Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra Posted October 27, 2009 Share Posted October 27, 2009 I don't dislike the fact there are vampiric influences in the fluff, I simply dislike that it's (totally incorrectly, imho) boiled down to 'Omg they're Space Vampires!'. This coupled with some of the incarnations this takes with some fans. I know the BA have vampire and pretty and gothic in the fluff, but that does not mean we need fashion victims with a faux-European accent giving each other long longing looks whilst preening through the battlefield "artfully" killing the enemies of Mankind. That stuff belongs with pre-Heresy EC, not the BA. Not to mention the QotD-BA fan stuff I've seen... Excuse me, I have to go look for the SAN points I lost writing this. Just hope I can find them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182797-to-vamp-or-not-to-vamp/page/4/#findComment-2165960 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattman Posted October 27, 2009 Share Posted October 27, 2009 To call them actual vampires, in the hollywood sense, would be wrong. To deny their vampiric traits and qualities is also wrong. They have been called vampires in the past, and while the inquisition has turned up little evidence on the matter it doesnt mean that they cant cover their tracks either. The facts are there, but to think of them as vampire counts in space is probably one of the things that sets most players off. We all know that the red thirst and black rage exist, but the rest of the empire has only heard rumors of these things as its one of the BA's and their successors most closely guarded secrets. Call it what you will, but i dont see any reason to deny it [vampire qualities] completely as the proof is all over our most reliable sources of fluff. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182797-to-vamp-or-not-to-vamp/page/4/#findComment-2166049 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lestat Posted October 27, 2009 Author Share Posted October 27, 2009 The point is that drinking blood does not make one a vampire. last time i checked yes it does. NO, it does not. Bananas are yellow. Imperial Fists are yellow. Therefore Imperial Fists are bananas. That's your argument. Drinking blood does not make one a vampire any more than eating blood sausage does, particularly when the blood-drinking is part of a ritual. Vampires drink blood for sustenance. Vampirism is much more than drinking blood. The Blood Angels are not undead. They were not turned by vampires. They are unharmed by sunlight. They can be killed with normal weaponry, not just wooden stakes through the heart(s), or be decapitation. There's no mention that they have issues with mirrors, crucifixes or garlic. They are not predators that feed on humans. The blood angels and their primarch have none of the classic characteristics of vampires. All they have is a ritual of blood drinking as part of the implantation of the gene seed and a propensity to go mad. according to merriam webster to fulfill one definition they give is 'one who preys on others' http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/vampire thus the drinking of blood would constitute preying on others. and please avoid using the scarecrow fallacy in a debate. and the harmed by sunlight thing in the vampire legend didn't come about until the movie/show nosferatu in the 19th century, and i'm not saying they're 100% vampire, just that they have vampiric tendencies and vampiric influences. according to merriam webster to fulfill one definition they give is 'one who preys on others'http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/vampire thus the drinking of blood would constitute preying on others. By that definition everyone's a vampire! Orks are vampires. Necrons are vampires. Nids are vampires. Dark Eldar are vampires. All of chaos are vampires. Blood Angels are also a bunch of vampires because they're really just con men preying on others with their financial schemes for time shares in Jamaica! How conveniently you ignore the first definition from your dictionary: "the reanimated body of a dead person believed to come from the grave at night and suck the blood of persons asleep." That's what most people mean when they're talking about vampires. and please avoid using the scarecrow fallacy in a debate. As soon you can make a coherent argument. and i'm not saying they're 100% vampire, just that they have vampiric tendencies and vampiric influences. The most you can say is that GW used the vampire archetype to flesh out the background of the Blood Angels when they wrote the fluff for Angels of Death. That in no way makes Blood Angels actual vampires in the context of the 40k universe. Which leads to another question. Are there actually any conventional vampires in the 40k universe? They are obviously there in fantasy, but vampires would seem to be small potatoes for 40k. Pale-skinned hotties dressed in black sneaking around at night killing people by draining them of blood just doesn't seem terribly compelling when compared to the background of world-devouring nids, life-hating necrons and the insanity that is chaos. OK Gents, please keep it civil - there really is no need to start a flame war. I realise that this topic has far surpassed the original question and has turned into a great debate, but if you carry on likt that then the MODS will probably shut this down. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182797-to-vamp-or-not-to-vamp/page/4/#findComment-2166051 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khavos Posted October 27, 2009 Share Posted October 27, 2009 This has been an interesting thread to page through. I have no real affinity for the Blood Angel fluff, but I do very much like the Codex, as I'd like to make myself an assault-focused army. However, the fluff monkey in my head has issues with using a specific chapter's codex without my DIY being a successor of that chapter; consequently, I'd have to get on board with the Blood Angels bandwagon in order to let myself do it, and I simply can't get past the "We r spehss vampires!" image. I know there's more to them than that, but every time I start building a list from the BA 'dex, I start going, "Man, I really don't want to field an army of dudes who are going to wind up going insane or drinking everybody's blood before/after the battle." Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182797-to-vamp-or-not-to-vamp/page/4/#findComment-2166120 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonaides Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 Thats ok - the BA's dont, as a rule, do that any more than any other marine chapter might. Drinking blood plays a part of 1 codex-confirmed ritual at the very start of their lives as Marines. If they happen to become sanguinary priests then they will do so again, at least once. IIRC, these are the only 2 confirmed times when BA's drink blood intentionally (as distinct from Blood Drinkers, ref 'Space Marine'). Thte Death Company, drinking blood and vampire thing - probably a confusion with simply wanting to use every available weapon to kill the enemy (who they believe is Horus, after all), read the Illiad for another good example - Agammemnon runs out of spears, loses his sword and promptly tears out someones throat with his teeth because its the next best weapon he has left... Strangely, no-one thought he was a frothing mad, bloodthirsty vampire type...... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182797-to-vamp-or-not-to-vamp/page/4/#findComment-2166340 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattman Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 i dont mind the refernce to ancient literature there leonaides, but gothic horror didnt come about for another 1500 or so years. Disdaining the obvious references are one thing, but the tunnel vision and different interpretations of the fluff are what is causing any type of disagreement here whatsoever. They drink blood, maybe not for sustenance, but still they do it. True that its only part of their creation, and a curse that they strive to defeat, its still a central part of the chapter's fluff. Defeating the black rage is only half of the gene curse, the red thirst is still something that some people choose to ignore. Moriar and Mephiston both had fluff regarding the need for blood, but out of the 1000 or so marines that are alive you want me to believe that only 2 have had any problems with blood drinking? What about the 10000 years since the heresy? still only 2? i dont think that "vampires in space" is the way to look at them, but they were certainly inspired by vampires, and the rennaissance literature that in turn inspired the creators of the modern vampire. They are a noble chapter with a curse, and that curse is twofold. Vampire qualities, and berserk rage. To quote the pdf " there are tales of a secret chamber atop the tower of amareo on baal and of the howling cries that demand the blood of the living, but none are willing to say for certain what lies hidden in this haunted, desolate place." Those that fall to the red thirst can be considered to be vampires, while not undead they are still vampires. Vampire bats arent undead yet we still gave them that name, so why does being a space marine make them any different? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182797-to-vamp-or-not-to-vamp/page/4/#findComment-2166366 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inquisitor_Lensoven Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 i dont mind the refernce to ancient literature there leonaides, but gothic horror didnt come about for another 1500 or so years. Disdaining the obvious references are one thing, but the tunnel vision and different interpretations of the fluff are what is causing any type of disagreement here whatsoever. They drink blood, maybe not for sustenance, but still they do it. True that its only part of their creation, and a curse that they strive to defeat, its still a central part of the chapter's fluff. Defeating the black rage is only half of the gene curse, the red thirst is still something that some people choose to ignore. Moriar and Mephiston both had fluff regarding the need for blood, but out of the 1000 or so marines that are alive you want me to believe that only 2 have had any problems with blood drinking? What about the 10000 years since the heresy? still only 2? i dont think that "vampires in space" is the way to look at them, but they were certainly inspired by vampires, and the rennaissance literature that in turn inspired the creators of the modern vampire. They are a noble chapter with a curse, and that curse is twofold. Vampire qualities, and berserk rage. To quote the pdf " there are tales of a secret chamber atop the tower of amareo on baal and of the howling cries that demand the blood of the living, but none are willing to say for certain what lies hidden in this haunted, desolate place." Those that fall to the red thirst can be considered to be vampires, while not undead they are still vampires. Vampire bats arent undead yet we still gave them that name, so why does being a space marine make them any different? thank you, that is what i've been saying...different words obviously, but still the same point. and you guys who say that drinking blood doesn't make them vampiric, would you recognize a villian in a story or book as a vampire if they had all the qualities of a vampire EXCEPT blood drinking if they never called the villain a vampire? i don't really think so, that is the one thing that has not changed in vampire lore through out time or location. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182797-to-vamp-or-not-to-vamp/page/4/#findComment-2166375 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Tyler Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 It's amazing that this issue is still being argued so vehemently. At this point, it appears that some members are merely perpetuating this discussion in a misguided attempt to assert that they are correct and that anyone who disagrees is wrong. Some will think that the Blood Angels are vampires no matter what. Some will deny this proposition. Those in the middle ground will recognize varying levels in between, ranging from mere influence of vampire tradition on the background of the Chapter to the Chapter being a variation of the vampire myth. Personally, I don't think that either of the extreme positions is tenable. Ultimately, I think that it's up to each individual to take the background of the Chapter as it has been presented by Games Workshop, to consider the opinions of others, and then to take the Blood Angels and their Successors to whatever level of vampirism they desire, whether that's a lot or none at all is completely up to them. Do we really need to get worked up over our little toy soldiers and the make believe game world? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182797-to-vamp-or-not-to-vamp/page/4/#findComment-2166419 Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitewolfmxc Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 the biggest problem i think others have a a problem with it is because of.........."Twilight" the movie..................lamest "vampire" (or so they think they deserve the bloody name) movie so far, gives vampire a bad name............ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182797-to-vamp-or-not-to-vamp/page/4/#findComment-2166524 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inquisitor_Lensoven Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 the biggest problem i think others have a a problem with it is because of.........."Twilight" the movie..................lamest "vampire" (or so they think they deserve the bloody name) movie so far, gives vampire a bad name............ it's getting kind of annoying hearing this (no offense) because this was going on before that movie came out. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182797-to-vamp-or-not-to-vamp/page/4/#findComment-2166561 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Assault Brother Pervazius Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 ive read pretty much everything i can about blood angels. While i see merit in the whole vampire thing, i ask this question. To those who have read the bloodquest series, im surprised noones brought this up. In the series a situation is placed where a blood angel confronts himself were he to fall completely to the red thirst. He looks like a demon, not at all a vampire. Now were he to fall completely to his vampiric urges why would he not turn into a vampire? which begs the question, how are they vampires when they can fall completely to their curse? and be turned to slavering demons, which are in turn put in the tower of amareo where you can hear unearthly cries from if im not mistaken in my fluff. If they fall to their curse do they just become...more vampire? or how does that work? are they vampires because they dont fall to their curse? or because they minimally indulge in their curse? isnt that why they form the death company, because once they are brought low during their prayer before battle they are overcome with images and visions, and were they left unchecked they would turn into a monster incapable of distinguishing friend from foe. Which gives rise to the death company chaplain guiding them into battle, instead of leaving them in the apothecarion to mutate and change. (if were going to take the deus series into context, theres no reason the bloodquest series isnt just as applicable as it) not trying to say one way or the other, just looking to clear up my heads confused thoughts Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182797-to-vamp-or-not-to-vamp/page/4/#findComment-2166568 Share on other sites More sharing options...
daboarder Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 the biggest problem i think others have a a problem with it is because of.........."Twilight" the movie..................lamest "vampire" (or so they think they deserve the bloody name) movie so far, gives vampire a bad name............ it's getting kind of annoying hearing this (no offense) because this was going on before that movie came out. i agree this hasn't come up because of those books. i just dont like the idea of them being vampires in SPACE, im all for traits and tendancies, like i said before i love lorenzo's model fangs and all. theres just more to them than that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182797-to-vamp-or-not-to-vamp/page/4/#findComment-2166603 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inquisitor_Lensoven Posted October 29, 2009 Share Posted October 29, 2009 hey, don't mean to reignite the debate, just didn't think this deserved it's own topic, and this seems to be the most appropriate place currently to post it. so i was just watching a show on history channel, and they were talking about vlad tempsh (vlad the impaler aka vlad dracul) and they interviewed a man who talked about how he was a hero at the time because he was one of the main reasons the muslims couldn't invade europe, and then the guy says 'i do think he was a hero, but a hero with a darker side' now maybe it just me, but isn't that a line thats been used to describe the BA quite often? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182797-to-vamp-or-not-to-vamp/page/4/#findComment-2168496 Share on other sites More sharing options...
daboarder Posted October 29, 2009 Share Posted October 29, 2009 yeah vlad is a local hero in his area, he was also very much against the aristocrasy, mostly because they'd rebeled against his father, and had the power to disthrone him too so he had alot of the husars killed. but yeah the ottomans really didn't like the bloke. he's a very interesting character really. though impalment is a really terrible thing to do to people. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182797-to-vamp-or-not-to-vamp/page/4/#findComment-2168789 Share on other sites More sharing options...
igor Posted October 30, 2009 Share Posted October 30, 2009 the biggest problem i think others have a a problem with it is because of.........."Twilight" the movie..................lamest "vampire" (or so they think they deserve the bloody name) movie so far, gives vampire a bad name............ it's getting kind of annoying hearing this (no offense) because this was going on before that movie came out. Before the poor excuse for written 'entertainment' that is the Twilight series came out, it wasn't so much of a problem for the Blood Angels to be summarised as 'Space Vampires', as the presiding image of Vampires pre-Twilight was that of a nasty-rip-your-face-off-and-bathe-in-your-blood creature, rather than the post-Twilight 'Vampires' who are best decribed as pathetic-sloppy-mushy-blouses. Twilight wasn't the cause of the BA's being called Space Vampires, but it is a major part of the reason I really dislike them being referred to as such now. On a slightly related note, my Warhammer army is Vampire Counts, and their image has been tarnished far, far, far worse by Twilight than the BA's have. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182797-to-vamp-or-not-to-vamp/page/4/#findComment-2169243 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lestat Posted October 31, 2009 Author Share Posted October 31, 2009 Glad to see that the debate has calmed down a bit. It's been great to see peoples differing opinions on what they draw on for inspiration in the Blood Angels fluff. Once again, thanks for all the replys. I agree whole-heartedly that Blood Angels are not just vampires in space, but that is one of many facets to the whole thing. I think that it is entirely your own choice whether you model them with a vampiric influence or not. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182797-to-vamp-or-not-to-vamp/page/4/#findComment-2170860 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inquisitor_Lensoven Posted November 1, 2009 Share Posted November 1, 2009 i would just like to see one or two more models w/ a bit of a darker look to them, like mephiston has. i can't make any of my own custom sculpts, and i can't really think of how to convert them so it's just a little thing you feel without making it to obvious. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182797-to-vamp-or-not-to-vamp/page/4/#findComment-2171244 Share on other sites More sharing options...
traitor_dice Posted November 1, 2009 Share Posted November 1, 2009 Which leads to another question. Are there actually any conventional vampires in the 40k universe? They are obviously there in fantasy, but vampires would seem to be small potatoes for 40k. Pale-skinned hotties dressed in black sneaking around at night killing people by draining them of blood just doesn't seem terribly compelling when compared to the background of world-devouring nids, life-hating necrons and the insanity that is chaos. aha! my area of expertise - Thexian Vampires. (google them) originally listed in the 3rd ed rulebook, and also known as the Cythor Fiends. essentially, they're polymorphic (shape-shifters) who in their true form look like a giant bat (like a WHFB vampire counts Varguhlf) and have supposedly infiltrated virtually every race. they don't feed off blood as such, more like lie force, via prolonged physical contact with the victim. so i was just watching a show on history channel, and they were talking about vlad tempsh (vlad the impaler aka vlad dracul) you're thinking of Vlad Tepes. Vlad dracul was his father. he was also referred to as vlad dracula, in reference to his father, meaning "son of the dragon". Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182797-to-vamp-or-not-to-vamp/page/4/#findComment-2171256 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inquisitor_Lensoven Posted November 1, 2009 Share Posted November 1, 2009 Which leads to another question. Are there actually any conventional vampires in the 40k universe? They are obviously there in fantasy, but vampires would seem to be small potatoes for 40k. Pale-skinned hotties dressed in black sneaking around at night killing people by draining them of blood just doesn't seem terribly compelling when compared to the background of world-devouring nids, life-hating necrons and the insanity that is chaos. aha! my area of expertise - Thexian Vampires. (google them) originally listed in the 3rd ed rulebook, and also known as the Cythor Fiends. essentially, they're polymorphic (shape-shifters) who in their true form look like a giant bat (like a WHFB vampire counts Varguhlf) and have supposedly infiltrated virtually every race. they don't feed off blood as such, more like lie force, via prolonged physical contact with the victim. so i was just watching a show on history channel, and they were talking about vlad tempsh (vlad the impaler aka vlad dracul) you're thinking of Vlad Tepes. Vlad dracul was his father. he was also referred to as vlad dracula, in reference to his father, meaning "son of the dragon". yes i know who i'm talking about thank you. i may have misspelled the romanian name, but oh well Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182797-to-vamp-or-not-to-vamp/page/4/#findComment-2171514 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Posted November 5, 2009 Share Posted November 5, 2009 I always considered that making a reference to Blood Angels as being vampires was taboo and that any blood drinking that was done by those not affected by the red thirst was done purely out of ritual. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182797-to-vamp-or-not-to-vamp/page/4/#findComment-2175528 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sovereign Posted November 5, 2009 Share Posted November 5, 2009 My main interest is for the Jump Packs, as they're the only army that can take an all-JP army. I'm not interested in BA Fluff. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182797-to-vamp-or-not-to-vamp/page/4/#findComment-2175714 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra Posted November 5, 2009 Share Posted November 5, 2009 What really gets to me in all this is that the BA who've succumbed to the Red Thirst are howling for blood, but the ones who haven't aren't, and yet many seem to more than willing to treat the whole lot as vampires. To put it in other words, because some cars are red, some people seem to think all cars are red. Not so, I'm afraid. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182797-to-vamp-or-not-to-vamp/page/4/#findComment-2176061 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattman Posted November 5, 2009 Share Posted November 5, 2009 Howling for blood and having the desire for blood are 2 different things. How can they succumb to the red thirst if the desire is never there to begin with? The red thirst is a curse inherent in ALL blood angels, not just a fraction or only the ones that wind up at the top of a tower. Being blatantly vampiric and having the craving tugging at your will constantly are different, but still a part of the same thing. a better comparison is : some drug users are addicts, does that make all of them addicts? no, but they are still drug users. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182797-to-vamp-or-not-to-vamp/page/4/#findComment-2176175 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inquisitor_Lensoven Posted November 6, 2009 Share Posted November 6, 2009 ive read pretty much everything i can about blood angels. While i see merit in the whole vampire thing, i ask this question. To those who have read the bloodquest series, im surprised noones brought this up. In the series a situation is placed where a blood angel confronts himself were he to fall completely to the red thirst. He looks like a demon, not at all a vampire. Now were he to fall completely to his vampiric urges why would he not turn into a vampire? which begs the question, how are they vampires when they can fall completely to their curse? and be turned to slavering demons, which are in turn put in the tower of amareo where you can hear unearthly cries from if im not mistaken in my fluff. If they fall to their curse do they just become...more vampire? or how does that work? are they vampires because they dont fall to their curse? or because they minimally indulge in their curse? isnt that why they form the death company, because once they are brought low during their prayer before battle they are overcome with images and visions, and were they left unchecked they would turn into a monster incapable of distinguishing friend from foe. Which gives rise to the death company chaplain guiding them into battle, instead of leaving them in the apothecarion to mutate and change. (if were going to take the deus series into context, theres no reason the bloodquest series isnt just as applicable as it) not trying to say one way or the other, just looking to clear up my heads confused thoughts i've never heard/read this, does it say they literally turn into a demon? i'm pretty sure by the imperium's standards a vampire is still a demon. any thing that is perceived as evil and non-human for the most part is called a demon by the imperium. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182797-to-vamp-or-not-to-vamp/page/4/#findComment-2176856 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattman Posted November 6, 2009 Share Posted November 6, 2009 In some cultures Vampires are seen as completely demonic things. hell in some literature demons are angelicly beautiful. Just because the guy didnt look like Konrad Von Karstein doesnt mean he isnt "vampire". Everyone is talking in absolutes here, while the obvious fact is that its a gray area. Its not something that has to be played up or left completely out, but its there. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/182797-to-vamp-or-not-to-vamp/page/4/#findComment-2176861 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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