Inquisitor_Lensoven Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 umm.. people seem to be forgetting that in 1st/2nd edition blood angels in assault on a failed roll would spend the next trun DRINKING the blood of those just slain. and if you were dumb enough to assault them at that point they got double attacks and double stregth if i recall correctly. Mephiston was the worst for this with 8 base attacks. I am afraid my man card might have to be revoked as my significant other sat me down and "forced" me to watch the twilight films. i had been reading this topic before i saw the movies so i actually applied this discussion to my thoughts as i watched the films. Fist of all you need to look past all the teenage angsty BS. Once past that the vampire archetype that the Cullens fill is a totally unique manner of the persona. its a familial unit that has stuck together for the better part of a century assisting what is normally prey to them. they are honorable, and avoid the killing/urning of humans as best they can (resisting the red thirst much?) one of the brothers is actually a "fresh" vampire who has not lived off blood other than humans for a longer period of time then being as the movie puts it the "vegans" of vampirisim who goes crazy whenever the chick gets cut (black rage much?) and the whole mannerisims in which they uphold truth and avoid the standard vampire style slayings every night for feeding. all in all as much as i hate to say this. the vampire archetype, this is NOT saying Edward himself who is a big fuggin pansy, put forth by the movie in terms of morality, desires, and thought processes are the same exemplars that make the blood angels the barely restrained blood thirsty nobility. do the twilight 'vampires' put themselves into a position where they are almost constantly surrounded by blood, and put themselves in a position where the chance is there, but they don't take it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonaides Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 Arkio - are you sure about those 2nd ed rules? Because it doesnt say that in my AoD codex. If you're going to type things on the internet, please have the good courtesy of being right, rather than being slapdash and playing chinese whispers with background and rules. Sorry if this comes across as snarky, but if you were writing for a tabloid, even the Daily Star editor would have thrown it back at you for failiure to check your facts. Ref: Blood Angel 'Fangs' - The actual word-for-word honest-injun gods-own-truth quote from C:AoD, page 18, column 2, paragraph 7: "There they see great wonders and look for the first time on the unmasked features of their future Brother Marines, and possibly note with some consternation their sharp teeth and sleekly beautiful features." There is absolutely no statement that BA's have fangs. If they did, dont you think it might, just might, have been worth comment? The only other chapter who are believed to have fangs are the SW's, and their codex makes damnably sure that it comes right out and says that they have fangs. Yet the BA codex does no such thing. It says that they have sharp teeth. I have some sharp teeth, but that doesnt mean I have fangs. While fangs may be sharp teeth, it doesnt follow that sharp teeth are fangs. Similar to how all squares are rectangles, but not all rectangles are squares. Ref: Drinking blood and TT rules in 2nd ed - The only person this applies to is Mephiston. The rule (pg 94, col 2, para 2 and 3) says that if he kills an opponent in H-t-H combat there is a chance that the Red Thirst will overpower his iron will and he will lose control of himself. If he then failed a Ld test then he would have to stop and stay in that spot, drinking the blood of his enemies, until he successfully passes a Ld test at the start of one of his future turns. If the enemy is foolish to charge him during this time, then he will be subject to the rules for "Frenzy", as described in the 40k rulebook. At the time Frenzy (40k rulebook, pg 67, col 1, para 2-9) rules included double base attacks in H-t-H, must charge the enemy if able to do so, immune to all other psychology, cannot use swords to parry and must use follow-up moves to attempt to engame more enmies in H-t-H. Am I being a pedantic so-and-so? Probably yes. Do i want to see another discussion go down the plughole like a bad game of chinese whispers? No. Will I some day learn to not bother to reply to threads like this? I hope not, because that'll be when BA's no longer interest me... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pardan Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 It's an interesting discussion (though I have not bothered to fully read it through as the same arguments kept being repeated over and over again). Personally, I have absolutely no problem with them being some sort of vampire. They are not just "vampires in space", but they have certain similarities. I think it should be taken into account here that, while certainly heroic, no SM chapter is "nice". Space Marines are monstrous warriors. With a noble streak, that may be so, but they are warriors first and foremost. And, if you are more than 9 feet tall, overmuscled, have two hearts and other organs that have no place inside a normal human body, are you not already monstrous enough? Does it really matter whether you have sharper teeth (some normal humans can also have slightly prolonged canines without being vampires) and live longer? Also, maybe sleeping in coffins has something to do with a sentimental streak? The sarcophagii are what they were made in - the place of their rebirth from mutated, malformed wrecks into something greater, something radiant, powerful and beautiful. Why not remember and honor their rebirth in this way? Quirky, yes, but there are more bizarre things out there even in this day and age. It does not detract from their appeal, since they already are inhuman. They are, as someone already said, always striving to better themselves to keep from falling to the Black Rage. Which could hit anyone, even someone like Dante. So, does it really matter if they have vampiric tendencies? Nah, not to me. Vampires or not, they're awesome ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkio Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 [do the twilight 'vampires' put themselves into a position where they are almost constantly surrounded by blood, and put themselves in a position where the chance is there, but they don't take it? Yes. Everytime they go to the high school in which there "parents" have enrolled them, or the "father" who works at the local hospital. is that "almost constantly surrounded by blood" enough for you? Arkio - are you sure about those 2nd ed rules? Because it doesnt say that in my AoD codex. If you're going to type things on the internet, please have the good courtesy of being right, rather than being slapdash and playing chinese whispers with background and rules. Sorry if this comes across as snarky, but if you were writing for a tabloid, even the Daily Star editor would have thrown it back at you for failiure to check your facts. seems you have checked my facts and verified them for me. i am sorry that my passing of information was from a second hand source and without possessing said codex i am unable to make said verifications. however. the fact that you have found the following passage from mephy's rules does prove that i am at least partially correct and not writing tabloid-esque falsities. and chinese whispers? how can you even call my post that? slapdash? thats kinda funny/offensive. I provided information that to my knowledge was correct as i recevied it from a fellow BA player who started his army in late '85 i'm sorry i took the word of a fellow angel as canon and passed it on to a thread that was discussing the vampiric tendancies of our chapter. Ref: Drinking blood and TT rules in 2nd ed -The only person this applies to is Mephiston. The rule (pg 94, col 2, para 2 and 3) says that if he kills an opponent in H-t-H combat there is a chance that the Red Thirst will overpower his iron will and he will lose control of himself. If he then failed a Ld test then he would have to stop and stay in that spot, drinking the blood of his enemies, until he successfully passes a Ld test at the start of one of his future turns. If the enemy is foolish to charge him during this time, then he will be subject to the rules for "Frenzy", as described in the 40k rulebook. At the time Frenzy (40k rulebook, pg 67, col 1, para 2-9) rules included double base attacks in H-t-H, must charge the enemy if able to do so, immune to all other psychology, cannot use swords to parry and must use follow-up moves to attempt to engame more enmies in H-t-H. Am I being a pedantic so-and-so? Probably yes. Do i want to see another discussion go down the plughole like a bad game of chinese whispers? No. Will I some day learn to not bother to reply to threads like this? I hope not, because that'll be when BA's no longer interest me... so this section of your post here kinda proves me right does it not? is mephy a blood angel? yes. does mephy drink blood? yes. can you use that "proof" if you will that SOME blood angels at any given time will fall to an urge and drink blood ala vampires? yes. k? thx. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
igotsmeakabob!! Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 To be fair, the blood drinking thing isn't a recent discovery found in the 2nd edition codex.. it's what the Red Thirst is. Mephy had a similar rule in 3rd edition, and the Red Thirst has been alongside the Black Rage in every codex we've had.. including our :cussty 4.5 PDF. It's true that blood drinking if part of the definition of a vampire, and it's true that classically vampires are well-defined good-looking men. Both are true of Blood Angels. Red thirst and they all have good facial structure. That doesn't make them vampires, but it does mean that they have some characteristics in common with vampires. Space Wolves fight in packs, have large canines, and have Wolves in their name. They share some characteristics with wolves. Iron Hands have iron hands. Not all of them, and I don't think they use iron.. but they do love their cybernetics. Metal parts. Machine-ey. Yup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkio Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 kabob. thank you, you summed up my thoughts in a manner i was unable to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Messanger of Death Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 Reading through this thread I didn't come across any serious statement that Blood Angels ARE vampires. I did come across alot of facts that reinforce my opinion that Blood Angels have a vampire theme. So I am not sure who is actually saying Blood Angels are vampires and why there are people that feel the need to argue they aren't. If you want to argue there is no vampire theme then that is a totally different thing entirely. And those who feel that the theme doesn't exist and that Blood Angels don't have fangs... I suggest you prepare yourselves for the new codex as it will more then likely have lots of images and background information that will make the vampire theme far more obvious. Messanger Edit - the Renaissance lasted from the 12th to 17th Century. During the 17th Century there was the beginning of The Enlightenment (some Scholars argue that it didn't start till the 18th Century). Something that came about during The Enlightenment was the increased discussion of Vampires within Western Society. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spagunk Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 so this section of your post here kinda proves me right does it not? is mephy a blood angel? yes. does mephy drink blood? yes. can you use that "proof" if you will that SOME blood angels at any given time will fall to an urge and drink blood ala vampires? yes. k? thx. Again, you are using one example as the basis of your argument that encompass all. It is anecdotal at worse and unfortunate at best. Mephy is an exception. He beat the black rage but then inherited other peculiarities. Mephy would be Vlad the impaler to the Romanian militia army: I.E. he is an exception. This is definitely another "Squares and rectangles" type scenario. The only known traits among the BA army as a whole is a tendency to have fits of rage, tendency to appreciate the finer things in life, a fascination with blood and some abhorrent sleeping and eating behavior. Point of the matter is, BA are not vampires. They have vampire analogous similarities but certainly not "Vampires in Space suits" as some put it. Closest thing we have to that is possibly the blood drinkers or the flesh tearers. Besides, I happen to believe Dante does not partake of the red stuff...he's partial to Dos Equis! http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j165/spagunk/dosequis.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkio Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 again everyone is misunderstanding and misquoting what i have written no where do i say they are actually VAMPIRES but i am providing evidence of the THEME in the army is not just a glossing over. but deep in the core of the chapter exists the THEME of the vampire archetype Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 again everyone is misunderstanding and misquoting what i have written no where do i say they are actually VAMPIRES but i am providing evidence of the THEME in the army is not just a glossing over. but deep in the core of the chapter exists the THEME of the vampire archetype Indeed, if SW can be described as viking werewolves in space *and trust me, they can be* then BA can be described as Vampiric Rennaisance Men in space. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seva Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 I think of my Blood Angels as Romans cause Romans are cool. If I wanted to play space vampires I would go play dark eldar, but that's just me. Be vampires if you want, I'm fine with that, just don't paint us all with that wide brush. I also think the fang thing is more artistic license, I'm fine with that as well. I'll just file those little fangs off and none will be the wiser. Even if the new codex, if it ever comes out, says they are vampires I will still resist it. I'm just a rebel that way. I think the thing we need to take from this thread aside from the fact that we all think differently about our beloved chapter is that it is ours to do with as we like. GW leaves enough ambiguity about the chapter that it can be different things to different people. I abhor the vampiric theme and will not use it to represent my little red marines. Others love it and will play it up to the hilt. We are both right. Good luck brothers. Obey the Emperor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inquisitor_Lensoven Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 [do the twilight 'vampires' put themselves into a position where they are almost constantly surrounded by blood, and put themselves in a position where the chance is there, but they don't take it? Yes. Everytime they go to the high school in which there "parents" have enrolled them, or the "father" who works at the local hospital. is that "almost constantly surrounded by blood" enough for you? Arkio - are you sure about those 2nd ed rules? Because it doesnt say that in my AoD codex. If you're going to type things on the internet, please have the good courtesy of being right, rather than being slapdash and playing chinese whispers with background and rules. Sorry if this comes across as snarky, but if you were writing for a tabloid, even the Daily Star editor would have thrown it back at you for failiure to check your facts. seems you have checked my facts and verified them for me. i am sorry that my passing of information was from a second hand source and without possessing said codex i am unable to make said verifications. however. the fact that you have found the following passage from mephy's rules does prove that i am at least partially correct and not writing tabloid-esque falsities. and chinese whispers? how can you even call my post that? slapdash? thats kinda funny/offensive. I provided information that to my knowledge was correct as i recevied it from a fellow BA player who started his army in late '85 i'm sorry i took the word of a fellow angel as canon and passed it on to a thread that was discussing the vampiric tendancies of our chapter. Ref: Drinking blood and TT rules in 2nd ed -The only person this applies to is Mephiston. The rule (pg 94, col 2, para 2 and 3) says that if he kills an opponent in H-t-H combat there is a chance that the Red Thirst will overpower his iron will and he will lose control of himself. If he then failed a Ld test then he would have to stop and stay in that spot, drinking the blood of his enemies, until he successfully passes a Ld test at the start of one of his future turns. If the enemy is foolish to charge him during this time, then he will be subject to the rules for "Frenzy", as described in the 40k rulebook. At the time Frenzy (40k rulebook, pg 67, col 1, para 2-9) rules included double base attacks in H-t-H, must charge the enemy if able to do so, immune to all other psychology, cannot use swords to parry and must use follow-up moves to attempt to engame more enmies in H-t-H. Am I being a pedantic so-and-so? Probably yes. Do i want to see another discussion go down the plughole like a bad game of chinese whispers? No. Will I some day learn to not bother to reply to threads like this? I hope not, because that'll be when BA's no longer interest me... so this section of your post here kinda proves me right does it not? is mephy a blood angel? yes. does mephy drink blood? yes. can you use that "proof" if you will that SOME blood angels at any given time will fall to an urge and drink blood ala vampires? yes. k? thx. no, am i fighting a heroic inner battle just because i have the opportunity to shoot a deer or turkey every time one wanders into my yard? just because the source is there doesn't mean that they're putting themselves in a position to exploit that source. they're trying to keep the fact they're 'vampires' a secret, and sucking the blood out of a student in the middle of the hallway during passing period might just blow that secret. them not drinking human blood when in public is a matter of survival. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inquisitor_Lensoven Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 I think of my Blood Angels as Romans cause Romans are cool. If I wanted to play space vampires I would go play dark eldar, but that's just me. Be vampires if you want, I'm fine with that, just don't paint us all with that wide brush. I also think the fang thing is more artistic license, I'm fine with that as well. I'll just file those little fangs off and none will be the wiser. Even if the new codex, if it ever comes out, says they are vampires I will still resist it. I'm just a rebel that way. I think the thing we need to take from this thread aside from the fact that we all think differently about our beloved chapter is that it is ours to do with as we like. GW leaves enough ambiguity about the chapter that it can be different things to different people. I abhor the vampiric theme and will not use it to represent my little red marines. Others love it and will play it up to the hilt. We are both right. Good luck brothers. Obey the Emperor. then why not be sons of orar? red ultrasmurfs if you want another roman based chapter. no, i'm not trying to be mean, i'm serious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hrvat Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 Edit - the Renaissance lasted from the 12th to 17th Century. During the 17th Century there was the beginning of The Enlightenment (some Scholars argue that it didn't start till the 18th Century). Something that came about during The Enlightenment was the increased discussion of Vampires within Western Society. Just a heads up, you should not mix "the Renaissance" of 14-16th century with the Renaissance of the 12th century, these are two very different thigns. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Messanger of Death Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 Didn't mean to tread on historical toes (so to speak) but was implying that the Renaissance of the 12 century related to things like the Italian Renaissance of the 15 century and the Scientific revolution of the 17th century. At least to me it is important as the Renaissance of the 12th century can be related to both The Enlightenment and the development of the Gothic genre. A basic understanding of all of these periods (12th century - 17th century and 19th - 20th century) can help understand the background of Blood Angels. For example a basic understanding of the Gothic genre will give a context for when it was developed and how it has progressed. Gothic genre developed from Horace Walpole's The Castle of Otranto too Mary Shelley's Frankenstein and Bram Stroke's Dracula. And then to see how it has further developed itself in games, movies and TV series. Countless other novels, games and movies have all impacted on the Vampire Legend which have as a result impacted on the vampire theme within the Blood Angels. We have vampires who can handle sun light, who burn under sunlight and even sparkle under sun light. There are vampires who need to drink blood to survive while there are vampires who need to survive off human life. There are vampires who are beautiful while there are vampires who are ugly and deformed. There are vampires with fangs while there are vampires with sharp teeth. Within Western society there are countless images of what a vampire is and as such we have the option to draw from any number of these images. Simply put if your going to argue if there is or isn't a vampire theme within the Blood Angels you need to decide what image of a vampire you are going to take. Some examples of different images... Count Dracula... Lestat de Lioncourt... Vincente... the Wraith... Selene... Blade... Cullens... Messanger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guerra Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 Everyone seems to be forgetting that little passage from AoD that mentions strange disapearances among the populace in areas where the BA are deployed... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
igotsmeakabob!! Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 Fear and superstition! There are always disappearances in the 40k GRIMDARK, it just isn't reported until Blood Angels are around! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spagunk Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 Everyone seems to be forgetting that little passage from AoD that mentions strange disapearances among the populace in areas where the BA are deployed... BLASPHEMY! Surely these are the lies of Chaos being manifested! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonaides Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 And then people forget the next bit where it suggests 3 possible options for why this happens, and seem to go straight to - "these folks have been killed by BA's overcome by the Red Thirst." Either of the other two options is at least as possible as the third, ye thow many times do you see threads devoted to how cultists continually try to defame the BA's? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demoulius Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 this topic is still around? i ran out faster then a fatt broke man trying to ditch a bill when the twilight movies were mentioned :lol: anyway, who says they need to portray the blood angels as pre-made vampire portrayals? as i understand it the word vampire simply related to the fact that a person or creature drinks blood for nourishment. as far as i can recall the blood angels dont sit around the dinner table with their glasses filled with blood :( they may wolf down bits and pieces of their opponents in sheer bloodlust though ;) they may drink abit here and there but to say they need it would be a lie. battlelust in itself isent a bad thing. an astartes' pair of teeth might just as easily kill an chaos marine as his hands could if he had bitten the CSM in his throat for instance. the thing that sparks rumors however is that the BA's supposedly attacked civiliains. for example during Armageddon an SoB Cannones (IIRC?) reported an blood angel succesor, i think the flesh tearers, of first crushing the orks in an big melee after which they attacked the guardsmen they had just liberated, unable to distinguish friend from foe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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