire a lot of non codex things.

Yeah, I would put that down in the same vein as the Tyrannic War Veterans. Some GW author thinks the Ultramarines should have special stuff and in the process ignores their basic theme. It is a shame, really. But then the BFG Ultramarines have fought against several Hive Fleets between Behemoth and Kraken that were not actually there, so perhaps that is sort of an "alternate 40K" universe? :(

(Descends into giggles at the idea of Ultramarine ships firing at random bits of space, screaming about non existant boarders on the vox while ImpNav ships look on in bemusement...)

[Jeefrica Jenkins]

Emperors Children... Why? because Fulgrim is a fairy who is overly concerned with looking pretty in his purple armor, that Ferrus would have just ripped HIS head off with his bare metally hands.

 

...Word

[DarkAngels/SpaceWolves...]

Actually all of them did, dont get me wrong i love the Space Marines all of em but a few failed... here's a list y

 

 

Dark Angels- Lion El' Johnson the great tactician, can't read people???? :P?

 

Emperors Children-they turned to chaos because they liked :cussty music

 

Iron Warriors- just mad cuz Rogal Dorn opened his big mouth

 

White Scars-- haven't barely been mentioned much so .....

 

Space Wolves- probably the least but then again no major involvement in the novels

 

Imperial Fists- they were in it for like what? a couple chapters?

 

Night Lords- ??? :lol:

 

Blood Angels-emo vampire cough cough

 

Iron Hands- Ferrus manus is a bitch he got owned

 

World Eaters-- they need prozac

 

Ultramarines-have been anything but ultra

 

Death Gaurd- they kinda just go with it

 

Thousand Sons- its like his dad told him not to use his mustang but he wrecked it telling on his brother

 

Luna Wolves- the brotherhood thing.... kinda fail

 

Word Bearers- super christians- trying to convert people but falling behind on the times....

 

Salamanders- we like firrrreeee... thats all we do

 

Raven Gaurd- not mentioned really like others that i forgot but their Primarch shoulda listened to the Geneva Convention

 

Alpha Legion--- ill be honest i was lost for abou 75% of the book no :cussing clue what was happening, then they were told to join Horus so that he'd win, but ironically he doesnt so :cuss?

 

Emperor---- come on dude he brought a :cussing massive demonic army nearly destroyed 3 legions and ur gonna hold back????? :cussing tard

[dynamicspartan]

Alpha Legion--- ill be honest i was lost for abou 75% of the book no :cussing clue what was happening, then they were told to join Horus so that he'd win, but ironically he doesnt so :angry:?

Actually Alpharious and Omegon where told to join Horus so he would fail. If they remained loyal he would win and chaos would rain. But like any primarch loyalty to the emperor before a vision that everyone knows is true.

[Wolf Lord Hallbjorn]

Alpha Legion--- ill be honest i was lost for abou 75% of the book no :cussing clue what was happening, then they were told to join Horus so that he'd win, but ironically he doesnt so :cuss?

Actually Alpharious and Omegon where told to join Horus so he would fail. If they remained loyal he would win and chaos would rain. But like any primarch loyalty to the emperor before a vision that everyone knows is true.

 

Let's not forget that he/they learned this from xenos. An eldar farseer, if i'm not mistaken. The eldar love to preach about how humanity feeds chaos when it was their race that were responsible for Slaanesh being what it is now. As many shout to me after such is said, yes, they have "learned from their mistake and changed", but that doesn't change what happened. The entire vision was based on the theory that humanity feeds chaos with ambition, greed, excess of all kinds, war, etc. Humanity is far from the only sentient race in the galaxy that feeds chaos. Humanity dying off would certainly cut off a large flow of power to chaos, but it would not completely annihilate it.

 

As for which legion disappointed me most, it would be the Emperor's Children. More than the legion itself, I have nothing but loathing for Fulgrim. He picks up some xeno-weapon that's been corrupted by chaos, listens to the daemon trapped within it, betrays the Emperor, fights Ferrus Manus, and then in his final moment of clarity he completely gives up and lets the daemon force him to a corner of his own mind. What a spineless douchebag. The legions themselves don't really disappoint me as much as their respective primarchs. Lorgar and Horus are high on the list as well.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Alpha Legion--- ill be honest i was lost for abou 75% of the book no :cussing clue what was happening, then they were told to join Horus so that he'd win, but ironically he doesnt so :D?

Actually Alpharious and Omegon where told to join Horus so he would fail. If they remained loyal he would win and chaos would rain. But like any primarch loyalty to the emperor before a vision that everyone knows is true.

 

And to be even more precise, the Cabal knows that if Horus wins, then it'll be better in the long run. However, we don't know if they saw how Horus could win, and it seems they just resorted to the default "give more men" strategy. For all we know, the Alpha Legion staying on the side of the Emperor could have resulted in a tragic loss for the Imperials.

[randian]

And to be even more precise, the Cabal knows that if Horus wins, then it'll be better in the long run.

How does the Cabal "know" that? By using psychic powers which are highly susceptible to Chaotic taint. The Cabal were ignorant fools if they didn't know that the Chaos gods and powerful daemons can influence the visions received by a psyker.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

How does the Cabal "know" that? By using psychic powers which are highly susceptible to Chaotic taint. The Cabal were ignorant fools if they didn't know that the Chaos gods and powerful daemons can influence the visions received by a psyker.

 

"Can". Not "will". The stronger-willed you are, the less likely the Chaos Gods can influence you. Unfortunately, GW went and made it official fluff that every tricksy pixie Farseer is strong-willed.

[Pacific81]

Aye, but presumably the weaker willed ones are stuck for eternity swinging from a door frame and having their feet tickled by Slaanesh.

[Lord_Caerolion]

And to be even more precise, the Cabal knows that if Horus wins, then it'll be better in the long run.

How does the Cabal "know" that? By using psychic powers which are highly susceptible to Chaotic taint. The Cabal were ignorant fools if they didn't know that the Chaos gods and powerful daemons can influence the visions received by a psyker.

 

Knowing something doesn't imply correctness. People in the Middle Ages knew the sun revolved around the earth, but that didn't make them correct. Regardless of pedantics, the Cabal saw a future in which Horus won the Heresy, and which led to the destruction of Chaos. What can therefore be said is that they didn't see how Horus won, but tried to act anyway.

 

My favourite interpretation is that the Cabals vision of the future was influenced by Chaos, who knew that if Horus won they would be destroyed, so they engineered things to have Horus lose, but still maim the Emperor in the process.

[Freakiq]

Hmm, according to the Ultra haters in this thread the Ultramarines legion should have been stationed on Terra to protect it from its allies. ;)

 

Makes perfect sense...

[The Emperor's Champion]

Ultra haters almost automatically don't make sense. I don't recommend expecting too much from them.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Ultra haters almost automatically don't make sense. I don't recommend expecting too much from them.

 

and Ultra fanboys? ;)

 

i dotn care much either way, as any fault of the ultramarines arent truely their fault, but mat wards for screwing up so badly.

 

WLK

[The Emperor's Champion]

We HAVE TO make sense or we're not gonna win any arguments. :D

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

We HAVE TO make sense or we're not gonna win any arguments. :P

 

trust me, your not.

 

:D

 

WLK

[The Emperor's Champion]

I know I make perfect sense, so I'll assume you mean winning arguments. And yea, that's usually true, but I expect no less. It adheres to the axioms that govern the world.