IA: The Stonebound

[Lysimachus]

Anyone like my chances of getting this 'up-to-scratch' in time for the gauntlet to end?

 

I reckon you're pretty well set, Ace, it's looking good!

 

The only thing I'd say is that the new colour scheme doesn't seem quite the same as it was? I know it's not going to be identical but.... If I'm honest I think you need to use some different colours for some contrast, perhaps do the soft armour differently so that it stands out from the cream/yellow? Same thing goes for the eyes, IMHO they should always be the focal point of any scheme, and atm they don't really pop?

 

Also, you might want to try a darker red on the 1st Co. scheme, you describe it in the article as 'a dull red' but it looks quite vibrant atm?

 

 

Edit: I'm bored so.... :mellow:

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/sm.php?b62c=@hCCIV_i6IVO.hBgCA@_@@@@@hEHsF@hEA0I@@__@@@@_@@@_@@@_@_@_@@@@_@@@..@@@@@@@@@@_@@.iakk7&grid=TRUE

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/sm.php?b62c=@hCCIV_i6IVO.hsDud@_@.@@@hEHsF@hEA0I@@__@.@@_@@@_@@@.@.@_@@@@_@@@hBgCAhBgCA@@@@@@.@@@_@.hBgCAiakk7&grid=TRUE

 

used a standard grey for the soft armour (what I use on pretty much every scheme I've ever done) and green for the eyes, although a strong but light blue or maybe bright red to tie in with the 1st Co. would probably work?

 

Double edit: Damn, looking back I don't think I've got the brown quite right... but you get the idea anyway

 

 

IG PC 38/40 (2 more to go!)

Edited April 13, 2010 by Strike Captain Lysimachus

[Ace Debonair]

Hmm. Different coloured eyes is definitely an improvement.

 

I assure you the brown/bone/red I used are exactly the same colour, although I admit they look different on the new painter. I especially like that red (the same as the dark red on the Red Lords, coincidentally) so I'm more likely to change the description than the colour. I also really like the cream/bone colour I used for the soft armour, although ironically I put it there by accident. In all seriousness, though, I don't think black or grey looks so good for soft armour anymore. I'll try playing with the painter for a bit.

 

I see you also took new the trim off of the shoulders for the first company. Bah. :D

Let's see what I can do.

How about these as possible replacements?

 

And the originals, just for comparison. I'll get rid of all pics once a decision is reached, I think.

 

EDIT: Actually, looking at them like this, I think the original ones look pretty damn good too. This one's gonna go to the judges. Anyone with an opinion on these colour schemes, rise up and vote! Make your voices heard! ;)

 

EDIT II: Removed pictures, since consensus ruled in favour of the lighter brown. ;)

Edited April 13, 2010 by Ace Debonair

[Brother Argent]

Option A looks more stone bound. Option B looks more chocolate brown. ;)

 

Out of the two I vote Option A, but I think a little lighter might look better. I don't know. Currently just hit midnight here so I'm not making much sense (or even spelling words properly, it seems.)

[Ecritter]

I actually like your orignal color scheme. It has a bronze-stone look and the newer does look much too dark. Just my opinion.

[Lysimachus]

Both are good, but I think somehow the original fits better for the Chapter; as I said my only issue with it is that it seems a bit two-tone (if that makes any sense?) and therefore nothing really stands out.

 

I see you also took new the trim off of the shoulders for the first company. Bah.

 

Ooops! That was an error, I do like the reversed trim for the 1st Co.! :)

 

Hmm. Different coloured eyes is definitely an improvement.

 

maybe if you kept the original scheme but just gave them different colour eyes that would be enough to make the whole thing pop a bit more?

 

I also really like the cream/bone colour I used for the soft armour, although ironically I put it there by accident. In all seriousness, though, I don't think black or grey looks so good for soft armour anymore. I'll try playing with the painter for a bit.

 

Fair enough, it just looks a bit odd to me that there are pieces of hard and soft armour the same colour? Perhaps you could try lightening/darkening one or the other very slightly so that there's some distinction between the two?

 

 

In the end, it's a minor bone of contention and/or just a matter of personal taste so don't mind me! After all, it's your baby! :P

 

 

IG PC 39/40

[Ace Debonair]

Ok, some possible alternatives again.

Can't decide whether that warm orange or cold green or blue eyes suit the scheme better.

I liked the bone-colour soft armour, but the red looks damn fine too, and breaks up the colour scheme a little better.

 

Opinions of all shades welcome! (See what I did there? :D )

 

EDIT:

Decisions were reached. No need for all the fancy artwork now. :P

Edited April 14, 2010 by Ace Debonair

[Lysimachus]

I like the red soft armour, it's different but it works.

 

The eyes: I don't like the blue, tbh. The other two work well though; the green is a nice contrast and the orange ties in nicely with the 'earthy' tones of the rest of the armour but still stands out.

 

Hmmm, well, I like the green.... and I like orange.... but which is better? There's only one way to find out! FIGHT!!! (Sorry, had a Harry Hill moment there :D )

Edited April 14, 2010 by Strike Captain Lysimachus

[Ecritter]

My 2 cents.

 

Eyes - Green if you want the eyes to stand out more, Orange if you want them to blend in more. Either is a good option. I agree the Blue is the worst option.

 

Shoulders - Cream is nice, but I like the Red better. But that being said, I don't like the Red belt.

 

Soft Armor - Red really seems to work well.

[Ace Debonair]

Well, that helps narrow it down.

 

I probably oughta restate that the second layer of pics is for the first company. Also, looking at them again, I think I personally like green more than orange for both colour schemes, so I'll use the green lenses for the Stonebound. Now to go do some editing... ;)

 

EDIT:

OK! Thanks everyone for helping me pick out some colours. Not really sure what else needs doing just yet... anyone got any ideas/spotted any mistakes?

Edited April 14, 2010 by Ace Debonair

[Grey Hunter Ydalir]

Well it seems you've been forging ahead at full steam Ace! I like to peruse your chapters because you seem to have that unquenchable passion to keep on going and going on a chapter no matter what life, or the Liber throws at you.

 

Frankly, I like the colour scheme posted in the last page here but I think that the red is too much of a juxtaposition with the theme. I think bronze, deep golds and steel are much more in-character for Dwarves. That said, the re-imagining of the original tolkien dwarves had green and red as part of their main colour palette depending on what faction you were going for in your mind and they didn't suffer for it. Space Marines however are a different asthetic completely.

 

I agree with the change of tactics from artillery to the more conservative use of their infantry, which is exactly how I see the Dwarves myself.

 

I might take a proper look at everything you've done if I get the chance. I was going to work on my Corsairs too but I am now working full-time and it leaves me much, much less time to work on things than I used to have and I'm still having to get used to it! That said, I'll try to check back and at least attempt to help with your epic amount of chapters headed for the Librarium Ace!

[Ace Debonair]

Well it seems you've been forging ahead at full steam Ace! I like to peruse your chapters because you seem to have that unquenchable passion to keep on going and going on a chapter no matter what life, or the Liber throws at you.

 

Yes indeed, it takes more than me being ill, my family being ill, and a generally hectic few weeks to stop me from writing about my plastic models.

 

Frankly, I like the colour scheme posted in the last page here but I think that the red is too much of a juxtaposition with the theme. I think bronze, deep golds and steel are much more in-character for Dwarves. That said, the re-imagining of the original tolkien dwarves had green and red as part of their main colour palette depending on what faction you were going for in your mind and they didn't suffer for it. Space Marines however are a different asthetic completely.

 

Well, you've confused me successfully. Is this a criticism of my colour scheme or a compliment? :wacko:

 

I agree with the change of tactics from artillery to the more conservative use of their infantry, which is exactly how I see the Dwarves myself.

 

I might take a proper look at everything you've done if I get the chance. I was going to work on my Corsairs too but I am now working full-time and it leaves me much, much less time to work on things than I used to have and I'm still having to get used to it! That said, I'll try to check back and at least attempt to help with your epic amount of chapters headed for the Librarium Ace!

Don't remind me... I still owe the Infinity Knights and Red Lords an update apiece, and the TT and SD need matching total rewrites :P . But, odds are against any of that happening before the Iron Gauntlet 1st round comes to a close, so I can at least sort of focus for a couple of weeks on fixing these guys up.

Edited April 15, 2010 by Ace Debonair

[Grey Hunter Ydalir]

Well, you've confused me successfully.

 

My work here is done.... :unsure:

 

 

To clarify:

 

I prefer the first one, but a splash of colour here and there among some other standout individuals wouldn't go amiss.

[Ace Debonair]

Well, you've confused me successfully.

 

My work here is done.... ;)

 

:P

Yes, mission accomplished. Maybe the captains might be more colourful, or something. Although I'm not sure exactly how to work that into the IA, so that might stay a 'hidden' detail. ;)

 

Next on the to-do list is potentially renaming all my characters in a more Discworld-dwarvish fashion.

For instance:

Jorn Fellis = Jorn Rockhammer

Oruc Be'scar = Oruc Stonebreaker

K'ahl Rocma = K'ahl Oakenshield

H'rad Argate = H'rad Thunderskull

Garant Brot =Garant Stonehearth

 

Or names to that effect.

I'll take public opinion on this, though - which names sound better?

Edited April 16, 2010 by Ace Debonair

[Captain Juan Juarez]

Thundergust...?

 

I shall leave everyones minds to wonder about that one, rather than say it outright... The others have the right feel though!

[Ace Debonair]

Thundergust...?

 

I shall leave everyones minds to wonder about that one, rather than say it outright... The others have the right feel though!

 

Heh, yeah. I took it straight from a Discworld novel, and hoped that the name (and probable meaning) would pass unnoticed. :D Might use Thunderarm or Thunderskull instead. :D

[Octavulg]

Grabpot Thundergust could be a famous Rogue Trader from that planet...

 

The two-layer joke that would create, I leave to you to figure out.

Edited April 16, 2010 by Octavulg

[Ace Debonair]

Grabpot Thundergust could be a famous Rogue Trader from that planet...

 

The two-layer joke that would create, I leave to you to figure out.

 

Nice. :jaw:

 

Yeah, I reckon Thunderskull sounds better for the marine. Sounds like he has a reputation for headbutting people who get up in his face. :o

[Apothete]

Grabpot Thundergust could be a famous Rogue Trader from that planet...

 

The two-layer joke that would create, I leave to you to figure out.

 

I support this, but only if the ship is called the Hobfast.

[Ace Debonair]

Grabpot Thundergust could be a famous Rogue Trader from that planet...

 

The two-layer joke that would create, I leave to you to figure out.

 

I support this, but only if the ship is called the Hobfast.

 

Fine by me. :)

 

Er. Do I have to add this to the IA?

Incidentally, I don't suppose anyone can see any flaws or anything in the main IA as it stands, can they? ;)

I suppose I should consider readying this for submission to the Librarium soon, what with the end of the challenge coming up and everything.

[Apothete]

Incidentally, I don't suppose anyone can see any flaws or anything in the main IA as it stands, can they? :)

 

I'll take a look tonight when I get home.

[Apothete]

Apparently, by "tonight" I actually meant "on Monday."

 

Ferocious on the attack, unwaveringly stubborn in defence, The Stonebound Chapter of the Adeptus Astartes are known best for their grim and unyielding service to the Emperor of Mankind. With skill, unswerving determination and quiet pride, they have fought His enemies and protected His subjects for millennia, and are resolved that they shall continue to do so - evermore.

 

I haven't read anyone else's criticism, so forgive me if I either repeat or totally contradict someone else's opinions. I'm approaching this with nothing but your writeup in front of me.

 

First of all, I would cut "of the Adeptus Astartes" from the introdiction and change the word order or cut "best" for reasons of flow. It seems like a pointless flourish since the Astartes are going to all be known for unyielding service and, with few exceptions, for their grimness. As such, it hardly bears mentioning unless it's going to let us know that your Chapter is somehow deviating from the established norms.

 

There's probably something in the continental separation between us to explain it, but I also think that a comma would go well inbetween "determination" and "and," along with a change in the very ending of the sentence.

 

...They called us 'Stone Warriors', for nothing their weapons could do could hurt us. Had we come to wage war, I would think nothing of it, and slain them like any other enemy. But the name has... appeal. We Astartes, bound in armour as enduring as the stone on which we stand..."

 

This is clunky.

 

Perhaps something more along the lines of:

They called us Stone Warriors, for no weapon could harm us in their hands. Had we come to wage war, I would think nothing of it and slay them outright. The name, though, had appeal. We Astartes, bound in armor as enduring as the stones upon which we stood..."

 

Created in the Sixth Founding from the gene-seed of Jaghatai Khan via the Red Sabres, the Chapter that would come to be known as the Stonebound were assigned to the Segmentum Pacificus to combat the threat of ever increasing Ork incursions. A cadre of Red Sabres veterans would train them for a time, overseeing the maturation of their first five generations of recruits, then return to their home Chapter. Alar Baines was the leader of this cadre, but would not claim the position of Chapter Master, insisting that his role was only to mentor the Chapter for a short time. He instead took up the title of Grand Captain.

 

Unless you've very specifically implying that the Stonebound are being created from geneseed that specifically belonged to the Red Sabres, I woud cut that part of the first line. If you are insisting that they come from the descendents, why is that important? Would it not be the case that any differences which were notable would be marked out as mutation, and thus the progenoids which were tithed would be indistinguishable from those of the original Legion? Then, if that is the case, would it not then be likely that the Adeptus Mechanicus would merely pool the geneseed by origin and - perhaps - tag it with source but not necessarily convey the latter to the Chapter being created?

 

The quibbles over geneseed aside, I actually like what you're doing with Grand Captain Baines in the setup phase of the article. It's nice to see a founder who isn't just a gung-ho megalomaniac who wants to control his recruits as long as possible.

 

Kagara is a world of wildly differing climate - the world's summers are often warm and pleasant, and the people there are able to farm all manner of produce to sustain them through the best part of the year. When the leaves begin to fall, however, the clansmen harvest quickly and efficiently, and begin preparations to leave their villages until the spring. This is because the winters on Kagara are extremely harsh - nothing human can survive the cold weather, and many of the dwellings made in the spring and summer are damaged or destroyed by the violent weather. The clansmen, in the later part of autumn, head underground to avoid these devastating, season-long storms, taking with them as much livestock and harvested food as possible. Such provisions are scarce in the vast labyrinth of underground tunnels, short of hunting and killing the deadly Gor'da, or 'dark lizards'. The Gor'da are large, dangerous creatures that dwell in the warmth of the underground passages. They usually lurk far underground, at deeper levels than those used by the people of Kagara, but are known to come hunting for an easy meal of human flesh. To ward off possible Gor'da attacks, the clans have built stone fortresses within the caves, in which they spend the coldest part of the year. Once the spring arrives, however, two things force them to leave and return to the surface - firstly, the lack of sustainable food, and secondly, the Gor'da become too warm in the deeps, and come closer to the surface, meaning a greatly increased number of attacks on the population.

 

Hey, cool, someone else who decided to do a culture which is primarily noteworthy for being underground.

 

While I approve of the idea as it stands, I do think that you could trim the fat from this section and say just as much without using as many words. There are also stylistic issues that make it not read as smoothly as it might if you were to patch things together with less sub-clausing. I'm not entirely sure why we're being told about the Gor'da unless you're going to bring them back up later, though I admit that I'm critiquing as I read so I don't know for certain if you're intending to do so.

 

Why would the tunnels be warmer than the surface, unless the population are going very deep into the crust, living near some kind of geothermal source, or you've got something else that you're not telling us about? My experience with caves - and I've been the better part of a mile down - is that they tend to be cooler than the ambient temperature outside. The obvious shelter angle is certainly laudable, but how do they keep warm if they're already laboring to support whatever livestock they bring along and carry their food in before the winters? Why would lizards, even large ones, be much of a threat if the Kagarans can build fortresses within the caves? Wouldn't it be a greater threat for them to prevent the refugees from going back to the surface and starving them into desperate attempts to flee?

 

When the Chapter first arrived on Kagara they saw that, for the people of a feral world, the populace showed great innovation in their lifestyles. Many of the underground tunnels were linked, mostly by natural occurrences, but sometimes by the industrious toil of the Kagaran people. This meant that clan interaction often took place away from sunlight, in the dark of the deep places. Everything from trade to warfare was conducted in the stone caverns beneath the surface. With the arrival of the Astartes, many Kagarans tried to fight, but after facing the fearsome 'stone giants' with their unbreakable armour and terrifying weaponry, each clan quickly agreed to meet with Grand Captain Baines. From their words, he learned much of the world, and in return he spoke of the Adeptus Astartes, The Emperor, and the threat posed by the Orks and other foul xenos.

 

They're not really a feral world if they're building fortresses, are they? I could see an argument for a fuedal world, perhaps even a civilization with a moderate amount of technology, but the typical portrayal of ferals is one of hunter-gatherers with little organization, small tribal bands, and a susbistence living. There's a bit too much planning involved for that to be quite believable here, I think. Additionally, if they're so far fallen from Imperial culture, how are your Marines able to speak with them?

 

Also, I think this is another place you could tell us just as much about the Kagaran character without using so many words. Plus, you telegraph the use of Orks later. I don't even need to read farther to know that they're going to come up.

 

Within two decades, the Chapter had built their Fortress Monastery, the Ka'hagul, or 'World-Fortress', deep in one of the largest stone caverns, and Baines had named them the Stonebound. The Chapter, by the end of its twentieth year on Kagara, had adapted to the world marvellously, and had taken in their first generation of recruits with acceptable levels of losses

 

Why would the monastery be named in the native tongue, especially if the Stonebound are so recently come to the world? It might be understandable if they had stood of and observed for a time, or if they'd had an established link to the culture, but it seems a bit abrupt to just move in, change your entire frame of reference, and then surrender at least a part of the belief system of the Chapter to untutored savages who haven't even heard of the Emperor. Even if Baines is planning on leaving his charges to their own devices, I'm sure that he wants them to be indoctrinated in the beliefs, practices, and doctrines of the Sabres and the White Scars before them.

 

As such, why would he then give up a key point in building a worldview - linguistics - when starting anew?

 

It was half a year later that the Orks came, attacking Kagara and the Stonebound in their thousands. Countless people, caught during their migration to the caverns, were slaughtered by the greenskins. The Stonebound responded quickly, Astartes rising from under the earth itself to gather as many of their people into the safety of the Ka’hagul as they could. Finally, just before the Orks could attack, the great gates of the Fortress Monastery slammed shut and the Siege of Kagara began.

 

Why would a descendent of the White Scars turtle up behind a wall, gather in civilians, and then undergo a siege rather than riding forth to bloody, swiftly waged war? Are there no lightning guerilla raids? No strikes against the most powerful beast within the Greenskin horde? No trophies taken from the strongest of the raiders?

 

They sound more like Imperial Fists than they do White Scars, to be honest.

 

One the first day of spring, Baines led his men forth from the Ka’hagul to exact vengeance against their foes. Although there were still many Orks and the Chapter sustained heavy losses, they triumphed over the invaders, slaying their Warlord. As the Orks tried to flee into the depths, the Stonebound followed on foot, to the deepest parts of the caves where the Gor'da made their lairs. They pushed the diminished group of Orks into battle with the Gor'da, watching in satisfaction as the numerous 'dark lizards' tore the greenskins apart. From that day forward the people of Kagara and the Stonebound have shared a common bond of victory in the face of mankind's enemies, and every ten years a feast is held outside the Fortress Monastery itself for all of Kagara's peoples to come and celebrate the honour earned that day.

 

Once again, why?

 

This is the sort of thing I would expect from the Salamanders, perhaps. Why would the Stonebound have concerned themselves with the plight of the Kagarans? Would it not have made sense to let them fend for themselves, the better to derive strong warriors and cunning hunters who could weather the lean times, the privation, the danger of the tunnels, and the need for speed, wariness, and stealth?

 

When Grand Captain Baines left Kagara to return to the Red Sabres, he made Jorn Fellis, Captain of the First Company, the first true Stonebound Chapter Master. Under his leadership, and those who came after him, the Stonebound have waged war against the foul Orks ever since. The Chapter has developed a fierce love of close combat tactics, and in a salute to Kagaran tradition, each marine carries an axe with him into battle. The axe, to the Stonebound, symbolises the role of a space marine - to brutally and irrevocably destroy the enemies of makind.

 

I don't recall any mention of axes before this point.

 

What tradition are we reading about and where did it come from? Why is it a tradition, especially in a people so used to tunnels and enclosed spaces? Wouldn't short stabbing swords, spears and pikes, and other thrusting weapons make more sense than something which you swing in a large arc in order to build up force? I used to handle an axe fairly often, though not as a weapon, and it always seemed to work best when I had the biggest swing I could manage.

 

The beliefs of the Stonebound have been heavily influenced by the attitudes of the Kagaran people. In Kagaran society, two abilities are prized over all others; skill in battle and craftsmanship, whether in carving stone or forging steel. From a very young age, all Kagarans are taught these skills and in Kagaran warrior tradition, a man is only truly a man when he has forged his own chain-mail and his own axe, and is ready to use them in the defence of his people.

 

This, once again, does not sound like a feral population.

 

Both of these customs are held dear by the Chapter. Each Marine learns to lovingly care for his own weapons and armour, but also to create other pieces, statues and sculptures in metal and stone, ornately decorated to commemorate victories or other notable events.

 

Are you sure you wouldn't rather make them Salamanders successors, given the characteristics that you're building up here?

 

Given the skills and devotion to craftsmanship among the Stonebound, it is unsurprising that the Chapter is able to maintain a higher than normal number of older suits of power armour. Many Marines within the Chapter wear their Mark VI armour with pride, while some veterans can boast of acquiring even older Marks.

 

How?

 

It's not as if the suits are just going to be laying around for the taking unless your Chapter are waging war on other Loyalists. Even assuming that the Stonebound were primarily using the mark of armor that was most common at their inception, that would still leave them with primarily Imperator suits and, perhaps, some Corvus. More importantly, what does their supposed skill have to do with maintaining an inferior mark of armor? Would it not be more likely that their favoritism is due to their heritage through the White Scars, who were known to wear that style during the Siege of Terra? Also, while the Stonebound likely produce at least some of their wargear, the odds are pretty good that their initial allotment of armor would have come either from the Mechanicus or the Red Sabres. It wouldn't have a whole lot to do with their predilection towards creation, which I'm about to get to...

 

Though the Blood Angels are known to revere aesthetic abilities and the Salamanders are master smiths and manufacturers, I'm not really sure just how this particular angle fits in the daily routine and warfighting skills of the Astartes. Where do they find the time to maintain and improve their smithing when there's so much to do already? What parts of their training are reduced or eliminated in order to provide time, when we know that a standard day for a Space Marine allows a mere fifteen minutes for optional pursuits? It obviously can be done but you don't tell us how your Chapter allows for this extra timesink.

 

Among the many practices adopted from the Kagaran population, the one that most often draws questions from other Imperial servants is the tradition of Stonebound Marines wearing pieces of mail over their power armour.

 

How is that any weirder than the pelts of the Space Wolves, the ossuary fixation of the Mortifactors, the bionics of the Iron Hands, the unorthodox deployments of the Mentors, or any of a dozen other distinguishing characteristics? If anything, I would argue that merely adding decorative mail to one's armor is one of the more prosaic measures I've heard of recently, roughly akin to company markings or personal heraldry.

 

Not only do they take care of more complex repairs and maintain the well-being of the Chapter’s machine spirits, but often Battle Brothers approach them when they have a need for spiritual advice.

 

Aside from questions of wargear and machine spirits, how are Techmarines going to be spiritual advisors? You give us a single throw-away line about their reverence for their equipment and this to follow, yet it doesn't really show up in the rest of the beleif section as anything other than a fiat declaration.

 

What effect does this reliance upon Techmarines have? Does it impact the Chapter's relationship with the Mechanicus? If not, then exactly what is it that the Techmarines have to say which makes them so insightful on anything other than proper maintenance or forging technique?

 

I ask this because I once tried to include a love of smithing and craftsmanship and couldn't come up with a good reason for it. If you can do better, then let's see the justification and explanation.

 

For this reason, the functionality of the Chapter Reclusiam is somewhat altered as well; their role more closely approximating the one held in other Chapters by a Master of the Recruits. Chaplains of the Stonebound focus much of their time on the 10th Company, instilling fierce pride, unbending belief and cold fear into their recruits. This fear is vital, as conquering it is a key part of the recruit's training, making them ready to face the innumerable terrors of the dark galaxy around them.

 

I'm confused.

 

The Stonebound's Techmarines are seen as sprititual leaders, and therefore the Chaplains' role is very similar to one which they would hold in most Chapters? While not directly the Master of the Recruits in a Codex-adherent Chapter, they are almost always involved in the selection, winnowing, observance, and eventual promotion of the recruits thanks to the spiritual and mental hardships that neophytes undergo. Additionally, I'm not seeing how the previous paragraph justifies this claim, which is what your writing implies, nor how this is adding anything commentworthy or unusual to the article itself.

 

Librarians in the Chapter are referred to as Sages, and during daily ceremonies will read from the Sagas - accounts of fabled heroes and tales of bravery and courage in the face of the enemies of Mankind. Their other duty is to maintain the Chapter's Grudge-Stones. These heavy tablets are carved from the walls of same cavern in which the Ka’hagul stands, and are used to record all of the losses and dishonours that the Chapter has suffered. When one or more of the Stonebound Companies go to fight against the enemy that has incurred this debt of vengeance, they will carry the Grudge-Stone with them until such time as they triumph over their foe, washing away the Chapter’s dishonour in the blood of their enemies. It may take centuries, or occasionally even millennia, for such debts to be repaid, but the Stonebound never forget and never forgive.

 

Okay, I like the Grudge-Stones. That's a nice idea and one which you've carried off fairly well, aside from one thing... Why did it start and where does the practice come from? It's a neat idea which kind of hangs in space, looking cool but not really connecting to anything else in the writeup. It sounds to me like the Stonebound began the practice, but you don't explain how, why, or who started it, which then makes me wonder what, if any, influence the Kagarans had on its inception.

 

Why the name change for Librarians? You haven't given us any ties to the planetary culture there, either, which makes it look like a break for its own sake. There's no mention of Kagaran Sages in your Homeworld segment, nor in the History, and so we're left wondering where the title came from and why it was awarded.

 

After battles, celebrations to honour the victory and the memories of brothers fallen in battle are held. These celebrations consist largely of impromptu feasts, and Sages or Chaplains will write and sing songs of the battle fought, or of the heroic actions of those who died. It is only during these celebrations that Grudge-Stones can be broken - usually by the Company Sage - and such an occurrence is cause for great celebration amongst the entire Chapter. The feasts can last from anywhere between an hour to several days, depending on if there are other battles to be fought immediately. The Stonebound hold that to not properly recognize a victory or a death will bring misfortune to the Chapter.

 

Once again, this could be a very nice, humanizing detail in an otherwise grim existence, but you don't give us any reason to believe it or feel anything over it. It's detached and unexplained, much as their inexplicable protectionist attitude was earlier.

 

Give us a good reason for it and it'll be fine. As it is, this is just as detached as the rest of the Beliefs section.

 

Whether or not they truly deify Him is something the Chapter will not be drawn on (unsurprising, given their reputation for grim introversion)

 

So they're grim, populace-rescuing, party-throwing, revelry-and-song participating introverts?

 

"Let the enemy charge like a fool, recklessly taunting fate. In battle, we are as the mountains of Kagara - patient and unbreakable!"

 

So a White Scars successor taught its own progeny to sit still? I suppose it's possible, but...

 

Wouldn't the Imperial Fists, the Ultramarines, or one of the other Chapters not known for berzerk, fast-paced charges make a litlte more sense?

 

At their inception, the Stonebound, like the majority of White Scars successor Chapters, favoured quick, hard-hitting assaults over ranged combat and many of their tactics focussed on the use of Astartes bikes and jump packs. However, these tactics often played into the hands of the brutal Orks and after several early losses, the Stonebound resignedly saw the wisdom of adopting a more defensive posture.

 

This isn't shown earlier in the writeup and, as such, is unsupported here. Fiat declarations are bad.

 

Nonetheless, individual Stonebound warriors continue to pride themselves on their proficiency in close quarters combat, becoming particularly skilled with the axes they each carry. Chapter Marines train almost constantly with these weapons, many learning to hurl them with deadly strength and accuracy in the event that a bolt clip should run empty at an inopportune moment.

 

If they're all smiths and craftsmen, and all maintain their Codex-dictated training regimen, then where do they find time to maintain and hone their axe-wielding skills?

 

Whilst Orks are still the foremost enemy of the Stonebound, they have also crossed blades with marauding Chaos warbands, put down heretical planetary rebellions, and in more recent times fought against a Tyranid Splinter Fleet believed to be a part of Hive Fleet Leviathan. The tactics used by the Stonebound change to suit the terrain and the enemy, but one thing is always placed above all others - ferocity.

 

What does this add to the writeup?

 

Also, the White Scars attitude regarding internment within a Dreadnought continues to hold much weight among the Stonebound, and many Chapter brethren see the hulking machines as nothing more than walking tombs. However, this is not to say that the Stonebound have no Dreadnoughts. Over the course of many centuries, a not inconsiderable number within the Chapter have become more comfortable with the ancient weapons, and see the opportunity to continue to serve the Emperor as one of ‘the Ironbound’ as a great honour.

 

Why would they hold any prejudice at this point, since their former love of speed and aggressive assault is already gone? That's the main reason that the White Scars appear to have a distaste for Dreadnoughts, since they're not as able to keep up in a fast-paced strike.

 

Or, to look at it another way, why would the belief change unless it's in response to some powerful outside stimulus?

[Apothete]

(Stupid Quote tag limit...)

 

In homage to their parent chapter, the Stonebound named their First Company the Redshields. Members of the Redshields are usually ancient marines; long-bearded, grizzled warriors who combine the wisdom of countless battles with ferocious skill-at-arms. Marines in the 1st Company paint their pauldrons a deep, rich red and each Veteran is gifted a finely crafted red shield. These shields are commonly decorated with personal heraldry, as well as badges and honours recognizing a Marine’s individual achievements. When a member of the Redshields dies his shield is hung on the outer walls of the Fortress-Monastery; from a distance it appears that the Ka’hagul is anointed in the blood of these heroes.

 

I like this part, just so you know.

 

The Chapter descends from the line of the Great Khan, through his sons, the Red Sabres. Like their predecessors, the Stonebound show no signs of gene-seed degradation or mutation, although the aggression and ferocity commonly associated with the sons of Jaghatai Khan are present. However, while these frightening rages are all too prevalent amongst the Battle Brothers once their blood has been fired, when not fighting or feasting the Chapter’s Marines have a reputation among Imperial sources for being somewhat introverted, some even claiming that they are stubbornly and intractably ill-tempered. Certainly, it has been noted that the Stonebound are generally quiet around others, preferring to hold muted, short conversations amongst themselves in the Kagaran tongue. Communication between the Stonebound and other Imperial forces typically happens at command levels only, and informal exchanges are extremely rare.

 

This is completely at odds with several other sections where you describe their actions, their beliefs, and their rituals. I've already mentioned it in the appropriate section but it bears repeating.

 

Whether these traits are due to mutations in their gene-seed or simply to the influence of Kagaran culture has been widely debated, but the Chapter view such questionings as futile and unworthy of a warrior’s time. The Stonebound are what they are, as they ever have been and as they ever will be.

 

Once again, I'm confused.

 

How can they be "as they ever have been and as they ever will be" if the Chapter has already undergone at least one radical realignment of their beliefs, assimilated a foreign culture, and then attempted to reconcile the two? Obviously they're different from the Red Sabres, from their early incarnation upon first making planetfall, and even from themselves before going to fight the Nightmare's Claws.

 

--------------

 

On a more general note, even once you've dealt with issues of internal consistency and possible fluff conflicts, you need to go back over this entire thing and edit for capitalization, grammar, and flow. After that, I'd look at either revising or cutting the battle with the Nightmare's Claws if only because it's a tad unbelievable that the Stonebound would defeat the force which annihilated the Chapter which trained them, especially since the Red Sabres presumably had more veterans and relics available to them. You don't want to fall into the MISS trap, now do you?

 

Still, this is workable. Keep at it.

[Ace Debonair]

Apparently, by "tonight" I actually meant "on Monday."

 

It's cool, man. I know dreadnoughts need their rest to stop 'em going crazy.

 

Well, the outsider sees most of the game and stuff. That's a lot of errors you've highlighted for me to play with.

Particularly the point about the caves is a good one, and I'm kicking myself for not thinking that through right. Kagara will have to have a thin crust, so the caves are warmer than the snow-storm in the winter.

 

The homeworld would make more sense as a feudal world. Looking back, I don't even think I meant to write 'feral'. :lol:

 

You don't think two decades is long enough to pick up some of the culture before naming the Fortress Monastery? OK, I'll make it four.

 

Do the White Scars defend exactly the same way they attack? I suppose it would make more sense for me to include a series of failed retaliations which wind up forcing a siege, then.

Although if I understand your words correctly, you want the Stonebound to leave the people of their homeworld all winter to be slaughtered by an Ork horde becuase that will make them better warriors. I think I see where you're coming from, but I doubt very much a chapter would so easily forsake a viable source of recruits if they can do something about it.

 

What tradition are we reading about and where did it come from? Why is it a tradition, especially in a people so used to tunnels and enclosed spaces? Wouldn't short stabbing swords, spears and pikes, and other thrusting weapons make more sense than something which you swing in a large arc in order to build up force? I used to handle an axe fairly often, though not as a weapon, and it always seemed to work best when I had the biggest swing I could manage.

Yeah, I left the axes out of the homeworld altogether. I'll see to that. As for why axes, ask Tolkien. It's his dwarves I'm ripping off. :lol:

 

Are you sure you wouldn't rather make them Salamanders successors, given the characteristics that you're building up here?

This is a very good question. It'd be much easier to make them Salamanders, which was one of the reasons I didn't. (if that makes sense?) The other is that I don't remember the last time I saw a Scars successor here on Liber. But I have to admit, the mental image I have of the chapter ties more neatly to Salamanders than Scars. I'll think about this.

 

 

How?

 

It's not as if the suits are just going to be laying around for the taking unless your Chapter are waging war on other Loyalists. Even assuming that the Stonebound were primarily using the mark of armor that was most common at their inception, that would still leave them with primarily Imperator suits and, perhaps, some Corvus. More importantly, what does their supposed skill have to do with maintaining an inferior mark of armor?

 

I always understood that the older marks of armour were better, but harder to make or come by. Perhaps I have muddled my information.

I didn't include where they got them, because listing interactions where exchanges of equipment are made in every IA I write is not fun. I'll probably just chop this out, though. I suspect it'll be more hassle than it's worth to keep it.

 

Though the Blood Angels are known to revere aesthetic abilities and the Salamanders are master smiths and manufacturers, I'm not really sure just how this particular angle fits in the daily routine and warfighting skills of the Astartes. Where do they find the time to maintain and improve their smithing when there's so much to do already? What parts of their training are reduced or eliminated in order to provide time, when we know that a standard day for a Space Marine allows a mere fifteen minutes for optional pursuits? It obviously can be done but you don't tell us how your Chapter allows for this extra timesink.

 

So you want me to detail what each group of marines (tactical, assault, biker etc) does less of to fit in a bit of forging? I see your point, but I'll confess to being confused. Would something about marines doing an hour's forging per day in the reserve companies to build patience (and of course weapons ;) ) be suitable?

 

How is that any weirder than the pelts of the Space Wolves, the ossuary fixation of the Mortifactors, the bionics of the Iron Hands, the unorthodox deployments of the Mentors, or any of a dozen other distinguishing characteristics? If anything, I would argue that merely adding decorative mail to one's armor is one of the more prosaic measures I've heard of recently, roughly akin to company markings or personal heraldry.

This stemmed from a desire to prevent people going "why are your marines better armoured than everyone else?" The best way was to make the mail decorative, and then consensus opinion was that it was just weird. I guess reflecting that opinion within the IA was a bad idea.

 

I'll look back over the Chaplains and Techmarines bit. It made sense at the time, honest.

Consider the Librarians Librarians again, too. I suspect the Homeworld needs enough work without trying to squash some iconic Sages in there too.

 

So they're grim, populace-rescuing, party-throwing, revelry-and-song participating introverts?

 

Eh... you got it... :)

More like Grim, Chapter-Future-Defending, Dead-Remembering-via-good-quaffing introverts, but it appears I have failed to convey this image correctly.

 

Thank you for pointing out that the first action I described is competely at odds with how a White Scars successor would act. There were two decades where the chapter would battle like the White Scars and Red Sabres, but since nothing important happened I left them out.

If they're all smiths and craftsmen, and all maintain their Codex-dictated training regimen, then where do they find time to maintain and hone their axe-wielding skills?

During the time other marines have to train with knives, perhaps? I don't think I need to spell out that one replaces the other. I see your point, though.

 

Why would they hold any prejudice at this point, since their former love of speed and aggressive assault is already gone? That's the main reason that the White Scars appear to have a distaste for Dreadnoughts, since they're not as able to keep up in a fast-paced strike.

So it's nothing to do with the Scars seeing Dreadnoughts basically as prisons for the soul then? I picked that idea up from somewhere on this board. I just wish I could remember where.

I also thought dreadnoughts could deep strike. You can't get to a fight much faster than landing on the enemy. :D

 

Two posts-worth of insight? Many thanks!

Eheheh, turns out the bit that you like about this chapter was one of the bits that I didn't come up with. :P

I also forgot to review that section in the Geneseed about the rage and stuff. Well spotted.

 

How can they be "as they ever have been and as they ever will be" if the Chapter has already undergone at least one radical realignment of their beliefs, assimilated a foreign culture, and then attempted to reconcile the two? Obviously they're different from the Red Sabres, from their early incarnation upon first making planetfall, and even from themselves before going to fight the Nightmare's Claws.

 

Oops, forgot to rename the Nightmare Claws to Rift Lords. I see what you mean, too. That's an old part of the IA that never got re-written.

On a more general note, even once you've dealt with issues of internal consistency and possible fluff conflicts, you need to go back over this entire thing and edit for capitalization, grammar, and flow. After that, I'd look at either revising or cutting the battle with the Nightmare's Claws if only because it's a tad unbelievable that the Stonebound would defeat the force which annihilated the Chapter which trained them, especially since the Red Sabres presumably had more veterans and relics available to them. You don't want to fall into the MISS trap, now do you?

 

I'll make certain to explain that they certainly didn't engage the entire warband. The force they combat is of roughly equal number to their own. That's a small but important detail that somehow didn't make it into the sidebar.

I'd explain it further, (there's a fair bit of further to explain, too) but I kind of need that battle to exist for the IT: Rift Lords (formerly Nightmare's Claws) which I will start work on properly after the Iron Gauntlet concludes. If I absolutely have to, I'll take it out, but then my IT is going to lose a keystone.

 

On reflection I think most of my problems stem from avoiding total-from-the-ground-up rewrites. I suppose I'd better bite the bolter shell and take it from the top.

The other problem is, of course, that I can't really do the theme any heavier apart from calling the homeworld Moria and literally taking dwarf names out of Tolkien for the characters. Without reading the subsequent posts, not many people pick up on the Dwarvish theme. Unlike the first problem, I have no idea how to adress this issue.

 

Oh, and because I didn't say it yet, thanks for reading. Your input is gratefully recieved, and even if I don't 100% agree with some of the points (dreadnoughts and axe training, mostly) I'll re-write those bits with your advice in mind anyway. :lol:

 

Hopefully I'll even do it by the end of the month, but I can't promise anything. These secret caves don't maintain themselves, you know.

Edited April 20, 2010 by Ace Debonair

[Wildfire]

I quite like the bit about Techmarines and Chaplains. I'd like to see some more on that subject, it feels a little underdeveloped.

 

White Scars do hate dreadnaughts because the believe the soul should be free to wander after death. That's in their IA article.

 

@Apothete

In AD's defence, I think you're missing his intention to model the Stonebound after dwarves. If you keep that in mind, you'll find that a lot of the decisions he made about the chapter come into better focus. Some additional explaination may be in order in some places, but the "why?" is much more obvious.

 

Also, feral is probably a relative term. You seem to be picturing complete savages, stone age cultures such as early american indians or modern bushmen. I personally would consider Gauls or Celts feral, and they had both fortresses and smithing technology. And historically, the less advanced the culture the more they tend to revere the smith/toolmaker.

[Apothete]

It's cool, man. I know dreadnoughts need their rest to stop 'em going crazy.

 

I think the Techmarines have been a little lax in my case, since I so rudely rose into consciousness this morning before I should have...

 

Particularly the point about the caves is a good one, and I'm kicking myself for not thinking that through right. Kagara will have to have a thin crust, so the caves are warmer than the snow-storm in the winter.

 

Alternatively, you cuold have great, underground seas which are heated by goethermal vents, perhaps even made unstable and more prone to surge along ancient, worn paths in the forms of rivers, geysers, and other (convenient, yet mildly dangerous) channels that bring heat up towards the crust. How to explain it? The world has multiple, large moons that cause tidal stresses only during the already merciless winters, forcing tha Kagarans to hide from death above and below.

 

Plus, since I'm now aware that you're going for dwarves, they could have watermills and steam-powered machinery which they leave in place until the next season, coming back to do their forging for the approaching thaw. They take food, animals, and clothing down into the dark and come back with a nature-purged populace, steel tools, and a lean, hungry determination to tame the surface once more.

 

It's less Tolkein and more abject survival in bad circumstances, but I think that's more appropriate to 40k in any case.

 

You don't think two decades is long enough to pick up some of the culture before naming the Fortress Monastery? OK, I'll make it four.

 

To my mind, unless your Monastery takes centuries to build and all influence from the Imperium at large has worn away, it's probably not terribly likely that the place would be named in anything other than Gothic. Even allowing another couple of decades probably wouldn't be all that realistic because the initiates are going to be withstanding enormous amounts of information being pumped into their heads, along with psychodoctrination that's supposed to make their former lives seem less important than their new purpose. Plus, the White Scars are known to take initiates and break up their tribal groups, moving them around within the Chapter so that they lose affiliation to their old clans.

 

The weight of tradition is against you here, though I suppose you could argue the point if you have a sufficiently convincing reason. Also, and I don't know if you have, this would probably be a good place to actually use Tolkein's languages to name your fortress if you're going to insist on something not in Imperial Gothic.

 

In which case, I would advise the use of Gabilgathol, or "great fortress" as being something actually in Khuzdul.

 

Do the White Scars defend exactly the same way they attack? I suppose it would make more sense for me to include a series of failed retaliations which wind up forcing a siege, then.

Although if I understand your words correctly, you want the Stonebound to leave the people of their homeworld all winter to be slaughtered by an Ork horde becuase that will make them better warriors. I think I see where you're coming from, but I doubt very much a chapter would so easily forsake a viable source of recruits if they can do something about it.

 

Consider for a moment that we're talking about a Legion which is created, in large part, from the Huns and the Mongols. These are, historically, not terribly nice people who rode rampant across anything in their way and don't have a particularly good reputation when it comes to public relations or dealing with others.

 

Now, that doesn't mean that you can't deviate from that theme in any way, but it does require that you explain to us why they would abandon the ways of their forebears. The White Scars aren't really known for defending in any official source I've ever seen, since it would appear that they would rather find a way to take the fight to the enemy rather than stand behind a wall and shoot. I also don't remember there being any mention of a particular fondness for civilians, which is something of a hallmark for the Salamanders (and one of my reasons for suggesting them). As such, I would argue that a people who can't support and defend themselves, especially in terrain which allows raids, swift strikes, wheeling away to fade into the caves, and then a chance to range across the surface in better times... It's different from the typical view of the bikers and assault troops we're used to, but not so different that it lends itself to the interpretation that you've given us yet.

 

Justify it. Explain it.

 

I'm not saying to get rid of it, just to make it make sense.

 

I'll see to that. As for why axes, ask Tolkien. It's his dwarves I'm ripping off.

 

You ought to have them be secretive about proper names, then. No Dwarf in the books ever gave his true name to anyone, only using the Dalish or other languages of men when dealing with them.

 

This is a very good question. It'd be much easier to make them Salamanders, which was one of the reasons I didn't. (if that makes sense?) The other is that I don't remember the last time I saw a Scars successor here on Liber. But I have to admit, the mental image I have of the chapter ties more neatly to Salamanders than Scars. I'll think about this.

 

It's not so much that it's easy as it is that it's the only way that makes sense, barring events leading them down that path. The Salamanders are known for being more tolerant and social with humanity than pretty much any other Chapter, so it's no great stretch to imagine their successors inheriting that trait. As I previously mentioned, in a now-dead incarnation of the main Chapter, I was working this angle too and went through all the arguments in my head before finally dropping the idea for possible use later.

 

I always understood that the older marks of armour were better, but harder to make or come by. Perhaps I have muddled my information.

 

Ready for a short rant?

 

In complete opposition to the usual Warhammer 40k take on technology and the superiority of older equipment and vehicles, the protective qualities, features, and function of armor is continually getting better over time. The oldest mark, Thunder, had no life support and an open-faced helmet, was only as protective as "current" Carapace armor, relied on loricated plating to deflect blows, powered only the upper body rather than actuators everywhere, and had no autosenses or other additional abilities.

 

For comparison, Errant suits are completely enclosed environments with the ability to function for prolonged periods without additional support in vacuum, on death worlds, and against nuclear, biological, and viral weaponry. The torso is more solid and provides even more protection than the already superior Imperator armor, along with a raised gorget to protect the shelltrap that was the neck joint in older suits and the relatively weaker plating of the helmet. Alongside the improvement to power systems, the ligature and sythetic muscles that move the suit are stronger and faster than in previous marks, allowing for greater mobility and agility on the field. All power and support systems are routed beneath the armor, creating the first fully-contained Astartes suit and marking a break from the exposed cabling of past models. The backpack and suit contain food processing, water recylcing, waste processing, and medical support equipment, all of which functions without the need for direction from the wearer. Within the helmet, the Marine has access to autosense units which provide ultraviolet and infrared vision modes, along with audio pickups, olfactory sensors, and assisted targetting through the machine spirit of the armor, and he has gained a superior vox system which is particularly adept at handling battlefield data.

 

Carry-overs from previous refinements and improvements include the magnetic boot soles and retractable foot spike of the Imperator suit, along with the ability to use older parts to field repair the suit if necessary. Thus, as you can almost certainly see, we have armor which is qualitatively superior to what came before it, yet it isn't being pumped out in massive numbers because of the stodgy distrust of the traditionalists.

 

I see your point, but I'll confess to being confused. Would something about marines doing an hour's forging per day in the reserve companies to build patience (and of course weapons) be suitable?

 

I'm not really certain where you should go on this point, myself.

 

On the one hand, I can understand that it's supposed to be a big part of your Chapter's character that they closely mirror dwarves as often as possible, but it doesn't make sense from the standpoint of warrior-monk zealots who spend the vast majority of their day preparing for war. Perhaps you could make it a part of their spiritual practice, so that a portion of their usual schedule becomes worship-by-forging, creating something lasting and of use in the struggles to come as a way of showing their devotion?

 

This stemmed from a desire to prevent people going "why are your marines better armoured than everyone else?" The best way was to make the mail decorative, and then consensus opinion was that it was just weird. I guess reflecting that opinion within the IA was a bad idea.

 

Honestly, I wouldn't worry too much about mail armor being "better" than the ceramite and plasteel underneath it. If anything, mail is really only protection against bladed weapons in any case, since blunt ones smash against what's beneath it and projectiles go through it.

 

Unless you come up with a great reason for explaining it as anything more than decorative flourishes, I would stick with that angle.

 

Consider the Librarians Librarians again, too. I suspect the Homeworld needs enough work without trying to squash some iconic Sages in there too.

 

Alternatively, you could work the Sages in by mentioning them as being important to the Kagarans' daily lives, perhaps by making them akin to Imperial Remembrancers. If the Kagarns don't rely on paper for their record keeping because of their frequent need to move suddenly, but they don't want to carry stones around with them all the time, then locking contracts, lineages, and other important knowledge up in the heads of trusted, highly schooled elders would provide a great lead-in for the thematic elements of Librarians, if not the psyker potential. It also gives you a reason for the Grudge Stones, since the Sages would be the keepers of these tales and they could carve them in the deeps when the tribes hide from the winter.

 

Thank you for pointing out that the first action I described is competely at odds with how a White Scars successor would act. There were two decades where the chapter would battle like the White Scars and Red Sabres, but since nothing important happened I left them out.

 

Their doctrines changed, apparently. I would call that important.

 

I don't think I need to spell out that one replaces the other. I see your point, though.

 

Fair enough.

 

So it's nothing to do with the Scars seeing Dreadnoughts basically as prisons for the soul then? I picked that idea up from somewhere on this board. I just wish I could remember where.

 

It's possible that this is true, and I admit that I'm fuzzier on the Scars than I am on most Legions. If so, then it probably ought to remain and factor into the the explanation of their feelings about Dreadnoughts.

 

I also thought dreadnoughts could deep strike. You can't get to a fight much faster than landing on the enemy.

 

We don't like to talk about it.

 

The speed of drop pods make it that much more apparent just how slow our stumpy little legs make us.

 

I'll make certain to explain that they certainly didn't engage the entire warband. The force they combat is of roughly equal number to their own. That's a small but important detail that somehow didn't make it into the sidebar.

I'd explain it further, (there's a fair bit of further to explain, too) but I kind of need that battle to exist for the IT: Rift Lords (formerly Nightmare's Claws) which I will start work on properly after the Iron Gauntlet concludes. If I absolutely have to, I'll take it out, but then my IT is going to lose a keystone.

 

So long as you explain it and the reasons you give hang together, that's all that I ask of you.

 

On reflection I think most of my problems stem from avoiding total-from-the-ground-up rewrites. I suppose I'd better bite the bolter shell and take it from the top.

The other problem is, of course, that I can't really do the theme any heavier apart from calling the homeworld Moria and literally taking dwarf names out of Tolkien for the characters. Without reading the subsequent posts, not many people pick up on the Dwarvish theme. Unlike the first problem, I have no idea how to adress this issue.

 

Oh believe me, I know your pain.

 

The Exonerators just got a renaming and a total restart, though I'm keeping their themes intact and attempting to create the writeup anew so that my intentions are clearer and better organized. I'd also like to point out that I didn't so much take "dwarves" from the writeup as I did "subterranean smiths," which I suppose should have been a hint but didn't automatically make the association for me.

 

Oh, and because I didn't say it yet, thanks for reading. Your input is gratefully recieved, and even if I don't 100% agree with some of the points (dreadnoughts and axe training, mostly) I'll re-write those bits with your advice in mind anyway.

 

Don't mention it.

 

If your writeup comes together and makes it into the Librarium before any of mine do, then I'll have done my job.

 

In AD's defence, I think you're missing his intention to model the Stonebound after dwarves. If you keep that in mind, you'll find that a lot of the decisions he made about the chapter come into better focus. Some additional explaination may be in order in some places, but the "why?" is much more obvious.

 

You're right, I did miss his intention because I deliberately didn't read anyone else's commentary and the article itself didn't really scream "dwarf" at me. However, I shouldn't need to know what he's aiming for in order to take his theme from the writeup and would argue that a requirement of out-of-universe foreknowledge is a weakness, not an explanation. The job of an Index Astartes is to engage the reader and convey the author's chosen themes, which Ace has made a decent beginning on doing. However, if it isn't obvious withought additional information, then that isn't the fault of the reader.

 

Also, feral is probably a relative term. You seem to be picturing complete savages, stone age cultures such as early american indians or modern bushmen. I personally would consider Gauls or Celts feral, and they had both fortresses and smithing technology. And historically, the less advanced the culture the more they tend to revere the smith/toolmaker.

 

I would argue that the Gauls and Celts were tribal but fuedal, not feral, though the definition within the BRB seems to indicate that Games Workshop largely considers it a difference in possession of gunpowder. That seems silly and arbitrary to me, since you can have fuedal cultures who haven't ever heard of the stuff.