To Vamp or not to Vamp?

[Lestat]

Hi, reading through various posts accross many differing topics I noticed a love/hate relationship with the Vampiric nature of the Blood Angels fluff. Why do so many people hate the fact that the Blood Angels are vampires? To me it is all part and parcel of the fluff - and part of the fluff that I really enjoy.

 

When I started playing 40k way back in 2nd edition, it was the fluff that really sold the Blood Angels to me. I loved the imagery of them fighting against thier nature and trying to find a cure for the blood-curse. I also loved having an ad-hoc unit of blood crazed madmen who wanted nothing better than to rip out thier enemies throats and gorge on thier blood. My favourite model was Mephiston - I think I ended painting about three different reincarnations of him over the years............

 

Of course, back then I was a fully-fleged metal-head dressed from top to toe in black denim and leather with long hair so the gothic, vampiric imagery of the Blood Angels instantly appealed. Although I was never a Goth and Emo hadn't been invented yet (thank the Emperor!) there were certain attractions between the music I listened too and the fluff of the Blood Angels. I remember fondly playing and painting to Slayers Reign In Blood album......................... anyway back on topic.

 

What I am trying to get around to saying is, why do so many people hate the vampiric nature of the Blood Angels? I mean, the clues are there in thier name and background fluff - why do so many people complain about GW playing up the Blood Angels darker side?

 

The reasons I chose Blood Angels are as I have already explained - I loved the background fluff. The stories and imagery really appealed to me. To give an example, thats why I don't play Ultramarines - they are just too vanilla for me.

 

There must be a reason why people choose Blood Angels. But the biggest draw not just for my beloved vampires but for any chapter is, in my humble opinion, purely and simply the fluff. If people hate the true nature of the Blood Angels, then I have to ask you this - why did you choose them in the first place? Thats like playing Space Wolves and hating the Norse background of them.

 

Now, I am not trying to upset anyone - I am just trying to get an understanding of other peoples opinions on this matter. I still fully intend to play, paint and model my Blood Angels true to thier nature. Please feel free to reply and be completely open and honest as to your reasons why you chose the Blood Angels - whether it is because you love the colour scheme or a certain character appeals to you or whatever.

 

To me, Blood Angels are forever and always vampires in space.

[Brother Chris]

Lestat and Brother Chris obviously share the same gene seed! What the man said. There are 900-odd chapters which aren't vampires and a tiny group which are. I love the fact that in the grim darkness of the 41st millenium, the finest that humanity has to offer includes vampires and were-wolves. Shows what a horrible distopia the imperium of man actually is. I think they are Anne Rice style vampires (hence, I presume, Lestat) so something of a remove from the Hammer Dracula and Nosferatu camp represented by vampire counts. Angel and Spike (from Buffy) were just close enough to the Lestat paradigm for me to be happy, but I think the Goth/Emo teen vampires are probably what is giving the idea a bad vibe (I do wear a long black leather coat myself, but that is more for the Dark Heresy side of the hobby!). I actually think, for all his faults, Swallow handles the vampiric side quite well. It is very understated, not a term in use (something of a racial slur) of the Blood Angels, but is lurking in the background to send shivers down the spine of ordinary humans who chance to see them rising from their golden coffins to fight for the emperor.

[SnorriSnorrison]

For me, the vampiric fluff isn`t the problem at all.

What sometimes displeases myself is that the Blood Angels are seen as loyal berzerkers. Yes, they are an assault-orientated army, but thats on the surface.

If somebody searched in the depth of their fluff, he would see the proud and cursed aspects of their existence.

 

There certainly is a vampiric fluff in the Blood Angels history, but it is rather subliminal, every brother tries to keep himself away from the dark illusions in his mind.

What might be a problem is that GW will be in the mood to make the Blood Angels "Vampire Angels", a total change of the current situation.

 

 

Snorri

 

 

PS:

 

Slayer rocks!

[Arschbombe]

For me the disdain for the vampiric aspect of the Blood Angels, has to do with the ubiquity of the vampire meme in the popular culture. Vampires are everywhere. We have tons of TV shows and movies about sexy vampires fighting their nature, falling in love, yadda yadda. It's totally overdone and played out.

 

The minimal level of vampire material that's in the fluff now is OK. It's vampire-like, but the Blood Angels are not vampires. They don't need to feed. They don't sleep in coffins, have wolves or bats as familiars, they don't burn up in sunlight. They don't have sexy girlfriends they can't touch etc.

 

Any prospective changes to make them more like vampires is bad for them IMO. If they were to become Vampire Counts in Space, I'd drop the army.

[Leonaides]

Why are they 'vampires' at all?

 

There are fluff notes that the BA's them selves rather dislike the suggestion even being made... The name comes from "the tribes of pure blood", frequently shortened to simply "the blood", as a terem for the full humans who survived on Baal amidst teh wandering canibal mutants. I suspect that anyone developing vampiric tendancies would have been killed immediately upon discovery within any such tribe.

 

The rage is not vampiric, and in the older fluff, marines who were inducted into the DC werent neccessarily fully fallen to it yet - but were falling (an important distinction, as they still may have retained a bit more self control). The red thirst is only a rumour, a published on I'll conceed, so it has slightly more weight than might ordinarily be the case.

 

The use of blood in ceremonies - well, I dont see large numbers of people claiming that the Mortifacters are vampires, and they certainly use blood, and the ingestion of blood, in their ceremonies/rituals. Its a very symbolic thing, adn fittgin for a warrior culture, such as any marines chapter might be. Would warriors who slit their palms and mingled their blood in a gesture of brotherhood or solemnity be classed as vampires?

 

They sleep in sarcophagii - but do they? What are these things - they are pretty much self-contained medical units, we use machines now that remove teh blood from a body, purify/detoxify it, and return it to the body. is this enough for vampireism? The fact that they sleep in them - is this just good time management? Using what would usually simply be downtime to catch up on medical assessments, monitor and adjust chemical imbalances and implant condition so that it doesnt take time away from the marines training schedule...

 

To me, its more like they are a group who are at high risk of suffering a serious mental illness. To define them by the possible end product of that illness, (which they actively seek to avoid - going as far as throwing themselves into hopeless situations where they are practically guaranteed to die) despite a long and honourable life spent in the service of the Emperor upholding the highest ideals, is a dis-service. The BA's dont define themselves as vampires, nor do they define themselves as DC, but a lot of people seem to do so.

 

Perhaps Lestat, you could modify your first post thusly:

"paint and model my Blood Angels true to my idea of thier nature"?

[Lestat]

Lestat and Brother Chris obviously share the same gene seed! What the man said. There are 900-odd chapters which aren't vampires and a tiny group which are. I love the fact that in the grim darkness of the 41st millenium, the finest that humanity has to offer includes vampires and were-wolves. Shows what a horrible distopia the imperium of man actually is. I think they are Anne Rice style vampires (hence, I presume, Lestat) so something of a remove from the Hammer Dracula and Nosferatu camp represented by vampire counts. Angel and Spike (from Buffy) were just close enough to the Lestat paradigm for me to be happy, but I think the Goth/Emo teen vampires are probably what is giving the idea a bad vibe (I do wear a long black leather coat myself, but that is more for the Dark Heresy side of the hobby!). I actually think, for all his faults, Swallow handles the vampiric side quite well. It is very understated, not a term in use (something of a racial slur) of the Blood Angels, but is lurking in the background to send shivers down the spine of ordinary humans who chance to see them rising from their golden coffins to fight for the emperor.

 

Exactly my point - the vampire is there in the underlying fluff. That part of the fluff is what drew me to the Blood Angels in the first place.

And yes, my name is a nod to the Anne Rice books.

 

For me, the vampiric fluff isn`t the problem at all.

What sometimes displeases myself is that the Blood Angels are seen as loyal berzerkers. Never did see the Blood Angels as loyal Berzerkers to be honestYes, they are an assault-orientated army, but thats on the surface.

If somebody searched in the depth of their fluff, he would see the proud and cursed aspects of their existence.

 

There certainly is a vampiric fluff in the Blood Angels history, but it is rather subliminal, every brother tries to keep himself away from the dark illusions in his mind.

What might be a problem is that GW will be in the mood to make the Blood Angels "Vampire Angels", a total change of the current situation.

 

 

Snorri

 

 

PS:

 

Slayer rocks!

 

Again, it is the suggestion that the Blood Angels are vampires in the underlying fluff which is the important part. If you ignore that, then you lose some of thier flavour. But on the flipside, GW has to be careful not to turn the vampire influences into "True Blood" style Marines, but keep more of an Anne Rice flavour running through the fluff.

 

For me the disdain for the vampiric aspect of the Blood Angels, has to do with the ubiquity of the vampire meme in the popular culture. Vampires are everywhere. We have tons of TV shows and movies about sexy vampires fighting their nature, falling in love, yadda yadda. It's totally overdone and played out.

I would have to agree there. When I started playing Blood Angels, vampires were something taboo. They were the work of some fantastic films and fiction. Now it seems every new trendy film/book/TV program is about them.

The minimal level of vampire material that's in the fluff now is OK. It's vampire-like, but the Blood Angels are not vampires. They don't need to feed. I remember a story way back in 2nd edition that did suggest that the Blood Angels did indeed feed. They were stationed on a planet and members of the population turned up dead and completely drainded of blood. They don't sleep in coffins, have wolves or bats as familiars, they don't burn up in sunlight. They don't have sexy girlfriends they can't touch etc.

 

Any prospective changes to make them more like vampires is bad for them IMO. If they were to become Vampire Counts in Space, I'd drop the army.

 

 

Why are they 'vampires' at all? Because that is what is suggested at in the fluff.

 

There are fluff notes that the BA's them selves rather dislike the suggestion even being made... The name comes from "the tribes of pure blood", frequently shortened to simply "the blood", as a terem for the full humans who survived on Baal amidst teh wandering canibal mutants.Do not cannibalism and blood drinking go hand in hand? I suspect that anyone developing vampiric tendancies would have been killed immediately upon discovery within any such tribe.

 

The rage is not vampiric, and in the older fluff, marines who were inducted into the DC werent neccessarily fully fallen to it yet - but were falling (an important distinction, as they still may have retained a bit more self control). The red thirst is only a rumour, a published on I'll conceed, so it has slightly more weight than might ordinarily be the case. If you have access to it, check page 21 of Codex: Angels of Death. In my mind, that is the Holy (Red) Grail of Blood Angels fluff.

 

The use of blood in ceremonies - well, I dont see large numbers of people claiming that the Mortifacters are vampires, and they certainly use blood, and the ingestion of blood, in their ceremonies/rituals. Its a very symbolic thing, adn fittgin for a warrior culture, such as any marines chapter might be. Would warriors who slit their palms and mingled their blood in a gesture of brotherhood or solemnity be classed as vampires?No, but the Blood Angels are known to injest the blood as part of the ceremony.

 

They sleep in sarcophagii - but do they? What are these things - they are pretty much self-contained medical units, we use machines now that remove teh blood from a body, purify/detoxify it, and return it to the body. is this enough for vampireism? The fact that they sleep in them - is this just good time management? Using what would usually simply be downtime to catch up on medical assessments, monitor and adjust chemical imbalances and implant condition so that it doesnt take time away from the marines training schedule...I quote from the aforementioned Codex. "Perhaps the strangest of all the Chapters traits is the habit of sleeping whenever possible in the sarcophagi used to create them. In recent years the Sanguinary priests have created filters to purify the blood of their Brother Space Marines." So in other words, it is only recently that the sarcophagi have been modified to allow this.

 

To me, its more like they are a group who are at high risk of suffering a serious mental illness. To define them by the possible end product of that illness, (which they actively seek to avoid - going as far as throwing themselves into hopeless situations where they are practically guaranteed to die) despite a long and honourable life spent in the service of the Emperor upholding the highest ideals, is a dis-service. The BA's dont define themselves as vampires, nor do they define themselves as DC, but a lot of people seem to do so. I would have to disagree. It is not a "mental illness" - it is more akin to a genetic flaw. Once again I look to the Codex. " The Blood Angels are unique in that deeply engraved within their gene-seed is the encoded experience of Sanguinius, and most deeply imprinted of all is the memory of his final battle with Horus."

 

Perhaps Lestat, you could modify your first post thusly:

"paint and model my Blood Angels true to my idea of thier nature"?Everyone is entitled to their opinion. What has been said has been said.

 

 

As I mentioned in the first post, the vampire aspects of the Blood Angels are what drew me to them. Those aspects are as much part of their flavour as are the fact that each one was a wondering nomad on Baal. You take away part of that flavour, and you lose a hell of a lot. But, you have to be carefull to keep it balanced.

The Blood Angels are fierce and nobel warriors. They enjoy perfecting fine arts and sculptures and have even turned warfare into another outlet for their artistry. The fact that each and every one is cursed and could fall to the curse is what makes them stronger. Fighting it at every turn by any means necessary has become a fact of life for the Blood Angels - they cannot simply ignore the Red Thirst. To do so would see them devolve into bestial creatures something akin to the Wulfen.

 

Please keep the responses coming. I can see that no-one person is right or wrong on this subject. I just want to see peoples opinions on why they hate the fact that in the fluff the suggestion of vampirism is there. Remember, each person is rightly entitled to their own opnion. I am not trying to change anyone's mind, but purely trying to get my point accross.

[Starblayde]

Calling Blood Angels "Space Vampires" is even lazier than calling Space Wolves "Space Vikings", as it boils down the entire chapter to just one facet of an extremely complex and well thought out backstory. I've even seen people suggesting on B&C that Blood Angels are all Emo, for crying out loud, because they've been exposed to that god-awful Twilight and it's soundtrack one too many times.

 

The Renaissance influences, particularly in regard to character names and their appreciation/creation of art have nothing to do with Space Vampires. The Black Rage has nothing to do with Space Vampires, Sanguinius was not a Space Vampire. The Red Thirst - which I'd say is more a cultural phenomenon within the chapter instead of any actual physical/biological need for it, but that's beside the point - has sufficient background fluff to make it not be Vampires iiiin Spaaaaaaace!

 

Of course, your argument is the blood drinking/injecting and, sarcophagus sleeping, but remember that this does not make them vampires, no more than wearing a black trenchcoat and sunglasses makes you Neo. It's all explained away/handwaved in the fluff, as I'm sure you've read. They're Astartes with a (unsurprisingly strong) blood fixation, not Vampires with power armour.

[DeathTyrant]

I have no problem with Vampires like the ones from Vampire: The Masquerade, Blade, and other stuff like that.

 

Just so long as people don't confuse them with the ones in Twilight.

[Red Fury]

I am a little mixed on the "vampire" issue. First off, they are NOT vampires. The marines do not run around feeding on the blood of others...ever. Even when falling to the Black Rage, it is the feelings of anger and revenge for their fallen primarch that drives them so crazy. And the few rumors of BAs falling to the Red Thirst ends the marines career as a soldier and sees them locked up someplace on Baal. There are zero BAs on the battlefield feeding on blood.

 

If fact, aren't the Blood Angels named for the single tear of blood shed by Sanguinius upon meeting his father, the Emperor. A blood tear shed by an angel = Blood Angels. Also supported by the Legion/Chapter badge of a single tear drop with angel wings. My point of this is that the BAs name has nothing to do with, and is not at all related to, blood sucking (or vampires) in anyway.

 

BUT, they live unnaturally long, are known to be strikingly good looking (see 'pretty marines'), have a fondness of old but well made items, are bloody lethal in close combat, and are quite secretive too. I think that could be used to describe both BAs or vampires.

 

I think of the 'curse' as I do of illness in todays world, if you live long enough you will eventually die of some disease (curse or cancer). Instead of Vampires, I see the Blood Angels as the 'warrior poets' of the 41st millennium.

 

-Fury

[Angelus Mortifer]

I won't repeat what's been said already, but many have pretty much said what I think too. They're not Space Vampires and the inference of Vampirism is actually people not really reading the fluff properly or in depth. I would not like to see GW lean to the Vampiric side in the new codex as this would be taking things in totally the wrong direction. For a lot of the 40k "design", and especially SM Chapters, GW has taken real world history/imagery/whatever and used it to help define the form and function of what they're trying to do, without essentially a literal, "oh look at that - we'll just take it, slap it on a white canvas and say it's the same by another name". The whole sarcophogi, blood focus, rage/thirst thing are elements of the modern literal perception of what a vampire is and does, but they are used very sparingly as images and reference points to merely define in part who and what our chapter is. You also have to take us in the context to the universe we're in (40k), who we fight for and with, and why.

 

The same can be said of Space Wolves - are they just Space Vikings? Yes, there's a lot of Norse imagery and reference into how they are portrayed, but their background style over various iterations and codices has also included Celtic imagery for example, and they were never known as Vikings. It's just another reference point to flesh out the SW character without making them a literal representation.

 

The one caveat in all this for me however is that the Sgt Lorenzo model from SH, with the fangs, looks absolutley brilliant and I would like to see more of that style/design visually represented in whatever new models we get...

 

but...

 

does that then turn my above arguement totally on it's head? Does a very literal vampiric image of fangs make us more obviously a bunch of Space Vampires now? I personally don't think so. We don't turn into mist, bats, fear sunlight, take very long lie-ins, hate garlic bread, and all the other elements of being Nosferatu and all his little cousins. I know not everyone liked that model specifically for the fangs, but a portion of those in my mind were just seeing a literal translaion again, when there wasn't one to be had.

 

(I've rambled enough I think...)

[Morticon]

I am a little mixed on the "vampire" issue. First off, they are NOT vampires. The marines do not run around feeding on the blood of others...ever. Even when falling to the Black Rage, it is the feelings of anger and revenge for their fallen primarch that drives them so crazy. And the few rumors of BAs falling to the Red Thirst ends the marines career as a soldier and sees them locked up someplace on Baal. There are zero BAs on the battlefield feeding on blood.

 

If fact, aren't the Blood Angels named for the single tear of blood shed by Sanguinius upon meeting his father, the Emperor. A blood tear shed by an angel = Blood Angels. Also supported by the Legion/Chapter badge of a single tear drop with angel wings. My point of this is that the BAs name has nothing to do with, and is not at all related to, blood sucking (or vampires) in anyway.

 

BUT, they live unnaturally long, are known to be strikingly good looking (see 'pretty marines'), have a fondness of old but well made items, are bloody lethal in close combat, and are quite secretive too. I think that could be used to describe both BAs or vampires.

 

I think of the 'curse' as I do of illness in todays world, if you live long enough you will eventually die of some disease (curse or cancer). Instead of Vampires, I see the Blood Angels as the 'warrior poets' of the 41st millennium.

 

-Fury

 

Great point! And something I believe in.

There are aspects of modern vampiric lore that correspond to details of the BA.

References to the sarcophagus, the good looks, the age and of course the issues with blood.

 

All of these things draw from modern cultural references to create something much, much more.

The issue I take with "vampires in space" is that theyre not.

Theyre not undead.

They dont need blood to survive.

Theyre not pagans.

They dont have a pact with the dark gods for immortality.

 

Players have taken the pre-existing cultural cues regarding vamps and applied them in full to the BA chapter. Where as I see those cues as additionally flavour to an existing 40k entity, many people use it as a entirely overriding aspect.

 

The OP mentioned himself that he was into a certain subculture when he joined. Thats what I mean by players taking hints and cues provided and applying modern imagery and mythology to it.

 

Additionally, is it like over-simplifying and saying SWs are werewolves in space?

Yes, the Canis Helix hints as aspects and issues of lycanthropy and the latest book actually details the inclusion of lycanthropic marines - thats not to say that the SWs are werewovles in space- period. They have entities that draw from werewolf mythos.

 

Take a look at Mephiston for us. Hes the closest thing to a modern vampire, and in 3rd ed even had rules for drinking enemies blood. That wasnt the case with the rest of the army though.

 

So in short, I like the ritualistic aspect of the blood drinking. Ceremonies performed with the inclusion of that and the hints and modern vampiric culture whilst simultaneously using it to create something entirely different.

 

Ive not read any of the books though, but, how are the BA portrayed there (as far as vampirism is concerned?) Doesnt seem to me that theres a big focus on it at all?

[igor]

I've even seen people suggesting on B&C that Blood Angels are all Emo, for crying out loud, because they've been exposed to that god-awful Twilight and it's soundtrack one too many times.

That series of books and movies has a heck of a lot to answer for. :P Everytime someone mentions any of the 'Twilight' series, it makes me want to slap them with the Vampire Counts army book, or an Anne Rice novel.

 

Anyway, as others have said, BA's may have some Vampiric aspects to their nature, but they aren't Vampires themselves.

[mattman]

i always liked the vampiric theme with BA since reading that quote in the 2nd edition rulebook ( page number eludes me ) about the inquisitor calling them vampires. either way as long as they arent made out to be blood suckers from transylvania its all fine with me. Though, dracula was my favorite vampire portrayal in literature.

[daboarder]

I've even seen people suggesting on B&C that Blood Angels are all Emo, for crying out loud, because they've been exposed to that god-awful Twilight and it's soundtrack one too many times.

That series of books and movies has a heck of a lot to answer for. :P Everytime someone mentions any of the 'Twilight' series, it makes me want to slap them with the Vampire Counts army book, or an Anne Rice novel.

 

Anyway, as others have said, BA's may have some Vampiric aspects to their nature, but they aren't Vampires themselves.

 

 

personally im tempted to beat the next person who mentions them to death with stroker myself

[Maddog176]

I think the biggest question you need to ask is "what is a Vampire?", there are so many myths and everything going around for different vampires its crazy. I do like the vampire like theme we do have underlayed in our fluff, but we have alot more then that what makes blood angels not just vampires in space. Hell if anyone says we are i don't really care as i love vampires anyway (well as everyone has said that bloody Twilight [even tho its still a vampire as much as i might hate it] excluded :) ) and i can't really be bothered arguing. I think its just as humans we like to fit something into one category, nerd, jock, what ever we love to stereotype.

 

Technically both sides are right when you say we either are or aren't a "vampire" because there is no hard and fast rule on what a vampire is, and we do fall into some of the category's so you can understand why people will say we are. But like everything, nothing black and white or simple, but we like to try and make it that way.

[traitor_dice]

lets get some things straight here....

 

Theyre not undead.

vampires aren't always undead. in fact, what is though to have been the original inspiration for many vampire myths, is the disease porphyric hemophelia. i assure you, they were very much alive.

 

They dont need blood to survive.

I would argue that this can not be actually proven, as with the many rumours of the red thirst it is entirely possible that the BA do drink blood. in other words, just because something isn't proven, it doesn't mean it isn't possible or true.

 

Theyre not pagans.

err.....what is the relevance of this? paganism has nothing to do with the majority of vampire myths. this seems to me like a blatant lack of knowledge on the subject.

 

They dont have a pact with the dark gods for immortality.

to my knowledge, neither do most vampires. the only one i can think of who did, is Dracula, and even then thats depending on which version of the story you read/follow.

 

The marines do not run around feeding on the blood of others...ever.

 

now that shows a lack of knowledge not just on blood angels, but Astartes as a whole.

ever heard of the Omophagea implant? as for the very suggestion that they "never" drink blood.....well their own fluff shows it is used and ingested in rituals. and of course, even when saying they never drink blood (not counting rituals and ceremonys) I challenge you to prove it. the red thirst is a rumour, but if what it hints at is true, of course they aren't going to let every inquisitor and his henchman know about it are they? so of course they wouldn't drink the blood of their enemies on the battlefield. to do so in the open like that would be a very stupid thing to do. odds are if they do they would do so in more private areas, such as aboard their ships or in the fortress monastery.

 

now, as with other issues.

 

they sleep in sarcophagi.

thats gotta be hinting at SOMETHING. taken by itself, it just makes them weird.

 

they live abnormally long, even for marines.

again, a bit of a hint. taken by itself it can be seen purely as a genetic perk.

 

their ritualistic use for blood.

true, many warrior cultures have many symbolic uses and beliefs surrounding blood.

 

they are particularly adept in close combat.

i dunno what the relevance of this is.....true, vampires in most cases are portrayed to have supernatural strength, but not always, and even if they do, they wouldn't limit themselves as such. this may also be interpreted as a latent effect of the black rage, or prevention of. i imagine that fighting an enemy in hand to hand combat would be far more satisfying and better at keeping you busy than firing a bolter is.

 

they create and appreciate art.

this may simply be because they need something to calm their minds and keep them from the black rage.

though it also may be a side effect of haveing such a long life-span, and not necessarily in a vampiric sense. many civilised immortals of particularly old age are shown as haveing an appreciation for art and music, as they have more spare time.

 

 

i can easily see blood angels being vampires. just because they aren't bloodthirsty monsters doesn't mean they aren't. again, see vampires such as Angel. another interesting idea for the portrayal of them as vampires i can see would be if they were something like Alucard from Hellsing..

 

in the end, flat out saying "BA ARE NOT VAMPIRES NOOB!!!!11!!1" is just stupid. for starters, unless you are a writer for GW or have some intimate knowledge on the subject that the rest of the world doesn't, you can't really say this.

the other thing is that it is very obviously hinted at. they have qualities that define a vampire, yet you flat-out say they aren't. just lik something that has all the qualities of a triangle (3 sides, angles totaling 180 degrees etc) must obviously not be a triangle :rolleyes:

 

now, imo i think blood angels are at least intended to be some form of vampire. they use their "abnormalities" to better smite the emperor's foes, but at the same time suppress (or at least try to) the darker side of their nature.

now as much as many may hate on it, i see this as possibly being similar to the vampires of twilight, in that they try so hard to be better than their nature dictates.

 

i do not hate twilight, but i am not a screaming fan either. i see it as being an interesting interpretation of vampires, and as a whole a new view on the subject. however, it is not the best writing i have ever read. i think of it as a good idea, but badly explained.

 

either way, no one save for GW can say that BA are not vampires for certain, and i doubt they will, because guess why the majority of BA players play them......

 

most 40k players (in my experience) are teenagers, or in their early 20's. now, take the average "goth stereotype. odds are they're playing either BA, chaos or daemons. now, how many of these goths do you think make up the playerbase?

given the grim dark nature of 40k, im going to guess more than a few.

 

/end rant.

[Leonaides]

Hypothetical - If the BA's didnt suffer fom the Black Rage for a couple fo thousand years after the heresy, does that mean that they werent vampires then? No rage~no red thirst to fall to (approximately). If that was the case, at what point would you say that they became vampires?

 

@Lestat - the point I was making about canibalism (and indeed blood drinking) was that any BA has come from a society where the greatest enemy, the most dangerous threat to his family, and probably the thing he has spent most of his life fighting - are these mutant canibals... I think that sort of thing might be just enough for him to be a bit anti-vampire...

 

(will be back for proper answer later - stuff to do)

[traitor_dice]

Hypothetical - If the BA's didnt suffer fom the Black Rage for a couple fo thousand years after the heresy, does that mean that they werent vampires then? No rage~no red thirst to fall to (approximately). If that was the case, at what point would you say that they became vampires?

 

i would say that the transition would be quite gradual, as i think an explanation for why they didnt suffer from the black rage, red thirst is because it comes from the geneseed, meaning only the geneseed taken from sanguinius, and marines subsequently created from this line would be affected, as there would be no change to the geneseed of the other marines. this would make it quite believeable, as it would probably take a long time for one line of geneseed to spread throughout the whole legion/chapter, or at least in any signifigant quantity in comparison to the total number of marines.

 

Edited for grammar/spelling.

[Lestat]

lets get some things straight here....

 

Theyre not undead.

vampires aren't always undead. in fact, what is though to have been the original inspiration for many vampire myths, is the disease porphyric hemophelia. i assure you, they were very much alive. Rabies was also believed to be the origins of vampirism.

 

They dont need blood to survive.

I would argue that this can not be actually proven, as with the many rumours of the red thirst it is entirely possible that the BA do drink blood. in other words, just because something isn't proven, it doesn't mean it isn't possible or true. Again, everyone, just read the fluff. The evidence is there.

 

Theyre not pagans.

err.....what is the relevance of this? paganism has nothing to do with the majority of vampire myths. this seems to me like a blatant lack of knowledge on the subject.I agree. There is more Pagan influence in the Space Wolves then there is in the Blood Angels.

 

They dont have a pact with the dark gods for immortality.

to my knowledge, neither do most vampires. the only one i can think of who did, is Dracula, and even then thats depending on which version of the story you read/follow.'Nuff said.

 

The marines do not run around feeding on the blood of others...ever.

 

now that shows a lack of knowledge not just on blood angels, but Astartes as a whole.

ever heard of the Omophagea implant? as for the very suggestion that they "never" drink blood.....well their own fluff shows it is used and ingested in rituals. and of course, even when saying they never drink blood (not counting rituals and ceremonys) I challenge you to prove it. the red thirst is a rumour, but if what it hints at is true, of course they aren't going to let every inquisitor and his henchman know about it are they? so of course they wouldn't drink the blood of their enemies on the battlefield. to do so in the open like that would be a very stupid thing to do. odds are if they do they would do so in more private areas, such as aboard their ships or in the fortress monastery.I remember an Inferno story that clearly showed a Blood Angel sergeant injesting part of the enemy to find out their intentions. Whether that was blood or something else, I can't remember.

 

now, as with other issues.

 

they sleep in sarcophagi.

thats gotta be hinting at SOMETHING. taken by itself, it just makes them weird.

 

they live abnormally long, even for marines.

again, a bit of a hint. taken by itself it can be seen purely as a genetic perk.

 

their ritualistic use for blood.

true, many warrior cultures have many symbolic uses and beliefs surrounding blood.

 

they are particularly adept in close combat.

i dunno what the relevance of this is.....true, vampires in most cases are portrayed to have supernatural strength, but not always, and even if they do, they wouldn't limit themselves as such. this may also be interpreted as a latent effect of the black rage, or prevention of. i imagine that fighting an enemy in hand to hand combat would be far more satisfying and better at keeping you busy than firing a bolter is.

 

they create and appreciate art.

this may simply be because they need something to calm their minds and keep them from the black rage.

though it also may be a side effect of haveing such a long life-span, and not necessarily in a vampiric sense. many civilised immortals of particularly old age are shown as haveing an appreciation for art and music, as they have more spare time.

 

 

i can easily see blood angels being vampires. just because they aren't bloodthirsty monsters doesn't mean they aren't. again, see vampires such as Angel. another interesting idea for the portrayal of them as vampires i can see would be if they were something like Alucard from Hellsing..

 

in the end, flat out saying "BA ARE NOT VAMPIRES NOOB!!!!11!!1" is just stupid. for starters, unless you are a writer for GW or have some intimate knowledge on the subject that the rest of the world doesn't, you can't really say this.

the other thing is that it is very obviously hinted at. they have qualities that define a vampire, yet you flat-out say they aren't. just lik something that has all the qualities of a triangle (3 sides, angles totaling 180 degrees etc) must obviously not be a triangle :lol:

 

now, imo i think blood angels are at least intended to be some form of vampire. they use their "abnormalities" to better smite the emperor's foes, but at the same time suppress (or at least try to) the darker side of their nature.

now as much as many may hate on it, i see this as possibly being similar to the vampires of twilight, in that they try so hard to be better than their nature dictates.

 

i do not hate twilight, but i am not a screaming fan either. i see it as being an interesting interpretation of vampires, and as a whole a new view on the subject. however, it is not the best writing i have ever read. i think of it as a good idea, but badly explained.

 

either way, no one save for GW can say that BA are not vampires for certain, and i doubt they will, because guess why the majority of BA players play them......

 

most 40k players (in my experience) are teenagers, or in their early 20's. now, take the average "goth stereotype. odds are they're playing either BA, chaos or daemons. now, how many of these goths do you think make up the playerbase?

given the grim dark nature of 40k, im going to guess more than a few.

 

/end rant.

 

 

I could not have put it any better myself. The suggestion of vampirism is there in the underlying fluff. I could go on quoting extracts of texts from various GW sources, but I know that I will not convince everyone. All that I am saying, read between the lines. The evidence is there. If you can get hold of it, read through Codex: Angels of Death and you will see what I mean.

Every person is entitled to their own opinion. But to have an enlightened opinion, you need to consider all aspects and all view points.

 

@ Moritcon - I think that particular "subculture" is no longer considered a subculture any more ;)

[traitor_dice]

the point I was making about canibalism (and indeed blood drinking) was that any BA has come from a society where the greatest enemy, the most dangerous threat to his family, and probably the thing he has spent most of his life fighting - are these mutant canibals... I think that sort of thing might be just enough for him to be a bit anti-vampire...

 

to me this would just increase the irony of the BA as a character. they're forced to become something they hate, in order to better serve the emperor.

 

I could not have put it any better myself.

 

why thank you. :lol:

[Jorre]

I think this subject is being completely over analysed. BA have have quiet a few traditions and habits that can be linked similarly to vamparism, but that doesnt actually make them vampires. Sort of like saying someone you heard singing in the shower is a rock star because they sing! Probably a bad comparison, but just because a few Blood Angels loose all control and start ripping people apart and drinking there blood etc doesn't actually make them vampires. It does however prove that they have gone mad, hence the death company. They are space marines, space marines that must fight constantly not to give into madness.

 

Put yourself in the shoes of a civilian in the 41st millenium and I can totaly understand why looking on they might think and spread the rumour that there are space vampires protecting them. When in reality that is just because of the way Blood Angels fight and they are not to know any different, because that is probably the only time they will ever see a Blood Angel.

 

Anyone who really knows the Blood Angels should be able to see this. On the field of battle they are unforgiving and might be mistaken for vampires, but if you really new them you'd know different.

[Lestat]

the point I was making about canibalism (and indeed blood drinking) was that any BA has come from a society where the greatest enemy, the most dangerous threat to his family, and probably the thing he has spent most of his life fighting - are these mutant canibals... I think that sort of thing might be just enough for him to be a bit anti-vampire...

 

to me this would just increase the irony of the BA as a character. they're forced to become something they hate, in order to better serve the emperor.

 

I could not have put it any better myself.

 

why thank you. ^_^

You are welcome :lol:

 

As far as I can make out, there are a couple of distinct "camps" into which people fall. Either you are willing to accept that vampirism is part of the Blood Angels background - however subtly it is suggested at. Or you ignore that part of the Blood Angels fluff and concetrate on the Renaisance side of their nature. This may be because of modern vampiric stories such as Twilight and True Blood, fair enough. But there are certain similarities between the fluff and the Rice/Stoker ideal of vampires.

[traitor_dice]

Anyone who really knows the Blood Angels should be able to see this. On the field of battle they are unforgiving and might be mistaken for vampires, but if you really new them you'd know different.

 

again,

 

"flat out saying "BA ARE NOT VAMPIRES NOOB!!!!11!!1" is just stupid. for starters, unless you are a writer for GW or have some intimate knowledge on the subject that the rest of the world doesn't, you can't really say this."

 

im not against the idea of pseudo/non vampire BA, its just that you literally can not say for certain.

personally, I hope when they do get around to a BA codex that they flesh things out a bit more. some will say its better to leave it a mystery, and i agree that in its own way could be a good thing. however, imo i would like to see a bit of a stronger decision in respect to the vampire thing, as it is at the moment its anyones guess. again, the mystery of it all is good but i feel the way GW have left it at the moment kinda leaves them a littles stuck between vampire and psuedo vampire.

 

for example, the Final Fantasy VII character Vincent Valentine.

he is what is called a pseudo vampire, in that he has many vampiric qualities, but it is also made very clear that he doesn't drink blood, and is not actually a vampire per se.

 

BA have the problem that they're stuck halfway between "real" vampirism and pseudo vampirism, not that i object, as it creates fun discussions such as this.

 

SW are a good example. they have many Lycanthropic/lupine qualities, but it is made clear that they (or at least the majority of them) are not actually werewolves.

 

BA are at the point where they can go either way.

[Arschbombe]

"flat out saying "BA ARE NOT VAMPIRES NOOB!!!!11!!1" is just stupid.

 

 

No, it isn't. The BA are not vampires. End of Story.

 

They are genetically enhanced super soldiers who, because of the death of their primarch and the way new space marines are made, have a tendency to break with reality, believe they are the primarch and experience an uncontrollable lust for killing. If their primarch hadn't been at that battle on earth and hadn't died to protect the emperor, they wouldn't have that problem. They'd be like the Salamanders, or Wolves pining for the return of their long lost daddy.

 

either way, no one save for GW can say that BA are not vampires for certain, and i doubt they will, because guess why the majority of BA players play them......

 

Complete supposition on your part based entirely on your own preferences. I haven't seen any posts here, probably the premier BA discussion place on the web, hinting that people play BA because they're vampire-like until yours.

[Seva]

Count me as one who does NOT play up the whole vampire thing. When I started collecting these guys long ago they were hand to hand guys with lots of shiny jetpacks (that's what I thought the jump packs were) chainswords and most importantly they were RED. I step out for about 15 years and now there is a debate as to weather or not they are space vampires. It's like having the rug pulled out from under me. I don't mind the vampire, Dracula is cool, those guys from near dark were cool, the movie "The Lost Boys" was...where it started to go down hill to the whole "Twilight" vampire thing. It's just not my thing, I don't like fangs with lace and sensitive forlorn looks. I like red marines with guns and swords. Thats just me though. If you want to say YOUR guys are vampires go right ahead, I will always say MY guys aren't. I don't think it's something the chapter needs to make it cool. 7' tall superhumans who kill remorselessly for some dead guy in a gold throne is plenty cool enough for me.

 

Obey the Emperor.