Which Legion dissapointed you the most?

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Also, Dorn deals with his failures by sinking into depression and going on a penitent crusade. Guilliman deals with his by making everyone else do things his way. That is why Guilliman gets more crap - because Dorn feels he could have (and should have) done better, while Guilliman seems to feel he did just fine. You can argue which reaction is more appropriate to the situation, but Guilliman's is far less sympathetic.

Aside from the fact that it is a misrepresentation of events, based on a personal disliking for the character, it is a somewhat amusing comment. It' slike saying "Guilliman united Ultramar and made it into a 40K-utopia where the people have peace and wealth..." and then adding "...because he wanted everyone to live their lives his way" to desperately find some fault in it.

 

It doesn't seem like a misrepresentation to me. While Dorn is grieving for the Emperor and taking his anger out on the traitors, Guilliman is being highly pragmatic and has put his grief aside for the good of the Imperium. It's this lack of obvious grief that seems to cause trouble and fuel the perception that Guilliman wanted power for himself.

[Legatus]

I am not sensing the pragmatism in "Guilliman deals with his by making everyone else do things his way. That is why Guilliman gets more crap - because Dorn feels he could have (and should have) done better, while Guilliman seems to feel he did just fine." Looks more like a selfish and ignorant move. That's not exactly how the background description puts it... ;)

[Tutteman]

I like the argument Dorn should have seen it coming. All of the Primarchs got blindsided, thats what was so shocking, their brothers turned on them. They might not have liked each other all the time but I doubt Dorn assume the IW would turn simply cos he didn't like their Primarch?

 

Gulliman, I don't really blame him, and something to point out... his way worked didn't it? Not the best way but hey ;)

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

Uh...Dorn is responsible for Manus attacking early and four legions secretly being traitors? Really?

 

Furthermore, the Emperor can't notice these people turning traitor but Dorn is supposed to work it out by himself? Uh...right.

Yes, Dorn is responsible for Manus attacking early. Why? Because he put him in charge. If he wanted Horus dealt with the "right" way then he should have lead the attack himself. Also i think Dorn VASTLY underestimated Horus. Like Horus would just sit some ware and let you attack him with a force he could not beat. Horus was the WARMASTER not some petty planetary Governor who had ambitions of carving out some small empire. Also again, you might be able to say the IW, AL, WB turning traitor could be a supprise but to say the same for the Night Lords is just having your head in the sand.

How is defending Terra from over five legions when all you have is three some kind of failure? Horus engaged the Emperor one-on-one because he didn't expect to break into the Palace before reinforcements arrived for the loyalists. Dorn was holding out successfully.

 

Also, Dorn deals with his failures by sinking into depression and going on a penitent crusade. Guilliman deals with his by making everyone else do things his way. That is why Guilliman gets more crap - because Dorn feels he could have (and should have) done better, while Guilliman seems to feel he did just fine. You can argue which reaction is more appropriate to the situation, but Guilliman's is far less sympathetic.

5-3 odds in a defense is pretty good. And if he was supposed to be the ultimate defense guru as he said he was i dont see why he should have had any problem. 5-3 Legions with the Custodes and the Sisters..... seems like closer to 5-4. Also it is a Fail because at the end the Emp ended up in the Golden Throne. His #1 job was to keep the Emp safe.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

I am not sensing the pragmatism in "Guilliman deals with his by making everyone else do things his way. That is why Guilliman gets more crap - because Dorn feels he could have (and should have) done better, while Guilliman seems to feel he did just fine." Looks more like a selfish and ignorant move. That's not exactly how the background description puts it... ;)

 

No, no - Guilliman is the one being pragmatic by putting the Imperium's house in order whilst Dorn is grieving. It's just that that can be interpreted as Guilliman being uncaring.

 

Yes, Dorn is responsible for Manus attacking early. Why? Because he put him in charge.

 

I don't remember that. The scene with Manus, Corax and Vulkan seems to me like none of them is officially "in charge", but with Dorn absent they're just trying to cooperate. However, with Manus being really eager to get to grips with Fulgrim, Corax and Vulkan end up backing him up in going in with the seven Legions without Dorn because they know that if they wait for Dorn, Manus will just go in anyway with or without them.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Also, Dorn deals with his failures by sinking into depression and going on a penitent crusade. Guilliman deals with his by making everyone else do things his way. That is why Guilliman gets more crap - because Dorn feels he could have (and should have) done better, while Guilliman seems to feel he did just fine. You can argue which reaction is more appropriate to the situation, but Guilliman's is far less sympathetic.

Aside from the fact that it is a misrepresentation of events, based on a personal disliking for the character, it is a somewhat amusing comment. It' slike saying "Guilliman united Ultramar and made it into a 40K-utopia where the people have peace and wealth..." and then adding "...because he wanted everyone to live their lives his way" to desperately find some fault in it. :(

 

I would argue that even if it had been Sanguinius or Jonson who had been tasked with reorganising the Imperial military after the heresy, the Legions would still have been divided. It was more dictated by circumstances, and not so much by Guillimans perception of the optimal size of a Space Marine army.

 

IMO, Guilliman does not get grief from the 40K community because of the excellent job he did with Ultramar, the size and power of his legion - which is also attributable to his management skills or even that he compiled the Codex:Astartes as a template for others to follow.

I believe that what gets up people's noses about him is that A] after not being involved during the Siege of Terra (which we know was because of Horus's machinations to get the UM away from threatening his coup - which is a sign of respect for Guilliman and UM prowess from the number 1 Primarch) he B] comes along and insists that his way is right and labels Dorn - who has been loyal through and through, and master-minded the defence during the Siege - as a Traitor just because Dorn didn't do what Guilliman felt was the right thing to do. Right according to who? - the guy who wrote the book, which seems highly arrogant and that Dorn was labelled because he wouldn't do what Guilliman wanted makes RG seem like a brat on a power trip.

 

Was Chapters inevitable? maybe. That RG presented it as the only option and flamed those who didn't play ball is what :cuss people about him.

 

I am not sensing the pragmatism in "Guilliman deals with his by making everyone else do things his way. That is why Guilliman gets more crap - because Dorn feels he could have (and should have) done better, while Guilliman seems to feel he did just fine." Looks more like a selfish and ignorant move. That's not exactly how the background description puts it... :rolleyes:

 

Dorn's response was not great. He was swept along by emotions at a time when clear thinking was needed. He lost hold off what had gained him success throughout his career. Was his emotional response reasonable because of the circumstance? - Yes. But he did not serve the Imperium in the best way in doing so. So I think he did drop the ball on that one. But he still crushed traitors in his rage, so not so terrible after all - just not the best move.

 

Uh...Dorn is responsible for Manus attacking early and four legions secretly being traitors? Really?

 

Furthermore, the Emperor can't notice these people turning traitor but Dorn is supposed to work it out by himself? Uh...right.

Yes, Dorn is responsible for Manus attacking early. Why? Because he put him in charge. If he wanted Horus dealt with the "right" way then he should have lead the attack himself. Also i think Dorn VASTLY underestimated Horus. Like Horus would just sit some ware and let you attack him with a force he could not beat. Horus was the WARMASTER not some petty planetary Governor who had ambitions of carving out some small empire. Also again, you might be able to say the IW, AL, WB turning traitor could be a supprise but to say the same for the Night Lords is just having your head in the sand.

How is defending Terra from over five legions when all you have is three some kind of failure? Horus engaged the Emperor one-on-one because he didn't expect to break into the Palace before reinforcements arrived for the loyalists. Dorn was holding out successfully.

 

Also, Dorn deals with his failures by sinking into depression and going on a penitent crusade. Guilliman deals with his by making everyone else do things his way. That is why Guilliman gets more crap - because Dorn feels he could have (and should have) done better, while Guilliman seems to feel he did just fine. You can argue which reaction is more appropriate to the situation, but Guilliman's is far less sympathetic.

5-3 odds in a defense is pretty good. And if he was supposed to be the ultimate defense guru as he said he was i dont see why he should have had any problem. 5-3 Legions with the Custodes and the Sisters..... seems like closer to 5-4. Also it is a Fail because at the end the Emp ended up in the Golden Throne. His #1 job was to keep the Emp safe.

 

So you are saying that Dorn was so good that he was Horus's equal and would not have made any mistakes against the Warmaster or are you saying that he would have at least done a better job than Ferrus - who was outraged by the betrayal and had a grudge to settle with Fulgrim....??

 

Imagine if the 4 Traitors (the rear guard) turned out not to be traitors. Dorn chooses not to send in the NL because of his run in and beat down by Night Haunter. Night Haunter learns of Dorn's discrimination and, due to already being on the edge, joins Horus as Dorn's insult was the last straw for the feeling-victimised-Night Haunter.

Dorn assumed that his brothers were loyal. The Emperor did too. Dorn was big enough a man to let Night Haunter and Legion participate in bringing the Traitor Horus to Imperial justice and not have his personal prejudice that Night Haunter was a jerk sway him.

Good management, in real life, is not about building a cadre of cronies around you who say yes to you and like spending their free time drinking beer and fishing as you happen to like beer and fishing.

Good management is using all people that circumstance has given you to the best of their potential.

Imagine the 4 Traitors stay true. Horus is crushed. The Night Lords shine and their brutal methods are vindicated when the heads of Horus & Friends are delivered to the Emperor. A catharsis happens when Dorn admits he miss judged Night Haunter and asks for forgiveness. Night Haunter is shaken. He realises that if the seemingly arrogant Dorn would humble himself, then Night Haunter is loved and respected amongst his peers. Night Haunter warms to his brothers and becomes a steadfast ally in heart and not just deed to the Imperium.

 

I am not sure the Custodes and the Sisters combine to be the equal of one Marine Legion. Also Horus had Daemons on his side. The Bloodthirster Sanguinius fought was his equal in cc. Sanguinius had to fight a dozen lesser or "normal" Bloodthirsters too.

 

Dorn did manage to keep keep the Traitors at bay. So he didn't fail there.

 

The Emperor is not beholden to any man or Primarch. What the Emperor wants he does. Had he remained on Terra he would not have died. Horus offered the Emperor a chance to strike him down, by lowering his shields, because Horus felt that the DA & SW would have swept him away. The Emperor took that chance, that gamble, and failed.

The Emperor, Dorn and Sanguinius all beemed to Horus's flagship. The power of the gods is what scrambled them from one another.

So it was the Emperor who gambled and lost. Dorn is absolved from responsibility because the Emperor trumps him. Dorn did not even "let" the Emperor die, he wasn't even there due to no fault of his own.

 

He was keeping the Emperor safe. The Emperor left that place of safety. That is not Dorn's failure.

[Rain]

Not sure if this has been brought up, but the loyalists were really not nearly as outnumbered in the Siege of Terra as people try to make them out to be to glorify them. They had the Imperial Fists, the White Scars, and the Blood Angels all actively defending as well as custodes, human troops etc. The traitors had really only the Iron Warriors and World Eaters along with attached titan legions attacking the wall of the palace, and more or less just the World Eaters storming the breach once it was made as Perturabo saw it beneath his men to send them into a meat grinder.

 

The Sons of Horus were held in reserve, the Thousand Sons were trying to break psychic wards around the palace but were otherwise unengaged, the Death Guard were defending the spaceport to allow troop landings to proceed, and the Emperor's Children were off killing civilians. If anything, it's the traitors that faced steep odds in the siege.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Not sure if this has been brought up, but the loyalists were really not nearly as outnumbered in the Siege of Terra as people try to make them out to be to glorify them. They had the Imperial Fists, the White Scars, and the Blood Angels all actively defending as well as custodes, human troops etc. The traitors had really only the Iron Warriors and World Eaters along with attached titan legions attacking the wall of the palace, and more or less just the World Eaters storming the breach once it was made as Perturabo saw it beneath his men to send them into a meat grinder.

 

The Sons of Horus were held in reserve, the Thousand Sons were trying to break psychic wards around the palace but were otherwise unengaged, the Death Guard were defending the spaceport to allow troop landings to proceed, and the Emperor's Children were off killing civilians. If anything, it's the traitors that faced steep odds in the siege.

 

lets not forget the 40 Companies of Word Bearers left on station in the Sol Syetem to keep up apperances, the number of Traitors in the human troops that garrisoned around Terra, as well as the Ad Mech forces that sided with Horus and purged their loyalist brethen from Mars.

 

Also, while the Blood Angels were present, they just left from being badly mauled in the Signus CLuster, Sanguinius himself had been gravely wounded, and the BA left most of their dead behind in the rush to return to Terra.

And the Adeptus Custodes and Sisters of Silence were not present for the opening through middle stages of the siege, as they were defending the Warp Gate below the Imperial Palace. Only when the Emperor had somewhat stablizied that he allowed them to contribute to defending the Palace itself.

 

Horus wasnt a idiot. He wouldnt have attacked the greatest Human bastion in the known galaxy without overwhelming force. It just so happned that Dorn and his defences managed to bleed out Horus's attack long enough for a dangerous gamble to be made.

 

WLK

[Marshal Rohr]

5-3 odds in a defense is pretty good. And if he was supposed to be the ultimate defense guru as he said he was i dont see why he should have had any problem. 5-3 Legions with the Custodes and the Sisters..... seems like closer to 5-4. Also it is a Fail because at the end the Emp ended up in the Golden Throne. His #1 job was to keep the Emp safe.

 

Your lack of comprehension is your undoing. Dorn was charged to defend Terra, not the Emperor. The Imperial Fists were the Emperor's personal Legion, not his bodyguards. The Custodes are his bodyguards. Dorn only saw the fall of the Emperor as his fault because of his mentality, not because it was actually his fault.

[Octavulg]

Legatus:

Aside from the fact that it is a misrepresentation of events, based on a personal disliking for the character, it is a somewhat amusing comment. It' slike saying "Guilliman united Ultramar and made it into a 40K-utopia where the people have peace and wealth..." and then adding "...because he wanted everyone to live their lives his way" to desperately find some fault in it. rolleyes.gif

 

Which would be a consistent interpretation of the character of a man who called Dorn a traitor when Dorn disagreed with him about the organization of the Space Marines and the man who suggested that Alpharius' legion should be organized along Ultramarine precepts (and the man who let his personal chapter keep an empire of eight worlds, even though Space Marines holding too much power is a clear risk to the Imperium...).

 

Guilliman is portrayed as a very capable man who is convinced of the rightness of his ideas throughout 40K fluff. This doesn't mean his ideas are inherently wrong, it means that he's a jerk. He's not necessarily wrong - it's just that people like him less than Dorn, because Dorn's reactions are more sympathetic even when Guilliman's may be the better course of action in the situation. His reaction to the Emperor's death is to assume leadership of the Imperial military and, later on, dictate to the other Primarchs what they should do with their legions (using a book whose authorship is usually ascribed solely to him, even though many others contributed, likely including many of the Primarchs). It may be the right thing to do. It still comes across as selfish and arrogant.

 

Lord Lorne Walkier:

Yes, Dorn is responsible for Manus attacking early. Why? Because he put him in charge. If he wanted Horus dealt with the "right" way then he should have lead the attack himself. Also i think Dorn VASTLY underestimated Horus. Like Horus would just sit some ware and let you attack him with a force he could not beat. Horus was the WARMASTER not some petty planetary Governor who had ambitions of carving out some small empire. Also again, you might be able to say the IW, AL, WB turning traitor could be a supprise but to say the same for the Night Lords is just having your head in the sand.

 

Ah. So the Heresy is the Emperor's fault, because if he wanted the Great Crusade done the right way he should have lead it himself. Indeed, Dorn's faults are also the fault of the Emperor, because the Emperor put him in charge...

 

The whole Night Lords thing is massively inconsistent. Fluff from the IA series claims that the Night Lords were seen as loyal and already fighting as renegades by the time the Heresy broke out. Read the Night Lords IA sometime.

 

5-3 odds in a defense is pretty good. And if he was supposed to be the ultimate defense guru as he said he was i dont see why he should have had any problem. 5-3 Legions with the Custodes and the Sisters..... seems like closer to 5-4. Also it is a Fail because at the end the Emp ended up in the Golden Throne. His #1 job was to keep the Emp safe.

 

There were also some Word Bearers, a bunch of Titan Legions, an orbiting spacefleet, some traitors within the defenders. Also, I've always been under the impression that the loyalist legions at this point were somewhat smaller than the traitor ones, a supposition which later posters seem to reinforce.

 

And he didn't have any problem defending things. He won. Horus drops the shields on his battle-barge because he thinks reinforcements will reach Dorn before the Palace falls. I would hope Horus is a good enough general to make that call. The fact that the Emperor decided to personally attack Horus was the Emperor's decision, not Dorn. Unless you're going to argue that Dorn convinced the Emperor to lead that little assault?

 

Marshal_Wilhelm:

IMO, Guilliman does not get grief from the 40K community because of the excellent job he did with Ultramar, the size and power of his legion - which is also attributable to his management skills or even that he compiled the Codex:Astartes as a template for others to follow.

I believe that what gets up people's noses about him is that A] after not being involved during the Siege of Terra (which we know was because of Horus's machinations to get the UM away from threatening his coup - which is a sign of respect for Guilliman and UM prowess from the number 1 Primarch) he B] comes along and insists that his way is right and labels Dorn - who has been loyal through and through, and master-minded the defence during the Siege - as a Traitor just because Dorn didn't do what Guilliman felt was the right thing to do. Right according to who? - the guy who wrote the book, which seems highly arrogant and that Dorn was labelled because he wouldn't do what Guilliman wanted makes RG seem like a brat on a power trip.

 

He gets grief because he's the head of the Mary Sue Legion.

 

And because he's portrayed as a jerk a lot. He calls Dorn a traitor, fights with Alpharius, is basically a Republican Roman...people can connect the dots.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

@octavulg: should i be happy or insulted my previous post didnt get a mention in the above post? :P

 

WLK

[Octavulg]

Well, you were alluded to:

supposition which later posters seem to reinforce.

 

But being completely right is just so hard to comment on. :P

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

i've been called alot of things before in my life, but completely right is a first. :P

 

and yes, i must have missed that in the total win the rest of your post was made up.

 

WLK

[Rain]

@WLK

 

Again, according to canon sources (the first 3rd edition Chaos codex) only about one third of the human "hosts of the Imperium" sided with Horus, so sure there were traitors, but there were doubly as many that stood by the Emperor. I mentioned that the traitors had titan legions, but then so did the Imperials. Ok I give you that the BA were badly mauled, but they were really only facing ONE traitor legion once the walls were breached, the World Eaters, and by that point the WE were badly mauled as well as they kept charging the wall before it was breached by Perturabo.

 

And as for your argument for Horus not being stupid, it seems self-defeating to me, I mean wouldn't he have to be kind of incompetent to miscalculate so badly and think he had such overwhelming force and then get stuck in a quagmire? No, I think it came down to the fact that Horus knew he had long odds, and that they would become even longer if the forces of the Imperium were allowed time to consolidate and so he threw in his lot with the only chance of victory he had, knowing it would not be an easy battle to win but knowing that if he waited he would surely fail. Also he probably didn't count on the Emperor's Children not helping in the siege at all, and the Iron Warriors basically leaving after they breached the outer wall and going off to blow up things that they thought Dorn liked.

 

Honestly I liked the siege of the palace to going all in when short stacked with something like pocket eights in hold em. It's not a great hand, but you need to do it as the cost of waiting is a certain loss.

[Legatus]

Which would be a consistent interpretation of the character of a man who called Dorn a traitor when Dorn disagreed with him about the organization of the Space Marines and the man who suggested that Alpharius' legion should be organized along Ultramarine precepts (and the man who let his personal chapter keep an empire of eight worlds, even though Space Marines holding too much power is a clear risk to the Imperium...).

The dispute with Dorn was not about organisation, it was exclusively about limitation of army size. If you want to call that "organisation", then ok. But that was not "guillimans way", it was a direct result to the events of the heresy, and had Sanguinius still been alive and had been chosen as member of the High Lords in Guilliman's stead, he could just as well have decided that to limit power of individual Marine commanders would be a wise decision. But it was Guilliman who made that decision, and as it was his task to reorganise all imperial military, that decision was imperial decree. A decree which Dorn refused to follow.

The "heretic" might have been a bit much, though it was obviously refering to the High Lords role to interprete the will of the emperor. The "rebel" was not misplaced. Dorns initial "coward" certainly was.

 

Guilliman had an argument with Alpharius about tactics and ideology. Alpharius would then later undertake wasteful campaigns and in the end even betray the imperium just to prove his Legions prowess, so it seems blatantly obvious who was to blame for the discussion about tactics and ideology turning hostile.

 

Eight star systems worth of PDF are not "power" if one lacks the fleet to transport them. They can only be employed defensively without such a fleet. And only when the Imperial Navy comes to pick them up can they be shipped to far away stars to fight in the Imperial Guard.

Oh, that, and "a Space Marine Legion" >> "eight star systems of Guard".

 

 

Guilliman is portrayed as a very capable man who is convinced of the rightness of his ideas throughout 40K fluff.

The same could be said more or less about every Primarch, or even every commander. That Guilliman is pretty much vindicated by the status of the Ultramarines (and Space Marine Chapters in general) 10,000 years later does not help me perceive his confidence as "being a jerk" instead of just being gifted.

 

 

His reaction to the Emperor's death is to assume leadership of the Imperial military

You make that sound like it was solely Guillimans decision to take command, and that there was no council of the twelve most powerful men in the Imperium who accepted (nominated?) Guilliman for the job. That the job was absolutely neccessary to be done at that time does not make Guilliman seem all that selfish either.

 

 

and, later on, dictate to the other Primarchs what they should do with their legions

If you mean that he dictated that they should divide their Legions, then, yes. He did do that. If you mean that he dictated how their Companies and Squads should be organised, that he did not do.

 

 

And because he's portrayed as a jerk a lot.

I strongly contest the "a lot". You can cite the debate with Alpharius, but only if you disregard the likelihood that Alpharius was the one who couldn't keep the debate civil. How many other incidents are there to make it "a lot"?

[Grand Master Tyrak]

and the Iron Warriors basically leaving after they breached the outer wall and going off to blow up things that they thought Dorn liked.

 

Well, one of the Terran starports had been recaptured by the Loyalists, and they couldn't get their siege engines through the breach in the outer walls to fire on the Inner Palace (the Thousand Sons got that job instead). It's not that hard to think about where else they could be of use.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

@Rain

Looking back the sources i have on the Siege of Terra (the Index Astartes article and Collected Visions primarily, alongside various WD article), i have to mention that not a single loyalist unit defending Terra was at full strength:

Blood Angels, mauled at the Signis Cluster

Imperial Fists, divided into 3 forces, 1 stayed on Terra (untouched), 1 went to Mars and got mauled there, and 1 sent to investigate the Dropsite Massacre and mauled by Perturabo and his Iron Warriors

Adeptus Custodes and Sisters of Silence were hammered during their defence of the Webgate

The Imperial Army units are not mauled, but have a large number (hasnt been defined in any of my sources) turn their guns on each other.

 

Only the White Scars appear to be at/near full strength, as what damage they took in aiding the Wolves against the Alpha Legion isnt recorded. However, their strength is denied at the Imperial Palace as they re-took and held the Lion's Gate.

 

Now, back to Horus. Horus planned to have overwhelming force against the Loyalists and i believe he would have, had a few minor things gone differently...

1) Had the Alpha Legion delayed the Space Wolves longer, or suceeded in destroying them. The ambush went according to Horus's plan, and would have been successful, had the Wolves not found help at "an unexpected quarter". Now whoever this allies are (and i have never seen their true identity in print) their aiding the Wolves was unforseeable. Horus could only plan with the resources and knowledge he had, not our knowledge that the Wolves would find allies. If the Wolves were destroyed or atleast prevented from rushing to Terra, Horus would have been able to redeploy the Alpha Legion or at the very least, had one thorn in hsi paw removed.

2) Had Horus better explained to the Traitor Primarchs their roles in the Siege. I am not really sure as to why he didnt do this, i can only guess because at thsi point we see nothing from his point of view. If Perturabo and Fulgrim had stayed with the Siege as Horus believed them to do, then i have no doubt that the Palace would have been destroyed. What Horus failed to do is to truely understand the Primarchs under his command...I would have promised Perturabo first right to attacking Dorn, and then lets see what carnage the emo freak could unleash.

3) Had the Word Bearers achieved their mission at Calith. Had they done what they were supposed to, Guilliman would have never been a threat. So i guess complete suprise and momentum wasnt enough for the Word Bearers...

 

So looking at these brief reasons, i can blame #2 on Horus, but not #1 or 3. And none of these mistakes add up to Horus being a bone-head, atleast not when judged fairly.

 

and about "only" 1/3 of the Imperial Army turning traitor on Terra...play a game of W40k, say 1500 pts. have a flank being held by 500 points turn on your army and become under your enemies control. They'll be in a perfect position to gut your tanks, defenses and cause havoc amomgst your men. So while they might not be the most numerous of your forces, to write them off it a large mistake.

 

WLK

[Octavulg]

The dispute with Dorn was not about organisation, it was exclusively about limitation of army size. If you want to call that "organisation", then ok. But that was not "guillimans way", it was a direct result to the events of the heresy, and had Sanguinius still been alive and had been chosen as member of the High Lords in Guilliman's stead, he could just as well have decided that to limit power of individual Marine commanders would be a wise decision. But it was Guilliman who made that decision, and as it was his task to reorganise all imperial military, that decision was imperial decree. A decree which Dorn refused to follow.

 

A task he, according to the IA: Ultramarines, took upon himself: "Roboute Guilliman vowed that the Emperor's realm would not fall and took it upon himself to hold it together. " IA: Raven Guard, says "Roboute Guilliman, Primarch of the Ultramarines, became the de facto head of the Imperium's armed forces..." Note the term "de facto".

 

Furthermore, as I have previously mentioned, Guilliman presents the Codex Astartes as a whole, not as "oh, split your legions". He presents the Codex, not the idea of splitting the legions. You may argue that the emphasis was on splitting the legions, and the fact that various chapters retained their particular methods proves this. To which I'd point out the fact that the only reason there wasn't another civil war was because Dorn relented and agreed that splitting the legions was necessary (see IA: Black Templars). It seems at least as possible that it was a compromise, especially in light of the fact that Guilliman had previously tried to make another legion follow his methods (the whole Alpha Legion thing).

 

The "heretic" might have been a bit much, though it was obviously refering to the High Lords role to interprete the will of the emperor. The "rebel" was not misplaced. Dorns initial "coward" certainly was.

 

Last I checked, the Emperor created some Space Marine Legions, while Guilliman's Codex Astartes was his pet project. Explain to me how this isn't Guilliman taking advantage of an opportunity to enforce his pet theories on others, regardless of the justification he uses. Replacing a system the Emperor created with something else is questionable. Doing it with your pet project from previous years is pretty much indefensible.

 

Guilliman had an argument with Alpharius about tactics and ideology. Alpharius would then later undertake wasteful campaigns and in the end even betray the imperium just to prove his Legions prowess, so it seems blatantly obvious who was to blame for the discussion about tactics and ideology turning hostile.

 

Alternately, the blame might lie with the one who is sufficiently stupid to suggest that another Primarch's legion should reform to use his tactics, then tells that Primarch that his Legion will never measure up. Y'know, the one who starts the fight, then adds fuel to it. At best, Guilliman comes across as completely tactless there.

 

Furthermore, the whole "proving his prowess" angle is only a component. There's also the fact that Alpharius was much, much closer to Horus than to the Emperor, and was basically his sidekick. Which seems rather more of a contributing factor.

 

Eight star systems worth of PDF are not "power" if one lacks the fleet to transport them. They can only be employed defensively without such a fleet. And only when the Imperial Navy comes to pick them up can they be shipped to far away stars to fight in the Imperial Guard.

Oh, that, and "a Space Marine Legion" >> "eight star systems of Guard".

 

True. I'm just pointing out that apparently having a power base eight times that of the other Chapters is OK. It leaves one with the definite impression that Guilliman thought HIS legion was trustworthy/special.

 

The same could be said more or less about every Primarch, or even every commander. That Guilliman is pretty much vindicated by the status of the Ultramarines (and Space Marine Chapters in general) 10,000 years later does not help me perceive his confidence as "being a jerk" instead of just being gifted.

 

Because no great leaders of history were jerks and yet are still remembered as capable leaders. You can be right and still be a jerk (McArthur, off the top of my head).

 

You make that sound like it was solely Guillimans decision to take command, and that there was no council of the twelve most powerful men in the Imperium who accepted (nominated?) Guilliman for the job. That the job was absolutely neccessary to be done at that time does not make Guilliman seem all that selfish either.

 

Well, at least two IAs say that it basically was Guilliman's decision to take command (though it seems not improbable that his decision received some official confirmation eventually). Still, the mentioned IAs were quite clear.

 

If you mean that he dictated that they should divide their Legions, then, yes. He did do that. If you mean that he dictated how their Companies and Squads should be organised, that he did not do.

 

The Codex Astartes is a whole. He presents it as "the future of the Legiones Astartes". He doesn't present the division as the future, but the Codex as a whole.

 

The reasons why things turn out differently are hard to determine, but it seems more likely to me that they agreed to compromise after calling each other heretics than that everyone got that worked up that easily.

 

I strongly contest the "a lot". You can cite the debate with Alpharius, but only if you disregard the likelihood that Alpharius was the one who couldn't keep the debate civil. How many other incidents are there to make it "a lot"?

 

The idea that a 'debate' which is opened by the suggestion that another Primarch's legion be reformed on Guilliman's personal dictates and closes on the note that that other Legion can never measure up to the Ultramarines anyway is civil at all seems questionable.

 

There's the bit where he calls Dorn a traitor. And the bit where he presents the Codex Astartes unilaterally. Which considering that's basically our only examples of Guilliman's interaction with people who are even close to being his social/military equals, and considering he treats them as his inferiors every time, I think it shows us all we need of Guilliman's personality. Show me another documented interaction with a Primarch. It mentions that he apparently respected/whatever Dorn, hence his presence in the Hall of Heroes, and look at how Dorn and he interact.

 

Oh, and he's Roman. Seriously. That right there would be enough proof.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

There's the bit where he calls Dorn a traitor.

 

Remember that Dorn in return called him a coward. Whilst that's clearly the result of the argument (his depiction elsewhere, most notably the HH series, doesn't follow that line), and his hot-headedness only appears after the Siege of the Emperor's Palace (the Iron Cage incident is another example), Guilliman hasn't appeared in other sources yet. The judgment of Guilliman's character and behaviour may well hang on how he appears in the HH series (a scary thought at best).

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

I would liek to point out, as a pure fanboy, that Russ told Guilliman where he can insert the Codex Astartes...

 

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

and i think octavulg is hitting the nail on the head here, especially here:

There's the bit where he calls Dorn a traitor. And the bit where he presents the Codex Astartes unilaterally. Which considering that's basically our only examples of Guilliman's interaction with people who are even close to being his social/military equals, and considering he treats them as his inferiors every time, I think it shows us all we need of Guilliman's personality. Show me another documented interaction with a Primarch. It mentions that he apparently respected/whatever Dorn, hence his presence in the Hall of Heroes, and look at how Dorn and he interact

 

WLK

[Marshal Wilhelm]

The breaking up of the Legions always smacked of punishing the good kids with detention because the bad kids skipped class to me.

The horse already bolted and it is the loyal horse that gets the whipping.

 

UM Codex 2nd ed 1993 pg 10 reads "The Adeptus Terra has never felt it necessary to enforce the Codex absolutely. Indeed it is doubtful if it could."

That sounds to me like the Codex IS THE LAW but the Authorities feel it is easier to be loose with it. So is it guidance?

 

C:BT pg 6 reads "For the Space Marines, these rules were laid down in the Codex Astartes...." Rules.

 

Further down "Rogal Dorn, who had coordinated the defence of Holy Terra, refused to have his Legion broken down into smaller Chapters, stating it was his sacred duty to protect the Emperor and that he could not afford to split his forces across the Imperium. Dorn called Guilliman a coward, for the UM had not participated in the defence of the Imperial Palace, while Guilliman accused Dorn of being a rebel for refusing the dictates within his Codex Astartes...."

 

Rebel; someone who resists authority, control or convention. Whose "authority"? ~ a peer's?

 

Dictates; lay down authoritatively, prescribe.

 

Authoritatively; proceeding from an official source and requiring compliance or obedience.

 

Further down still "When the IF were violently persecuted for their supposed heresies...."

 

Suppose; assumed on evidence but without proof.

 

Heresy; belief or opinion contrary with orthodox belief.

 

So how exactly had this not become the Roboute Guilliman show?

 

*I like Roboute and I like UM, but if you think that RG didn't overstep the mark, well, I think I have enough evidence to counter that position successfully.

[Lord_Caerolion]

The breaking up of the Legions always smacked of punishing the good kids with detention because the bad kids skipped class to me.

The horse already bolted and it is the loyal horse that gets the whipping.

 

Actually, it was more a case of one horse bolting, so you build a bigger fence around the one you have left.

 

Aside from that, I completely agree.

[Octavulg]

The horses who stood in front of the other horses, said "don't you dare leave", and were nearly kicked to death for their trouble...

[Legatus]

A task he, according to the IA: Ultramarines, took upon himself: "Roboute Guilliman vowed that the Emperor's realm would not fall and took it upon himself to hold it together. " IA: Raven Guard, says "Roboute Guilliman, Primarch of the Ultramarines, became the de facto head of the Imperium's armed forces..." Note the term "de facto".

The IA: Ultramarines passage in more complete form:

 

"Half the Space Marine Legions had sided with Horus and the remaining loyalist Legions had been badly mauled in the fighting. There were desparately few Space Marines, and never were they more needed. The enemies of Mankind, sensing the weakness of the Imperium, prepared to attack, but Roboute Guilliman vowed that the Emperor's realm would not fall and took it upon himself to hold it together. He dispatched his Legion throughout the galaxy to stem the tide of invasion and unrest, holding the fragile Imperium together through a time of great danger. Macragge provided recruits as fast as it could, and soon the Ultramarines accounted for more than half of the Space Marines un the field. After almost a decade of total war, stability was restored to the galaxy and the philosophies of the Ultramarines' way of war had permeated almost every Legion."

 

So what he "took upon himself" was not overall command and restructuring the Imperial military, it refers specifically to the Ultramarines' actions to defend the wounded Imperium after the heresy.

 

The final sentense was not needed for context, but I quoted it as well because it suggests that during that time the other Legions were naturally adopting a lot of the Ultramarines' doctrines. During that time, the other Legions would often have fought alongside Ultramarines, perhaps more so than they did during the crusade. The Index Astartes Iron Warriors mentions how the Imperial Fists supported the Ultramarines in a decade long campaign to destroy Iron Warrior bases, for example.

And all that was before Guilliman presented the Codex Astartes, which is described next in the Ultramarines Index Astartes:

 

"The Codex Astartes laid down the tactical doctrines of the Imperium's fighting forces and was to grow and evolve over the millennia into a massive tome that detailed everything from battlefield stratagems to uniform markings for various squad types. The most immediate change was the decree that each Legion would be split into smaller units known as Chapters. (...) No longer would the power of an entire Space Marine Legion rest in one man's hands. Some Legions resisted this change and refused Guilliman's Order, but when the matter threatened to erupt into a new and bloodier civil war, they eventually relented."

 

The Index Astartes Black Templars is even more specific about the nature of the dispute:

 

"At the end of the Heresy, the Primarch Roboute Guilliman of the Ultramarines Legion devised a military organisation that would spread the power of the Legiones Astartes, Imperial Navy and Imperial Army across the galaxy, so no longer would one individual wield the power of an entire Legion again. For the Space Marines, these rules were laid down in the Codex Astartes, a mighty tome that also dealt with unit organisation, markings, tactical doctrines and all other aspects of the Marines' structure. Rogal Dorn, Primarch of the Imperial Fists, responsible for the defence of Terra itself, refused to have his Legion broken down into much smaller Chapters, stating that it was his sacred duty to protect the Emperor and he could not afford to split his forces across the Imperium."

 

Since the dispute was entirely about the division into Chapters, that means that either the other Primarchs had no objection to a mandatory reorganise their new Chapters according to the Codex Astartes doctrines, or that the organisational doctrines were mere guidelines and not mandatory.

 

I am not sure what the "de facto" is supposed to mean. According to other sources such as the Codex Ultramarines he officially became the first Lord Commander of the Imperium, only man to ever command the entirety of the Imperium's Forces. There was no "de facto" about it. Maybe I am just not familiar with the exact meaning of that phrase.

BTW, since I know what you want to say, ;) that was (at least in the sequence of the background description) before Guilliman restructured the Imperium's forces and distributed power. So one might assume the progression was: Heresy, Imperium without leader --> High Lords assemble, Guilliman is made Lord Commander of all --> Guilliman restructures the Imperium's forces to distribute power.

 

 

Last I checked, the Emperor created some Space Marine Legions

And how did that go? :P I do not want to suggest that the Emperor's plans were flawed, but Chaos was at work, and he did not forsee the heresy. Guillimans decision was directly based in the events of the heresy, which the Emperor himself did not anticipate, so tere is no saying that the Emperor might not have done the same, had he known.

 

 

Alternately, the blame might lie with the one who is sufficiently stupid to suggest that another Primarch's legion should reform to use his tactics, then tells that Primarch that his Legion will never measure up. Y'know, the one who starts the fight, then adds fuel to it. At best, Guilliman comes across as completely tactless there.

Guilliman did spend as lot of his attention on finding the optimal organisation and tactics. In the Alpha Legion he was perceiving a Space Marine Legion with inefficient structures. He could have left them alone, shaking his head in silence about their lower achievements compared to the more successful Chapters (of which the Ultramarines were one, I am sure you agree). Lion El'Jonson might have done it that way. He could have been "polite" and try to forge good will between Alpharius and himself inspite of his opinion of Alpharius' abilities as a commander. That's more or less what Horus did. Or he could have suggested the doctrines he spent a lot of time to test and evaluate, and which were used to great result by his own Legion.

Which of the choices of action would have been the most reasonable/selfish/honest?

Guilliman was not shy to criticise another Primarch, as he did with Horus for leaving worlds whose rebelling military he had just crushed defenseless behind while rushing to the next warzone. Horus' reaction was a more diplomatic one than that of Alpharius, but then that was Horus's main strength.

 

 

True. I'm just pointing out that apparently having a power base eight times that of the other Chapters is OK. It leaves one with the definite impression that Guilliman thought HIS legion was trustworthy/special.

It is never explained in the background how that is to be weighed as far as Chapter power goes. I have allways assumed that it is not a factor, but who knows. Though that is somewhat balanced by the fact that Guilliman was dividing a Legion of 25,000, and not a Legion of 5,000, so he appearently did not mind giving up power. So I would think if controll over multiple star systems was a concern, the Ultramarines would have given up Ultramar.

 

 

Well, at least two IAs say that it basically was Guilliman's decision to take command (though it seems not improbable that his decision received some official confirmation eventually). Still, the mentioned IAs were quite clear.

I contest that, (assuming you refer to the earlier mentioned passages in the Index Astartes Ultramarines and the Index Astartes Raven Guard) and as I have argued above, the Index Astartes Ultramarines was not refering to his position as Lord Commander at all, but only to the Ultramarines actions in defending the Imperium. The Raven Guard Index Astartes seems to be saying that while not officially nominated, Guilliman pretty much had controll over all Imperial forces. But other sources flat out state that he had the position of Lord Commander of all Imperial forces, without any "de facto" involved.

 

 

The Codex Astartes is a whole. He presents it as "the future of the Legiones Astartes". He doesn't present the division as the future, but the Codex as a whole.

Well, the Codex as a whole is a substantial piece of work. It describes all aspects of the Marines' structure. That does not mean that every item in that book is a decree.

 

 

The idea that a 'debate' which is opened by the suggestion that another Primarch's legion be reformed on Guilliman's personal dictates and closes on the note that that other Legion can never measure up to the Ultramarines anyway is civil at all seems questionable.

As I said earlier, Guilliman had spend a lot of attention and time to determine optimal doctrines. He was perceiving the Alpha Legion doctrines to be less efficient, and he had no problem to criticise other Primarchs or make suggestions. Under certain cisrumstances you might see someone who is bothering others with instructions as obnoxious, but in this case they were all "professionals" and all fighting for the same cause. In contrast, how would keeping your tried and tested method all for yourself and watching the others using (appearently) inferior methods to solve their issues look?

 

 

Show me another documented interaction with a Primarch.

Guilliman and Dorn (IA: IW):

"Rogal Dorn publicly declared that the Imperial Fists would dig Perturabo out of his hole and bring him back to Terra in an Iron Cage. Roboute Guilliman pleaded with Dorn to let him help but just as Perturabo planned, Dorn was arrogant enough to undertake the mission alone."

 

That happened after Guilliman had been made Lord Commander and after he had presented the Codex and Dorn had accepted to split his Legion (but before he did so), but he did not "order" Dorn to attack as part of a larger force, he "pleaded" with him to not do it on his own. He let Dorn decide how to use his forces. Though that might have been after Guilliman had already laid down the title as Lord Commander, so that he no longer was in a position to give orders anyway.

 

 

Guilliman and Dorn (IA: IF):

"Although some of the other Primarchs resented his closeness to the Emperor, most held him in high esteem. On Macgarre, home of the Ultramarines, Dorn's statue is one of the four Primarchs that stand alongside Guilliman#s in the Hall of Heroes."

 

 

Guilliman and Perturabo* (IA: IF):

"Perturabo was a master of fortification whose writings had been retained by Guilliman in his Codex."

 

*Does that count? It kind of shows that Guilliman was capable to recognise the abilities of others.

 

 

Guilliman and Horus (IA: LW):

"[Horus] had the approval and admiration of all the Space Marine Legions, including their Primarchs.

(...)

Further rebellion flared up on a number of the planets after the Luna Wolves had left, and it is believed that the Ultramarines' Primarch Roboute Guilliman subsequently had words with Horus on the matter."

 

So Guilliman is not shy to criticise a fellow Primarch even if is is holding him in high regard. That comes across as pragmatic and professional to me, not as obnoxious or boasting.

 

 

Guilliman and Corax (IA: RG):

"Among many of the Primarchs*, there was resistance, but Corax welcomed the decision and knew that Guilliman's vision of the future was true."

 

This is not so much an interaction, but it appears Corax, who was very critical of the otherwise admired Horus, had faith in Guilliman.

 

*"many" in this instance means three (there were only six loyalist Primarchs left, three objected)

[Grand Master Tyrak]

I am not sure what the "de facto" is supposed to mean. According to other sources such as the Codex Ultramarines he officially became the first Lord Commander of the Imperium, only man to ever command the entirety of the Imperium's Forces. There was no "de facto" about it. Maybe I am just not familiar with the exact meaning of that phrase.

BTW, since I know what you want to say, :) that was (at least in the sequence of the background description) before Guilliman restructured the Imperium's forces and distributed power. So one might assume the progression was: Heresy, Imperium without leader --> High Lords assemble, Guilliman is made Lord Commander of all --> Guilliman restructures the Imperium's forces to distribute power

 

I suspect "de facto" refers to the restructuring of the Council of Terra into the High Lords. With both Regent and Emperor dead or inaccessible, and probably one or two members killed during the siege too, restructuring would have taken more time than a simple re-naming. The Emperor and Guilliman's reforms also mean that the positions on the Council of Terra would not be replicated in the High Lords - the Inquisitorial Representative would be a new post, the Lord Commander Militant's role would change, and the Fabricator-General will be busy putting Mars back together.

 

As the only Primarch still dealing with the running of the Imperium and the commander of the largest Legion, Guilliman is a natural source of authority for those rebuilding the Imperium.

 

Since the dispute was entirely about the division into Chapters, that means that either the other Primarchs had no objection to a mandatory reorganise their new Chapters according to the Codex Astartes doctrines, or that the organisational doctrines were mere guidelines and not mandatory.

 

Corax disagreed with the Astartes fleets being watered down, despite not being one of those who disagreed with the division of the Legions. There was more than one sticking point in the Codex, and it was not decided by a simple Yes/No vote. It's reasonable to assume that there are other bits that a Primarch might have initially disagreed with, even if they were in favour of dividing the Legions.