Pacific81 Posted February 1, 2010 Share Posted February 1, 2010 I've listed sources where appropriate. 1. Was Alpharius "killed" by Guilliman as the Ultramarines were racing to the seige of Terra or after the seige and the death of Horus had taken place? Yes, the battle is said to have taken place on Eskrador as the Ultramarines were racing back to Terra. The extract from the IA Alpha Legion article reads: Our great Lord and Primarch Roboute Guilliman himself strode forward, ignoring the melee around him, straight towards Alpharius. The two Primarch's stood before each other. They were equal in stature, both clad in shining power armour and each wielding a glittering power sword, but where one was noble the other was craven, where one was loyal the other was a betrayer. All other combat ceased as we watched them. There was a long pause, neither Primarch moving an inch, then both struck in an instant. Each sword made a single stroke and then both were till again. For a second, the two great men stood facing, before Alpharius slumped to the ground. But, the article questions whether it was actually Alpharius who was killed. The rest of the Ultramarines were defeated on the world and had to pound the planet from orbit. Knowing what we now know about the Alpha Legion from the book Legion, I would say it was pretty doubtful. Plus, there would always be the twin issue... A final note is that the Ultramarines have had their history during the Heresy re-worked by Collected Visions. The issue will be if this bit of background stays in at all, when we read the Calth series of books which are planned, and the inevitable sequel to Legion itself. Certainly, I think the depth that has now been allocated to them by Abnett's book means that there could be a potentially far more intriguing fate for Alpharius than 'stabbed by Gulliman'. 2. How long did it take the traitor legions to flee to the Eye of Terror, and did they reach it in any specific order The latest Chaos SM codex states that it took several years, the period being known as 'The Scouring'. The Imperium was almost exhausted in removing Chaos from all the worlds which had fallen to the Warmaster during the Heresy. Remember that the Heresy itself lasted for 7 years, from the Dropsite Massacre to the seige of Terra. 3. Was the Iron Cage battle between Iron Warriors & Imperial Fists before the Iron Warriors retreated to teh Eye of Terror or had they already entered it but returened for this fight? The IA article isn't specific. The only clue given is that it was after the Legions were to be 'sundered' (the 2nd founding) which must have happened after the Scouring and when Gulliman had laid down the Codex Astartes. The way the article is written, it basically mentioned that the Fists were appalled that the Iron Warriors could try and lay claim to a world even after their leader had been killed and the rebellion defeated. Hope that helps! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted February 1, 2010 Share Posted February 1, 2010 But, the article questions whether it was actually Alpharius who was killed. It is never specifically in question whether the person described in that account is Alpharius or not. It is the whole account of the Battle on Eskrador that is being in question. It is a personal account, allegedly recorded by an Ultramarine that was present at the battle. If that account is at all true, then it was indeed Alpharius who had been killed in the duel. Guilliman knew him from previous (more casual) encounters, the Ultramarines obtained the body after defeating the detachment of the Alpha Legion in that particular encounter, and then they took the time to burn the body. However, the record is questioned by members of teh Inquisition as well as representatives of the Ultramarines, so there is still the possibility that it was not actually recorded by an Ultramarine, but by a traitor in order to sow false information about the Alpha Legions fate and perhaps to discredit the Ultramarines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randian Posted February 1, 2010 Share Posted February 1, 2010 The way the article is written, it basically mentioned that the Fists were appalled that the Iron Warriors could try and lay claim to a world even after their leader had been killed and the rebellion defeated. Since Perturabo wasn't killed, which Iron Warriors leader is the article talking about? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted February 1, 2010 Share Posted February 1, 2010 The leader of the Heresy, Horus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fulgrimschampion Posted February 1, 2010 Author Share Posted February 1, 2010 On the Alpharius matter this would mean he would have been the second Primarch to die "if it was really him" or at least until they change the fluff. The only clue given is that it was after the Legions were to be 'sundered' (the 2nd founding) which must have happened after the Scouring and when Gulliman had laid down the Codex Astartes This would mean several things if this battle took place after the second founding that firstly Rogal Dorn and Guilliman were still alive after the Second Founding. Secondly that the Iron Warriors had already entered and returned from the Eye of Terra. And lastly that Perturabo had not yet ascended to deamonhood, as it is stated that "the Chaos Gods gifted Perturabo with deamonhood after his legion took over 400 geneseeds from the Imperial Fists legion in the Battle of the Iron Cage" Fulgrimschampion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Tyler Posted February 2, 2010 Share Posted February 2, 2010 This would mean several things if this battle took place after the second founding that firstly Rogal Dorn and Guilliman were still alive after the Second Founding. It is already established fact that Rogal Dorn was alive after the Second Founding, and I doubt that the Second Founding would ever have taken place if Roboute Guilliman weren't alive to force his brother Primarchs to split their Legions. ;) IIRC, Dorn survived for about 400 years after the Horus Heresy. I think this was listed in a 3rd edition timeline, either in the rulebook or CSM of that time. I'll pull those books out of boxes and find the exact reference. I believe that the same reference indicates that the Primarch that disappeared prior to Dorn (who was the last) was Corax, but I'm not at all certain about that. I'll do some more research and get back to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simonius Posted February 2, 2010 Share Posted February 2, 2010 I recall reading somewhere about the council of loyalist Primarchs after the Siege of Terra, this is the one where Guilliman puts forward his proposals for sundering the legions and the introduction of the Codex. I had always assumed that this was straight after the Siege but there are some inconsistencies (this is after all GW fluff!). At this meeting all the surviving loyalist Primarchs are present, Dorn, Guilliman, Russ, Corax, Vulkan, Khan and Johnson, and they take sides about splitting the legions. - Gotta pity the guys sent to represent the BA and IH in this company! Now logically this must be before Johnson returns to Caliban - as he "dies" there (remember not even the DA "know" he is buried in the Rock). Dorn does not accept the break up until after the Iron Cage - which is a bit later - so obviously the council didn't actually enforce any changes at this time, so Johnson at least must have been gone by the time splitting up the legions was actually introduced. Dorn must have led the IF for a fair time as his death is during the first(?) Black Crusade. Guilliman, is I think the last survivor at about 100 years after the end of Scouring. I always thought that the Alpharius incident (if it happened) was well after the Heresy/Scouring - but happy to be corrected if not the case. Russ also appears to have led the Wolves for a while after the Heresy, we generally know the circumstances of how he left, but not when exactly - but I'm assuming before G above. Corax went quite quickly but not straight away. After Istvaan he had to get together with the remnants of his Legion and do all the experimental stuff. He was at the council so didn't go until after the Siege. But perhaps rapidly after that as he saw the results of his experiments fail. Vulkan was also supposedly at the council, he reputedly changed his mind about splitting the legions - at first against but then sided with G before the end. He must have gone back to rebuild the Sallies, but I don't know where or when he disappeared. Khan stuck around for a while before going off chasing DE down the webway, but again no reliable timeline for when this happened. So with speculation and assumptions - loss of Primarchs runs as follows: Legion 2 and 11 Primarchs disappeared first then Ferrus Mannus - dead Sanguinius - dead Horus - dead Night Haunter and/or Alpharius - dead or not The Lion - dead to the world Corax - disappeared Russ - disappeared Khan - disappeared Vulkan - disappeared Dorn - dead Guilliman - mortally wounded in stasis All the other traitors Primarchs are alive (but not necessarily well!) as daemon princes in the Eye, except possibly Alpharius/Omegon who might be around somewhere. They ascended as follows (I think): Fulgrim - although he was actually possesed by another daemon Magnus - as the Wolves attacked Mortarion - in the warp on the way to Terra Angron - ? Perturabo - after the Iron Cage Lorgar - last because he least needed it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted February 2, 2010 Share Posted February 2, 2010 I don't remember Jonson weighing in on the Codex Astartes dispute. The Index Astartes articles only mention Khan and Corax siding with Guilliman and Russ and Vulkan supporting Dorn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simonius Posted February 2, 2010 Share Posted February 2, 2010 You could be right Legatus, I've seen several versions of this council meeting, but I'm sure I remember reading about the Lion in one of them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fulgrimschampion Posted February 2, 2010 Author Share Posted February 2, 2010 Was the burning of Prospero before or after the Istvaan V incident, im presuming it must have been as the Emperor believed it was Magnus who was the traitor, though if the Istvaan incident had occoured he would of know it was Horus? Also it was Horus who told the wolves to burn prospero not ust accost Magnus meaning they must have obeyed him believing him to be loyal... Fulgrimschampion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferrata Posted February 2, 2010 Share Posted February 2, 2010 It a topic a long long time ago, Hvrat came up with the follow dates for the Primarchs: 007.M31 - Ferrus Manus lost during Istvann V 014.M31 - Sanguinius dies at the hands of Horus, Horus killed by the Emperor 014-021.M31 - Lion El'Jonson is taken by the watchers, Alpaharius alegedly killed by Guiliman and Konrad alegedly killed by an assasin 084.M31 - Jagathai Khan chases after Eldar into the webway 121.M31 - Guilliman placed into stasis 211.M31 - Russ goes away 770-780.M31 - Corax goes away 781.M31 - Dorn is killed on a chaos ship 400.M32 - Last Primarch disapears and since only Vulkan is left it should be him How much is based on guesswork, and where the sources are for the others I do not know, but I think the dates should be around the right time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fulgrimschampion Posted February 2, 2010 Author Share Posted February 2, 2010 Alright soo from the Info gained soo far this is what im thinking.... Ferrus Mannus - Killed during the dropside massacre on Isstvan V Magnus the Red - Asended to Deamon Prince (either during the battle of Prospero or as they escaped into the warp, ) Mortarian - Ascended to rank of deamon prince as Dath Guard were in the warp (any sources for this??, other sources say he ascended after built a plague plant that nurgle was soo happy with he gifted him with ascention) Alpharius - Killed by Guilliman as the Alpha Legion attempted to waylay the Ultras on their way to Terra Sanguinius - Dies by the hands of Horus during seige of Terra Horus - Killed by the Emperor at the seige of Terra Lion el Johnson - Mortally wounded on return to Caliban after Heresey where civil war had errupted [This is where it all gets a bit messy, not sure of the order] Night Haunter - Lets himself be killed Kahn - Chased by Dark Eldar into the Webways/Warp Corax - Believed to have dissapeared just before second founding [second Founding - we can be pretty sure Guilliman and Dorn were alive to witnesss this being the architects and Guilliman settind out the Codex] [battle of the Iron Cage] Perturabo - asended to deamon prince for his action during Iron Cage battle Guilliman - Placed in stasis after woundein by Fulgrim ( was fulgrim a deamon prince at this time?) Dorn - last primarch to die during a black crusade that leaves...... Fulgrim, Angorn, Russ, Vulkan and Lorgar to fit into the list and further debate about theese placings please feel free...... Fulgrimschampion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Locmac Posted February 2, 2010 Share Posted February 2, 2010 Fulgrim was a Demon prince when he killed Guillimam, and I can't find mine but I swear the new Wolves dex has the date of the first great hunt, so if anyone can confirm that we'd know when Russ left (kinda). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KP13 Posted February 3, 2010 Share Posted February 3, 2010 But, the article questions whether it was actually Alpharius who was killed. It is never specifically in question whether the person described in that account is Alpharius or not. It is the whole account of the Battle on Eskrador that is being in question. It is a personal account, allegedly recorded by an Ultramarine that was present at the battle. If that account is at all true, then it was indeed Alpharius who had been killed in the duel. Guilliman knew him from previous (more casual) encounters, the Ultramarines obtained the body after defeating the detachment of the Alpha Legion in that particular encounter, and then they took the time to burn the body. However, the record is questioned by members of teh Inquisition as well as representatives of the Ultramarines, so there is still the possibility that it was not actually recorded by an Ultramarine, but by a traitor in order to sow false information about the Alpha Legions fate and perhaps to discredit the Ultramarines. It is pretty apparent (well, to me it is!) that Alpharius was NOT killed on Eskrador. The Ultramarines themselves have no record of this taking place! And the Inquisitor who reported all of this info? Later revealed to be an operative of the Legion itself. And all of THIS was BEFORE "Legion" was even a twinkle in Dan's eye... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted February 3, 2010 Share Posted February 3, 2010 On the plus side, it means the Ultramarines were not actually completely dumbfounded and helpless because an opponent employed guerilla tactics. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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