Phoebus Posted October 14, 2009 Share Posted October 14, 2009 For almost all of the primarchs who fell to chaos the emperor could have stopped them easily earlier on. Standing with angon on his homeworld instead of teleporting him away and waiting until after mortarien had killed his step dad, admittedly he may have died but then he could have helped him. And then they would have appreicated it. Its the same with all of them. It was my impression that the Emperor intervened in Mortarion's battle only when the Primarch was left helpless and unable to fight. Where Angron is concerned, have you read "After Desh'ea"? He never gives the Emperor a chance. His father showed up right before the final battle was about to start, and Angron attacked him and his Custodes, killing one in the process before getting knocked out. Do you seriously think his army of berserker gladiators was about to have a lucid conversation on what had just happened? ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/181301-which-legion-dissapointed-you-the-most/page/4/#findComment-2151910 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tutteman Posted October 14, 2009 Share Posted October 14, 2009 For almost all of the primarchs who fell to chaos the emperor could have stopped them easily earlier on. Standing with angon on his homeworld instead of teleporting him away and waiting until after mortarien had killed his step dad, admittedly he may have died but then he could have helped him. And then they would have appreicated it. Its the same with all of them. It was my impression that the Emperor intervened in Mortarion's battle only when the Primarch was left helpless and unable to fight. Where Angron is concerned, have you read "After Desh'ea"? He never gives the Emperor a chance. His father showed up right before the final battle was about to start, and Angron attacked him and his Custodes, killing one in the process before getting knocked out. Do you seriously think his army of berserker gladiators was about to have a lucid conversation on what had just happened? ;) Mortarion was about to be beheaded by his step dad when the Emperor stepped in, something to be grateful for? :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/181301-which-legion-dissapointed-you-the-most/page/4/#findComment-2151953 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eloies Posted October 14, 2009 Share Posted October 14, 2009 I get the impersion that the Emperor simply teleported Angron on His ship and expected to get a hug. Angron slays one of his custades and the Emperor thinks "Oh dear Me. I don't have the time to explain what you are and why you should love Me, I have an galaxy to conquer! So of you go to your sons." Poof, Angron appears on his flagship and slays a bunch of his officers, the highest I might ad, and why? Cuse the Emperor was lazy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/181301-which-legion-dissapointed-you-the-most/page/4/#findComment-2151954 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted October 14, 2009 Share Posted October 14, 2009 Priorities... :)Terra was by no means decided, and all those forge worlds would have been pretty much pointless without the glory of Terra. ;) Cheers, P. You cant be a Emperor without an Empire. and he has been under extreme house arrest for the last 10k, and the forge worlds are still kicking. WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/181301-which-legion-dissapointed-you-the-most/page/4/#findComment-2151960 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted October 14, 2009 Share Posted October 14, 2009 Uh, the Emperor didn't have Forge Worlds the first time he left Earth.... Well the Fists didn't really drop the ball, the Emperor kind of decided to teleport onto the battlebarge, even though the Dark Angels and Space Wolves were hours away and the Ultras days behind them, or something like that. So its kind of the Emperor's own fault. In fact, I am most disappointed in the big E.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/181301-which-legion-dissapointed-you-the-most/page/4/#findComment-2152137 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoebus Posted October 14, 2009 Share Posted October 14, 2009 I get the impersion that the Emperor simply teleported Angron on His ship and expected to get a hug. Angron slays one of his custades and the Emperor thinks "Oh dear Me. I don't have the time to explain what you are and why you should love Me, I have an galaxy to conquer! So of you go to your sons." Poof, Angron appears on his flagship and slays a bunch of his officers, the highest I might ad, and why? Cuse the Emperor was lazy. Again, that's not what happened. See the spoiler, above. :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/181301-which-legion-dissapointed-you-the-most/page/4/#findComment-2152151 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted October 14, 2009 Share Posted October 14, 2009 Uh, the Emperor didn't have Forge Worlds the first time he left Earth.... Well the Fists didn't really drop the ball, the Emperor kind of decided to teleport onto the battlebarge, even though the Dark Angels and Space Wolves were hours away and the Ultras days behind them, or something like that. So its kind of the Emperor's own fault. In fact, I am most disappointed in the big E.... your right, the Emperor didnt have forge worlds when he left terra....which is why his first stop was mars, a forge world. and what a Fist player, deflecting blame from their inability to hold the palace with the aid of two other legions, guardsmen, sisters of silence, titans, and adeptus custodes in the most defensible position known to mankind... (this is a jest, i know they were horribly outnumbered by traitor marines, cultists, traitors guards and titans...blah blah blah) WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/181301-which-legion-dissapointed-you-the-most/page/4/#findComment-2152185 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted October 14, 2009 Share Posted October 14, 2009 Uh, the Emperor didn't have Forge Worlds the first time he left Earth.... Well the Fists didn't really drop the ball, the Emperor kind of decided to teleport onto the battlebarge, even though the Dark Angels and Space Wolves were hours away and the Ultras days behind them, or something like that. So its kind of the Emperor's own fault. In fact, I am most disappointed in the big E.... your right, the Emperor didnt have forge worlds when he left terra....which is why his first stop was mars, a forge world. and what a Fist player, deflecting blame from their inability to hold the palace with the aid of two other legions, guardsmen, sisters of silence, titans, and adeptus custodes in the most defensible position known to mankind... (this is a jest, i know they were horribly outnumbered by traitor marines, cultists, traitors guards and titans...blah blah blah) WLK We had it fine, it was when the Emperor decided to go play hero that things got out of hand B) . Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/181301-which-legion-dissapointed-you-the-most/page/4/#findComment-2152213 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoebus Posted October 14, 2009 Share Posted October 14, 2009 You cant be a Emperor without an Empire.and he has been under extreme house arrest for the last 10k, and the forge worlds are still kicking. WLK I meant it all in a tongue-in-cheek sort of way, of course, but I do kind of have to stand on this point. Terra and the Emperor take priority over the Forgeworlds--the Lion and Russ could not have known their father and brothers would persevere. You worry about today first, and tomorrow later. Besides, the sheer number of planets of the Imperium speaks against this train of thought. The idea that the Wolves and the Angels would have visited anything approaching even a slim minority of the Forgeworlds out there on their way to Terra cannot reconcile with the "reality" of 40k. Bah, don't get me wrong. The blame is just as much El'Jonson's for simply not pressing on to Terra. That, I believe, would have been the best compromise. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/181301-which-legion-dissapointed-you-the-most/page/4/#findComment-2152219 Share on other sites More sharing options...
shamen Posted October 14, 2009 Share Posted October 14, 2009 IMHO im most dissappointed by ultra-smurfs, cos they have nothing special other than ultramar and a primarch with the tactical brain the size of a small moon. and to comment further on the reason the space wolves and dark angels were planet hopping to terra, i always thought it was cos the were on the mother of all pub crawls to celebrate there voyage back to see dad and just lost track of time lmao. But joking and ultra-smurf bating aside, i guess im mostly disappointed with Emperor bob, mainly for not taking the clean kill shot when he should. i mean lets face it your son is about to wipe your empire off the face of the galaxy, would you? A) kick his arse to the warp and back then destroy his soul before he can turn you into a drooling cripple, or B) ask why? try to reason with him then get you arse handed to you on a plate before doing A. cos i know what id of done of annilated him first then ask silly questions like why, exactly what my primarch did on caliban :D . Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/181301-which-legion-dissapointed-you-the-most/page/4/#findComment-2152267 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Captain Kezef Posted October 14, 2009 Share Posted October 14, 2009 IMHO im most dissappointed by ultra-smurfs, cos they have nothing special other than ultramar and a primarch with the tactical brain the size of a small moon. and to comment further on the reason the space wolves and dark angels were planet hopping to terra, i always thought it was cos the were on the mother of all pub crawls to celebrate there voyage back to see dad and just lost track of time lmao. But joking and ultra-smurf bating aside, i guess im mostly disappointed with Emperor bob, mainly for not taking the clean kill shot when he should. i mean lets face it your son is about to wipe your empire off the face of the galaxy, would you? A) kick his arse to the warp and back then destroy his soul before he can turn you into a drooling cripple, or B) ask why? try to reason with him then get you arse handed to you on a plate before doing A. cos i know what id of done of annilated him first then ask silly questions like why, exactly what my primarch did on caliban :D . Shamen has a point. The Emperor is portrayed a s acold-hearted, singleminded and very driven individual looking at the bigger picture while ignoring minor concerns. Faced with Horus, the Imperium at stake, and NOW he decides to develop a compassionate side? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/181301-which-legion-dissapointed-you-the-most/page/4/#findComment-2152295 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Emperor's Champion Posted October 14, 2009 Share Posted October 14, 2009 Yea, well, the fact that he was human in a few thousand former lives had to bite him in the ass eventually. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/181301-which-legion-dissapointed-you-the-most/page/4/#findComment-2152316 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted October 14, 2009 Share Posted October 14, 2009 You cant be a Emperor without an Empire.and he has been under extreme house arrest for the last 10k, and the forge worlds are still kicking. WLK I meant it all in a tongue-in-cheek sort of way, of course, but I do kind of have to stand on this point. Terra and the Emperor take priority over the Forgeworlds--the Lion and Russ could not have known their father and brothers would persevere. You worry about today first, and tomorrow later. Besides, the sheer number of planets of the Imperium speaks against this train of thought. The idea that the Wolves and the Angels would have visited anything approaching even a slim minority of the Forgeworlds out there on their way to Terra cannot reconcile with the "reality" of 40k. Bah, don't get me wrong. The blame is just as much El'Jonson's for simply not pressing on to Terra. That, I believe, would have been the best compromise. i have actually had this debate a few times before (the delay of russ and its impact) and i still reason that the imperium survived without the emperor, but could the Emperor had survived without his empire? and i think this is actually a good look into russ, who insisted on the delays...maybe his actions show the typical SW feelings towards the Men of the Imperium then the typical drunken viking his haters insist he is. WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/181301-which-legion-dissapointed-you-the-most/page/4/#findComment-2152342 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Captain Kezef Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 and i think this is actually a good look into russ, who insisted on the delays...maybe his actions show the typical SW feelings towards the Men of the Imperium then the typical drunken viking his haters insist he is. This is an interesting point, with the exception of the Salamanders, the Wolves are the most compassionate of the Legions. They firmly believe in their role to defend Humanity, putting the little guys first. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/181301-which-legion-dissapointed-you-the-most/page/4/#findComment-2152425 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 and i think this is actually a good look into russ, who insisted on the delays...maybe his actions show the typical SW feelings towards the Men of the Imperium then the typical drunken viking his haters insist he is. This is an interesting point, with the exception of the Salamanders, the Wolves are the most compassionate of the Legions. They firmly believe in their role to defend Humanity, putting the little guys first. i thought this was going to be sombody calling me a fanboi, so gracias. WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/181301-which-legion-dissapointed-you-the-most/page/4/#findComment-2152442 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cire Verdius Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 But joking and ultra-smurf bating aside, i guess im mostly disappointed with Emperor bob, mainly for not taking the clean kill shot when he should. i mean lets face it your son is about to wipe your empire off the face of the galaxy, would you? A) kick his arse to the warp and back then destroy his soul before he can turn you into a drooling cripple, or B) ask why? try to reason with him then get you arse handed to you on a plate before doing A. I'd like to quote myself here if you don't mind, as my reply to this. I believe he did see the heresy, as yet another probable course that reality and history could take. Yet despite his own visions and warnings from Magnus, he refused to believe that a Primarch, let alone his favored son, could truly have fallen so and turn against him. From this, I imagine that this is what kept the Emperor from outright killing Horus in their final confrontation, that even bearing witness to the depth of corruption, the murder and betrayal by Horus, that the Emperor still felt it couldn't possibly be true and if so wanted to give him every last chance there was to repent and return to his side. It was only Horus' callous act of annihilating a member of the Custodes (though I always felt the guardsman made a much more significant and memorable slaying) without any inclination of hesitation, did the Emperor see that Horus was beyond redemption *and truly lost. * denotes edit. Now as for which legion, I would have to say, well all of them. Each one that turned traitor, no one more or less than the other. They were weak, each of them which gave Chaos' influence a chance to take root. Fulgrim however at the very least saw the error of his ways and though he could have possibly repended, he instead chooses to have his pain lost as his essence is hidden away as his body is possessed. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/181301-which-legion-dissapointed-you-the-most/page/4/#findComment-2152476 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoebus Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 Shamen has a point. The Emperor is portrayed a s acold-hearted, singleminded and very driven individual looking at the bigger picture while ignoring minor concerns. Faced with Horus, the Imperium at stake, and NOW he decides to develop a compassionate side? How is that unrealistic? Consider the relationships the world's great conquerors and great monsters cultivated during their lives. A lot of this criticism is being heaped without taking into consideration the emotional context. None of you have never had (and hopefully will never have to) pull the trigger on your son. i have actually had this debate a few times before (the delay of russ and its impact) and i still reason that the imperium survived without the emperor, but could the Emperor had survived without his empire? I raise the question again, then: how many forge worlds do you think El'Jonson and Russ stopped at during their trek back to Terra? I find it impossible to believe that they rescued anything approaching even a sizeable minority of said worlds. and i think this is actually a good look into russ, who insisted on the delays...maybe his actions show the typical SW feelings towards the Men of the Imperium then the typical drunken viking his haters insist he is. I agree with this analysis wholeheartedly. Cheers, P. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/181301-which-legion-dissapointed-you-the-most/page/4/#findComment-2152863 Share on other sites More sharing options...
NinjaStone Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 Emperor's children and word bearers failed pretty hard to me. Word bearers pretty much failed in general (thanks a lot Lorgar) and Fulgrim falcon punched the EC's chance of being awesome What Russ did was both good and bad, not much else he oculd of done. :angry: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/181301-which-legion-dissapointed-you-the-most/page/4/#findComment-2152868 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 Again, that's not what happened. See the spoiler, above. ;) Actually, that isn't what happened. Angron was kidnapped by the Emperor after Angron said "I'm fighting with my army", and surprise surprise, Angron didn't take that well. When the Custodes was killed, Angron was aboard the Emperors ship, not on his home planet. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/181301-which-legion-dissapointed-you-the-most/page/4/#findComment-2152906 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoebus Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 Again, that's not what happened. See the spoiler, above. :P Actually, that isn't what happened. Angron was kidnapped by the Emperor after Angron said "I'm fighting with my army", and surprise surprise, Angron didn't take that well. When the Custodes was killed, Angron was aboard the Emperors ship, not on his home planet. I guess when I get home, I'll re-read "After Desh'ea". So far as I can remember, and per Angron's own words, he doesn't even give the Emperor a chance to speak to him. He flat out attacks, and kills a Custodes, before the Emperor ever has a chance to even propose an ultimatum. Cheers, P. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/181301-which-legion-dissapointed-you-the-most/page/4/#findComment-2153014 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArcticFox Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 As a Black Templar guy I think ironically I'm supposed to be the most disappointed in my own primarch, Rogal Dorn. After all, it's why we've been on the longest Crusade in history, to atone for his failure to protect the Emperor. And yet I find myself unable to feel that way, because of all the primarchs, Dorn struck me as the most willing to admit to his shortcomings and to take action to improve. Hence, our glorious chapter came to be. The rest tended to find blame in others. Sometimes that was justified, sometimes it was mere scapegoating. (I'm looking at YOU, Gulliman.) Personally, I do not blame what happened to the Emperor on Dorn. Had it not been for his genius, the Emperor would not have survived long enough to teleport to Horus' ship. Nevertheless we fight to atone. It is what warriors do. Having said that, my greatest disappointment is in the Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus. Some of the greatest warriors in the Emperor's service showed they didn't have the moral conviction when it counted. Their loyalty was greater for Horus than the Emperor, and that was their failure. Abbadon was the most obvious example, but on some level perhaps even Loken and Torgaddon share some of that burden for their silence. Could they have fought their brethren at Davin and prevented the Warmaster's corruption? Probably not, but they didn't even try. Understandable perhaps, but still a moral failure. They KNEW they were using forbidden methods to save Horus and yet they proceeded. Many people here have criticized the Thousand Sons for this behavior, but they're no better or worse than the Sons of Horus who willingly allowed their own primarch, who would certainly never have allowed it had be been conscious, to be taken into a temple to Chaos powers to be "healed." Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/181301-which-legion-dissapointed-you-the-most/page/4/#findComment-2153161 Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronWinds Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 On the angron note... does it matter if it was on the ship or planet? The emperor could of easily let Angron kill his enemies on the planet and just stood by ready to teleport in if needed. Instead of just jumping in without doing any research as to what was going on down on the planet. Second thing... where does Angron end up in the end? On his ship killing his own commanders. And kharne has to explain that they are warriors, that the emperor is the greatest warrior... etc. Ok what if the Emperor fought angron one on one and bested him, might angron have been a littie more understanding of the situation, not killed his own commanders etc. I think the Emperor is the biggest disapointment. The whole galaxy is falling apart and he is just sitting in his basement working on random gadgets.... Might a whole lot of situations been different if he came out earlier? There are a few primarchs he could of prevented from leaving. Magnus is obvious, but he probably could of kept Alpharius and Perturabo as well if he was being proactive and meeting with his primarchs. And who lets Angron lead an army before getting him under control? Reading this argument just makes me think... huh? He kills your men, so you drop him off with his own legion, he kills some more, and then he is expected to lead them around the galaxy? You want loyal servants, he just beheaded your bodyguard and tried to kill you! I think he needs some more attention before you let him loose on his own :) . Lorgar basically stops doing anything after you tell him to stop worshipping you. He locks himself in his room and doesn't come out for a long time. Ummmm he is your son right? Might be a time to call up and say, 'heys it your dad.......' And from reading the HH books it seems like you never hear from the Emperor on any matter. Its always the high lords of terra. Ok imagine the Emperor was getting in contact with each primarch at least once a month and just checking in. Might Perturabo have told him he didn't like 10 marines garrisoning a planet with millions of hostiles, and the Emperor saw what was happening and prevented it? Might Alpharius have mentioned he was hunting down the Cabal, and sparked the Emperor's interest, giving him a chance to talk Alpharius out of it.... 'son, they are aliens, and they are trying to turn us against each other, can't you see that?' Might Anrgon have said, 'screw you dad!' which would hopefully lead to a more meaningful conversation? Might he have noticed Horus acting strangely? Might he have noticed Fulgrim talking about installing speakers in his warrior's mouths? Etc. etc. etc. The heresy is the Emperor's fault plain and simple. He creates 20 perfect generals to lead his armies and then he puts a couple of humans(high lords of terra) in charge of everything with absolutely no oversight. What great leader never contacts his 20 most important people, what leader never contats his generals in a time of war, what father never contacts his sons? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/181301-which-legion-dissapointed-you-the-most/page/4/#findComment-2153230 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoebus Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 Again, that's not what happened. See the spoiler, above. :) Actually, that isn't what happened. Angron was kidnapped by the Emperor after Angron said "I'm fighting with my army", and surprise surprise, Angron didn't take that well. When the Custodes was killed, Angron was aboard the Emperors ship, not on his home planet. From "After Desh'ea": "It isn't my place to know, sire, what the Emperor said to you. But we-" Angron wheeled, and Khârn flinched. The Primarch's eyes were alight, and his teeth were bare, but it wasn't a snarl now, it was a broad, vicious grin. "Didn't say much to me, no he did not. Think I let him? Think I did?" Angron then goes on to describe that, when the Emperor arrived, he took umbrage at the fact that his Custodes had their blades drawn. He saw it as a personal affront, and attacked--killing a Custodes in the process. At that point, the Emperor teleports Angron off-planet. At no point are there any proclamations, discussions, etc. And, as Angron himself describes, all this was happening right as "the high-riders' killers" were coming up to kill Angron and his brothers and sisters. The Emperor can't be blamed for this. He couldn't have known that Angron's sanity/lucidity/ability to reason had been compromised to such an extent. Nor can Angron be blamed for this--he was the victim of cerebral surgery that deprived him of any real self-control. On the angron note... does it matter if it was on the ship or planet? The emperor could of easily let Angron kill his enemies on the planet and just stood by ready to teleport in if needed. Instead of just jumping in without doing any research as to what was going on down on the planet. As you can see above, this was not the case. You're exercising a remarkable amount of hindsight 20/20 with your proposition. The Emperor would have had to know that Angron was incapable of basic reasoning. In any other situation, the sane and lucid thing to do would be to question why someone who purports to be your father would let you fight for your life and see a bunch of your friends die before stepping in. Second thing... where does Angron end up in the end? On his ship killing his own commanders. And kharne has to explain that they are warriors, that the emperor is the greatest warrior... etc. Ok what if the Emperor fought angron one on one and bested him, might angron have been a littie more understanding of the situation, not killed his own commanders etc. One could just as easily postulate that the Emperor (correctly) understood that (A) the War Hounds would have to win Angron's respect on their own anyways; and (B) that no Emperor-fueled beating would force Angron to like the Emperor after losing his brothers and sisters. It would have been a pointless exercise. We know that the Emperor had no issues fighting to prove his dominance over his sons when necessary (see Leman Russ), but in this case it would have been utterly pointless. Furthermore, the idea that Angron was simply left in control of a Legion before being brought under control is also incorrect. It's fairly obvious (I think, at least) that the War Hounds weren't just roaming around, undertaking operations while also trying to convince Angron to be a good lad and lead them. For his part, quite simply put, the Emperor had a Great Crusade to run. He didn't have the time to fix Angron. Again, this all comes down to a "will he, or will he not be able to cope?" sort of question. Either Angron would be able to bring himself under control, or he wouldn't. The fact that two Primarchs were wiped from the rolls implies that Angron was either not the first or not the last such problem the Emperor ran into. A better argument, IMHO, would have been "Why didn't the Emperor try to fix Angron's brain?" To which I would have answered "It took centuries for the Emperor to make the Primarchs, and that took the majority of his focus. I doubt the Emperor could drop the Great Crusade from his schedule to undertake this labor." I think the Emperor is the biggest disapointment. The whole galaxy is falling apart and he is just sitting in his basement working on random gadgets.... He's actually working on the Golden Throne and on a means to access the Webway, which were both just as key in their own way as bringing Humanity under one power. The Webway, on its own, would have relieved Humanity from undue exposure to the Warp and the comparative ease of its travel mode would have brought Humans exponentially closer to one another, making control over the Imperium a far more realistic thing. Magnus can't be pinned on the Emperor; he knowingly dabbled with forces he couldn't control. Perturabo can be counted among the worst of the Primarchs for character alone: Lorgar at least had a tangible excuse in that his belief set was based on something tangible, but Perturabo simply railed at having to do something virtually every other Legion had to do. Lorgar basically stops doing anything after you tell him to stop worshipping you. He locks himself in his room and doesn't come out for a long time. Ummmm he is your son right? Might be a time to call up and say, 'heys it your dad.......' No, Lorgar locked himself up for a "full Terran month". It takes longer than that for some messages to reach people from one Segmentum to another. At any rate, I have trouble seeing as logical the excuses given over to the various Primarchs who went rogue. Perturabo? Lamenting his fate for having to garrison the worlds he conquered? Look at the Ultramarines: they forged the largest Legion by doing the same, and by following a creed of protecting their charges and elevating them to a standard befitting their vision for the Imperium. What did Perturabo do? He never even cultivated worthwhile relationships on his home planet, and refused to cultivate any sort of kinship with the Humans he brought into compliance. He perceived his duty--the same as that of any other Primarch--as a chore. He can cry me a river. Alpharius? How on earth would discourse and conversation have led to Alpharius--most secretive of the Primarchs before even being found!--revealing all of his schemes and plans, especially when he was made a true believer in such a short period of time? Fulgrim was flipping possessed by a Daemon! :) How on Terra would you propose having a conversation with a man whose brain has been so broken up and scarred that he's unable to complete sentences without going into "HULK SMASH!!!" mode? ;) The heresy is the Emperor's fault plain and simple. He creates 20 perfect generals to lead his armies and then he puts a couple of humans(high lords of terra) in charge of everything with absolutely no oversight. What great leader never contacts his 20 most important people, what leader never contats his generals in a time of war, what father never contacts his sons? 1. No, it's actually Chaos' fault. Chaos spread his sons throughout the Galaxy, and their subsequent fates are attributed to this. Without this incident, Konrad Curze does not become a sociopath. Without this incident, Angron's brain isn't scrambled. Without this incident, Magnus does not get exposed to sorcery. Perturabo maybe doesn't get as much of an opportunity to be an impertinent whiner. Mortarion doesn't get this ridiculous fascination with death. Lorgar doesn't become a Scientologist. Fulgrim doesn't get possessed, since Lorgar has no reason to see him done that way. But what happened to Alpharius might have happened regardless. Alpharius, after all, was utterly loyal, but was shown a psychic vision of the Galaxy's impending doom that he was convinced was accurate. 2. They weren't perfect when he found them, and you can thank Chaos for that. 3. Your issues with contact? It's a Galaxy, and it's one wherein Humanity has very imperfect means of travel and communication. I mean, Nathaniel Garro comments on how he can't even count the years he's lost in Warp travel! More than once, we're shown how the Warp can compromise both travel and message traffic. And history has shown us that lack of the sort of instant communication we in the real, 21st century world have been accustomed to is hardly grounds for excusing mass revolt. When Great Britain claimed dominions all over the world in the 19th century, it wasn't expected that governors and generals in other continents would rebel out of turn because Queen Victoria failed to send them cookies and postcards every so often! :P Cheers, P. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/181301-which-legion-dissapointed-you-the-most/page/4/#findComment-2153253 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDarker Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 A father that BELIEVES in them. (I know i know, first rule of parents: "never believe in your sons". Ever. Also, communications are... "difficult" on the Empire...trying to contact them every month could be... hard...). Also remember the Emperor was busy with the Warp Gate on Terra... i suppose something like this: Malcador: Uh, My lord? have you a moment? Empy: (ranting about Magnus for nearly destroying Earth). Yeah, sorry Malc, i´m a bit busy here, it´s important? M: Horus rebels E: WHAT?!?!?!??!. M: You didn´t see it with your powers? E:My powers are a bit busy containing the Demons and fueling the Astronomicon. Also, i don´t check future every single day, dammit. What happens?. M: Don´t know... but i put Dorn on command to bring Horus to justice. E: Well done, Dorn is a good general. And? M: He send 7 legions to stop Horus and his allies. E: Allies? what? Who rebelled? M:Morty, Fulgrim and Angron. E: Damm, stupid kids... so, he captured them already no?. M: Erm... no... 4 of the legions he sended rebels and killed the other tree... E:WHAT?!?!? HE DIDN´T CHECKED THEY WERE LOYAL!??!?!?. M:Erm... i think he supposed only the ones with Horus were traitor... E: Yeah, Horus rebels, has support of tree legions and he didn´t even consider they could be MORE traitors... so, what now? M: Oh, Horus is nearly Terra. E: Damm, ok first we will fortify Mars and then... M:*ahem* E:..... (checks Warp) WHAT??? MARS IS ON REBEL´S HANDS!?!??! M: Erm... yes.... E:HOW THE HELL DORN ALLOWS THE TRAITORS TO TAKE MARS?!??!! IT´S THE PLANET NEXT TERRA, FOR ME´S SHAKE!!!!. M:Well... i think he didn´t expect to be traitors here... E: Yea, he didn´t expected so many things... Dammit, last time I take a break, and let the kids take the business, i swear!!! :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/181301-which-legion-dissapointed-you-the-most/page/4/#findComment-2153280 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tutteman Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 I find the "It's all the Emperor's fault" rather funny. Sure he probs could have done it better, so partly his fault, but ultimately the responsiblity lies with Horus and Lorgar. Well, my opinion anyways :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/181301-which-legion-dissapointed-you-the-most/page/4/#findComment-2153309 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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