Which Legion dissapointed you the most?

[Legatus]

And yet I find myself unable to feel that way, because of all the primarchs, Dorn struck me as the most willing to admit to his shortcomings and to take action to improve. Hence, our glorious chapter came to be. The rest tended to find blame in others. Sometimes that was justified, sometimes it was mere scapegoating. (I'm looking at YOU, Gulliman.)

I am not getting it. Wo did Guilliman blame for what?

[Lord Ragnarok]

I'd have to echo the comments on some of these.

 

Dissapointed:

1. Emp Children, giving into debauchery

2. DG, I just don't see their motivation for turning. loving Horus can only take you so far.

3. Space Wolves for being duped (although I understand why and can't see it going any other way) I actually prefer this scenario v/s the older blood thirstier version where the Emperor just tells us to attack them. Means SW are duped but makes the Emp. seem less blood thirsty and raises Horus' evil'ness another level

4. Conrad for going nutso

5. The Lion, for forsaken his own brothers and not remembering where he came from and who brought him out of his primitive surroundings

(and in fact not killing him).

 

 

 

Praise:

1. SW for Escaping AL, Attacking prospero and not only surviving but kicking butt, and making it back to Terra

2. White Scars for helping defend the flanks of the palace and for helping the SW for a short time...and making a tough decision

3. Sanguinius for fighting valiantly until the end (especially he slaying of the BT)

4. Although I'm no fan of the codex, you must admire how the Ultras held things together post Heresy.

5. Word Bearers...of all the legions they set the pace. The ones in control, who bent everyone to their gospel and turned the first son of the Emperor.

6. Magnus for going against the Emperor to save the Emperor. Someone mentioned he should have found another way, but I think he sensed time against him and assumed that the Emp would have been ok with his last transgression. In fact, the latest is that the emp. simply wanted him brought to Terra to answer...if Horus had not intervened I'm sure the Tsons would have been on the other side of the line on Terra (if they would have made it in time).

[Phoebus]

So what was Lion El'Jonson supposed to do?

 

 

He knew that Luther had something to do with the attempted assassination on his person, and that neither he nor Sar Zahariel were willing to be honest about it.

 

 

Would you trust somebody with not just your life, but those of tens of thousands of your warriors, and the fates of potentially billions of human beings affected by the Great Crusade? Methinks the Lion doesn't get enough credit for sparing Luther in a way that didn't allow for much more immediate and drastic divisions to come to pass. It's no coincidence that Luther, in "Fallen Angels"

sucks it up and doesn't complain or while about his fate, but does the best job he can. He knows what's up, and doesn't turn until he starts studying the occult on a world being wracked by the influences and powers of Chaos.

 

 

Konrad Curze? The poor man grew up bereft of any human companionship in a world of vile criminals and murderers. I feel pity for him, not a sense of disappointment...

 

I give praise to Sanguinius as well. His stand before the gates of the Imperial Palace is justly famed in 40k lore...

 

Cheers,

P.

[TheDarker]

Well, Magnus could have sended his legion to Terra (even at an slow pace, because of the Inmaterium) to help the Emperor... but he just sended the message (and he must have know that he broke the defences of the Palace!!!) and wait in his planet... what was he waiting for? "Oh, here comes Russ, i´m sure the Emperor sended to give me greetings for my advice!". I mean, after all, you could have... prepared for an eventual attack... or attack Horus... or contact more Loyal legions... or....

[Lord Ragnarok]

He knew that Luther had something to do with the attempted assassination on his person, and that neither he nor Sar Zahariel were willing to be honest about it.

 

 

I didn't read that incident the way you did. Seemed overly paranoid to me. But that is my opinion nothing really to debate.

 

 

Also in Fallen Angels I had the sense that Luther had really been brooding about how things were handled.

 

 

 

Konrad Curze? The poor man grew up bereft of any human companionship in a world of vile criminals and murderers. I feel pity for him, not a sense of disappointment...

 

Then he should have gone crazy before the Emp found him, not after. All the things he was lacking he had in bounty with brother primarchs and the Emp.

[The Emperor's Champion]

And yet I find myself unable to feel that way, because of all the primarchs, Dorn struck me as the most willing to admit to his shortcomings and to take action to improve. Hence, our glorious chapter came to be. The rest tended to find blame in others. Sometimes that was justified, sometimes it was mere scapegoating. (I'm looking at YOU, Gulliman.)

I am not getting it. Wo did Guilliman blame for what?

He probably blamed the Heresy on Horus, engineered the whole thing and everything since then all in a grand plan to take over the galaxy when he "recovers" from his fake mortal wound and his stasis field shuts off in 666.M42, when he'll reunite all the Codex Chapters in overthrowing the Imperium. Because you know, that how Guilliman rolls.... :rolleyes:

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

i have actually had this debate a few times before (the delay of russ and its impact) and i still reason that the imperium survived without the emperor, but could the Emperor had survived without his empire?

I raise the question again, then: how many forge worlds do you think El'Jonson and Russ stopped at during their trek back to Terra? I find it impossible to believe that they rescued anything approaching even a sizeable minority of said worlds.

 

 

Cheers,

P.

 

well, russ and i havent talked in a while, with him being a fictional character, and me being flesh and blood....but since this hasnt been written on much yet all we are left with are assumptions and guess work.

 

and to start off, we have to assume russ wasnt a moron when it came to battle. his legion was number 3 on asskicking (behind the Lion and the Warmaster) so he must know atleast SOME sense on the battlefield.

 

now on his returning to terra, he had destroyed propero, had fought his way clear of the AL ambush, and then decides to slow his advance for the All-Father (the only being to ever best him in combat) to liberate some forge worlds.

 

nwo if we agree he isnt a fool when it comes to military tactics and strategy, and that his love for the Emperor was solid and loyal, then any delay he had in returning to Terra must have been monumentous.

So while i dont have a count of the exact number of forge worlds saved by Russ, i have to think, using the above logic, that is was in the numbers to be worth his delay to Terra.

 

WLK

[Phoebus]

My personal opinion?

 

I think the Lion and Russ took about as straight a line as they could from point X (where X is the spot the Wolves fought the Alpha Legion) to Terra. Between there and Terra, I believe they passed by Y number of forge worlds, which called to the two Primarchs and their forces for help.

 

I don't believe Leman Russ was an idiot by any means, but I do believe that he was an emotional individual possessed of an overwhelming sense of personal honor. I think that this, coupled with his benevolence toward Mankind saw him unwilling to pass by worlds besieged by the worst of evils. I think this smacked to Russ of compromise, something the Space Wolves are not well known for. The Lion, though far more pragmatic, was likely forced to stay with Russ because he knew the odds at Terra were not conducive to him arriving alone. Hence, his rage at Russ for making those stops.

 

The number of forge worlds is irrelevant; likely, it is a small number, meaningless in the greater scheme of things. It mattered to Russ, though, because each was a world his All-Father and brothers had fought to secure for Humanity, and it was not under assault by traitors.

 

Lord Ragnarok,

 

Agree to disagree, then. :)

 

Cheers,

P.

[ArcticFox]

And yet I find myself unable to feel that way, because of all the primarchs, Dorn struck me as the most willing to admit to his shortcomings and to take action to improve. Hence, our glorious chapter came to be. The rest tended to find blame in others. Sometimes that was justified, sometimes it was mere scapegoating. (I'm looking at YOU, Gulliman.)

I am not getting it. Wo did Guilliman blame for what?

 

While our great primarch, Dorn, battled to defend Terra, the Ultramarines arrived too late bringing only their excuses with them.

 

(I recall reading somewhere that the Imperial Fists and Black Templars regard the Ultramarines as something of a gang of posers. It was the Fists that held Terra during the height of the Heresy and then the Ultramarines came down and marched around Terra in their shiny blue armor like lords of the manor...)

[The Emperor's Champion]

Horus SENT the Ultramarines away so they COULDN'T fight.

Don't be dumb.

[ArcticFox]

Horus SENT the Ultramarines away so they COULDN'T fight.

Don't be dumb.

 

See? Excuses!

 

:ph34r:

 

(Note: Nobody should get upset over posts like these. It's only a game, and it's all in jest.)

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

My personal opinion?

 

I think the Lion and Russ took about as straight a line as they could from point X (where X is the spot the Wolves fought the Alpha Legion) to Terra. Between there and Terra, I believe they passed by Y number of forge worlds, which called to the two Primarchs and their forces for help.

 

I don't believe Leman Russ was an idiot by any means, but I do believe that he was an emotional individual possessed of an overwhelming sense of personal honor. I think that this, coupled with his benevolence toward Mankind saw him unwilling to pass by worlds besieged by the worst of evils. I think this smacked to Russ of compromise, something the Space Wolves are not well known for. The Lion, though far more pragmatic, was likely forced to stay with Russ because he knew the odds at Terra were not conducive to him arriving alone. Hence, his rage at Russ for making those stops.

 

The number of forge worlds is irrelevant; likely, it is a small number, meaningless in the greater scheme of things. It mattered to Russ, though, because each was a world his All-Father and brothers had fought to secure for Humanity, and it was not under assault by traitors.

 

Lord Ragnarok,

 

Agree to disagree, then. :ph34r:

 

Cheers,

P.

 

fair enough, this logic makes good sense to me.

 

WLK

[Jarl Bloodwolf]

to me the pre heresy wolves, fists and death gaurd ( the luna wolves were awesome to before they became the sons of horus) were the greatest legions and after the heresy the fists and wolves have stayed pretty good and while im dissapointed with the death gaurd turning to chaos i mostly dont like what happened to the luna wolves. to me they imbodied a little bit of the space wolves fire with some of the fists prowess

[c-wrex]

I'll say it again, I think the biggest examples of dropping the ball were Ferrus Manus and the Warmastah. Ferrus for his tactical idiocy at the Dropsite Massacre, and Horus for the same reason at the Battle of Terra.

 

For Ferrus, why would just launch a straight attack on an entrenched, numerically superior enemy with no support in place? A hot head like him should not have been commanding the battle. He could have used the Raven Guard to go all ninja on the traitors (I can't remember if the RG became ninjas before Isstvan or as a result of the massive loss in numbers they suffered there). He could have ordered a sustained bombardment from orbit until reinforcements arrived. Hell, he could have just virus bombed the site, and then dropped nukes all over the place! Instead, he orders the same attack Lee orders at Gettysburg day three: a short cannonade and then an infantry charge. Admittedly, Ferrus Manus(fictional, 40k, primarch, etc.) and Robert E. Lee (real, nineteenth century) had a few different battlefield assets ;) but it was basically the same thing. I guarantee had Vulkan been calling the shots, the legions would have just pounded ole whor-us from orbit until he begged for mercy.

 

And then, as a result, Horus survives and then launches...an equally stupid attack on Terra. He got all his pieces lined up in good order, had most of the advantages (numbers, numbers, guns, numbers, ships, numbers, guns again, one more set of numbers etc), and then just tried to huff and puff and blow down the front door of the Palace. Why not just teleport in, or flatten it from orbit with nukes? That's bad generalship. This guy got authority to run run the whole army? Not the Emprah's best move.

[ChapniK]

@c-wrex

 

it is not just a simple matter of destroying terra and winning. Horus wants to become the new emperor of mankind, to symbolically do so he needs to sit on the big throne. Also terra has all the administration as a bonus.

 

ps: for the teleportation, if the shield on horus ship where able to stop teleportation imagine what the shields on the palace would do.

[c-wrex]

Yeah, but Horus didn't just have teleporters, he also had sorcery, and heretic tech priests experimenting with all manner of wild crazy technology, so who knows what his men couldn't have done. And I still think he wants to crush all of terra. Think on it, the replacement of the emprah by his human cronies and scriveners (not to mention those damned remembrancers... :P ) was one of the main sources of discontent which began Horus down the road to damnation anyway. I'm pretty sure he wanted to kill them all.

[Marshal Rohr]

And yet I find myself unable to feel that way, because of all the primarchs, Dorn struck me as the most willing to admit to his shortcomings and to take action to improve. Hence, our glorious chapter came to be. The rest tended to find blame in others. Sometimes that was justified, sometimes it was mere scapegoating. (I'm looking at YOU, Gulliman.)

I am not getting it. Wo did Guilliman blame for what?

 

While our great primarch, Dorn, battled to defend Terra, the Ultramarines arrived too late bringing only their excuses with them.

 

(I recall reading somewhere that the Imperial Fists and Black Templars regard the Ultramarines as something of a gang of posers. It was the Fists that held Terra during the height of the Heresy and then the Ultramarines came down and marched around Terra in their shiny blue armor like lords of the manor...)

 

Thats a negative. I have evidence showing both IF and BT cooperation/respect with/for the UMs, post Heresy.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

And yet I find myself unable to feel that way, because of all the primarchs, Dorn struck me as the most willing to admit to his shortcomings and to take action to improve. Hence, our glorious chapter came to be. The rest tended to find blame in others. Sometimes that was justified, sometimes it was mere scapegoating. (I'm looking at YOU, Gulliman.)

I am not getting it. Wo did Guilliman blame for what?

 

While our great primarch, Dorn, battled to defend Terra, the Ultramarines arrived too late bringing only their excuses with them.

 

(I recall reading somewhere that the Imperial Fists and Black Templars regard the Ultramarines as something of a gang of posers. It was the Fists that held Terra during the height of the Heresy and then the Ultramarines came down and marched around Terra in their shiny blue armor like lords of the manor...)

 

Thats a negative. I have evidence showing both IF and BT cooperation/respect with/for the UMs, post Heresy.

 

Except for the whole "shove that codex up your bleeping bleep" part, but the Fists and their soon to be offspring shut up once they were fired upon by the new Imperial Navy...

shoulda just pulled a Russ and keep somewhat quiet, make small moves towards the codex (wolf brothers) and then tell them to flip off. gotta love that style.

 

WLK

[Marshal Rohr]

And yet I find myself unable to feel that way, because of all the primarchs, Dorn struck me as the most willing to admit to his shortcomings and to take action to improve. Hence, our glorious chapter came to be. The rest tended to find blame in others. Sometimes that was justified, sometimes it was mere scapegoating. (I'm looking at YOU, Gulliman.)

I am not getting it. Wo did Guilliman blame for what?

 

While our great primarch, Dorn, battled to defend Terra, the Ultramarines arrived too late bringing only their excuses with them.

 

(I recall reading somewhere that the Imperial Fists and Black Templars regard the Ultramarines as something of a gang of posers. It was the Fists that held Terra during the height of the Heresy and then the Ultramarines came down and marched around Terra in their shiny blue armor like lords of the manor...)

 

Thats a negative. I have evidence showing both IF and BT cooperation/respect with/for the UMs, post Heresy.

 

Except for the whole "shove that codex up your bleeping bleep" part, but the Fists and their soon to be offspring shut up once they were fired upon by the new Imperial Navy...

shoulda just pulled a Russ and keep somewhat quiet, make small moves towards the codex (wolf brothers) and then tell them to flip off. gotta love that style.

 

WLK

 

You need to research it more. Immediately following the Heresy the UMs and IFs went on Crusade TOGETHER, to hunt down the traitors. At the 7 year mark when Guilliman brought forth the Codex, they had their spat, and still continued on crusade together, so no much love lost. At the 10 year mark Dorn went into the Iron Cage, Guilliman went in after him. They had a fight, that was all, they arnt sworn enemies. And Dorn did get to have his cake and eat it with the Black Templars.

[Legatus]

I have no reason to believe that the Ultramarines Chapter and the Imperial Fists Chapterhave anything but respect for each others achievements, seeing how they both follow very similar doctrines and hold similar beliefs. And as M2C points out, both Chapters have a long history of joined campaigns together.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

I never said that had disrespect for one another, i only pointed out that the "spat" between the two primarchs actually came to having shots fire upon the imperial fists fleet.

 

and as you so polietly reccomented M2C, i did a brief bit of research into the actions of the Imperial Fists just after the heresy. According to the Index Astartes article on the Imperial FIsts, they went crusading alone against the enemy, painting their armor black in mouring.

 

While others shaped the new Imperium, Dorn immersed himself in implacable justice

IA Book 2, page 14

 

Whatever the cause, Rogal Dorn was absent from the highest councils until he was summoned back to Terra when Roboute Guilliman, Primarch of the Ultramarines, presented his Codex Astartes as the future of Space Marines

IA Book 2, page 14

 

so again, Dorn was crusading while Guilliman was restructing the Imperium. They were NOWHERE near each other, nor "crusading together"

 

i do realize this is the net, and sarcasm (which my comment was mostly) is often lost as rudeness, but next time it might be more prudent to talk to a forum member with the civility you yourself would like to be treated with.

 

WLK

[Legatus]

I think it is the Iron Warriors Index Astartes that describes how the Imperial Fists are aiding the Ultramarines in a ten years (IIRC) campaign to destroy their bases after the heresy.

 

Edit: Also, my reply was more directed at the comment made by ArcticFox, that the Imperial Fists and the Black Templars do not hold the Ultramarines in high regard.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

I think it is the Iron Warriors Index Astartes that describes how the Imperial Fists are aiding the Ultramarines in a ten years (IIRC) campaign to destroy their bases after the heresy.

 

Edit: Also, my reply was more directed at the comment made by ArcticFox, that the Imperial Fists and the Black Templars do not hold the Ultramarines in high regard.

 

The Iron Warriors IA article only statements of actions taken directly after the HH is the infamous Iron Cage, where Perturabo killed enough Imperial Fists to be elevated into a Daemon Prince (by scraficing their gene-seed). The Ultramarines show up a month after the Imperial Fists land to rescue Dorn and the survivng Fist. Perturabo has no desire to fight two chapters and concentrated on preventing the FIsts from evacuating their dead and wounded.

All on pahe 36 of the First Index Astartes book.

 

WLK

 

and i didnt your comment rude, so no worries there. <_<

[Legatus]

I could have sworn that the Index Astartes Iron Warriors describes in the "after the heresy" section how the Imperial Fists aided the Ultramarines in a several year campaign to destroy their bases and had to realize that they were "like a barbed hook" and very difficult to get rid off once they had fortified a world. But I don't have it with me, so perhaps I am remembering a different source.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

I could have sworn that the Index Astartes Iron Warriors describes in the "after the heresy" section how the Imperial Fists aided the Ultramarines in a several year campaign to destroy their bases and had to realize that they were "like a barbed hook" and very difficult to get rid off once they had fortified a world. But I don't have it with me, so perhaps I am remembering a different source.

 

you are correct in that part, pg 35. It states that:

The Imperial Fists supported the Ultramarines in a decade-long campaign to liberate the subjagetd world. They discovered the Iron Warriors to be like a barbed hook that, once embedded into a victom, could only be removed with great risk of injuring the patient further. The Olmpia garrison held out for two years, eventually triggering their missile stockpiles when defeat was unavoiable.

 

This however precedes the strife these two will have over the Codex, as Guilliman returned to Terra to compose it "officially" and restructure the Imperium. The Imperial Fists will continue their crusade alone.

 

And a side note, to NOT crusade along the Ultramarines would have been impossible at this point in time, as they were the largest legion (soon to be chapter) after the HH. Of all the IA articles, only the Fists goes on to mention the solo crusades.

*quick edit: The Raven Guard also crusaded alone a bit, but they did so to hide the genetic mutations created by Corax.

 

WLK