To Vamp or not to Vamp?

[igotsmeakabob!!]

The vampiric bit also adds a touch of tragedy to their otherwise angelic history.

[Israfel]

I have mixed feelings towards the vampiric theme of the Blood Angels. As a somewhat educated (in the sense of I read a lot of fluff) player I know that the story is more of a tragedy in the "Interview with the vampire" sense of way, while for the random guy/lady across the table who saw the model of Srg Lorenzo with fangs, its "Blade" written all over it.

 

When one reads the stories it is clear that there is a curse going on (which somewhat relates to vampirism) but the way I see it, although there are a lot of referrences to vampirism, it works more like a werewolf curse where the "full moon" is the heat of battle when the tragical memories of a our Angelic Father's death is triggered through the gene-seed.

 

Also the fluff points out to the daily struggle of the Blood Angels to steel their soul against the calling of the curse and we even have a few librarian characters (Mephiston and Ashok) even a full fledged chapter (lamenters) who have beaten or have not been touched by the curse. Even the whole god awful story Deus books make referrence (Red Fury to be precise) to the quest of the SHP's looking for a cure.

 

To me this was the most attractive piece of fluff. The sacrifice of an Angelic Father which leaves his childer stuck with a curse that they have to overcome on a daily basis. There are those who fall of course, however technically speaking the number of the members of the Death Company are very limited in nature compared to what we see on table top. The sense of loyalty, duty and honor embraced by the Blood Angels against the easy way of giving themselves to Chaos and become bersekers is fascinating IMHO. That's why I play Blood Angels :D

 

I actually like the curse concept but I am somewhat tired of trying to explain to the people I play against how Blood Angels are not vampires but tragic heroes struggling against the enemies of Humanity from within and without...

[Gv0zD]

Well, an interesting discussion, brothers!

 

First of all, I'd like to say that I personally find myself with the ones, who deny (or to say better, dislike) the vampiric associations.

 

I got fond of BA about three years ago, when I got my hands on the infamous PDF-dex. I tried to read as much fluff as it was possible, so I consider myself to be a well-informed about BA history.

 

Now, closer to the point.

 

I'd like to pay respect to Leonaidas, Morticon and Brother Tyler, as their opinions mostly correspond with mine.

 

Regarding the sarcophagi - as I remember the sarcophagi are used as facilities that purify BA blood, they are the means of curing the curse, while 'vanilla' vampires use them as instruments to prolong their life without feeding on blood.

The whole idea that BA are recruited from Baal's people suffering and struggling against the cannibalistic mutants also opposes the general concept of vamprism (otherwise the recruits would have the cannibalistic taint already).

 

Sanguinius can never have anything in common with vampirism. And the major BA trait, black rage, is the product of Sanguinius' gene seed injection. That fact makes me think that all BA 'darker' (black rage, red thirst and so on) nature should be referred to as a fine line between angelic heritage and demonic temptation that overwhelmed chaos legions. The other fact to protect my theory is the references to Sanguinius as chaos-tainted primarch (somewhere in Index Astartes article) that state that his wings are the product of chaos influence. So BA, being the most artistic and emotional legion (here I mean BA and all successors), they feel this fine line between the light and the darkness, the good and the evil much stronger than the other 'strict' loyalist chapters.

And the concept of their 'vampirism' is the authors' tool to highlight their inner struggle.

 

I also find the omophagea (or whatever it spelled) references irrelevant, as the possibility of its malfunction in other legions is the same as for BA. And I won't be surprised to see Ultra eating an eldar to find out their tactical intentions.

 

And in every rulebook or Codex, where Astartes legions are mentioned, there is the reference to BA that states that inquisitorial investigations against BA foun no proof of their genetic curse, and I personally do not think that inquisition does its work poorly :P

[spiros14]

The blood angels are not truly seen as vampires, they are infact vampire archtypes, just like the boys in blue are "romans, or civilised", space wolves are "vikings, or barbaric"or even Dark angels are "emos, or mysterious", Blood angels simply have "vampire, or gothic" archtypes, hence why we say "they are/not vampires" itd because its a compromise.

 

Cheers

Spiros

[vahouth]

The way I see Blood Angels, they are not Vampires but clearly have a tendency for blood.

Maybe the real Vampires are the ones who have the Red Thurst and are locked up in the Tower.

Mephiston could be the only "Vampire", since he is the only one ever to overcome the Red Thirst.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

i still don't understand why people are against the vampire influence. there aren't many players who make that a large part in their army in modeling or in fluff any way, so it shouldn't really matter.

 

there is a vampiric influence that is undeniable, and why can't sanguinius have anything in common with vampires? just because of his white feathery wings?

 

mephiston kept his blood drinking habits in game until 3rd ed, i think the only reason the rule was removed was because he spent to much time 'drinking blood' in game to be of use...but since i never played him in 3rd ed, i don't know.

[Lestat]

Brother Tyler does make a good point and perhaps has worded it better than I have done, but I think the debate has gone on long enough.

As I have mentioned previously, it is not a matter of whether Blood Angels are vampires or not, or whether they portray any one side of their nature more than another. I may have worded my original post a little too strongly, but let me ask the question again and see if I get a response to the actual question and not a debate as to the true nature of the Blood Angels.

 

So, why do so many people dislike the fact that there are vampiric influences within the background fluff of the Blood Angels?

 

I whole heartedly agree that there are many aspects to the Blood Angels nature and you have to embrace them all to truelly understand what it means to be a Blood Angel. They are nobel warriors, fierce in battle who give no quarter and ask for none in return. They embrace the fine arts and their longevity allows them to perfect their skills. But they also harbour a dark and terrible secret which they fight against every day of their lives, a secret which could see the entire Chapter fall from grace.

 

To me that is what it means to be a Blood Angel.

[Starblayde]

So, why do so many people dislike the fact that there are vampiric influences within the background fluff of the Blood Angels?

I don't dislike the fact there are vampiric influences in the fluff, I simply dislike that it's (totally incorrectly, imho) boiled down to 'Omg they're Space Vampires!'.

[Arschbombe]

there is a vampiric influence that is undeniable,

 

In GW's development of the background certainly, but that's completely different from saying the BA are vampires.

 

why can't sanguinius have anything in common with vampires? just because of his white feathery wings?

 

Because the vampiric traits of the Blood Angels developed after and as a consequence of Sanguinius' death. The Blood Angels didn't suffer from the Black Rage or Red Thirst during the Great Crusade. Sanguinius himself had zero vampire qualities.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

there is a vampiric influence that is undeniable,

 

In GW's development of the background certainly, but that's completely different from saying the BA are vampires.

 

why can't sanguinius have anything in common with vampires? just because of his white feathery wings?

 

Because the vampiric traits of the Blood Angels developed after and as a consequence of Sanguinius' death. The Blood Angels didn't suffer from the Black Rage or Red Thirst during the Great Crusade. Sanguinius himself had zero vampire qualities.

nope, the grail was used to hold sanguinius' blood when he was alive, and drinking his blood as part of the initiation has always been done in the chapter. if it weren't for that i'd probably never have thought of the BA as vampires, i would have just thought of them as another army with another historical influence, and a handful of marines who every once in awhile go crazy. it's the fact that they drink blood before the red thirst or black rage ever can effect them that builds them up as having a vampiric group.

 

So, why do so many people dislike the fact that there are vampiric influences within the background fluff of the Blood Angels?

I don't dislike the fact there are vampiric influences in the fluff, I simply dislike that it's (totally incorrectly, imho) boiled down to 'Omg they're Space Vampires!'.

ya know, i've never heard anyone say that seriously, i've heard it said as a joke of course, but i've never met someone who thought as the BA as vampires in power armour.

 

and to lestat and his question, the reason people get upset, is either because it's given to much of a presence by other players, or they just straight up don't believe that they have any vampiric tendencies.

[Arschbombe]

nope, the grail was used to hold sanguinius' blood when he was alive, and drinking his blood as part of the initiation has always been done in the chapter.

 

That could just as easily be a metaphor for christian communion, particularly the catholics who believe in transubstantiation in which the communion wine becomes the blood of the christ at the moment of ingestion.

[Angelus Mortifer]

To be honest, I get more annoyed when people say we are Khorne-Cadets, or Khorne-Light, rather than Space Vampires... :(

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

nope, the grail was used to hold sanguinius' blood when he was alive, and drinking his blood as part of the initiation has always been done in the chapter.

 

That could just as easily be a metaphor for christian communion, particularly the catholics who believe in transubstantiation in which the communion wine becomes the blood of the christ at the moment of ingestion.

it says the grail has always held sanguinius' blood for initiates to drink (whether pure or not) and we have been given no reason believe that anything other than blood was in it, honestly i'm not seeing how modern catholic traditions have any bearing on this topic, other than inspiration for the ritual.

[Brother Chris]

I think this a great thread! Really feel like we are getting to know more about the community. Of course Blood Angels are more than vampires, I don't think anyone denies this. For me they are renaissance knights, Italians, Angels, a red army, supersoldiers and Anne Rice or Bram Stoker style vampires, and their unique selves too. The point of Lestat's thread is I've never read anyone saying 'I just hate that whole red aspect' or 'I hope in the next 'dex they drop all that holy grail stuff, It's just too pre-raphaelite' It is only the vampire aspect which evokes such strong reactions, which seems to some of us very odd, as it is ingrained in the mythos of the chapter. Red Thirst? What on earth is that supposed to mean if it doesn't mean thirsting to drink blood?

 

I am a role-player first and foremost. I read WD when it was a role-playing magazine and gave up when it only started carrying table-top games. I came back to the hobby via Dark Heresy (and Dawn of War...). When I play I play to be a commander of blood angels, leading my troops in a way which seems appropriate given the fluff. (I confess that a lot of the rules mini-maxing of the 'if they all wear metal boxing gloves and hide behind a tank and inject the tank with an exsanguinator then you get an average of 1.5 more hits per square inch' leaves me cold). So for my style of gaming it suits me best that my men are noble conflicted vampires, all but cured of medieval limitations on the species but never the less subjects of fear and dread on primitive planets.

 

I pretty sure 'the Holy Blood and the Holy Grail' influenced the Blood angels more than straight Catholicism, but that's another story....

[Arschbombe]

it says the grail has always held sanguinius' blood for initiates to drink (whether pure or not) and we have been given no reason believe that anything other than blood was in it, honestly i'm not seeing how modern catholic traditions have any bearing on this topic, other than inspiration for the ritual.

 

 

The point is that drinking blood does not make one a vampire.

[Midnightmare]

I'm in the "vamparic overtures" camp. That is to say its there, in quietly in the back ground, but not overbearing. They are not vampires per say, but have vamp tendancies and are trying to supress them. However, I am sure certain characters in the chapter (not just Mephy!) positively revel in it, much to the disgust of some of their battle brothers, and the terror of their enemies/allies/civilians.

[Lestat]

I'VE CREATED A MONSTER!!!! ;)

This thread has become so much more than I set out for, but at last I am getting some responses to the original question - and for that I am truely grateful to the community.

Midnight Runner has an interesting perspective that it's not just Mephiston that revels in the vampiric traits - but on the flip side, it's not just the likes of Dante who revel in the renaissance overtures of the Blood Angels fluff.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

it says the grail has always held sanguinius' blood for initiates to drink (whether pure or not) and we have been given no reason believe that anything other than blood was in it, honestly i'm not seeing how modern catholic traditions have any bearing on this topic, other than inspiration for the ritual.

 

 

The point is that drinking blood does not make one a vampire.

last time i checked yes it does. i don't think it says anywhere that you have to suck the blood from the neck of something/someone to be a vampire.

[traitor_dice]

last time i checked yes it does. i don't think it says anywhere that you have to suck the blood from the neck of something/someone to be a vampire.

 

yeah some vampire myths say they drank blood from the nostrils.

 

Regarding the sarcophagi - as I remember the sarcophagi are used as facilities that purify BA blood, they are the means of curing the curse, while 'vanilla' vampires use them as instruments to prolong their life without feeding on blood.

The whole idea that BA are recruited from Baal's people suffering and struggling against the cannibalistic mutants also opposes the general concept of vamprism (otherwise the recruits would have the cannibalistic taint already).

 

I can't help but see similarities between this and porphyric hemophelia.

one of the supposed remedies for porphyric hemophelia was to drink the blood of healthy people (hence tha whole vampire thing)

 

now, don't shoot me (just some creative thinkin here)

 

suppose, the black rage = the equivalent of porphyric hemophelia. that would give some reason for the red thirst, which in turn could be suppressed by altering the blood artificially, hence removing the need to drink blood.

 

 

on the other hand, why would filtering their blood cure the black rage? or even suppress it?

[Gv0zD]

The sarcophagi are used to fill BA with newly generated blood. As their gene seed was take from the dead body of Sanguinius, his memories of his last moments in life were transferred to the recruits with his gene seed. It is said that as BA 'grow' Sanguinius gene-seed within Priests, this technique may have 'spoiled' the gene seed, thus the black rage appeared. And as they sleep within the sarcophagi their bodies are filled with newly generated blood that may prevent the black rage to overwhelm a marine.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

last time i checked yes it does. i don't think it says anywhere that you have to suck the blood from the neck of something/someone to be a vampire.

 

yeah some vampire myths say they drank blood from the nostrils.

 

Regarding the sarcophagi - as I remember the sarcophagi are used as facilities that purify BA blood, they are the means of curing the curse, while 'vanilla' vampires use them as instruments to prolong their life without feeding on blood.

The whole idea that BA are recruited from Baal's people suffering and struggling against the cannibalistic mutants also opposes the general concept of vamprism (otherwise the recruits would have the cannibalistic taint already).

 

I can't help but see similarities between this and porphyric hemophelia.

one of the supposed remedies for porphyric hemophelia was to drink the blood of healthy people (hence tha whole vampire thing)

 

now, don't shoot me (just some creative thinkin here)

 

suppose, the black rage = the equivalent of porphyric hemophelia. that would give some reason for the red thirst, which in turn could be suppressed by altering the blood artificially, hence removing the need to drink blood.

 

 

on the other hand, why would filtering their blood cure the black rage? or even suppress it?

well, i think this is part of why people are so against the vampire theme, they're trying to explain things in modern every day regular terms, saying that the grail is just a futuristic catholic thing, the sarcophogii and the blood thing being medical, but everyone needs to remember, that this is a game in a make believe world, and not everything here needs or can be explained away in such a dismissive fashion, and that's what make it so hard to come to a deffinative answer.

 

and about the just drinking blood to be a vampire thing, there have been modern cases where the gov't has called current groups vampire cults or covens, because the members would assault or murder people and drink their blood. a history channel special on the history of vamps talked about a specific kid who thought he was the traditional embodiment of a vampire, and killed his girl friends mother, drank her blood and branded her. or even elizabeth bathory was considered a vampire and she didn't ingest the blood at all, she just bathed in it.

[Jorre]

it says the grail has always held sanguinius' blood for initiates to drink (whether pure or not) and we have been given no reason believe that anything other than blood was in it, honestly i'm not seeing how modern catholic traditions have any bearing on this topic, other than inspiration for the ritual.

 

 

The point is that drinking blood does not make one a vampire.

last time i checked yes it does. i don't think it says anywhere that you have to suck the blood from the neck of something/someone to be a vampire.

 

So are you saying that if Joe Blow living at the end of the street started drinking peoples blood one day he would be a vampire? Of course he's not he's just a sick and twisted individual!

[Arschbombe]

The point is that drinking blood does not make one a vampire.

last time i checked yes it does.

 

NO, it does not.

 

Bananas are yellow.

Imperial Fists are yellow.

Therefore Imperial Fists are bananas.

 

That's your argument.

 

Drinking blood does not make one a vampire any more than eating blood sausage does, particularly when the blood-drinking is part of a ritual. Vampires drink blood for sustenance. Vampirism is much more than drinking blood. The Blood Angels are not undead. They were not turned by vampires. They are unharmed by sunlight. They can be killed with normal weaponry, not just wooden stakes through the heart(s), or be decapitation. There's no mention that they have issues with mirrors, crucifixes or garlic. They are not predators that feed on humans. The blood angels and their primarch have none of the classic characteristics of vampires.

 

All they have is a ritual of blood drinking as part of the implantation of the gene seed and a propensity to go mad.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

The point is that drinking blood does not make one a vampire.

last time i checked yes it does.

 

NO, it does not.

 

Bananas are yellow.

Imperial Fists are yellow.

Therefore Imperial Fists are bananas.

 

That's your argument.

 

Drinking blood does not make one a vampire any more than eating blood sausage does, particularly when the blood-drinking is part of a ritual. Vampires drink blood for sustenance. Vampirism is much more than drinking blood. The Blood Angels are not undead. They were not turned by vampires. They are unharmed by sunlight. They can be killed with normal weaponry, not just wooden stakes through the heart(s), or be decapitation. There's no mention that they have issues with mirrors, crucifixes or garlic. They are not predators that feed on humans. The blood angels and their primarch have none of the classic characteristics of vampires.

 

All they have is a ritual of blood drinking as part of the implantation of the gene seed and a propensity to go mad.

according to merriam webster to fulfill one definition they give is 'one who preys on others'

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/vampire

thus the drinking of blood would constitute preying on others.

 

and please avoid using the scarecrow fallacy in a debate.

 

and the harmed by sunlight thing in the vampire legend didn't come about until the movie/show nosferatu in the 19th century, and i'm not saying they're 100% vampire, just that they have vampiric tendencies and vampiric influences.

[Arschbombe]

according to merriam webster to fulfill one definition they give is 'one who preys on others'

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/vampire

thus the drinking of blood would constitute preying on others.

 

By that definition everyone's a vampire! Orks are vampires. Necrons are vampires. Nids are vampires. Dark Eldar are vampires. All of chaos are vampires. Blood Angels are also a bunch of vampires because they're really just con men preying on others with their financial schemes for time shares in Jamaica! How conveniently you ignore the first definition from your dictionary: "the reanimated body of a dead person believed to come from the grave at night and suck the blood of persons asleep." That's what most people mean when they're talking about vampires.

 

and please avoid using the scarecrow fallacy in a debate.

 

As soon you can make a coherent argument.

 

and i'm not saying they're 100% vampire, just that they have vampiric tendencies and vampiric influences.

 

The most you can say is that GW used the vampire archetype to flesh out the background of the Blood Angels when they wrote the fluff for Angels of Death. That in no way makes Blood Angels actual vampires in the context of the 40k universe.

 

Which leads to another question. Are there actually any conventional vampires in the 40k universe? They are obviously there in fantasy, but vampires would seem to be small potatoes for 40k. Pale-skinned hotties dressed in black sneaking around at night killing people by draining them of blood just doesn't seem terribly compelling when compared to the background of world-devouring nids, life-hating necrons and the insanity that is chaos.