why powerfists?

[angry man]

i really cant undersatnd why people insist on recomending for tactical squads to take a powerfist. yeah, ok in some games you might get assualted by a MC/dread, but really, if we're really honest with ourselves, that should never happen. in fact IMO tactical squads should never really get out of their rhino, let alone be making assault. either way, 25pts per sqd is a fairly steep price for a contingency plan, no? instead of upgrading 2 powerfists would it not be more sensible to take a MM attack bike to deal with the big, slow, i can move 6" a turn dreadnought?

 

whats your take?

 

AM

[Grey Mage]

i really cant undersatnd why people insist on recomending for tactical squads to take a powerfist. yeah, ok in some games you might get assualted by a MC/dread, but really, if we're really honest with ourselves, that should never happen. in fact IMO tactical squads should never really get out of their rhino, let alone be making assault. either way, 25pts per sqd is a fairly steep price for a contingency plan, no? instead of upgrading 2 powerfists would it not be more sensible to take a MM attack bike to deal with the big, slow, i can move 6" a turn dreadnought?

 

whats your take?

 

AM

You know why orcs are the pinacle of tactical genius?

 

Because they have the ONLY plan in the history of the galaxy to survive contact with the enemy 100% intact.

 

And that is "Find im and hit him".

 

Thats why I take a PF on most of my squads... just in case. Its not a just in case I should allow to happen if I can help it, but frankly my opponent will be trying for it to happen- I cant win that contest all the time.

 

Then you add in the joy of ripping out a tanks radiator, its decency at killing MEQ infantry, and some of the cool bitz I have for them... and it becomes an excellant option.

 

Do I feel they are required? No... but they are certainly far from a suboptimal choice. Especially with the new nidz out......

[minigun762]

Its because Power Fists are a highly flexible weapon whereas something like a Power Weapon is much more focused.

Power Fists give what is basically an anti-infantry squad a weapon to handle armor, walkers, MCs, assault specialists and ICs.

 

Its true you might not want them on every squad but its rarely a bad idea to include them. As with everything you have to look at what you could be buying with those points and the rest of the army as a whole.

[Jackelope King]

Why power fists?

 

... because people still haven't quite figured out that for just 10 points more, you get a Rhino ;)

 

A Rhino is far better insurance against both shooting and assault. Not only can you run away from those foot-slogging Orks, and the Dreads, and MCs of the world, but you're basically immune to anti-infantry fire.

[minigun762]

Why power fists?

 

... because people still haven't quite figured out that for just 10 points more, you get a Rhino ;)

 

A Rhino is far better insurance against both shooting and assault. Not only can you run away from those foot-slogging Orks, and the Dreads, and MCs of the world, but you're basically immune to anti-infantry fire.

 

I'd ask the question why you aren't buying both but then again us Traitors love our fancy gloves and sweet rides.

[Jackelope King]

If I could just take them for style points, every single model in my army would get one. I love the way power fists look.

 

But when it comes down to equiping my usual 3+ tactical squads, I look at what else 75 points can buy me and it's usually a no-brainer.

[greatcrusade08]

Alot of people fail to take into account their opponents plans.. like playing ches if you cant factor your opponents moves and prepare accordingly then you deserve to lose and lose badly.

 

Taking a fist is only ten points more than a PW and it keeps you safer from anything over T4 and dreads, plus wounding on 2's is brilliant ;)

Just becuase you want to keep them out of combat doesnt mean your opponent will let you have your own way, the fist is insurance

[Koremu]

The Power Fist enables you to deal with things that your Tactical Squad would otherwise be unable to handle.

 

Also, I dispute your characterisation of how Tacticals should be used. You use Tactical Squads to throw a spanner in the enemies plan. They are "acceptably" good at everything, and thus can take (point-for-point) most specialist units in the game provided you use them to target the enemy units weaknesses.

 

The UR-example is of course Eldar Aspect Warriors. Point-for-point, Aspect Warriors will always win at their own game, but Tactical Marines will always win at any other game.

 

Don't play the enemies game.

[angry man]

If I could just take them for style points, every single model in my army would get one. I love the way power fists look.

 

But when it comes down to equiping my usual 3+ tactical squads, I look at what else 75 points can buy me and it's usually a no-brainer.

exactly the way i think

 

 

Alot of people fail to take into account their opponents plans.. like playing ches if you cant factor your opponents moves and prepare accordingly then you deserve to lose and lose badly.

 

Taking a fist is only ten points more than a PW and it keeps you safer from anything over T4 and dreads, plus wounding on 2's is brilliant ;)

Just becuase you want to keep them out of combat doesnt mean your opponent will let you have your own way, the fist is insurance

i just feel that a rhino offers the flexibility, speed and manouverability to escape combat with the likes of dreads and MCs.

 

if my opponent can outshoot me, the odds are, more than likely, that they dont have large numbers of things i should worry about in combat eg. TAU- best cc unit? kroot = tarpit unit. ELDAR- banshees/clowns = shot to ribbons if footslogging, have to wait a turn and rely on a fortuned sepent turbo cover save, S3/T3. the list goes on. if this is the case then my tacts should be able either SLOW them enough for other units to incapacitate them, 'HIDE' from them in their rhino and effectively ignore them or if needs really must be, disembark and SHRED them with bolter fire or at least massively REDUCE numbers so i dont need the fist anyway.

 

if my opponent has lots of cc based units/MCs/dreads, then the odds are they can outshoot/outmanouver me. in this scenario, i wouldnt want to be in combat anyway, fist or no, but the extra points will serve me well as i attempt to make the storm more weatherable and take out the biggest/most immediate threats with adequate and sensible target priority decisions

 

and finally, and heaven forbid this ever happen, i fight another marine army :down: , then i for sure wont be getting charged by dreads, not least because they're so damn slow

 

and to finish, some extremely basic mathhammer (how i hate this).

a vet sgt with a fist gets 2 attacks and hits most things on 4+

 

2attacks

hits 50% = 1 hit

wounds 5/6 (about 82%ish) = an 82%(ish) chance of causing 1 wound.

 

so, we wont be in combat for 6 turns, and even if we are we're not garuanteed a kill (odds-wise) a wound in each turn.

 

pay 25pts for something you dont want to use, shouldnt need to use and if you do end up using it cant mathematically garuantee you a wound??? no thanks. id sooner have something else (HF/MM speeder/dakka pred/MM AB/a few more termies are a few options that spring to mind)

 

AM

 

EDIT:

The Power Fist enables you to deal with things that your Tactical Squad would otherwise be unable to handle.

 

Also, I dispute your characterisation of how Tacticals should be used. You use Tactical Squads to throw a spanner in the enemies plan. They are "acceptably" good at everything, and thus can take (point-for-point) most specialist units in the game provided you use them to target the enemy units weaknesses.

 

The UR-example is of course Eldar Aspect Warriors. Point-for-point, Aspect Warriors will always win at their own game, but Tactical Marines will always win at any other game.

 

Don't play the enemies game.

most eldar aspects suck at their own game. they have too many weaknesses that outweigh what is supposed to make them good at their own game.

 

also, marines shouldnt be throwing spanners. you should be figuring out the enemy plan, avoiding it and focussing on your own plan. if you try to counter an enemies plan with your own unit then you take a tangent from your own plan. the only spanner throwers should be units that you buy to throw spanners. 200pt marine units are not they

[Sternguard sergeant McColl]

If you have the extraordinary ability to avoid combat, then isn't a little unfair to assume your opponent doesn't have the extraordinary ability to catch you in it?

[minigun762]

If you have the extraordinary ability to avoid combat, then isn't a little unfair to assume your opponent doesn't have the extraordinary ability to catch you in it?

 

I was going to make a similar remark. You have to trust that your opponent is going to aim for where you're weakest. For example, a Tac Squad without a Power Fist/Weapon is barely a speedbump against a Dread or MC or squad of Berserkers but if you factor in that bonus weapon, suddenly you become more of a threat and force your opponent to make a harder decision about where to commit his/her forces.

[Koremu]

The Power Fist enables you to deal with things that your Tactical Squad would otherwise be unable to handle.

 

Also, I dispute your characterisation of how Tacticals should be used. You use Tactical Squads to throw a spanner in the enemies plan. They are "acceptably" good at everything, and thus can take (point-for-point) most specialist units in the game provided you use them to target the enemy units weaknesses.

 

The UR-example is of course Eldar Aspect Warriors. Point-for-point, Aspect Warriors will always win at their own game, but Tactical Marines will always win at any other game.

 

Don't play the enemies game.

most eldar aspects suck at their own game. they have too many weaknesses that outweigh what is supposed to make them good at their own game.

 

also, marines shouldnt be throwing spanners. you should be figuring out the enemy plan, avoiding it and focussing on your own plan. if you try to counter an enemies plan with your own unit then you take a tangent from your own plan. the only spanner throwers should be units that you buy to throw spanners. 200pt marine units are not they

Actually, that's exactly what I take Tactical Squads for. I budget 250 points (including Transport) for a unit which, while not supreme at anything, will usually handle whatever task I assign to it with a reasonable degree of aptitude. If you wish to think of it so, my plan for the Tactical Squad is to be a spanner :down:

[angry man]

If you have the extraordinary ability to avoid combat, then isn't a little unfair to assume your opponent doesn't have the extraordinary ability to catch you in it?

 

I was going to make a similar remark. You have to trust that your opponent is going to aim for where you're weakest. For example, a Tac Squad without a Power Fist/Weapon is barely a speedbump against a Dread or MC or squad of Berserkers but if you factor in that bonus weapon, suddenly you become more of a threat and force your opponent to make a harder decision about where to commit his/her forces.

the maths shows that a fist shouldnt deter a unit of bezerkers - "oh no we might lose one to a fist. oh yeh... we dont care. we charge and we have I5/S5.

and as for dreads, well, melta should have dealt with them already. especially as the tact squads MM gets at least 2 turns of shooting in before it could charge

 

and if a unit is aiming for my tact squad, then surely an adequate 'spanner' would be to move so that the 'chasing' unit moves to where i want them?

 

at the end of the day its still 25pts per squad for a contingency. for me thats a lot of points

 

AM

[Jackelope King]

If you have the extraordinary ability to avoid combat, then isn't a little unfair to assume your opponent doesn't have the extraordinary ability to catch you in it?

Not at all. It's still difficult for most close-combat specialists to effectively close with a mech'd up Tactical Squad. There are more of them with every Codex now, of course (Thunderwolf Cavalry with a single Thunder Hammer model in the squad, for instance, will close with and crack open a Rhino in short order, and there are quite a few Tyranid broods out there which can reliably run up to and rip open a tank), but it's still not very common. Shooting is still by far the preferred method of opening up transports, which assault units tend to lack. But let's assume, for a moment, that you've been outmaneuvered by a clever opponent, and now your mech'd up Tactical Squad is going to get assaulted (whether because he's cut you off at an angle or your Marines are simply in a place you can't fall back from). What happens?

 

Opponent's Turn: Your Rhino gets charged. If you moved 12" last turn, the opponent needs a 6 to hit, and only enemy models with a S higher than 4 have any chance of cracking your transport open. If you only moved 6", then they still need a 4+, which means most assault specialists are going to need to bring a large number of attacks to crack open your transport.

Your Turn: If you didn't get Stunned, Immobilized, or Wrecked, you drive away and go "neener neener neener". If you got stunned or immobilized, you can just sit pretty, and if you got immobilized, take a few shots out of the top hatch at the enemy. I like to think of this as a game of "whack-a-mole", only where the moles carry missile launchers and flame-throwers. And if your transport did get wrecked, fire with everything and see if you can perforate the enemy a little bit. Tacticals are on the table to score in objective missions and define your zones of control... anything else they do is a bonus.

Opponent's Next Turn: If your opponent managed to crack open your transport, now he gets to charge you. Time to do what Tactical Marines do best in close combat: suck and die. You lose, auto-fail your leadership check with Combat Tactics and fall back, auto-rallying with ATSKNF.

Your Next Turn: Everyone who's left shoots everything again.

 

Repeat this ad nauseum.

 

Tactical Squads, especially once mech'd up, are a pain to deal with, and if the enemy is wasting 2+ turns dealing with my Marines, then more of my threats will have time to blow his models off the table. Alternatively, a wise enemy might try to devote some firepower to cracking open the Rhino for same-turn assault. Without high-S or AP1 shots, this still takes some doing, even against a measly Rhino. A dedicated-enough concentation of fire will certainly (and reliably) do it, and good enough close combat specialists can probably even wipe your Tactical Squad out in the same turn, but the amount of resources your opponent will be expending to deal with your one Tactical Squad are disproportionaly large, most likely.

 

And what would a power fist add? A slightly-worse-than-50% chance of dealing one extra wound when you get charged. And what would a power fist cost you? Well, passing on three power fists will almost buy you another Dakka Predator, or a HF/MM Speeder with points to spare.

 

Another scenario is that your Marines face a unit they want to assault, such as non-close-combat Eldar of various flavors, Tau, or Imperial Guard. Pro-tip: you don't need a power fist to smear their puny carcasses. They die just fine to power-armored boots, pistol-whipping, and acidic spit.

 

The final scenario is fighting another Tactical Squad (or traitor equivalent). The guys with the fist will win in the long run, sure. But if you're relying on Tactical Squads with power fists to deal with your opponent's Tactical Squads, I think you seriously need to rethink your approach. There are other options in the Marine Codex that kill marines much more efficiently.

[minigun762]

Its interesting because I'm noticing a trend.

Those who think that Tac Squads = suck, are not in favor of "wasting" more points on them by buying Power Fists and those who like Tac squads believe that the Power Fist has alot to offer.

 

It sounds like it might come down to playstyle (like most things do) and the level of attention you want to put towards your Tactical Squads.

 

Personally, I would find myself in the same boat as Koremu. Tactical squads make great multi-taskers/generalists and the Power Fist just enhances that role.

[GreatEscape_13]

Its interesting because I'm noticing a trend.

Those who think that Tac Squads = suck, are not in favor of "wasting" more points on them by buying Power Fists and those who like Tac squads believe that the Power Fist has alot to offer.

 

Absolutely. I find my tacticals to be the backbone of my force, even more so now that we've run a couple of the Battle Missions from the store copy at our LGS. The ability to do lots of tasks, confront every foe, and just plain be a rock-solid core is enhanced with power fists.

 

Plus, being Crimson Fists, it just looks cooler to have power fists everywhere (grumble grumble why can't the Master of the Forge have one grumble grumble).

 

Cheers.

[Giga]

Its because Power Fists are a highly flexible weapon whereas something like a Power Weapon is much more focused.

Power Fists give what is basically an anti-infantry squad a weapon to handle armor, walkers, MCs, assault specialists and ICs.

 

Its true you might not want them on every squad but its rarely a bad idea to include them. As with everything you have to look at what you could be buying with those points and the rest of the army as a whole.

This.

 

It's particularly true of forward element tactical squads, big sternguard/vanguard squads, big bike units, and command squads.

 

High str armor-ignoring hits are extremely useful, simply because they make a squad genuinely capable of overcoming stuff they'd been powerless to do anything to earlier.

[Grey Mage]

If you have the extraordinary ability to avoid combat, then isn't a little unfair to assume your opponent doesn't have the extraordinary ability to catch you in it?

 

I was going to make a similar remark. You have to trust that your opponent is going to aim for where you're weakest. For example, a Tac Squad without a Power Fist/Weapon is barely a speedbump against a Dread or MC or squad of Berserkers but if you factor in that bonus weapon, suddenly you become more of a threat and force your opponent to make a harder decision about where to commit his/her forces.

the maths shows that a fist shouldnt deter a unit of bezerkers - "oh no we might lose one to a fist. oh yeh... we dont care. we charge and we have I5/S5.

and as for dreads, well, melta should have dealt with them already. especially as the tact squads MM gets at least 2 turns of shooting in before it could charge

 

and if a unit is aiming for my tact squad, then surely an adequate 'spanner' would be to move so that the 'chasing' unit moves to where i want them?

 

at the end of the day its still 25pts per squad for a contingency. for me thats a lot of points

 

AM

Say that to a Mawloc.

I encourage you to try that on an outflanking biker squad.

Or a winged hive tyrant.

Chaos Daemon Prince?

Thunderwolf Cavalry?

Nob Bikerz?

Shrike?

 

Just to throw out a half dozen examples of units that can reliably get into assault on a standard table *IE one with 25% cover as reccommended by GW* without getting more than once chance to be shot at if your lucky. Theres a reason tau havent been doing so hot this edition.

 

The point I suppose is that this isnt a "contingency plan" its a plan. Not if but when the enemy assaults you with something you cant handle you now have a significantly higher ability to kill it. When that DPing tac squad gets assaulted, or needs to assault a tank, they have the power to do something useful. When your opponents 200pt HQ takes out his points in tactical squad, atleast the last guy and his powerfist wielding buddy can make him pay for it.

 

God forbid that you should ever need to to take down a wraithlord to win a game, and find that after your MM and MG have shot at it for three turns that youll need to assault it to keep from having it deny you the objective?

 

If you dont think tactical squads are worth their points, and more to the point if you dont find them useful at all, you should probly play a different army.

 

But then, this isnt just about tactical squads is it? Lets look at a couple other ones:

 

Scouts

~ In a storm? Allow me to rip out that warmachines radiator.

~ 10 of us in a LR witha chappy is the cheapest assault squad youll ever get, and look now we can hurt anything in the game.

~ In a sniper squad? That drop podding dreadnaught would have destroyed the entire squad turn 2 with only one shot at a missile launcher taking it out... now I can make another target more appealing, or perhaps bait?

 

Bikes

~ Agressive forward positions where bikes will often find themselves leave them open to assaults, with the number of heavy hitting 13"+ assaults out there a powerfist means never having to say "if I shoot them will it cost me this squad?"

~ Allows you to tie up an enemy heavy hitting assault squad allowing your heavy weapons, dreads, etc to continue their jobs with less molestation... and still be effective at the role of killing said squad.

~ Again allows you to better destroy heavy tanks in CC, with a unit that is incredibly likely to get there.

 

Thats just possible core choices too...

 

Assault Squad? Your going to be in assault, what could be better than increasing your strength while ignoring armor saves? Not all opponents are going to be hormagaunts, and if they were a PW would be to expensive anyways.

 

Sterngaurd? Your beefiest shooting infantry is likely a prime target for assault... and your not going to put in a deterrent? I dont like feeding the enemy 300pt units without a fight.

 

etc etc etc.

[angry man]

Its interesting because I'm noticing a trend.

Those who think that Tac Squads = suck, are not in favor of "wasting" more points on them by buying Power Fists and those who like Tac squads believe that the Power Fist has alot to offer.

on the contrary, i currently run 3 10man tac sqds w/MM/flamer in a rhino. for my 205pts i get a a 10man squad, temporarily (at least) invulnerably to fire form weapons with a str of 5/6 or less. it capable of dealing with armour and/or horde (of any form, including MEQ). once the 3 squads are parked up in the general md-field area, 1/2 to 2/3s of the board becomes a danger zone to any armoured unit/mech/unit without transport. This is my tactical squads role, and it is why i value them so highly. In fact, i value them so highly, i have no intention of letting them get bogged down in combat. i dont believe tactical squads suck, i just believe that they should be, and are, capable of fulfilling a staple part of a battle plan without a fist. my contingency is the dakka pred/speeder i field instead.

 

and if a wanted speed bump units id play guard. and if you insist on speed bumbing with marines then why spend 25points on a unit you have designed to die?

 

AM

[angry man]

excuse the douple post but i got a little nijad and havea strong urge to respond to this

If you have the extraordinary ability to avoid combat, then isn't a little unfair to assume your opponent doesn't have the extraordinary ability to catch you in it?

 

I was going to make a similar remark. You have to trust that your opponent is going to aim for where you're weakest. For example, a Tac Squad without a Power Fist/Weapon is barely a speedbump against a Dread or MC or squad of Berserkers but if you factor in that bonus weapon, suddenly you become more of a threat and force your opponent to make a harder decision about where to commit his/her forces.

the maths shows that a fist shouldnt deter a unit of bezerkers - "oh no we might lose one to a fist. oh yeh... we dont care. we charge and we have I5/S5.

and as for dreads, well, melta should have dealt with them already. especially as the tact squads MM gets at least 2 turns of shooting in before it could charge

 

and if a unit is aiming for my tact squad, then surely an adequate 'spanner' would be to move so that the 'chasing' unit moves to where i want them?

 

at the end of the day its still 25pts per squad for a contingency. for me thats a lot of points

 

AM

Say that to a Mawloc.

I encourage you to try that on an outflanking biker squad.

Or a winged hive tyrant.

Chaos Daemon Prince?

Thunderwolf Cavalry?

Nob Bikerz?

Shrike?

if a nid player is relying on reserves, i sure as hell hope hes got 2 tyrants, otherwise those reserves are as reliable as my grandma pilotting a helicopter. in which case he just lost a lot of points. more power to me

chaos has one of the most subpar codexs going. whats the prince doing once he cc'd my rhino? oh yeh getting shot

TWC=best unit in the game. hard as hell to kill. fist aint making a difference anyway. but then whats that? angry man knows this already?? hes gna refuse flank the TWC?? woops, looks like he bought himself some time to shoot

nob bikers?? didnt he just do that to the TWC?

shrike?? hahaha

 

Just to throw out a half dozen examples of units that can reliably get into assault on a standard table *IE one with 25% cover as reccommended by GW* without getting more than once chance to be shot at if your lucky. Theres a reason tau havent been doing so hot this edition.

says who? theres no reason tau cant make a fist of things. theres no reason tau cant beat the living :cuss out of marines. they just need playing right

 

The point I suppose is that this isnt a "contingency plan" its a plan. Not if but when the enemy assaults you with something you cant handle you now have a significantly higher ability to kill it.

not significantly higher though is it. we did the maths.

 

When that DPing tac squad gets assaulted, or needs to assault a tank, they have the power to do something useful. When your opponents 200pt HQ takes out his points in tactical squad, atleast the last guy and his powerfist wielding buddy can make him pay for it.

people drop pod tactical squads?? thats their own fault then really.

 

God forbid that you should ever need to to take down a wraithlord to win a game, and find that after your MM and MG have shot at it for three turns that youll need to assault it to keep from having it deny you the objective?

people run wraithlords?? so very very bad. if theyre running that, then at least theyre noot running falcons/prisms. do you hink that my army consists purely of 3 205pt tact sqds? silly billy. i have other things too. things that go "big boom" and "bang2 and "pop2 and shooty shoot wraithlords so they dont see the end of the game on their big spindly "i dont really want a cover save" legs

 

If you dont think tactical squads are worth their points, and more to the point if you dont find them useful at all, you should probly play a different army.

now your making assumptions. and you should know that to assume is to make an ASS out of U and ME. i never once said i dont rate tacts. in fact if you read my previous post you'll see i do. and if you think that tactical squads need to be suped up to deal with absolutely everything, then you clarly have no idea about synergy/redundany or army building, you should probably play a different game system

 

But then, this isnt just about tactical squads is it? Lets look at a couple other ones:

 

Scouts

~ In a storm? Allow me to rip out that warmachines radiator.

~ 10 of us in a LR witha chappy is the cheapest assault squad youll ever get, and look now we can hurt anything in the game.

~ In a sniper squad? That drop podding dreadnaught would have destroyed the entire squad turn 2 with only one shot at a missile launcher taking it out... now I can make another target more appealing, or perhaps bait?

heehee. BS3 in C:SM makes the baby emperor cry. scouts lost all worth when they got nerfed. want to put scouts in a LR? go for it. watch as i destroy the raider and ignore the scouts for a bit

 

Bikes

~ Agressive forward positions where bikes will often find themselves leave them open to assaults, with the number of heavy hitting 13"+ assaults out there a powerfist means never having to say "if I shoot them will it cost me this squad?"

~ Allows you to tie up an enemy heavy hitting assault squad allowing your heavy weapons, dreads, etc to continue their jobs with less molestation... and still be effective at the role of killing said squad.

~ Again allows you to better destroy heavy tanks in CC, with a unit that is incredibly likely to get there.

you want ot use your squad of 25pts a model bikes to tie me up? be my guest.

tanks? why dont you have 2 melta guns and a MM attack bike?

plus i never actually debated the worth of a fist on a bike sqd... only tacticals. there you go assuming again...

 

Thats just possible core choices too...

 

Assault Squad? Your going to be in assault, what could be better than increasing your strength while ignoring armor saves? Not all opponents are going to be hormagaunts, and if they were a PW would be to expensive anyways.

if your not running 2 of these i laugh at you. if you are, then i expect to see a fist, but at the same time wonder why you havnt taken speeders of bikes in those FA slots? i never disputed fists on assault sqds

 

Sterngaurd? Your beefiest shooting infantry is likely a prime target for assault... and your not going to put in a deterrent? I dont like feeding the enemy 300pt units without a fight.

 

etc etc etc.

again i didnt dipute this. but again, why havent you taken dreads/termies. and why the hell does it cost so much??

if they were in a rhino, and they should have been, that means that your opponent either has to get within 6", destroy the vehicle and then charge (not likely i dont think, not from a cc threat). or they destroy the rhino, you get out and promptly feed the unit 20 (judging by the pts you said they spent) hellfire rounds to the face. much less of a threat that way.

 

 

i agree, fists have their places. all i said in my original post is that i dont believe that tactical squads are one of them.

if you want to rant, make sure its relevant please :P

 

AM

[spartan249]

You show an opening, your opponent is going to flood that opening with every one of your worst nightmares.

 

25 points each tac squad is a very small price to pay to close that opening and require your opponent to actually think about how to use his army. Those monster ICs and dreads are going to laugh at your paltry krak grenades and one melta shot as they rip apart one of the vital components to your army without incident. Having a small chance of IKing that IC or wrecking that dread/defiler is much better than having no chance at all, and your opponent knows it.

 

They're technically an option, and you can sometimes pass by without them if your opposition is suitably weak. However, if your opponent knows what he's doing and sends the correct threat to your tac squads, you want to be ready and able to hit back and cause some damage yourself rather than sit there and chip his paint job while he wrecks your troops.

 

Yeah, having counter CC units close by helps, but if they're there, than an opening in your opponent's formation is being ignored. SMs are not cheap enough to buy one unit for every conceivable battlefield role. You have to give them multiple roles and be ready for every one of your units to be in a situation that they are not optimal for. A Power Fist isn't much, but it's cheap for what it can do should the crap hit the fan.

[Brother-Chaplain Gaius]

I give 2/3 of my tacs a fist. its come in handy every game and it discourages assaults. I'm not getting rid of them killed too many things with them. i do hoever take a power weapon and a plasma pistol on my last squad.

[Grey Mage]

i agree, fists have their places. all i said in my original post is that i dont believe that tactical squads are one of them.

if you want to rant, make sure its relevant please :)

 

AM

All I can say is that your metagame is entirely different than mine, and you seem entirely to self assured. You cant refuse a flank if your setting up second... unless your opponent is a moron, etc etc. We could go back and forth all day because the joy of 40k is that frankly for everything there is a counter.

 

Powerfists are one of those counters, but dont use them if you dont want to... and if your ever going to montana send me a PM so we can settle this like gentlemen- on the field ;).

[Brother-Chaplain Gaius]

A challenge has been issued, in epic space wolves fashion no less. Isn't there some program on here(B&C forum) that allows players to have an actual 40k simulation online or something like that?

[greatcrusade08]

cool, i still owe grey mage a game with my scouts ;)

 

I agree though we all look at things differently, we may diagree with each others opinions but yours isnt worth more than mine or anyones elses...

I run my tacs with both fist and rhino, the rhino being the first upgrade i buy.