why powerfists?

[greatcrusade08]

ive al;ways found that flexibility is the key to my winning games, if tac squads have fists they are more flexible..

[Jackelope King]

Flexibility is great. But games are won or lost based on how many threats you can cram down your opponent's throat. All else being equal, the army with more threats wins. Flexibility can help, but you have to consider the cost you pay for what flexibility you gain.

[Koremu]

A Power Fist is a threat to everything.

[Jackelope King]

A Power Fist is a threat to everything.

Yes, but a Tactical Squad still isn't. One extra Hail Mary pass in your squad isn't reliable enough.

[Koremu]

A Power Fist is a threat to everything.

Yes, but a Tactical Squad still isn't. One extra Hail Mary pass in your squad isn't reliable enough.

3 Attacks with 9 spare wounds usually does the job, in my experience.

[Jackelope King]

Against what? And with what supporting elements? And with what other threats present? I don't deny that it can be helpful, but it's rarely the best option (roughly one and a half S8 unsaveable wounds are nice, but why have a Tactical Squad deliver them?). If it is your best option, it's likely to be a Hail Mary pass ("I need to kill those Plague Marines on that objective or I lose!"), and your points are probably better spent building reliability into your list by other means.

 

Flexibility does not necessarily grant reliability.

[Koremu]

No, generally I find that you can throw Tactical Marines into pretty much any circumstances, provide them with appropriate support, and they'll do a decent enough job.

 

The fist expands their range of targets, and I like that enough that I almost always take a Fist for at least one Tactical Squad. Usually the Tactical Squad that's intended to be working without support from any other units that are armed with a Fist. So if I'm expecting my Tactical Squad to Objective Hold and provide Infantry Support/Security for a Fire Support Position (say a Dread or a Whirlwind), the Fist is a potent tool because it offers the Tactical Squad and by extension the greater unit to which it belongs a much broader operational profile.

 

On the other hand, I rarely give a Power Fist to the Tactical Squad I intend to follow my heavy-hitter unit with. If they are operating with a unit such as Vanguard, a Captain and Command Squad or an Assault Squad, there's already enough Fist-based death about not to have to add to it. I add Combi weapons instead.

 

In each case here the Tactical Squads are armed to appropriately support the units they are operating with. The Power Fist is not a "hail mary" item - it's a calculated addition to the abilities of the Squad and the greater army to achieve a purpose.

[Arkios]

It all has to do with how you build your list. My personal play style puts my Tactical squads in the action. I make use of them as a fighting force instead of just objective holders, and I make sure that they are up to the challenge. 9 times out of 10 I usually have my tactical squads break down into combat squads (I build my lists around the tactic, to hell with the kill points if I can kill more of the enemy) and run them in Razorbacks with Assault Cannons (yeah yeah "omg assault cannons are to expensive!" I know, but it works well for me and you cant argue with the results). This along with some terminators or other elite units form the Hammer of my army.

 

My Tactical combat squads armed with a special weapon, and a sarge with a Bolter and Fist (sometimes a combi-melta if i have spare points) support each other as they advance. They will hop out of their Razorbacks when a good opportunity to rapid fire or assault presents itself. A single 5 man unit with a fist doesn't seem like a very scary assault unit until you have a unit of your's charged by 2 or 3 of my combat squads at once after they've taken a barrage of assault cannon fire or a hit from a thunderfire cannon. I have quickly taken down many a wounded MC or MEQ squad this way. Obviously, I am not charging tooled up super assault units with them.

 

Yes, there are better units such as assault terminators that can do the job... But if I have already spent 250 points on a compulsory Tactical squad, why not spend just 10% more and put the unit to work instead of doing nothing with that Tactical squad and spending 100% more to buy another unit to fill that role.

 

IMO, anyone who says that all Tactical squads do in assault is "suck and die" and that they should never be in assault are not using their tactical squads right. If you assault a mob of 30 orks, or khorne berserkers, or assault terminators, or any other dedicated assault unit (unless they have been weakened to impotency) then of course your Tacticals are going to "suck and die". If you have your army's fire base weaken this assault unit sufficiently, and then charge in even 10 tactical marines (in my case that is two 5 man squads each with a Fist) then all of a sudden your Tactical squads wont suck and die!

[greatcrusade08]

Against what? And with what supporting elements? And with what other threats present? I don't deny that it can be helpful, but it's rarely the best option (roughly one and a half S8 unsaveable wounds are nice, but why have a Tactical Squad deliver them?). If it is your best option, it's likely to be a Hail Mary pass ("I need to kill those Plague Marines on that objective or I lose!"), and your points are probably better spent building reliability into your list by other means.

 

Flexibility does not necessarily grant reliability.

 

I think we have to realise that everyone plays differently with different results..

Its the holy trinity again:

*List

*tactics

*luck

 

since i play MEQs mostly, my squads need at least a power weapon, so really the power fist only costs me +10 points for that added flexibility.

I also play very aggressively with my tac squads, if they are close to the enemy then counter charges are also likely.. with the fist it allows me to be a little more cavalier with them

[angry man]

In each case here the Tactical Squads are armed to appropriately support the units they are operating with. The Power Fist is not a "hail mary" item - it's a calculated addition to the abilities of the Squad and the greater army to achieve a purpose.

so you are suggesting that you would send a tactical squad to hunt a MC or a dread? because you gave it a fist? thats not a greater purpose at all. nor is it calcualated (calculating is working out the liklihood of the additional output the fist gives being suffiecient).doing that is as likely going to scrap the whole squad as it is to beat the dread

 

as for character hunting, a competent opponent would have a character that is intended to make combat either in a bubblewrap unit or in a unit that packs a combat punch of its own. they would also engage your fist with models other than the character so you cant instasmash them.

 

AM

[Koremu]

In each case here the Tactical Squads are armed to appropriately support the units they are operating with. The Power Fist is not a "hail mary" item - it's a calculated addition to the abilities of the Squad and the greater army to achieve a purpose.

so you are suggesting that you would send a tactical squad to hunt a MC or a dread? because you gave it a fist? thats not a greater purpose at all. nor is it calcualated (calculating is working out the liklihood of the additional output the fist gives being suffiecient).doing that is as likely going to scrap the whole squad as it is to beat the dread

 

as for character hunting, a competent opponent would have a character that is intended to make combat either in a bubblewrap unit or in a unit that packs a combat punch of its own. they would also engage your fist with models other than the character so you cant instasmash them.

 

AM

No, not using them to "go hunting", but equiping the unit with the capability to be a threat to things it otherwise isn't. Enemy Dreadnoughts, MCs and such are wary of a fist, and a Fist is powerful against a lot of targets. Once you have a Fist in the Tactical Squad, your enemy has to figure their presence and power in terms of his MCs etc. or else pay the penalty.

 

A Perfect example would be the last battle I had against the old 'nids. A Carnifex managed to make it to my lines, but with only 1 wound. The Fist ensured that I took it down, fist round of cambat, only losing 3 Battle Brothers, rather than being stuck in an inevitable grind.

 

It's surprising how often the Tactical Squad has just the right capabilities when it comes to mopping up.

[angry man]

No, not using them to "go hunting", but equiping the unit with the capability to be a threat to things it otherwise isn't. Enemy Dreadnoughts, MCs and such are wary of a fist, and a Fist is powerful against a lot of targets. Once you have a Fist in the Tactical Squad, your enemy has to figure their presence and power in terms of his MCs etc. or else pay the penalty.

a sensible opponent would not send a MC in unsupported. nor would their army consist only of MCs, which means they have a fair supply of things to take down your powerfist weilding tactical squads

 

A Perfect example would be the last battle I had against the old 'nids. A Carnifex managed to make it to my lines, but with only 1 wound. The Fist ensured that I took it down, fist round of cambat, only losing 3 Battle Brothers, rather than being stuck in an inevitable grind.

if you didnt take however many fists, then maybe you could have taken something else, used it to beat the fex before he made your lines and not lost the 3 marines??

 

It's surprising how often the Tactical Squad has just the right capabilities when it comes to mopping up.

and even less suprising how often the purchase of a fist would have been wasted because i played my tacticals as a part of my entire army and in a way that no MCs or dreads were in a position to assualt me

 

AM

[Jackelope King]

Thank you all for the detailed replies.

 

I can understand the mindset that values having the extra option with Tactical Squads. If push comes to shove, you can shove back. But as I've already shown, the value is fairly minimal for 25 points (an average of 1 wound when recieving a charge, 1.5 wounds when delivering the charge, 50% chance of doing something significant to a Dread, 67% chance when delivering the charge on the Dread). If it all goes wrong, I won't deny that it's useful to have a Power Fist around. But I don't see the value of throwing Tactical Marines into risky assaults just to deliver a power fist. And here's why:

 

My Marines are either Mech'd up or they're in my biker list. This gives me some flexibility in deciding where and when engagements will take place. Mech'ing up also means that I have an extra layer of protection against unwanted assaults. Because of this, I'm less likely to find my marines in a situation where they have to recieve a charge. So "Dread/MC insurance" is of less value in a modern mech marines list. Further, the value of assaulting an enemy to "finish it off" is very situational. For nine out of ten members of the squad, they're much better off firing their weapons than charging (they're more likely to hit and ignore armor). Only the Sergeant gets a benefit from charging, and he's only contributing about one and a half solid wounds, while exposing the squad to increased attrition (against basically anything that you'd need a power fist to be effective against, close combat specialists, MCs, and Dreads).

 

So let's run some quick numbers. Let's say our squad is staring down the last Carnifex with its last wound. We need to knock it out this turn, before it can regenerate or charge. Which is the better approach: charge or stand and shoot?

 

8 Rapid-firing Marines with Bolters are expected to shoot 16 times, hit about 10-11 times. They'll only wound on a 6, which means just under 2 wounds, and with a 3+ armor save, the Carnifex will probably weather that bolter fire. Then we'll fire the meltagun, which has about a 56% chance of delivering that last wound, and the multimelta, which also has about a 56% chance of delivering that last wound. Between the metla weaponry and the rapid-firing bolters, the Carnifex only has about a 17% chance of surviving, and there is zero chance of it killing any of your marines. Those odds really aren't bad!

 

Now let's say that we charge instead. Note that before you charge, the carnifex's chance of surviving shooting with bolt pistols and just the meltagun is roughly going to double. So in the other 65% of the time, we'll be forced to charge. Marines are still hitting on a 3+. You've got about a 50/50 shot of dropping the carnifex before we get down to initiative 1 (and our odds of killing it by this point are still lower than spraying and praying... we're not knocking on the door of 70% probability of a kill yet). Then the power fist swings, and that should be the ball game (the fist should deliver about 1.67 wounds, no saves), and we finally overcome the probability of killing the critter with rapid-firing (we're well into the 90%+ kill probability). However, now we're suffering the Carnifex's attacks. It swings 4 times, rerolls all misses (2x slashing talons come base), and wounds on a 2+ (no saves), so he'll probably whack an average of 2.5 marines. Sure, they're just ablative wounds, but our scoring unit's strength has just been cut down to 3/4 of where it would've been otherwise.

 

So yes, your odds are slightly better charging with a power fist (especially if the Carnifex has more than one wound left), but you're also significantly increasing the odds of casualties on your side (especially if the Carnifex has more than one wound left :cuss). The odds are also more significantly in favor of charging if you had to move that turn, so you can't fire your heavy weapon. It's a trade-off, but shooting has fewer risks associated and assaulting with a fist only increases in effectiveness from 80-ish percent to 90-ish percent at a cost of +25 points.

 

Same as against Dreadnoughts. Taking a meltagun and multimelta shot at 12" will have about a 1 in 3 chance of killing the Dread in one go (odds reach about 46% if you're within 6"). Charging means you only have about a 23% chance of getting the kill with a meltagun, and Krak Grenades can only glance (no chance of killing, and even then, you're only looking at 1.5 glances). Your power fist is the only way to increase your odds, and with 3 swings, your odds of destroying the Dread increase to a mighty 40%, and in doing so, you've opened yourself up to a little under 1.5 dead Marines in exchange. So standing your ground in shooting gives you slightly better odds with minimal risk.

 

This basic rule holds up across the whole spectrum of possible challenges, until you start getting down to real scrubs, at which point the extra wound and a half a Fist will do is likely to get lost among all the wounds you'd do from charging anyway. Yeah, it's pure mathhammer, and not a sure thing by a long-shot, but playing the odds matters.

[Koremu]

No, not using them to "go hunting", but equiping the unit with the capability to be a threat to things it otherwise isn't. Enemy Dreadnoughts, MCs and such are wary of a fist, and a Fist is powerful against a lot of targets. Once you have a Fist in the Tactical Squad, your enemy has to figure their presence and power in terms of his MCs etc. or else pay the penalty.

a sensible opponent would not send a MC in unsupported. nor would their army consist only of MCs, which means they have a fair supply of things to take down your powerfist weilding tactical squads

 

A Perfect example would be the last battle I had against the old 'nids. A Carnifex managed to make it to my lines, but with only 1 wound. The Fist ensured that I took it down, fist round of cambat, only losing 3 Battle Brothers, rather than being stuck in an inevitable grind.

if you didnt take however many fists, then maybe you could have taken something else, used it to beat the fex before he made your lines and not lost the 3 marines??

 

It's surprising how often the Tactical Squad has just the right capabilities when it comes to mopping up.

and even less suprising how often the purchase of a fist would have been wasted because i played my tacticals as a part of my entire army and in a way that no MCs or dreads were in a position to assualt me

 

AM

 

I am amazed at your capability to have your plan survive contact with the enemy. Me, I'll keep planning for multiple eventualities.

[angry man]

Thank you all for the detailed replies.

ha, i could have sworn i was the original poster?? :)

 

I am amazed at your capability to have your plan survive contact with the enemy. Me, I'll keep planning for multiple eventualities.

i am amazed at your capability to unnecessarily be sarcastic. also i am amazed at what appears to be your lack of faith in anything in your list doing its job. and your lack of understanding that there tactical squads have a weakness.

 

the way i see it, 1 powerfist generates 2 attacks a turn. now these 2 attacks are not sufficient in the majority of instances to down a stray dread/MC. the fist is not a reliable end to that mean. by my reckoning, a tactical squad, with or without a fist cannot reliably take a dread in cc, nor can it down a MC with 3+ wounds. (1 0r 2 maybe, but that fist isnt going to make enough of a difference then IMO).

 

because of this, i recognise this is the tactical squads weakness. there i said it - i think tacticals have a weakness.

 

because of this, i plan for other areas of my army to cover the said weakness - the tacticals themselves have a MM. there are a couple of speeders buzzing around with MM - i feel they are sufficient ot take care of the dreads (yes, before you say it, they might get shot down, but with the recommended amount of terrain on a board there should be more than enough cover. as for MC, sheer weight of fire tends to do the trick. basic preds and reifleman dreads of my own put out plenty of high strength shot a turn.

 

the most important thing to remember is that the said threats to a tactical sqd are slow and combined with manouverability, i feel you have enough turns to deal the appropriate damage

 

AM

[Koremu]

the way i see it, 1 powerfist generates 2 attacks a turn. now these 2 attacks are not sufficient in the majority of instances to down a stray dread/MC.

In my experience, you're dead wrong about that.

[greatcrusade08]

yeah the extra bodies give you a few turns against MC's and dreads, in my experience a tac squad CAN down an MC or dread just not in one turn.

[Jackelope King]

Thank you all for the detailed replies.

ha, i could have sworn i was the original poster?? :P

I drink your milkshake! :P

the way i see it, 1 powerfist generates 2 attacks a turn. now these 2 attacks are not sufficient in the majority of instances to down a stray dread/MC.

In my experience, you're dead wrong about that.

The math doesn't lie. The dread has a 60% survival rate, even when you charge and fire a meltagun first. And even if you charge first, you risk about a Marine and a half every player's turn (until you destroy the DCCW). Dead Marines don't score. This is a game played with dice: if you don't play the odds, you do so to your own disadvantage.

[Koremu]

What happens if it's a wounded Dread with only one arm? Or a fire support dread that you want locked down?

 

I rarely use Tacticals as Primary killer units. The Power Fist enables them to clean up big stuff.

 

All the talk about solo engagement is missing the point IMO.

 

Tactical Squad with Power Fist can kill things that a Tactical Squad sans Power Fist can't.

[Jackelope King]

Tactical Squad with Power Fist can kill things that a Tactical Squad sans Power Fist can't.

As I already pointed out, no, things are pretty much a wash, with shooting being as good with less risk.

[Koremu]

Tactical Squad with Power Fist can kill things that a Tactical Squad sans Power Fist can't.

As I already pointed out, no, things are pretty much a wash, with shooting being as good with less risk.

Your example assumes the presence of a Melta Gun.

 

*shrug*

 

By all means do things how you wish, I'm just going to keep shooting down your poor reasoning.

 

Tactical Squads are, by definition, all right at dealing with almost anything. Power Fists are a threat to everything in the game. The synergy is obvious.

 

I get very bored of the type of Marine player who has pre-decided that Tacticals are worthless, and so either reserves, rhino camps or hides them for the whole game and is surprised when they do nothing.

 

Tactical Squads make up roughly one-third of a Marine army list, and used well they are worth every single point. A Fist is a very worthwhile addition to a Squad, in many many situations, because of the threat multiplication it represents.

 

If you think Troops choices are worthless, the 'Nid codex is over thataway ~~~>

[Brother-Chaplain Gaius]

Tactical Squad with Power Fist can kill things that a Tactical Squad sans Power Fist can't.

As I already pointed out, no, things are pretty much a wash, with shooting being as good with less risk.

 

 

somebody did the math already guy, you have a better chance of creating more wounds with a powerfist than shooting. You wouldn't rapid fire a dreadnought or a MC or a IC because you'd be wasting your time. You'd assault them and strike with 3 PF attacks. it works better.

 

and I have yet to play a game were everything went according to how I wanted it to, we don't live in a perfect world afterall. If we did I wouldn't need powerfists! until then I'm taking them!

[Jackelope King]

Your example assumes the presence of a Melta Gun.

And that's the weapon my tactical squads almost always take (that or a flamer).

 

By all means do things how you wish, I'm just going to keep shooting down your poor reasoning.

And you have not presented anything other than annecodtal evidence. Sample size of one.

 

Tactical Squads are, by definition, all right at dealing with almost anything. Power Fists are a threat to everything in the game. The synergy is obvious.

 

I get very bored of the type of Marine player who has pre-decided that Tacticals are worthless, and so either reserves, rhino camps or hides them for the whole game and is surprised when they do nothing.

 

Tactical Squads make up roughly one-third of a Marine army list, and used well they are worth every single point. A Fist is a very worthwhile addition to a Squad, in many many situations, because of the threat multiplication it represents.

 

If you think Troops choices are worthless, the 'Nid codex is over thataway ~~~>

So because I don't charge Tacticals into combat where odds are they'll gain a minimal return at increased risk, I should play a different army? Come on, man. That's condescending and you know it.

[Brother-Chaplain Gaius]

3 PF attacks have a better chance at destroying armor than a meltagun. they're both the same range. and fists strike rear armor!

[Jackelope King]

somebody did the math already guy, you have a better chance of creating more wounds with a powerfist than shooting. You wouldn't rapid fire a dreadnought or a MC or a IC because you'd be wasting your time. You'd assault them and strike with 3 PF attacks. it works better.

That someone was me. And you're half-wrong. You have better odds of shooting at the dread with a meltagun and multimelta than you do charging. And with an MC, you increase your odds of killing off a wounded Carnifex by only about 10% (from 80-ish percent to 90-ish percent) when you charge with a power fist, in exchange for sacrificing about a quarter of your squad.

 

and I have yet to play a game were everything went according to how I wanted it to, we don't live in a perfect world afterall. If we did I wouldn't need powerfists! until then I'm taking them!

No, we don't live in a perfect world. But rather than trying to prepare every squad for every contingency, it's better to use those points to stack the odds in your favor elsewhere.

 

3 PF attacks have a better chance at destroying armor than a meltagun. they're both the same range. and fists strike rear armor!

Against a non-dread, three attacks at S8 against rear armor are very nice. But you have the trade-off of not being able to use the squad's multi-melta. Ask orks how well relying on a power fist/klaw works for your anti-tank, though. There's a reason my ork-playing buddy did a very bizarre happy-dance when the deffrolla got FAQ'd.

 

Plus, don't discount the value of AP1, increasing your odds of killing the vehicle quite nicely. The melta rule is also nice when you can afford to get close, giving you 2d6 for penetration.