Which Legion dissapointed you the most?

[Lord_Caerolion]

You have to remember though that Konrad wounded Dorn because he'd admitted to having visions about the Heresy, and Dorn attacked him. You'd think that the Primarchs and the Emperor would put slightly more importance on a vision from a guy whose visions have never been wrong about a civil war between the Legions.

Also, Night Haunter hadn't just assaulted Dorn when he was sent to Istvaan, he'd also blown up his own homeworld. Sending Night Haunter makes no sense whatsoever. He'd already gone rogue at that time, the only reason he wasn't attacked and killed was because the Heresy started. Even a "lesser of two evils" answer doesn't entirely make sense.

[Captain Idaho]

You have to remember though that Konrad wounded Dorn because he'd admitted to having visions about the Heresy, and Dorn attacked him. You'd think that the Primarchs and the Emperor would put slightly more importance on a vision from a guy whose visions have never been wrong about a civil war between the Legions.

Also, Night Haunter hadn't just assaulted Dorn when he was sent to Istvaan, he'd also blown up his own homeworld. Sending Night Haunter makes no sense whatsoever. He'd already gone rogue at that time, the only reason he wasn't attacked and killed was because the Heresy started. Even a "lesser of two evils" answer doesn't entirely make sense.

 

Rogue yes, but the time for word to get by that he was just killing people and not attempting to bringing them into fold of the Imperium was distorted. It can be argued that the destruction of Nostramo (sp?) was actually just in the eyes of other Primarchs, if a little excessive. The place had degenerated into a crime cess-pit, and was certainly in need of severe censure so the destruction could be seen as cleansing by some of the Primarchs.

 

After these events Curze was due to return to Terra as per censure from at least the Imperium if not the Emperor. Don't forget that the Emperor is behind closed doors even when Dorn is later fortifying the planet, and Malacador amongst others was running things in his abscence. It was that very abscence that allowed doubt to creep into many of the traitors hearts in the 1st place.

 

Something very important is obviously going on with the Emperor on Terra, as he was absent from things enimagitcally. Anyway, the Emperor I feel was not too much of a bad father really, as his Sons were adults months travel away from home after all. Chaos was also blocking the Emperor's prescience don't forget.

[Phoebus]

You have to remember though that Konrad wounded Dorn because he'd admitted to having visions about the Heresy, and Dorn attacked him.

Actually, the Index Astartes article states that Dorn confronted Curze about what he had admitted to Fulgrim, and that the two came to blows. It does not state who attacked who. "The Lightning Tower", on the other hand, has Dorn stating that he confronted Curze and that it was the latter who attacked him physically.

 

You'd think that the Primarchs and the Emperor would put slightly more importance on a vision from a guy whose visions have never been wrong about a civil war between the Legions.

What visions? The first time he confided in anyone about them was when he spoke to Fulgrim, who in turn talked to Dorn about them, who in turn confronted Curze, etc.

 

Also, Night Haunter hadn't just assaulted Dorn when he was sent to Istvaan, he'd also blown up his own homeworld. Sending Night Haunter makes no sense whatsoever. He'd already gone rogue at that time, the only reason he wasn't attacked and killed was because the Heresy started. Even a "lesser of two evils" answer doesn't entirely make sense.

I found this odd, as well. Graham McNeill, in his e-mail to me, stated that the orders to head to Isstvan came "in the window between Night Haunter’s attack on Dorn and Nostramo getting totalled." Needless to say, the timing presented in "The Dark King" itself makes that a little difficult to reconcile.

 

The only way I can figure it out is this.

 

1. Dorn gets attacked by Curze. Curze escapes.

2. Curze makes his way to Nostramo, pursued by "scores of ships".

 

Some time passes between #1 and #2, as interstellar travel takes a while. During this time, Nathaniel Garro makes his way to the Phalanx and finds Rogal Dorn. Messages go out to the Primarchs of the nascent Heresy.

 

3. Curze destroys Nostramo Quintus. He receives the communiques regarding the Heresy, but has already been contacted by Horus, and has agreed to side with him.

4. Curze communicates back that he will respond to the call to arms against Horus.

 

Again, the only way I can reconcile this is with the idea that Dorn wanted to crush the rebellion as soon as possible, and that the seven Legions he sent were the closest ones. We know that Horus had maneuvered loyal Legions away (Ultramarines), sent them off to (unwittingly) take care of his dirty work (Space Wolves) or saw them scattered to a number of tasks (Dark Angels). Concurrently, he had ensured that most of the Legions near him when he made his move would be secret traitors.

 

I know it's a stretch, but there you have it. Other than that odd bit of timing, though (attack on Dorn, flight, Nostramo destroyed, and THEN going to help fight Horus), I think everything's fairly straightforward.

 

Cheers,

P.

[Purge The Weak]

Same goes for the Word Bearers. I am not aware of their descent into Chaos being covered in depth in HH books yet, although I do not have all of the books (currently, I am missing "Batte for the Abyss", "Flight of the Einsenstein", "Descent Of Angels", "Fallen Angels", and "Tales of the Heresy") - it seems that by the time any Word Bearers appear in the books, they are already fully in thrall to Chaos. I would absolutely love to see Lorgar and his lot get a novel treatment in the Heresy era, detailing how they fell - given how important their fall is to the overall timeline, I would hope that it is covered in much more detail than "Lorgar worshipped his father, who scorned him, so Lorgar went to join the cult". Until the fall of the Word Bearers is covered, I shall hold off with my judgement of that Legion.

 

You need Tales of Heresy, nice little short story that helps sum it up...

[Legatus]

Does one of the Horus Heresy novels state that the Night Lords were one of the Legions sent to Istvaan V? Because as far as I can tell from browsing through the sources today, they were never mentioned as being one of them. Well, once.

 

- 2nd Edition Codex Chaos deescribes that the Iron Warriors, the Emperor's Children and the Alpha Legion were among the Legions sent to Istvaan V.

 

- The respective IW, EC and AL Index Astartes articles confirm that these three Legions were taking part in the Istvaan V battle. The Index Astartes Iron Warriors contradicts the 2nd Edition Codex and the Index Astartes Emperor's Children in describing that the Iron Warriors were joining the Alpha Legion, the Word Bearers and the Night Lords at Istvaan V.

 

- The 3.5 Codex Chaos Space Marines again contradicts the previous sources in describing that it were the Iron Warriors, the Emperor's Children, the Death Guard and the World Eaters who turned at Istvaan V.

 

 

3/3 sources mention the Iron Warriors, so they were present without a doubt.

 

3/3 sources mention the Emperor's Children. The IA:IW is contradicting those sources. I would tend to consider the IW article flawed.

 

2/3 sources mention the Alpha Legion, as does the IA:IW. The exception is the 3.5 Codex.

 

 

The Index Astartes Iron Warriors mentions the NL and WB, who are not listed in other sources, while the 3.5 Codex mentions the DG and WE, who are also not mentioned in other sources. Personally I would say that given the circumstances of the Night Lords, they are the least likely of the four to have taken part in the Istvaan V battles.

 

I have not checked the Black Library sources. Did they retcon/reinvent the Istvaan V story?

[Captain Idaho]

The Heresy series mentioned the Night Lords being at Istvaan. In addition, Index Astartes Night Lords does too, I think.

[Sons of Horus]

so far the EC disappointed me the most. I expected their fall to be less based on pleasure and more on perfection.

[Legatus]

The Heresy series mentioned the Night Lords being at Istvaan. In addition, Index Astartes Night Lords does too, I think.

As far as I can tell the INdex Astartes Night Lords only explains that the Night Lords were not held accountable because at Istvaan V Horus revealed the full scale of his betrayal. I don't think it actually links the Night Lords themselves to Istvaan V.

[Captain Idaho]

The Heresy series mentioned the Night Lords being at Istvaan. In addition, Index Astartes Night Lords does too, I think.

As far as I can tell the INdex Astartes Night Lords only explains that the Night Lords were not held accountable because at Istvaan V Horus revealed the full scale of his betrayal. I don't think it actually links the Night Lords themselves to Istvaan V.

 

Hmm, I definitely read an IA article that mentioned it, think it was the Iron Warriors actually (which is a great read!).

[Legatus]

Yes, I covered the description from the Iron Warriors Index Astartes. The 2nd Edition Codex lists the IW, AL and EC. The Iron Warriors Index Astartes then lists the IW, AL, NL and WB, and does not list the EC*. The 3.5 Codex then lists the IW, EC, WE and DG, giving an entirely different list altogether, with the exception of the allways listed Iron Warriors.

 

 

*The EC Index Astartes describes them being at Istvaan V though.

[Deathwing70]

Though I havent read a warhammer book since the "Descent of Angels" (so my "new" fluff might not be up to date), just thought I'd share some angles I seem to remember.

 

As said, the big E was working on his webway access thingy while Magnus "contacted" him. It's my understanding that Magnus blew a few fuses doing this which basically opened the portal the Emperor was working on to the warp causing all kinds of daemons to erupt from it. So whether or not the E was too angry or just too occupied to actually read Magnus's message... he had to sit on the Golden Throne to try and keep the portal closed while his Custodes army was busy pushing them back. In my understanding he ordered the Wolves to 'fetch' Magnus because he needed Magnus to take his place on the Golden Throne, seeing as he was the only other psyker strong enough to hold the gate.

Though why send the Wolves? Was there something preventing the Thousand Sons to come on their own? Maybe he knew of the Heresy but feared Horus would ambush Magnus with his superior numbers so he send Russ to escort?

I can see how Horus changing the message from fetch to destroy worked in his favor... Another 2 legions occupied killing each other where they would otherwise have at least 1 more legion to face on Terra.

 

 

I also remember a story of when the Lion and the Wolf did finally arrive on Terra only to find it in flames and the big E fatally wounded. They "fought" their last battle, I meant that sarcastically because basically the Lion blamed the Wolf for delaying them while they might have been able to prevent this (hindsight I know), and drew his sword. All the wolf did was expose his chest because it wasnt worth fighting over. The Lion stabbed his first heart and mere inches of hitting the 2nd heart he changed his mind, begging the wolf for forgiveness.

In my belief the Wolf and the Lion are most opposite of each other but also the closest brothers, and since the Lion "dissapeared" after Caliban was destroyed. I believe that when Russ went off to "look for his friend", he's actually looking for Jonson.

 

I'm not even sure if these 2 stories are "official" or just fanfiction, I can't remember where I read them but I find it funny how such small details changed my views on some of these subjects and opened up alot more possibilities...

[lucas]

The Index Astartes Iron Warriors mentions the NL and WB, who are not listed in other sources, while the 3.5 Codex mentions the DG and WE, who are also not mentioned in other sources. Personally I would say that given the circumstances of the Night Lords, they are the least likely of the four to have taken part in the Istvaan V battles.

 

I have not checked the Black Library sources. Did they retcon/reinvent the Istvaan V story?

In Fulgrim the dropsite massacre is described in detail. The initial forces on Istvaan V were the Sons of Horus, the Emperor's Children, the World Eaters, and the Deathguard against the Salamanders, the Raven Guard, and the Iron Hands.

 

The Legions who arrived as reinforcements but turned on the three loyalist legions were the Night Lords, the Iron Warriors, the Word Bearers, and the Alpha Legion.

[Vulcan He'Stan]

Though I havent read a warhammer book since the "Descent of Angels" (so my "new" fluff might not be up to date), just thought I'd share some angles I seem to remember.

 

As said, the big E was working on his webway access thingy while Magnus "contacted" him. It's my understanding that Magnus blew a few fuses doing this which basically opened the portal the Emperor was working on to the warp causing all kinds of daemons to erupt from it. So whether or not the E was too angry or just too occupied to actually read Magnus's message... he had to sit on the Golden Throne to try and keep the portal closed while his Custodes army was busy pushing them back. In my understanding he ordered the Wolves to 'fetch' Magnus because he needed Magnus to take his place on the Golden Throne, seeing as he was the only other psyker strong enough to hold the gate.

Though why send the Wolves? Was there something preventing the Thousand Sons to come on their own? Maybe he knew of the Heresy but feared Horus would ambush Magnus with his superior numbers so he send Russ to escort?

I can see how Horus changing the message from fetch to destroy worked in his favor... Another 2 legions occupied killing each other where they would otherwise have at least 1 more legion to face on Terra.

 

 

I also remember a story of when the Lion and the Wolf did finally arrive on Terra only to find it in flames and the big E fatally wounded. They "fought" their last battle, I meant that sarcastically because basically the Lion blamed the Wolf for delaying them while they might have been able to prevent this (hindsight I know), and drew his sword. All the wolf did was expose his chest because it wasnt worth fighting over. The Lion stabbed his first heart and mere inches of hitting the 2nd heart he changed his mind, begging the wolf for forgiveness.

In my belief the Wolf and the Lion are most opposite of each other but also the closest brothers, and since the Lion "dissapeared" after Caliban was destroyed. I believe that when Russ went off to "look for his friend", he's actually looking for Jonson.

 

I'm not even sure if these 2 stories are "official" or just fanfiction, I can't remember where I read them but I find it funny how such small details changed my views on some of these subjects and opened up alot more possibilities...

 

I dont think that Johnson and Russ are the closest brothers, there are a few more stable relationships between the Primarchs than them e.g. Ferrus Manus and Fulgrim (before he cut off his head of course). They definitely have a very competetive attitude towards each other, maybe more so than any other chapters who generally just boasted about thier victories and prowess. Wasnt there a battle which involved the Dark Angels and the Space Wolves at some point and Russ was infuriated because the enemy leader had called him the lap dog of the Emperor? Johnson killed the traitorous leader and Russ struck him because he wanted the leaders head personally. Pretty sure this is what started the inter competition between the chapters every year (i think) when they send thier best fighters to kick seven shades of s**t out of each other?

 

I find the dissapearance of Russ a little strange as i was always sure he actually died or was dying.

 

"Listen closely Brothers, for my life's breath is all but spent. There shall come a time far from now when our chapter itself is dying, even as I now am dying, and our foes shall gather to destroy us. Then my children, I shall list'n for your call from whatever realms of death hold me, and come I shall no-matter what laws of life and death forbid. At the end I will be there. For the final battle. For the Wolftime." -Leman Russ (Warhammer 40,000 Chapter Approved - Book Of The Astronomican)

 

So pretty sure he didnt go looking for his 'best friend' Johnson.

 

Also, i dont think that the Emperor actually sent the Space Wolves to 'sheperd' or bodyguard Magnus back to Terra to let him sit on the throne. He unleashed them on the Thousand Sons solely because he knew they would make a thorough job of killing them all. Russ is not the primarch you would have sent to undertake a subtle mission such as bodyguarding, especially when Dorn or another more tactically sound primarch would be at hand.

 

Besides it states in one of the HH books (i foget which one) that Horus was told by somebody that the Emperor had sent the Wolf to crush Prospero. Pretty much burying all ideas of reconcilliation. Remember that Magnus had been thoroughly chastised once before by the Emperor for practicing sorcery.

 

Anyway, we all know that Leman Russ eventually broke Magnu's back over his knee... end.

 

So then back to the original question at hand. I think the most dissapointing Legion in the HH was the Alpha Legion who as far as im aware took a back seat from the start and waitied to see who won.

[Phoebus]

I dont think that Johnson and Russ are the closest brothers, ...

I think that (ironically, given all their fighting and squabbling) Russ was the only true friend the Lion ever had after the events of "Descent of Angels". The Lion's upbringing, compounded by Luther's betrayal, ensured that he would always have a hard time connecting with people, and thus I like to think that his dysfunctional brotherhood with Russ might have been one that ultimately relied on strong bonds and comraderie.

 

I really hope that the closing books of the Heresy touch on this, especially given that I believe it was the Dark Angels who provided the unnamed "unexpected help" to the Space Wolves following Prospero (when they were being assailed by the Alpha Legion).

 

Wasnt there a battle which involved the Dark Angels and the Space Wolves at some point and Russ was infuriated because the enemy leader had called him the lap dog of the Emperor? Johnson killed the traitorous leader and Russ struck him because he wanted the leaders head personally. Pretty sure this is what started the inter competition between the chapters every year (i think) when they send thier best fighters to kick seven shades of s**t out of each other?

You are correct. That story is a cornerstone in Dark Angels (and Space Wolves) fluff.

 

"Listen closely Brothers, for my life's breath is all but spent. There shall come a time far from now when our chapter itself is dying, even as I now am dying, and our foes shall gather to destroy us. Then my children, I shall list'n for your call from whatever realms of death hold me, and come I shall no-matter what laws of life and death forbid. At the end I will be there. For the final battle. For the Wolftime." -Leman Russ (Warhammer 40,000 Chapter Approved - Book Of The Astronomican)

I actually never saw that in the Book of the Astronimcan, and thus was very surprised when I first saw it in the new Space Wolf Codex.

 

Also, i dont think that the Emperor actually sent the Space Wolves to 'sheperd' or bodyguard Magnus back to Terra to let him sit on the throne. He unleashed them on the Thousand Sons solely because he knew they would make a thorough job of killing them all.

 

Horus makes it quite clear that he has altered the Emperor's orders so that Russ thinks his duty is to have him killed.

 

 

That having been said, I don't think the Emperor brought Magnus back to sit him on the Throne (or at least not just to do that), but to censure him (and maybe also have him sit on the Throne).

 

So then back to the original question at hand. I think the most dissapointing Legion in the HH was the Alpha Legion who as far as im aware took a back seat from the start and waitied to see who won.

Eh? B)

 

No... Once Alpharius

was convinced that the Cabal's message was true

he pretty much acted immediately toward his desired endstate. He

attacked the Imperial forces co-located with his Legion

and was one of the four Legions that sprung the trap at Isstvan V. Following this, he and his men fought both the Space Wolves and the White Scars. Following the Heresy, they continued fighting the Ultramarines and the Imperium at large.

 

It's the Dark Angels who were given the "fence-sitter" insult for a long time, based on the testimony of a Fallen who was himself guilty of gross crimes against Humanity. Thus far, though, the Horus Heresy novel have not shown this at all, and Lion El'Jonson has taken great risks to combat Horus and his forces.

 

Cheers,

P.

[Tyyr]

I don't really see Lorgar and the Word Bearers as disappointing. To me it really shows the Emperor's tremendous arrogance. Lorgar was a huge preacher and when the Emp showed up he thought he was meeting god. Instead the Emperor tells him he's no god, there are no gods, now take your legion and subjugate countless worlds destroying their relgion and turning them all into good little atheists. He sent a preacher to force people to atheism. Lorgar and the Word Bearers weren't a disappointment, they were an inevitability. The Emperor assumed that just because he was awesome Lorgar would forsake everything he believed in and completely change his nature. Heck, the same with Angron and the World Eaters and Curze and the Night Lords. All three would have been better off left where the Emp found them, their formative experiences pretty much doomed them as far as usefulness in the Crusade went. Its not like it would have even taken long to figure out they were permanently damaged. Hell Angron proved it within seconds of meeting the Emperor, a little investigation of Cruze's homeworld would have revealed how he dealt with problems. Lorgar wore his issues on his sleeve. Crusade or not the Emperor couldn't spare a day or two to learn a bit more about the guys he's going to be putting in charge of the most powerful military force the galaxy has ever seen? The Emperor's hubris made him take them, assuming his shear awesomeness would change them and make them good little Crusaders. Oops.

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

 

Konrad Curze? The poor man grew up bereft of any human companionship in a world of vile criminals and murderers. I feel pity for him, not a sense of disappointment...

 

Then he should have gone crazy before the Emp found him, not after. All the things he was lacking he had in bounty with brother primarchs and the Emp.

 

He went crazy after the Emperor found him? The one Primarch who killed criminals in a manner associated with psychotic rage and serial killers, who grew up alone feeding off of rats, stray dogs and later the corpses that clogged the drains in the city, and who also was given to mad visions? Clearly damaged goods well before the Emperor came visiting. I'd say he was quite mad by the time he was informed of visitors from the stars.

 

As for my own opionion, the Word Bearers. They got told off for taking too long and for worshipping a figure who admitted he was no god. Instead of turning this into something positive and embracing the Imperial Truth(or even just keeping their traps shut and nodding before resuming the worship if not the building of temples) they went off and found Chaos.

[Raulmichile]

To me, the second legion. These guys were so dissapointing that got their data erased. :devil:

[Lord_Caerolion]

As for my own opionion, the Word Bearers. They got told off for taking too long and for worshipping a figure who admitted he was no god. Instead of turning this into something positive and embracing the Imperial Truth(or even just keeping their traps shut and nodding before resuming the worship if not the building of temples) they went off and found Chaos.

 

Once again, I think people don't fully understand the trauma Lorgar would have gone through. It's the equivalent of Jesus coming back, and telling the pope that the he's wasted his life, because Jesus isn't actually divine, and then expecting the pope to just accept it, and fundamentally change his world-view and personality.

To put it another way: your boss/parents/whoever tells you "your favourite band utterly sucks, and doesn't deserve to have cds made. Go pick another favourite genre of music." If you can't manage to do something as small as pick a different favourite band because your boss/parents/whoever tells you to, imagine how hard it would be to radically change who you are.

 

 

Lorgar completely broke down when the Emperor chastised him. His entire life had been devoted to theology and worship. He united his planet in the name of his god. Finally, his wildest dreams come true, and he meets his god. However, his "god" turns around and abuses him for his worship. With such a fundamentalist mindset, the conclusion he'd probably draw is that the Emperor in fact isn't the God he'd worshipped on his home planet, that the Emperor is an imposter, and he'd look for the 'true' God. Unfortunately, that's where Kor Phaeron comes in...

[Tyyr]

Precisely, the Emperor expect Lorgar to do a complete and total 180. Not only did he destroy Lorgar's entire belief system, he expected Lorgar to go out and start destroying everyone else's. Would you expect an evangelical preacher to make a good enforcer for atheism?

 

Everything I read just keeps convincing me more and more that the Emperor's arrogance was the ultimate root of the Heresy and the downfall of the Imperium. He was just so full of himself he couldn't imagine everyone not falling perfectly into line with his will. He might have said he was no god but he sure acted like he thought he was one.

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

As for my own opionion, the Word Bearers. They got told off for taking too long and for worshipping a figure who admitted he was no god. Instead of turning this into something positive and embracing the Imperial Truth(or even just keeping their traps shut and nodding before resuming the worship if not the building of temples) they went off and found Chaos.

 

Once again, I think people don't fully understand the trauma Lorgar would have gone through. It's the equivalent of Jesus coming back, and telling the pope that the he's wasted his life, because Jesus isn't actually divine, and then expecting the pope to just accept it, and fundamentally change his world-view and personality.

To put it another way: your boss/parents/whoever tells you "your favourite band utterly sucks, and doesn't deserve to have cds made. Go pick another favourite genre of music." If you can't manage to do something as small as pick a different favourite band because your boss/parents/whoever tells you to, imagine how hard it would be to radically change who you are.

 

 

Lorgar completely broke down when the Emperor chastised him. His entire life had been devoted to theology and worship. He united his planet in the name of his god. Finally, his wildest dreams come true, and he meets his god. However, his "god" turns around and abuses him for his worship. With such a fundamentalist mindset, the conclusion he'd probably draw is that the Emperor in fact isn't the God he'd worshipped on his home planet, that the Emperor is an imposter, and he'd look for the 'true' God. Unfortunately, that's where Kor Phaeron comes in...

 

"Oh noes, my god is not a god!" And he falls to Chaos... To me this smacks of being a little light in the brain case. He had plenty of options. And one of those was to simply keep worshipping and not making a public thing of it. And the band example is rather poor. Especially since I've been there. And I didn't change. I simply kept my mouth shut about it, and kept going.

 

And if you're right about Lorgar not being able to cope, he falls even lower in my esteem...

 

FYI, I'm an atheist. Apostate, in fact. If a normal human can do it, a Primarch who can't is rather poor.

[Legatus]

Regardless of how much it pained Lorgar, it was still based entirely on his own misunderstanding of what the Emperor expected of him. The other Primarchs did not seem to be under that false impression, so it probably not his fault for being unclear about Lorgars duty.

[Raulmichile]

I also think Big Bob should have spent more time with Lorgar when he was found.

 

Not all the primarchs were at the same capacity to understand the great scheme of things at the time of their discovery and the Emperor had to be aware of that and plan accordingly how to bring his son back from religion to scientific enlightment. Something not easy at all as old habits die hard.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

I also think Big Bob should have spent more time with Lorgar when he was found.

 

Not all the primarchs were at the same capacity to understand the great scheme of things at the time of their discovery and the Emperor had to be aware of that and plan accordingly how to bring his son back from religion to scientific enlightment. Something not easy at all as old habits die hard.

 

its easy to say they should have spent more time together, played catch, and so on, but the Emperor was leading an empire. i dont think running a empire gives you time to stop, smell the roses and engage religious fanatics (which lograr was) in theology debates just because he cant cope with the way things are.

 

now lets picture this same empire on a galaxy wide crusade... the emperor's free time is saved for sleeping and recovering from crusading. holding the hands of people who refuse to face facts isnt one of them.

 

the only thing i would say against the EMperor is the mistake of allowing lograr command of any armed force. that is the only real red flag i see.

 

WLK

[Raulmichile]

I also think Big Bob should have spent more time with Lorgar when he was found.

 

Not all the primarchs were at the same capacity to understand the great scheme of things at the time of their discovery and the Emperor had to be aware of that and plan accordingly how to bring his son back from religion to scientific enlightment. Something not easy at all as old habits die hard.

 

its easy to say they should have spent more time together, played catch, and so on, but the Emperor was leading an empire. i dont think running a empire gives you time to stop, smell the roses and engage religious fanatics (which lograr was) in theology debates just because he cant cope with the way things are.

 

now lets picture this same empire on a galaxy wide crusade... the emperor's free time is saved for sleeping and recovering from crusading. holding the hands of people who refuse to face facts isnt one of them.

 

the only thing i would say against the EMperor is the mistake of allowing lograr command of any armed force. that is the only real red flag i see.

 

WLK

 

 

That's precisely what I was talking about, that the Emperor shouldn't have lent an entire army of the deadliest warriors in the galaxy to a man who clearly wasn't prepared for that. Lorgar simply wasn't in the same channel as the Emperor.

 

Now we are not talking about any person, we are talking about one of HIS only twenty sons. :P Big Bob should find some spare time to get Lorgar in line and show him his place in the new order of things. We are not talking about any lowly servant of which there are billions; we are talking a bout a primarch tasked with a great responsability.

[Marshal Rohr]

As for my own opionion, the Word Bearers. They got told off for taking too long and for worshipping a figure who admitted he was no god. Instead of turning this into something positive and embracing the Imperial Truth(or even just keeping their traps shut and nodding before resuming the worship if not the building of temples) they went off and found Chaos.

 

Once again, I think people don't fully understand the trauma Lorgar would have gone through. It's the equivalent of Jesus coming back, and telling the pope that the he's wasted his life, because Jesus isn't actually divine, and then expecting the pope to just accept it, and fundamentally change his world-view and personality.

To put it another way: your boss/parents/whoever tells you "your favourite band utterly sucks, and doesn't deserve to have cds made. Go pick another favourite genre of music." If you can't manage to do something as small as pick a different favourite band because your boss/parents/whoever tells you to, imagine how hard it would be to radically change who you are.

 

 

Lorgar completely broke down when the Emperor chastised him. His entire life had been devoted to theology and worship. He united his planet in the name of his god. Finally, his wildest dreams come true, and he meets his god. However, his "god" turns around and abuses him for his worship. With such a fundamentalist mindset, the conclusion he'd probably draw is that the Emperor in fact isn't the God he'd worshipped on his home planet, that the Emperor is an imposter, and he'd look for the 'true' God. Unfortunately, that's where Kor Phaeron comes in...

 

"Oh noes, my god is not a god!" And he falls to Chaos... To me this smacks of being a little light in the brain case. He had plenty of options. And one of those was to simply keep worshipping and not making a public thing of it. And the band example is rather poor. Especially since I've been there. And I didn't change. I simply kept my mouth shut about it, and kept going.

 

And if you're right about Lorgar not being able to cope, he falls even lower in my esteem...

 

FYI, I'm an atheist. Apostate, in fact. If a normal human can do it, a Primarch who can't is rather poor.

 

 

Primarchs have trouble dealing with the mudane. What may be a small deal to you is a much bigger deal to someone who is capable of understanding things far more comprehensively than you.