To Vamp or not to Vamp?

[Arkio]

I can not find my old supplemental 'dex but IIRC there has been inquisitorial "reports" in codex's about settlements near where the BA have a garrison for whatever reason citizens have been discovered with all their blood drained from their bodies. that ensanguination brings to question the thirst and was what created the stion.link between vampirisim and the BA. bo i play up the vampiric nature of my army? no. do i appriciate the effort made to make it a subtle portion of my armies fluff? heck yea

[Lestat]

Count me as one who does NOT play up the whole vampire thing. When I started collecting these guys long ago they were hand to hand guys with lots of shiny jetpacks (that's what I thought the jump packs were) chainswords and most importantly they were RED. I step out for about 15 years and now there is a debate as to weather or not they are space vampires. It's like having the rug pulled out from under me. I don't mind the vampire, Dracula is cool, those guys from near dark were cool, the movie "The Lost Boys" was...where it started to go down hill to the whole "Twilight" vampire thing. It's just not my thing, I don't like fangs with lace and sensitive forlorn looks. I like red marines with guns and swords. Thats just me though. If you want to say YOUR guys are vampires go right ahead, I will always say MY guys aren't. I don't think it's something the chapter needs to make it cool. 7' tall superhumans who kill remorselessly for some dead guy in a gold throne is plenty cool enough for me.

 

Obey the Emperor.

 

Well, are not ALL chapters made up of 7' tall superhumans who kill remorselessly for some dead guy in a gold throne? I mean, if you look at it like that then the only difference is the colour of their armour.

As I am sure I have mentioned previously, I have been playing and collecting Blood Angels since way back in 2nd edition. There were more than a few subtle references to the vampiristic nature in the fluff way back then and in the fluff since.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I definitely see BA as a vampiric race. Sacrophagus, Red Thirst, feeding tubes for Moriar, etc. It's all right there in the background. One of the new SH terminators was modeled with fangs. If you don't like it you can just ignore it. It's not a big deal.

 

0b :D

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

ok, to those who are saying they don't see the vampire thing, or are trying to shrug the theme off, Mephiston is a vampire! in AoD he had a rule where he had to role a leadership test to see if he would feed on the blood of his victims or not. they also don't just ingest blood in any way other than drinking it during the initiation rituals, theres even a pic in AoD codex of corbulo holding the grail, and having blood running down his chin.

 

btw, i'm not saying they're all totally vampire, but the Rage and Mephiston were thrown in the mix to give that feeling, just like dante and his inferno pistol are there to give an italian presence, and sanguinius' wings and the chapter name give it an angelic feel. (thought the angelic thing cannot be denied) it's all about how you play, and how you model, and how you like it. you can ignore the vampiric side of the fluff as much as you can ignore the italian renisciannce or the angelic theme, but i think only by embracing all three with the same amount of emphasis can you have fluff accurate BA force.

 

...and then theres the successors and DIY that complicate things more. FT seem pretty dark and vampiric to me, but hey thats just my opinion.

 

just like i made a thread a month or so ago to see what others thought of how prevalent the italian theme is in them, some people supported my thoughts on it, some screamed the complete opposite. i bet some where, there's a BA player who will argue that just because Sanguinius had wing, that they aren't angel themed...which i guess you could say...(they're not angel wings, they're pigeon wings! <_< )

 

so in the end, its how you want your marines to be.

[Leonaides]

Balls - just lost a nice long reply that I really cannot be bothered with.

 

Suffice to say, that this thread shows an imminient danger of decending into a big vampire-love in, and if it does, I'm outa here.

 

It is your right to say that you believe that BA's are vampires, jsut as it is my right to say that they arent. It is not your right to say that I am wrong in saying that they arent vampires, not is it your right to say that I'm just not reading the background, or not reading between the lines enough. I could equally say htat you're reading too much between the lines.

 

Evidence for other chapters eating human flesh/using blood in rituals:

"Space marine" - concerning IF's

ventris novel on tarsis ultra - Mortifactors

 

Evidence that BA's may NOT be responsible for civilians turning up drained of blood:

A short story in an anthology book (cannot remember the title) about a Doom Eagle detachment relieveing a Fleshtearer detachment on a planet. Missing people turing up dead, yadayadayada - end result is cultist in a mockup of powr armour using a couple of metal straws (i kid you not).

Also - dont you think the Inquisition might have lood rather hard after the 4th or 5th accusation? And still no proof? Seeing a picture at all?

 

Stuck between real and psuedo-vampirism? if you say so, but mine arent. Not at all.

[Fire Lord Captain]

How can anyone actually argue that the BA are not Vampires with all the imagery and characters? To me they are the classic Anne Rice Vampire. Plus I think its cool to have vampires iiinn spaaaaaace. They are not Vampire counts, but definately Vampires of some desription.

[Frostbit3]

Looks like a duck. Smells like a duck. Talks like a duck.

 

I don't see why people would get upset that they are vampiric. The signs are all there. I'm not goth, I've never read any vampire books. Twilight doesn't make me tingle, nor does it make me rage.

 

I wouldn't care if they weren't vampires. But I sure don't get upset that they are. The bloodthirsty nature is what drew me to the flesh tearers. Losing control in battle at the scent of blood makes me smile. I'd be more upset if I was just playing sissy renaissance Italians.

[daboarder]

i love how everyone uses mephiston to justify all BA yet forgets about all the other special characters. i mean come on! sure he a vamp but it doesn't mean they all are, is tycho a vamp? no. how about lemartes? no hells dante is a god damned ANGEL! grow up people its not on or the other its alot of things and vampires aren't the most obvious part of our background by far.

 

/rant

[Askari]

Blood Angels have renaissance and vampiric traits just like space wolves have viking and werewolf traits. Space wolves aren't were wolves in space or vikings in space, they're marines that have characteristics of werewolves and vikings. Blood Angels have vampiric traits but to call them flat out vampires is crazy. Space marines practice a lot of cannibalistic and occult rituals, Blood Angels are one of the more extreme examples. Beyond the few character quirks Blood Angels can't be called vampires.

 

Although most 40k races were fantasy inspired, few of them have any more than a cursory resemblance to their fantasy counter parts. Chaos warriors operate very different;y from chaos space marines. Eldar and elves are radically different, they have pointy ears and are good at magic but the plight and philosophy of the Eldar is very different from that of the high elves and the same goes for their Dark kin.

 

I've got no problem with having vampiric allusions but making them vampires in space would be a dumb idea. Their vampiric tendencies are simply a radical divergence from the codex; it doesn't mean they're vampire counts.

[traitor_dice]

"flat out saying "BA ARE NOT VAMPIRES NOOB!!!!11!!1" is just stupid.

 

 

No, it isn't. The BA are not vampires. End of Story. prove it.

 

They are genetically enhanced super soldiers who, because of the death of their primarch and the way new space marines are made, have a tendency to break with reality, believe they are the primarch and experience an uncontrollable lust for killing. If their primarch hadn't been at that battle on earth and hadn't died to protect the emperor, they wouldn't have that problem. They'd be like the Salamanders, or Wolves pining for the return of their long lost daddy. doesnt this almost define them as vampires by some standards?

 

either way, no one save for GW can say that BA are not vampires for certain, and i doubt they will, because guess why the majority of BA players play them......

 

Complete supposition on your part based entirely on your own preferences. I haven't seen any posts here, probably the premier BA discussion place on the web, hinting that people play BA because they're vampire-like until yours. now, that just shows that you haven't seen many posts on the web. quite a few people do play them for this aspect, i know this to be true because i know a few of them. what im trying to say is, a large amount of BA players, or at least the ones iv met in my area, play them. for this aspect

 

for the record, i dont play BA, and im not against the idea of them not being vampires. what I am against is people like this who try and assume they know GW's intent on the matter. I'm not necessarily saying they definitely are, but I'm trying to get across that its entirely possible.

[Lestat]

How can anyone actually argue that the BA are not Vampires with all the imagery and characters? To me they are the classic Anne Rice Vampire. Plus I think its cool to have vampires iiinn spaaaaaace. They are not Vampire counts, but definately Vampires of some desription.

 

Doesn't the Anne Rice style of vampire also have renaissance influences? To me that is where the Italian/renaissance flavour of the Blood Angels originates from.

 

i love how everyone uses mephiston to justify all BA yet forgets about all the other special characters. i mean come on! sure he a vamp but it doesn't mean they all are, is tycho a vamp? no. how about lemartes? no hells dante is a god damned ANGEL! grow up people its not on or the other its alot of things and vampires aren't the most obvious part of our background by far.

 

/rant

 

Did not Tycho fall at some point to the Rage and the Thirst? He is often depicted as a member of the Death Company in black armour and bloody saltires. You also seem to be missing the fact that only a small proportion of the Blood Angels display any vampiric tendancies - but they all have the potential to turn to those tendancies.

 

Blood Angels have renaissance and vampiric traits just like space wolves have viking and werewolf traits. Space wolves aren't were wolves in space or vikings in space, they're marines that have characteristics of werewolves and vikings. Blood Angels have vampiric traits but to call them flat out vampires is crazy. Space marines practice a lot of cannibalistic and occult rituals, Blood Angels are one of the more extreme examples. Beyond the few character quirks Blood Angels can't be called vampires.

 

Although most 40k races were fantasy inspired, few of them have any more than a cursory resemblance to their fantasy counter parts. Chaos warriors operate very different;y from chaos space marines. Eldar and elves are radically different, they have pointy ears and are good at magic but the plight and philosophy of the Eldar is very different from that of the high elves and the same goes for their Dark kin.

 

I've got no problem with having vampiric allusions but making them vampires in space would be a dumb idea. Their vampiric tendencies are simply a radical divergence from the codex; it doesn't mean they're vampire counts.

 

I don't believe that anyone has suggested that the Blood Angels are a 40k stand-in for Vampire Counts (after all, where would we get the Ghouls from? ;) ) The hints and the signs are there in the fluff. Blood Angels and their successors are all prone to certain vampiric traits.

 

 

Although this has turned into a great discussion as to whether the Blood Angels are vampires or not, I think the majority of people are missing the original point I was making.

Why do so many people dislike the fact the GW, and players for that matter, like to portray the vampiric side of the Blood Angels? As I have said time and again, the evidence is in the fluff. Why are certain players so against others using that fluff as a source of inspiration when painting and converting their army.

I, for one, am guilty of using a certain fanged Khorne Berzerker head at times. I am also looking at the new Space Wolves sprues to see if there are any usable fanged heads there. But on the flipside, my characters do tend to represent the renaissance influences in the Blood Angels. There is much more ornate armour and lots of gold - which I do not use on the rank and file models.

 

Please, please, please keep in mind the original point I was making and please keep it civil.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

i love how everyone uses mephiston to justify all BA yet forgets about all the other special characters. i mean come on! sure he a vamp but it doesn't mean they all are, is tycho a vamp? no. how about lemartes? no hells dante is a god damned ANGEL! grow up people its not on or the other its alot of things and vampires aren't the most obvious part of our background by far.

 

/rant

how is dante an angel? and who is saying that all BA are vampires? it's simply saying that he represents the vampiric side of the chapter, i believe each character is supposed to represent one of the chapter's influences/different sides.

 

dante-italian rennesiance

lemartese/tycho/moriar-DC

corbulo-the nobility of the chapter

sanguinius-the angelic side

mephiston- the vampiric side

 

now, depending on how you paint and model your army, and how you write your fluff, that list will vary, but i think that is pretty accurate portrayal of the characters.

 

edit

as to the original topic and question, i'm pretty sure it's rather obvious....it's because we think differently than they do, just like you will probably find some players who get mad at other players that don't portray anything vampiric in their army.

for the same reason christians (don't want to start a religious debate or anything) have to have 100 different sects of the religion, because no one interprets anything the same, so groups w/ similar interpretations are formed and one group will eventually get mad at the other.

[daboarder]

just making it clear that i personally stand in the middle ground i believe the blood angel fluff is great without the need to emphasise one part over the other and i do recognise that they have some vampiric traits. for example i love the SH termie with the fangs thats BRILLIANT!

 

but to answer some of the above questions and comments.

 

tycho: yes he did fall to the rage at armeggedon but the rage is a different aspect of the curse than the red thirst. also his name is taken from a renaisance scientist tycho brahe. and to top it off he has what is dubbed renaisance armour. not what was actually used at the time but the artistic impressions of warriors they were found of at the time included styilised armour.

 

as for dante i stated he was angelic largely because of his age hinting at a form of immortality (ok could be vampiric ill pay that but also angelic) and his armour is extremely stylised in the manner of renaisance depictions of armoured angels at the time. plus his jump pack is pretty much a sci-fi stand in for wings.

 

oh and good point about not getting worked up by it we should all pay attention to that.

[JamesI]

just making it clear that i personally stand in the middle ground i believe the blood angel fluff is great without the need to emphasise one part over the other and i do recognise that they have some vampiric traits. for example i love the SH termie with the fangs thats BRILLIANT!

 

I agree. I like the Vampiric side of the BA, but I also want to avoid being full vampires. Let the full vampires be a successor chapter to the BA if people really want emphasis on that aspect.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Does anyone here remember the awesome looking Flesheaters army?

 

0b :P

[Brother Tyler]

This is actually a pretty complex issue, and where one sits often depends on one's interpretations. Speaking as one who is actually opposed to the idea of the Blood Angels being vampires, I think it's safe to say that while the Blood Angels aren't vampires in the same fashion as Dracula or Carmilla, there are definitely some strong vampiric influences on the Chapter.

Are they undead? Not in the sense that we think of that term. However, they are symbolically similar. In their previous lives they were the misshapen inhabitants of radioactive Baal. They are then taken from their homeworld by the Blood Angels and are placed into a coffin-like chamber for an extended period of time (I'll break out Codex: Angels of Death if anyone needs me to cite the actual name and period of time). At the end of that period of time, they are released and those that survive emerge transformed into the perfect Blood Angels Astartes. In a sense, they've died and been reborn. There are other parallels to this transformation, including the notion of spiritual ascendance such as might be practiced in esoteric organizations, well-known mythological/religious parallels that we don't need to go into, etc. However, the notion of dying and being "reborn", albeit as the undead, is also central to many vampiric traditions.

Do the Blood Angels "drink blood"? Possibly. Carnivorous and blood drinking practices aren't exactly uncommon within the Astartes, though the Successors of Sanguinius all appear to follow these practices, and to an extreme that goes beyond the majority of other Chapters. Other than a few exceptional characters, though, the Blood Angels don't "drink blood" in the sense associated with "modern" vampires. Rather, there is the practice of transmitting the blood of Sanguinius via the Sanguinary Priests, being passed down through the generations and extending to the other battle-brothers. This is ritual blood drinking, however, and is not done in the manner of "feeding" (what would be associated with the common perception of vampires). The Blood Angels aren't known to drink the blood of their enemies to sate their hunger/thirst. All that said, there is definitely a prevalent focus on blood. The Blood Drinkers are also known to practice the drinking of blood, as cited in Space Marine by Ian Watson. However, when the Blood Drinkers Captain was offered the blood of the Imperial Fists, he rebuffed the offer and seemed slightly indignant, replying something to the effect that he would not drink the blood of someone who was not his battle-brother. One might argue that this is different from the Blood Angels, but it's worth noting if for no other reason than to emphasize the argument that any notion of feeding on blood within the Successors of Sanguinius isn't in the same manner that we commonly associate with the modern notion of vampires.

Some elements of vampire lore are obviously not part of the Chapter. This is actually one of the best things about the whole issue as it gives the Chapter a complexity that it wouldn't have if it were simply a science-fantasy translation of Stoker's doomed villain. Turning into bats/wolves/mist is clearly out of the picture, as is aversion to sunlight, holy water and other holy symbols, garlic, mirrors, etc. To be honest, if that kind of stuff were written into the Chapter's background, we'd be in a worse predicament than we are in now.

There are other vampiric traditions, of course. In modern literature, the Twilight novels (which I have never read and I'll never read) and the Anne Rice novels are the most popular. I actually prefer the novels about Saint Germain and Olivia Clemens. There are many others, going back to Stoker's seminal novel. And of course there are the Vampire games from White Wolf. I got into Warhammer 40,000 back in 1987, and was also very much into vampire novels at that time. I was focused on the Lestat books, but read a host of others during that time (Fevre Dream stands out, and there was also one set in India, though I've long since forgotten the name of that book). Over time, I've reacted to the popularity of vampires in one of the two normal ways - I'm now somewhat averse to them. It's not that I don't like vampires. Rather, they're too chic for me now, and I view them as being way too popular. I suspect that others that are averse to vampires, especially with relation to the Blood Angels, are somewhat similar in their outlook. Perhaps for different reasons, but similar nonetheless.

I don't think that the influences of vampire lore on the Blood Angels can be denied, though.

To me, it's unfortunate that the influences are so overt, though. The fact that some consider them to be vampires is indicative of the influences being over-wrought. The same thing was done to the Space Wolves with the combination of Vikings and werewolves, despite the existence of other influences. These two Chapters are perfect examples of the "problem" (to me, anyways) of over-theming a Chapter, made infinitely worse by the fact that they're official Chapters and the over-theming was done by Games Workshop. To simplify the Blood Angels as "Space Vampires" (or any variation of that) is to do a great injustice to the Chapter and its Successors. As has been said by others before, there is a depth and complexity to the Chapter that transcends the vulgar concept of them being simple vampires.

Both camps, I think, need to accept the complexities, including the valid points on the other side. Don't deny for a minute that there are vampiric influences, but don't make the mistake of thinking that those influences are more significant than they really are. Appreciate the Chapter for the whole of its character. Ultimately, each player is free to focus on whatever aspects they find most appealing, and it's only human nature to minimize those aspects that one finds unappealing. But it must be understood that the choices each individual player makes don't render the other aspects invalid.

For what it's worth, though, I'm filing Lorenzo's fangs down. I think that little bit of sculpting was a bad move and only served to enhance something that should have been left subtle. Like I said, my bias is in the anti-vampire camp.

[Brother Tyler]

Does anyone here remember the awesome looking Flesheaters army?

You're speaking of Chaplain Desmodus' Flesh Eaters, correct? That was a fantastic take on the vampiric theme, applied to a Successor.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

just making it clear that i personally stand in the middle ground i believe the blood angel fluff is great without the need to emphasise one part over the other and i do recognise that they have some vampiric traits. for example i love the SH termie with the fangs thats BRILLIANT!

 

but to answer some of the above questions and comments.

 

tycho: yes he did fall to the rage at armeggedon but the rage is a different aspect of the curse than the red thirst. also his name is taken from a renaisance scientist tycho brahe. and to top it off he has what is dubbed renaisance armour. not what was actually used at the time but the artistic impressions of warriors they were found of at the time included styilised armour.

 

as for dante i stated he was angelic largely because of his age hinting at a form of immortality (ok could be vampiric ill pay that but also angelic) and his armour is extremely stylised in the manner of renaisance depictions of armoured angels at the time. plus his jump pack is pretty much a sci-fi stand in for wings.

 

oh and good point about not getting worked up by it we should all pay attention to that.

still not buying the dante=angelic thing, as was proven, if they really wanted him to be angelic they'd just give him wings instead of a jump pack.

[daboarder]

the glowing halo didn't seal the deal for you then? remember this is a sci fi game where mutations are heresy so wings no. high tech equivalent, why not?

there is as much reason to suggest dante is an angelic image as there is to suggest mephiston is a vampire.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Does anyone here remember the awesome looking Flesheaters army?

You're speaking of Chaplain Desmodus' Flesh Eaters, correct? That was a fantastic take on the vampiric theme, applied to a Successor.

 

That's the one! I also seem to remember another Flesheaters army that used the previous codex rules for Deathwing to count as their 1st company.

 

0b

[Brother Tyler]

I'm with daboarder on this. Dante's imagery draws upon angelic influences as much as the Blood Angels background draws upon vampires. It's a little more subtle and, as a result, better. Giving Dante wings would have been a stupid move on the part of GW. It was rationalized to the satisfaction of most with Sanguinius, but doing it with a regular Space Marine (insofar as a Chapter Master might be called "regular") would have been an egregious error. The Dark Angels incorporate their own angelic influences. Different, but neither worse nor better than the Blood Angels' own angelic influences. The Blood Angels' angelic influences tend to draw upon Renaissance imagery combined with Roman influence while the Dark Angels draw upon apocryphal influences, as well as Revelations.

 

Consider the reaction of Blood Angels players to the Deus novels and you'll realize why Dante's angelic influences are better done in their current context rather than in a more overt fashion.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

of course he shows a clear angelic influence, but i wouldn't say his rules or fluff have ever shown any extra angelic influence.

 

Mephiston actually had a rule that he would drink blood after CC if he failed a LD role, but the iron halo thing and a jump pack can be given to any ol' marine captain, so i don't really see the extra angelness.

 

and i think most of the reason the deus novels were received so poorly, is because how gullible and stupid they make the BA look, not because of arkio's wings.

[Angelus Mortifer]

This is actually a pretty complex issue, and where one sits often depends on one's interpretations. Speaking as one who is actually opposed to the idea of the Blood Angels being vampires, I think it's safe to say that while the Blood Angels aren't vampires in the same fashion as Dracula or Carmilla, there are definitely some strong vampiric influences on the Chapter.

Are they undead? Not in the sense that we think of that term. However, theirs is symbolically similar. In their previous lives they were the misshapen inhabitants of radioactive Baal. They are then taken from their homeworld by the Blood Angels and are placed into a coffin-like chamber for an extended period of time (I'll break out Codex: Angels of Death if anyone needs me to cite the actual name and period of time). At the end of that period of time, they are released and those that survive emerge transformed into the perfect Blood Angels Astartes. In a sense, they've died and been reborn. There are other parallels to this transformation, including the notion of spiritual ascendance such as might be practiced in esoteric organizations, well-known mythological/religious parallels that we don't need to go into, etc. However, the notion of dying and being "reborn", albeit as the undead, is also central to many vampiric traditions.

Do the Blood Angels "drink blood"? Possibly. Carnivorous and blood drinking practices aren't exactly uncommon within the Astartes, though the Successors of Sanguinius all appear to follow these practices, and to an extreme that goes beyond the majority of other Chapters. Other than a few exceptional characters, though, the Blood Angels don't "drink blood" in the sense associated with "modern" vampires. Rather, there is the practice of transmitting the blood of Sanguinius via the Sanguinary Priests, being passed down through the generations and extending to the other battle-brothers. This is ritual blood drinking, however, and is not done in the manner of "feeding" (what would be associated with the common perception of vampires). The Blood Angels aren't known to drink the blood of their enemies to sate their hunger/thirst. All that said, there is definitely a prevalent focus on blood. The Blood Drinkers are also known to practice the drinking of blood, as cited in Space Marine by Ian Watson. However, when the Blood Drinkers Captain was offered the blood of the Imperial Fists, he rebuffed the offer and seemed slightly indignant, replying something to the effect that he would not drink the blood of someone who was not his battle-brother. One might argue that this is different from the Blood Angels, but it's worth noting if for no other reason than to emphasize the argument that any notion of feeding on blood within the Successors of Sanguinius isn't in the same manner that we commonly associate with the modern notion of vampires.

Some elements of vampire lore are obviously not part of the Chapter. This is actually one of the best things about the whole issue as it gives the Chapter a complexity that it wouldn't have if it were simply a science-fantasy translation of Stoker's doomed villain. Turning into bats/wolves/mist is clearly out of the picture, as is aversion to sunlight, holy water and other holy symbols, garlic, mirrors, etc. To be honest, if that kind of stuff were written into the Chapter's background, we'd be in a worse predicament than we are in now.

There are other vampiric traditions, of course. In modern literature, the Twilight novels (which I have never read and I'll never read) and the Anne Rice novels are the most popular. I actually prefer the novels about Saint Germain and Olivia Clemens. There are many others, going back to Stoker's seminal novel. And of course there are the Vampire games from White Wolf. I got into Warhammer 40,000 back in 1987, and was also very much into vampire novels at that time. I was focused on the Lestat books, but read a host of others during that time (Fevre Dream stands out, and there was also one set in India, though I've long since forgotten the name of that book). Over time, I've reacted to the popularity of vampires in one of the two normal ways - I'm now somewhat averse to them. It's not that I don't like vampires. Rather, they're too chic for me now, and I view them as being way too popular. I suspect that others that are averse to vampires, especially with relation to the Blood Angels, are somewhat similar in their outlook. Perhaps for different reasons, but similar nonetheless.

I don't think that the influences of vampire lore on the Blood Angels can be denied, though.

To me, it's unfortunate that the influences are so overt, though. The fact that some consider them to be vampires is indicative of the influences being over-wrought. The same thing was done to the Space Wolves with the combination of Vikings and werewolves, despite the existence of other influences. These two Chapters are perfect examples of the "problem" (to me, anyways) of over-theming a Chapter, made infinitely worse by the fact that they're official Chapters and the over-theming was done by Games Workshop. To simplify the Blood Angels as "Space Vampires" (or any variation of that) is to do a great injustice to the Chapter and its Successors. As has been said by others before, there is a depth and complexity to the Chapter that transcends the vulgar concept of them being simple vampires.

Both camps, I think, need to accept the complexities, including the valid points on the other side. Don't deny for a minute that there are vampiric influences, but don't make the mistake of thinking that those influences are more significant than they really are. Appreciate the Chapter for the whole of its character. Ultimately, each player is free to focus on whatever aspects they find most appealing, and it's only human nature to minimize those aspects that one finds unappealing. But it must be understood that the choices each individual player makes don't render the other aspects invalid.

For what it's worth, though, I'm filing Lorenzo's fangs down. I think that little bit of sculpting was a bad move and only served to enhance something that should have been left subtle. Like I said, my bias is in the anti-vampire camp.

Perfect response in view if what I too feel, apart from the Lorenzo/fang bit (each to their own)...

[Seva]

Good response Brother Tyler. I can see your point there. I think what makes me angry are comments like "Why play Blood Angels if you don't like vampires?" Some of us were drawn to the chapter before AOD. I know I like them because they are marines and they are red. I am a simple man I guess. I paint more than I play so color is a big thing with me.

 

Besides when actually playing the game it isn't like I am playing a role-playing game anyway so the fluff doesn't really come up.

 

Maybe this type discussion is what GW wanted. Two sides of the same army arguing about who they are. I can stand it with the debate as it stands right now, but if they go out and say "yeah sorry they are space vampires" I think that would be a shame.

 

Obey the Emperor.

[The Mangler]

I agree with Brother Tyler.

 

I like how the PDF portrays the Blood Angels as noble heroes and I think the vampiric bit takes away from that.